Dual cannons vs heavy duals.

miirik

On every ship that i put on cannons i always put on dual heavy cannons, I don't even think about regular dual cannons. I'm looking at the lukari dual cannons and they are not heavy, I wouldn't mind doing a lukari cannon build but it got me thinking is there any reason to go regular dual cannons ever?

it's for my t6 plesh tral

tyler002

I don't think there's much real difference besides regular Dual Cannons doing less damage per shot, but recharging and firing faster.

asuran14

Yeah I believe that dual heavies with their innate critical severity are much more of a spike based weapon, while the dual cannons I believe are a much more sustain steady damage weapon type. It Would be nice if they added more variety to the dual cannons to make them more unique compared to dual heavies an give them more of a niche they fill.

I always thought that dual cannons should have a slightly wider firing arc (something like 55-65 degrees), since that would make them a more effective an appealing choice to use on slower turning dual cannon capable ships without needing to sacrifice console slots to buff turn rate.

rattler2

I kinda like having at least one dual cannon on a ship that runs cannons sometimes because duals fire from different hardpoints than dual heavies. For example the Mat'ha Raptor. Duals fire from the nose while Dual Heavies fire from the struts.

tom61sto

Duals are really only better than dual heavies if you have something that procs per-hit instead of per-cycle. A lot of stuff was pulled off being per-hit in S13, so not much reason ATM. Omega Force two-set 'Tetryon Glider' shield drain is still per-hit AFAIK, and the Dranuur Fleet weapons are per-hit on their heal procs currently too.

rattler2

*flies around with both dual and dual heavies*

davefenestrator

rattler2 wrote: »

I kinda like having at least one dual cannon on a ship that runs cannons sometimes because duals fire from different hardpoints than dual heavies. For example the Mat'ha Raptor. Duals fire from the nose while Dual Heavies fire from the struts.

That's good to know, a Mat'ha cannon build is a fun ship to fly and improving the visuals would be icing on the cake.

rattler2

Yup. Many ships actually have seperate hardpoints for both duals and dual heavies.

rattler2

Mechanically... they still do damage.
*shrug*

disqord

I'm gonna point out that the only time anything ever procced more than once per cycle was with Beams: Fire at Will. The devs have gone on record to state that nothing else ever actually had that bug.

asuran14

Yeah it is terrible that now really there is very little difference between dual and dual heavy cannons, and that do not have more defined niches that they are better in then the other. I mean when you look at the beam types beam banks and arrays don't really overlap much if at all with each other. Yet you have cannons that have an overlap between all three types, but with only two niches they fill, which are if the ship is capable of using dual cannons or not an the much wider arc of the single cannons.

reemus

miirik wrote: »

On every ship that i put on cannons i always put on dual heavy cannons, I don't even think about regular dual cannons. I'm looking at the lukari dual cannons and they are not heavy, I wouldn't mind doing a lukari cannon build but it got me thinking is there any reason to go regular dual cannons ever?

it's for my t6 plesh tral

I run the full Lukari set as a cannon build on my NX refit. Very nice and with fleet consoles they are upwards of around 1,000dmg per at MK XIV Very Rare... about 400 less per dual heavy but the extra second faster firing makes up for that.

miirik

reemus#2383 wrote: »

miirik wrote: »

On every ship that i put on cannons i always put on dual heavy cannons, I don't even think about regular dual cannons. I'm looking at the lukari dual cannons and they are not heavy, I wouldn't mind doing a lukari cannon build but it got me thinking is there any reason to go regular dual cannons ever?

it's for my t6 plesh tral

I run the full Lukari set as a cannon build on my NX refit. Very nice and with fleet consoles they are upwards of around 1,000dmg per at MK XIV Very Rare... about 400 less per dual heavy but the extra second faster firing makes up for that.

so do you run full dual cannons or DHCs with the lukari DC?

darkbladejk

The major differences between dual heavies and dual cannons are how they deal their damage. Dual cannons fire more bolts and recharge a little bit faster, but they deal less damage per shot. Dual heavies don't fire as fast but deal more damage per bolt and take a little bit longer to recharge. Dual heavies draw 12 power per weapon to fire vs dual cannons which only draw 10 power per weapon to fire. There is not right or wrong answer as to which one is the best as you can make arguments for either one. As for which one you personally should use, well that depends on the build. As a couple of others have pointed out, if you're using effects that have a chance to proc on each hit, then you might want to consider basic dual cannons, as they give you more hits, thus more chances at procs. If you value more spike damage, I've gotten better mileage out of the dual heavies than basic duals in that department. If you don't care about procs and just want to shoot something with cannons, then pick whichever you think you like best or looks cooler.

As for my personal take I usually stick dual heavies just because that's what I always was able to get my hands on them easier than basic duals for some reason. Unless I'm going for something a bit more specific build wise that's just me. As for the power draw argument it's certainly one that can be made in favor dual cannons. Assuming a 5 forward weapon layout with all 5 being cannons, that's 10 extra power you would have to account for when using dual heavies, so the argument has some merit. In my opinion however with as many power generation effects as we have in game, be they permanent or temporary, that 10 additional power shouldn't be making or breaking your build. Folks have their preferences however and that's mine anyways.

leemwatson

Most weapons display 2 values, Damage per hit, and DPS. This should also factor in your choice as well as power usage and arc.

natureyouscary

The Dps is the exact same, Duals have a 1 sec faster recharge but its not significant...Dual heavies I believe are the only type that has a free 10% severity, I could be mistaken and it may be on both. Personally if youre using cannons youre goin for spike dmg so Heavies all the way. Plus the energy is larger when fired and thats a plus for me

bossheisenberg

Dual cannons were far superior before season 13 when Cryptic butchered abilities like DEM and the plasma nullifier consoles. Dual cannons fired faster and procced more often, so they came out ahead of DHCs.

These days a lot of people are using single cannons in pvp, I believe due to the rise in speed necessitating a wider firing arc.

trillbuffet

Long long long long time ago the difference was that the DHC's were a very very slow burst type damage so it was like DHC, 2 DC's and a torpedo(or 3rd Dual Cannon). is what a lot of escorts had up front until changes made the dual cannons obsolete. What would be interesting Is adding something to dual cannons and in some ships possibly adding a slot just for them and then do something similar with single cannons but making them usable in the rear for better strafing strategies. As for example the bops though they will most likely always use DHC's because its a hit and run ship which is the use for raiders(Hoping for the return of the heavy bop one day).

dracounguis

give dual cannons a bit wider arc, maybe 90?, and then people will take them. Cause that's the trade off in STO, more damage less arc, less damage more arc.

asuran14

I would rather see them add a new turret type weapon that would be kinda like the omni-arrays, such as heavy or dual turret concepts, since single cannons can feel a bit underwhelming with having to take turrets. I mean we already have some heavy turrets in the game, and so making a crafted version like we have with omni arrays would be nice, and having the same rule of one crafted an one rep/mission/lockbox heavy turret would work. Also such a fact might make using a turret/single-cannon type builds more appealing outside of pvp on non-dual cannon capable ships compared to beam arrays an banks.

vetteguy904

I fly with the defiant quad 2 heavies and a torpedo with 30 beams in the back plemty fo tac slots for a BOL for shield TS cause they are fun and stipp run CSV and rapid fire.

baudl

bossheisenberg wrote: »

Dual cannons were far superior before season 13 when Cryptic butchered abilities like DEM and the plasma nullifier consoles. Dual cannons fired faster and procced more often, so they came out ahead of DHCs.

never ever was that the case...better energy return and crtD bonus made sure that DHC were always slightly better. DEM is actually garbage, unless you have the doff...

pottsey5g

When you speed up your weapon cycle fire rate I like to pick the slowest weapon as knocking lets say 1 second of a weapon feels better then knocking 0.1 seconds off. I don't remember the difference between DHC and DC but I always pick the slowest when using cycle fire rate speed.

Not done it recently but it used to be fun to stack up 5% power recharge to make slow weapons fire fast. Then stack up haste.

bossheisenberg

baudl wrote: »

bossheisenberg wrote: »

Dual cannons were far superior before season 13 when Cryptic butchered abilities like DEM and the plasma nullifier consoles. Dual cannons fired faster and procced more often, so they came out ahead of DHCs.

never ever was that the case...better energy return and crtD bonus made sure that DHC were always slightly better. DEM is actually garbage, unless you have the doff...

As napalm said, wrong. DEM was nerfed so it wasn't total garbage, but it is now. Some of the best cannon builds used DEM as it procced per shot. DHCs were king before all of the firing cycle haste stuff started creeping into the game, making dualies better as they fired faster and procced various abilities more often, especially the plasma console.

baudl

No, DEM was garbage from 2010 onwards...got good due to doff, still kind of is, unless you have other stuff in that slot that is better.

coldnapalm wrote: »

baudl wrote: »

bossheisenberg wrote: »

Dual cannons were far superior before season 13 when Cryptic butchered abilities like DEM and the plasma nullifier consoles. Dual cannons fired faster and procced more often, so they came out ahead of DHCs.

never ever was that the case...better energy return and crtD bonus made sure that DHC were always slightly better. DEM is actually garbage, unless you have the doff...

Bizz...wrong again. The plasma proc on the embassy consoles made dual cannons better than DHC...especially on ships that had a lot of sci consoles. One of the old records was done using cannons on a 5 sci console slots. That is how powerful these buggers were. DEM...yeah that was and is garbage...so no argument on that aspect. But having things trigger per shot definately make it so SOME builds...especially sci console heavy energy weapon builds did better with dual cannons over dual heavies.

bossheisenberg wrote: »

baudl wrote: »

bossheisenberg wrote: »

Dual cannons were far superior before season 13 when Cryptic butchered abilities like DEM and the plasma nullifier consoles. Dual cannons fired faster and procced more often, so they came out ahead of DHCs.

never ever was that the case...better energy return and crtD bonus made sure that DHC were always slightly better. DEM is actually garbage, unless you have the doff...

As napalm said, wrong. DEM was nerfed so it wasn't total garbage, but it is now. Some of the best cannon builds used DEM as it procced per shot. DHCs were king before all of the firing cycle haste stuff started creeping into the game, making dualies better as they fired faster and procced various abilities more often, especially the plasma console.

but under that consideration, even single cannons outperformed DHC...I mean I understand the point you two are trying to make, but the factor in your example that made dual cannons outperform heavies were the science consoles, not the cannons by themselves. If the proc rate is what does the most damage, then what type of gun you use becomes secondary.
And if I remember correctly, the better choice with the plasma consoles were in fact single cannons, because of proc rate and arc.

pottsey5g

baudl wrote: »

No, DEM was garbage from 2010 onwards...got good due to doff, still kind of is, unless you have other stuff in that slot that is better.

coldnapalm wrote: »

baudl wrote: »

bossheisenberg wrote: »

Dual cannons were far superior before season 13 when Cryptic butchered abilities like DEM and the plasma nullifier consoles. Dual cannons fired faster and procced more often, so they came out ahead of DHCs.

never ever was that the case...better energy return and crtD bonus made sure that DHC were always slightly better. DEM is actually garbage, unless you have the doff...

Bizz...wrong again. The plasma proc on the embassy consoles made dual cannons better than DHC...especially on ships that had a lot of sci consoles. One of the old records was done using cannons on a 5 sci console slots. That is how powerful these buggers were. DEM...yeah that was and is garbage...so no argument on that aspect. But having things trigger per shot definately make it so SOME builds...especially sci console heavy energy weapon builds did better with dual cannons over dual heavies.

bossheisenberg wrote: »

baudl wrote: »

bossheisenberg wrote: »

Dual cannons were far superior before season 13 when Cryptic butchered abilities like DEM and the plasma nullifier consoles. Dual cannons fired faster and procced more often, so they came out ahead of DHCs.

never ever was that the case...better energy return and crtD bonus made sure that DHC were always slightly better. DEM is actually garbage, unless you have the doff...

As napalm said, wrong. DEM was nerfed so it wasn't total garbage, but it is now. Some of the best cannon builds used DEM as it procced per shot. DHCs were king before all of the firing cycle haste stuff started creeping into the game, making dualies better as they fired faster and procced various abilities more often, especially the plasma console.

but under that consideration, even single cannons outperformed DHC...I mean I understand the point you two are trying to make, but the factor in your example that made dual cannons outperform heavies were the science consoles, not the cannons by themselves. If the proc rate is what does the most damage, then what type of gun you use becomes secondary.
And if I remember correctly, the better choice with the plasma consoles were in fact single cannons, because of proc rate and arc.

I am outdated with energy overcapping but performance has or had something to do with that. I know a long time ago I could overcap to 165 weapon energy and DBB never dropped below 120. I believe DHC has some sort of energy advantage even when not overcapped but I haven't been keeping track of energy transfer and energy cap changes.