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[STAR TREK DiSCOVERY] | SEASON TWO |

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  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,727 Arc User
    Red Alert
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    The debacle of the Klingon makeup aside, I wonder how they are going to justify the design aesthetic of the Klingon ships. With them having D7-esque battlecruisers in ENT, but abandoning them for DIS, only to bring them back for TOS onward.
    Non-monoculture. Seriously, there is no in-universe reason for every Klingon house to use the same ship designs.

    There is a MECHANICAL reason;

    Cost.

    The Klingon empire at NO point was portrayed as being post-scarcity. That means to have a fleet (that works) they need to have economy of scale, aka Mass Production. Particularly since the Empire is not shown to be held together by Ideology, but by force of arms. (Which means needing LOTS of ships.)

    The propensity for internal fighting, and the whole need to win, would tend to drive similarity and commonality of design for components, as that which works will be copied or imitated, while that which does NOT work will tend to be abandoned for things that DO work. (because winning is awesome and losing sucks, and thanks to internal instability they don't have teh economic slack to have twenty different, incompatible, starship designs built for the same role.)




    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

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    Advocacy
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,600 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    The debacle of the Klingon makeup aside, I wonder how they are going to justify the design aesthetic of the Klingon ships. With them having D7-esque battlecruisers in ENT, but abandoning them for DIS, only to bring them back for TOS onward.
    Non-monoculture. Seriously, there is no in-universe reason for every Klingon house to use the same ship designs.

    There is a MECHANICAL reason;

    Cost.

    The Klingon empire at NO point was portrayed as being post-scarcity. That means to have a fleet (that works) they need to have economy of scale, aka Mass Production. Particularly since the Empire is not shown to be held together by Ideology, but by force of arms. (Which means needing LOTS of ships.)

    The propensity for internal fighting, and the whole need to win, would tend to drive similarity and commonality of design for components, as that which works will be copied or imitated, while that which does NOT work will tend to be abandoned for things that DO work. (because winning is awesome and losing sucks, and thanks to internal instability they don't have teh economic slack to have twenty different, incompatible, starship designs built for the same role.)

    The Klingon's rugged ship design could be explained by not being a post-scarcity economy. Starfleet ships seem complicated enough that Engineers need a 24th Century PhD to repair. Klingon ships, on the other hand, seems simple enough that they can be fixed by a reasonably skilled technician.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 9,886 Bug Hunter
    Clearly the house that built the ships seen in ENT got the contract for the D7 in DSC S2, probably because their ships were still doing well a century later (considering they actually have a TMP style D7 back in ENT) whereas the overly complex ships like the Cleve or Sech mean those houses had to keep building new ones.

    Keep in mind that, out of the 14 Klingon capital ships seen in DSC, 4 of them are of a very similar design to the D7/ Vor'Cha/ Negh'Var type ships (Qoj, Veqlargh, Qow/Tlhapqa', and bortaS bir/Qatlh classes) and could easily be made by the same house that built the ENT ships.
    The Chargh, Jach, and 'etlh/JejHa' classes aren't particularly overly complex and still look Klingon (though not related to the D7 type ships) and the Sarcophagus is clearly an ancient Negh'Var.

    It's really only the Qugh, Cleave, Sech, Bstlh/Batlh, DaSpu', and the BoP look unlike anything previously seen and 6 out of 14 ships is hardly worth mentioning and could probably have been built by whatever house that Klingon with the face full of jewellery was head of.
    This pillock...
    latest?cb=20171023190926&path-prefix=en
    With the stupid melty ears, but sensibly, clearly with only two nostrils (like all Klingons even in DSC).

    If more ships in DSC had been grey or green then people wouldn't have even noticed the the Qoj (for instance) was a new ship at all.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,727 Arc User
    Red Alert
    starkaos wrote: »
    patrickngo wrote: »
    lordrezeon wrote: »
    The debacle of the Klingon makeup aside, I wonder how they are going to justify the design aesthetic of the Klingon ships. With them having D7-esque battlecruisers in ENT, but abandoning them for DIS, only to bring them back for TOS onward.
    Non-monoculture. Seriously, there is no in-universe reason for every Klingon house to use the same ship designs.

    There is a MECHANICAL reason;

    Cost.

    The Klingon empire at NO point was portrayed as being post-scarcity. That means to have a fleet (that works) they need to have economy of scale, aka Mass Production. Particularly since the Empire is not shown to be held together by Ideology, but by force of arms. (Which means needing LOTS of ships.)

    The propensity for internal fighting, and the whole need to win, would tend to drive similarity and commonality of design for components, as that which works will be copied or imitated, while that which does NOT work will tend to be abandoned for things that DO work. (because winning is awesome and losing sucks, and thanks to internal instability they don't have teh economic slack to have twenty different, incompatible, starship designs built for the same role.)

    The Klingon's rugged ship design could be explained by not being a post-scarcity economy. Starfleet ships seem complicated enough that Engineers need a 24th Century PhD to repair. Klingon ships, on the other hand, seems simple enough that they can be fixed by a reasonably skilled technician.

    Generally, machines built to be maintained by a reasonably skilled technician are better designs than machines that need a Ph.D. to repair-esp. if they fill equivalent roles with a reasonable level of parity.

    The comparison can be shown in working vehicles; a lot of Farmers are switching from John Deere to older designs or other manufacturers, because of Deere's DRM and the need for specialist 'factory' shops to maintain the Deeres. IT's been great for Kubota, CASE, and used dealers. The 'efficiencies' aren't large enough to justify the extra man-hours cost of having to wait for the dealer's mechanic.

    and that's in the civilian world.

    In terms of systems like Starships, the more people who can do basic maintenance and PM reliably, the better your odds of coming home from poking your nose where it might get shot.

    this is actually the 'basis' of "Mil-Spec". Mil-spec doesn't mean "Moar Powahful", it means "Easier to keep going."

    most purpose-built military hardware is actually pretty poor compared to civilian counterparts in terms of fuel economy, efficiency, or power, but what it has, is enough performance, while being relatively simple to repair and operate. (seriously, a Jeep Wagoneer is nearly as good off-road as a Humvee, but costs about a tenth as much, gets better fuel mileage, and is more comfortable to sit in, but the Humvee is easier to fix if equal access is magically available for repair parts).

    A Genius makes the complex simple enough the layman can grasp it and do something with the information, the educated idiot takes something a layman can grasp and makes it so complicated only a doctorate can do anything with it.
    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,618 Arc User
    Strategema
    Mary Chieffo on the season 2 Klingon redesign.
    https://comicbook.com/startrek/2018/10/14/star-trek-discovery-klingon-hair-dominion-war/
    "Two ways to view the world, so similar at times / Two ways to rule the world, to justify their crimes / By Kings and Queens young men are sent to die in war / Their propaganda speaks those words been heard before"
    — Sabaton, "A Lifetime of War"
    9MUythl.png
    (Vaporware thanks to Foundry shutdown. Thanks a frakking bunch, Cryptic.)
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 30,116 Arc User
    okay, so it isn't a TERRIBLE explanation, but it still feels hinky​​
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,497 Arc User
    Also I'd like to point out that the D7 in Enterprise is an anomaly, and an actual real world recongnized continuity error. Originally there were plans to make an original design, the D4.

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/D4_class_(concept)

    THIS was what they wanted to have, but...
    Yet, the model was overruled, the producers having stated as reason for doing so that "its windows weren't prominent enough", a decision Eaves was very unhappy with. [3] [4] Due to time constraints, it was decided to reuse the Deep Space Nine K't'inga-class CGI model.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,727 Arc User
    Red Alert
    okay, so it isn't a TERRIBLE explanation, but it still feels hinky​​

    isn't that like, the fifth or sixth 'explanation' someone from the show has come up with?

    I suspect they're still tossing those at the wall to see what might stick.
    KDF: Not supported by Cryptic, because according to them, we're not 'Real' Star Trek fans.

    Well, TRIBBLE them, I'll play KDF anyway.

    "We are the Federation. Resistance is futile, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."-Cryptic Studios

    Advocacy
    simple logic process:

    The body is filled with so much blood...It's always more than you think!! -Dr. Dinosaur

  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 9,886 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Also I'd like to point out that the D7 in Enterprise is an anomaly, and an actual real world recongnized continuity error. Originally there were plans to make an original design, the D4.

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/D4_class_(concept)

    THIS was what they wanted to have, but...
    Yet, the model was overruled, the producers having stated as reason for doing so that "its windows weren't prominent enough", a decision Eaves was very unhappy with. [3] [4] Due to time constraints, it was decided to reuse the Deep Space Nine K't'inga-class CGI model.

    However it's featured prominently in the episode which makes it canon. Mind bogglingly stupid continuity wise and a known error or not.
    starswordc wrote: »

    Oh. Another actor making their own headcanon up. It's fine. I'll ignore it along with whichever BtS person had the head caon about bald Klingons and sense organs and stick to canon which shows Klingons are like Humans and individuals can chose to, or naturally do go bald.

    The only reason I care if they have hair or not is to cover those melted ears.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,354 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Oh. Another actor making their own headcanon up. It's fine. I'll ignore it along with whichever BtS person had the head canon about bald Klingons and sense organs and stick to canon which shows Klingons are like Humans and individuals can chose to, or naturally do go bald.​​
    That seems to be Brian Fuller, if Glenn Hetrick and Neville Page are to be believed:
    Page and Hetrick, with former executive producer Bryan Fuller, imagined biological reasons for the Klingons’ appearance, with bony, protruding foreheads — especially among males — explained as the result of head-butting; and bald heads, arrayed with ridges and a long line of python-like sensory pits running from forehead down the back of the head, thought of as one large sensory organ.

    “That was born out of Bryan saying he wanted them to be able to see, quite literally, behind themselves,” says Page
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2017/09/25/klingons-get-expert-makeover-star-trek-discovery/689408001/

    Mary Chieffo also spoke about the "head sensors":
    Obviously the hair was the biggest thing people noticed, or the lack thereof. And I will attest to the fact there is a reason my ridge goes back the way it does. There are sensors and pheromones…There is a whole reasoning behind it that is adhering to what has always been true in Klingon canon…So I deeply believe we are in line with what has come before but is also adding a new kind of nuance.
    https://trekmovie.com/2017/08/02/stlv17-actors-discuss-different-klingon-houses-in-star-trek-discovery-first-image-of-kol-revealed/
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,354 Arc User
    As I was re-posting the "Pheremone Head Sensor-thing" articles, I came across some choice quotes from former clueless showrunner, Aaron Harberts, leading up to season one of Star Trek: Discovery. Having endured this fellow's various kernels of wisdom when doing research, I feel compelled to inflict them on the rest of you. I particularly like his klingon-oriented comments.
    One of the things he really, really wanted to do was shake up the design of the Klingons. It was important that … they not be the thugs of the universe, that they be sexy and vital and different from what had come before.
    https://www.pe.com/2017/09/19/yes-klingons-are-getting-sexy-makeover-for-new-star-trek-discovery-series/
    The last thing we want to do is feel like we came into somebody else's house and took the plates out and moved them somewhere else. You want to make sure that you feel like you're taking good care of the show, and that you're respecting canon, but what's been fun about it is every time you bump up against a limitation, it's fun to be able to sometimes take it head on and say, "We're going to twist that, but we're going to come back around and land it in a way where the audience can say, 'OK, they actually did wedge of piece of Aaron's storytelling now into what I know.'"

    We lean on holograms a lot, actually, instead of just going to the viewscreen. Just slightly different ways of making it feel a little more contemporary. But I don't think it's so in your face that you're going to say, "Wait, hold on a second." It was our plan to just sort of have a seamless integration.

    Mainly, when you cut away to Klingons (in previous Treks), they're screaming "Qapla!" and firing torpedoes. (And on Discovery) you're going to find a race of people who have their own philosophy
    http://www.startrek.com/article/interview-discovery-showrunner-aaron-harberts
    The Klingons are going to help us really look at certain sides of ourselves and our country. Isolationism is a big theme. Racial purity is a big theme. The Klingons are not the enemy, but they do have a different view on things.

    North Korea is in our thoughts as we finish the series. What began as a commentary on our own divided nation — in terms of Trump supporters and non-Trump supporters — has blown out to North Korea and how we’re right on the brink. [The U.S. is] actually right at the place where Starfleet finds itself in episode one and we couldn’t have anticipated that happening. But how do you end conflict when both sides have such strong opinions?
    https://ew.com/tv/2017/09/07/star-trek-discovery-trump-political-divide/
    We dig as much into the Klingons as we do in Starfleet in a lot of ways.
    https://www.vox.com/fall-tv/2017/9/22/16338658/star-trek-discovery-cbs-preview-showrunners-anthony-rapp
    The audience just has to be patient, because typically, if it seems like we’re violating canon, we know. We know that people might have knee-jerk reactions to things. But we have a plan.
    https://slate.com/culture/2017/09/how-shows-like-star-trek-discovery-stick-to-canon.html
    "Rolling wrote:
    The Trump phenomenon was “front and center in our minds,” Harberts admits when talking about the post-Fuller production process. “We felt like it would be interesting to really look at what’s going on in the United States.” He mentions that among the show’s antagonists are an ultra-religious and violent Klingon faction whose rallying cry – “Remain Klingon” – is intentionally reminiscent of “Make America Great Again.”

    “I think [viewers] instantly just think prestige drama – it’s dystopian, dark, antihero, grim, no hope at all,” Harberts says. “It couldn’t be further from the truth. This show is hopeful. The characters are always putting their best foot forward. To me, I just think we’ve had enough of the dystopian, dark science fiction.
    https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/inside-star-trek-discovery-the-franchises-answer-to-the-trump-era-201726/
    At the end of the day, what’s the most important thing is the ideals of Starfleet, the ideas of the Federation, and it’s a dark period in the Federation’s history where they have to win a war, but they also have to stay true to themselves. It’s been a really fun balance in terms of the character stories about who’s on board with that? Who’s not? How can we resolve conflict and still maintain our morals, and our ethics, and our ideals?

    So now we’re telling the story of an individual who thought she knew who she was, thought she knew where she was going, and she’s not that fully formed person anymore. She’s having an existential crisis. She’s having an identity crisis. A human raised on Vulcan, raised by Sarek to be humanity’s best hope, and suddenly, she finds herself at a place where she has no idea who she is. What’s really cool for us is to take the audience on a really relatable journey of self-discovery.
    https://www.cbr.com/star-trek-discovery-aaron-harberts-interview/

    Anyways, Harberts continuously refers to "violating continuity/canon/lore NOW, but explaining it at some point in the future". I honestly don't know what the heck he is talking about. I'm not the biggest continuity/canon/lore scholar, so maybe someone could point it out. The have already admitted that they are arbitrarily changing the visuals (and if you don't like it, you can GTFO) so what is Harberts talking about? Was there some continuity/canon/lore violation that was later explained?
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,618 Arc User
    Strategema
    I think it's pretty much established that Aaron Harberts talks out of his rear end a lot when it comes to the series (mainly to fail hilariously at obfuscating plot twists). I don't pay him much attention.
    "Two ways to view the world, so similar at times / Two ways to rule the world, to justify their crimes / By Kings and Queens young men are sent to die in war / Their propaganda speaks those words been heard before"
    — Sabaton, "A Lifetime of War"
    9MUythl.png
    (Vaporware thanks to Foundry shutdown. Thanks a frakking bunch, Cryptic.)
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,354 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    I think it's pretty much established that Aaron Harberts talks out of his rear end a lot when it comes to the series (mainly to fail hilariously at obfuscating plot twists). I don't pay him much attention.
    I can respect that position.

    I just wanted to know, "What is he referring to, in this instance?"
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,618 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    Strategema
    redvenge wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    I think it's pretty much established that Aaron Harberts talks out of his rear end a lot when it comes to the series (mainly to fail hilariously at obfuscating plot twists). I don't pay him much attention.
    I can respect that position.

    I just wanted to know, "What is he referring to, in this instance?"

    Frankly, I think that, just like Berman and Braga before him, he misjudged how much Trekkies care about continuity and is trying to do damage control, and is about as bad at it as he is at aforementioned obfuscation of plot twists. ;)

    (Credit where it's due, at least he's trying to do damage control instead of doubling down...)
    "Two ways to view the world, so similar at times / Two ways to rule the world, to justify their crimes / By Kings and Queens young men are sent to die in war / Their propaganda speaks those words been heard before"
    — Sabaton, "A Lifetime of War"
    9MUythl.png
    (Vaporware thanks to Foundry shutdown. Thanks a frakking bunch, Cryptic.)
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,354 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    Frankly, I think that, just like Berman and Braga before him, he misjudged how much Trekkies care about continuity and is trying to do damage control, and is about as bad at it as he is at aforementioned obfuscation of plot twists. ;)

    (Credit where it's due, at least he's trying to do damage control instead of doubling down...)
    Is he talking about the visual differences between Star Trek: Discovery and the original series? Is it the "light sensitivity" of the mirror terrans? Harry Mudd having a time travel device? The Gorn skeleton? The Cardassian Vole? The plant from the gamma quadrant?

    I honestly have no idea what he is referring to. It's like he needed to say something during the interview and so words just came out of his mouth (something he does often).
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,600 Arc User
    redvenge wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    Frankly, I think that, just like Berman and Braga before him, he misjudged how much Trekkies care about continuity and is trying to do damage control, and is about as bad at it as he is at aforementioned obfuscation of plot twists. ;)

    (Credit where it's due, at least he's trying to do damage control instead of doubling down...)
    Is he talking about the visual differences between Star Trek: Discovery and the original series? Is it the "light sensitivity" of the mirror terrans? Harry Mudd having a time travel device? The Gorn skeleton? The Cardassian Vole? The plant from the gamma quadrant?

    I honestly have no idea what he is referring to. It's like he needed to say something during the interview and so words just came out of his mouth (something he does often).

    Which is why I don't trust interviews. Otherwise the catgirls in Into Darkness are Caitians and not some new alien race.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 9,587 Arc User
    > @starkaos said:
    > redvenge wrote: »
    >
    > starswordc wrote: »
    >
    > Frankly, I think that, just like Berman and Braga before him, he misjudged how much Trekkies care about continuity and is trying to do damage control, and is about as bad at it as he is at aforementioned obfuscation of plot twists. ;)
    >
    > (Credit where it's due, at least he's trying to do damage control instead of doubling down...)
    >
    >
    >
    > Is he talking about the visual differences between Star Trek: Discovery and the original series? Is it the "light sensitivity" of the mirror terrans? Harry Mudd having a time travel device? The Gorn skeleton? The Cardassian Vole? The plant from the gamma quadrant?
    >
    > I honestly have no idea what he is referring to. It's like he needed to say something during the interview and so words just came out of his mouth (something he does often).
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Which is why I don't trust interviews. Otherwise the catgirls in Into Darkness are Caitians and not some new alien race.

    There are no cat girls in into darkness. Nothing about them is remotely "cat like" save the tail, which is more primate than anything. Or you go with the nonsense of "cat = femininity"
    2r2u1s2.jpg
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 9,886 Bug Hunter
    angrytarg wrote: »
    There are no cat girls in into darkness. Nothing about them is remotely "cat like" save the tail, which is more primate than anything. Or you go with the nonsense of "cat = femininity"

    Sooo, you're trying to tell me that not all cats are female? Next you'll be trying to tell me all dogs aren't male.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,125 Arc User
    I am really looking forward to Anson Mount as Christopher Pike. And Spock's voice. :)
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 46,497 Arc User
    Anson Mount does look like the ORIGINAL actor who played Pike. And I am liking the lighter tone Season 2 seems to be projecting.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,600 Arc User
    So Saru comes from a pre-Warp civilization. It does raise the question about how reasonable the Warp Drive requirement is to join the Federation. Not all alien races will develop FTL travel even if they are a highly advanced civilization. Denying a civilization from joining the Federation because they don't create their own FTL ship seems like discrimination.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,263 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    So Saru comes from a pre-Warp civilization. It does raise the question about how reasonable the Warp Drive requirement is to join the Federation. Not all alien races will develop FTL travel even if they are a highly advanced civilization. Denying a civilization from joining the Federation because they don't create their own FTL ship seems like discrimination.

    Also, to be fair, TOS and early TNG flagrantly defied the Prime Directive on multiple occasions.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    Is there an actual rule stating only Warp capable societies can be admitted into the Federation? I look at the TOS episode “Errand of Mercy” and they were ready to admit Organia even though they had no technology.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 10,600 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Is there an actual rule stating only Warp capable societies can be admitted into the Federation? I look at the TOS episode “Errand of Mercy” and they were ready to admit Organia even though they had no technology.

    From the First Contact episode (not movie) in TNG:

    PICARD: We've been monitoring your progress toward warp-drive capability. When a society reaches your level of technology and is clearly about to initiate warp travel, we feel the time is right for first contact. We prefer meeting like this, rather than a random confrontation in deep space.

    So it is possible that there might be exceptions to the FTL rule like a civilization being in a strategic location.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,303 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Is there an actual rule stating only Warp capable societies can be admitted into the Federation? I look at the TOS episode “Errand of Mercy” and they were ready to admit Organia even though they had no technology.
    From the First Contact episode (not movie) in TNG:

    PICARD: We've been monitoring your progress toward warp-drive capability. When a society reaches your level of technology and is clearly about to initiate warp travel, we feel the time is right for first contact. We prefer meeting like this, rather than a random confrontation in deep space.

    So it is possible that there might be exceptions to the FTL rule like a civilization being in a strategic location.
    There's a very explicit exception. If another power is mucking with them.
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
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