The Hur'q is but one of many potential antagonists for a Gamma Quadrant story or expansion. And it might be a natural disaster the Dominion want our help with rather than a political or military one.
And I am quite sure that the CEO and the Board of Directors at CBS had an emergency meeting to discuss the fate of the Dominion.
Pahleeze. Stop attributing them the depth of concern about the various and sundry mundane things in this game.
Leslie Moonves: 'Look Al, Steve, the Board just won't go for a 4/4 configuration on that T6 Constitution, they want it a 5/3. It's bad enough you talked us into an End Game Constitution after all these years, but if we're going to have it, it really needs to have a 'Hero' Ship layout... And make it as rare as h*ll.'
Al Rivera: 'Oh, we got just the mechanism to make oodles of money on it and keep the numbers down.'
Leslie: 'Good. We got plenty of other ships in the franchise we want to promote, including some from our upcoming reboot. We just can't have everyone flying those d*mned Constitutions, they'll never buy anything else.'
'And that children is the true story of how the End Game Constitution was born. Now good night and sleep tight.'
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
As we saw back in DS9, one Dominion fleet, with some Cardassian and Breen assistance,
Key word: Assistance. The female Changeling was incredibly annoyed with the Cardassian people because they had failed to get the job done. At one point they had attempted to broker a temporary truce with the Alliance in order to rebuild their forces and the Female Changeling herself negotiated a secret treaty with the Breen because she needed their help. They're tough, but they're not unstoppable.
It is to The Dominion, they do not ask, they take.
Like the time they lost their ship while chasing renegade Jem'Hadar so they killed the crew of the Defiant and stole it for their own use? No wait, they needed Sisko's help so it became a joint Dominion-Federation mission. Or maybe like the time they wanted the Female Changeling back so they assaulted Facility 4028 and took her by force? No wait, they actually bargained for her release because we needed a favor from them.
I guess the Dominion is actually willing to work with or negotiate with people when it suits them.
The problem is that the Hur'q shouldn't be that powerful,
You continue to assume this despite the fact we know absolutely nothing about them. Remember when we went into the Delta Quadrant and Seven of Nine said Starfleet didn't even give the Vaadwaur a second thought because they shouldn't be that powerful? Boy were they surprised.
Speak for yourself. My ship eats Jem'Hadar for breakfast. Personally I believe the Cardassians put up more of a fight than Jem'Hadar do. And yes I know you were talking about plot and not gameplay, even though I was talking about gameplay when I said we'd easily destroy them. The Borg were supposed to be a threat too, but anyone around here can solo multiple Cubes with ease. You can talk about how powerful they're supposed to be in a lore all you want, but if the gameplay doesn't reflect that then it fails to deliver. That's one of the reasons people never liked the Iconian War storyline. They spent so much time building them up, yet despite dialog telling us how bad it is we never really felt like it was as bad as they said it was.
If they talk a big game with the Dominion and the story ends with us winning the day with relative ease yet again, then it doesn't do the Dominion justice.
Which is part of the reason why he wouldn't do it, its pointless.
Uniting the Empire is pointless? After the battle with the House of Torg and the conflict between Martok and J'mpok, they could use a bit of inspiration. No one ever said the feud was completely over.
"Martok has assure me that he will not pursue the Chancellery. This will make a number of people sleep easier... for now, at least.
And if Martok should wish to revisit our old quarrel... I shall be waiting."
Nothing is happening now, but it's left open enough that some internal conflict could arise once more. Martok defeating the Hur'q with the Sword of Kahless on the other hand would be something else.
One thought on the Hur'q as a military tool for T'ket. As somtaawkhar says, having one mad Iconian make them a threat when the Iconians wanted two sectors of control before taking on the Dominion seems unlikely. Unless the Hur'q are another Vaadwaur. Frozen to either contain them and forgotten except for the Klingons and their location has only recently been disturbed. Waking the sleeping dragon.
How could that be possible? The Iconians have observed all of us for thousands of years. Yet know so little about us to prove they are not omniscient. So data can be missed by them. This also means that technically they don't need to use the iconians directly. Perhaps it was an investigation that woke the hur'q and the reason they want so much resources is not just the Dominion. But having to face the similarly strong Hur'q at the same time or right after.
The Fehklari attack on the KDF may have been a probing mission to test their old slaves. But seeing the other players they chose to commit to the home front before venturing back to the alpha and beta quadrants.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
You don't really seem to understand what the word baseless means.
1. The Dominion's power is based on the Iconian's own, in-game, threat analysis of them found in the "Sphere of Influence" mission, as well as their constant dogging of Sela during the messages she send out during the Iconian War, making it clear they do NOT want her to make contact with The Dominion.
That doesn't actually have to mean the Dominion on its own was seen as the most serious threat. It just means it was seen as more effective to deal with the Alpha and Beta Quadrants first and then from there to launch againts the Dominion.
Tey played their little game with the Undine to get the Klingons and Federation each other throats - they probably didn't have a similar avenue to disrupt the Dominion.
My guess would be that they expected the Dominion wouldn't really react to the Klingons and Federation tearing each other apart and the Iconians swooping in to destroy the rest. But attacking the Dominion would put the Iconian threat on the map and likely consolidate the Federation/Klingon alliance, making disrupting it even harder. And worse, it could very well be that such an alliance would intervene in an Iconian/Dominion war (with or without a request by the Dominion), and ensure that they would have to fight all factions at once.
The events in the Delta Quadrant pretty much show that a Klingon/Federation (and Romulan) alliance would be willing to intervene in a quadrant-wide war, as we did quickly form the Delta Alliance to repel the Vaadwaur.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I dare you to try to come up with something else that couldn't easily be shot down.
Anything in this thread can be easily shot down because this is all speculation. Go back in time to any ideas Cryptic developed into content and you can shoot them down too, all the way up until they put the idea into the game. But since this is just for fun:
1) Borg derived Nanites have infested several Dominion worlds and learned about Warp travel. Now a plague of microscopic nanites are spreading out at Warp 2 from their point of origin on the edge of Dominion space, assimilating everything they encounter along the way. The Dominion needs help as various factions steal every starship they can find to flee the plague, sometimes helping it spread as infected ships join the diaspora. The Dominion economy is in shambles as desperate worlds shoot on sight any trader potentially carrying the plague.
Was it an industrial accident? A case of machine evolution? Or was the Dominion involved in research that got out of hand?
2) A thousand years ago the Fek'lri were created by the Hur'q as shock troops. They were copied by the Dominion, who in turn created the Jem Hadar. Unlike the Dominion who instilled fear through military oppression, the Hur'q used psychological warfare. It didn't work on the Dominion, whose troops were designed for disciplined military conquest rather than chaotic waves of rabid assaults. While the Hur'q were trying to subdue their targets via mind games and manipulation, the Dominion crushed their fleets and subsumed the worlds under their control one by one in an orderly advance that withstood repeated waves of suicide swarms of Fek'lr. As the final Hur'q worlds were conquered, their leadership fled into subspace where they hid, nursing their grudge and building up their armies of Fek'lri soldiers while they await an opportunity to strike.
Their attack on the Klingon homeworld was what the military types call a live fire exercise, and they were gauging the relative strength of their modern military. Now they have returned, swarming from their pocket dimension to recapture all that was stolen from them and avenge themselves on the Dominion.
3) Odo has drastically altered the balance of power in The Great Link, causing the Dominion to attempt to become kinder and gentler in their treatment of subject races. Unfortunately, these races have grown accustomed to oppression, and have interpreted the Dominion's restraint as weakness. Incipient civil war in The Dominion threatens unless something can be done. Odo needs the help of a warrior/diplomat with a reputation for getting things done before it all comes loose and the Founders restore order the old fashioned way.
4) T'ket never believed the Dominion was as powerful as their propaganda claimed. While a part of the Whole she was prevented from acting against their wishes, but now she is no longer held back by their cowardice and she can unleash her new, modernized Hur'q fleets just as soon as their new, modernized, Fek'lri crews are hatched. The Dominion discovered their plan, but too late. With defensive plans in the works, the Dominion has come seeking Alliance aid to inflict a surgical strike on their cloning facilities, thus crippling the Hur'q before their plans can be enacted.
I could shoot holes in these ideas all day, but feel free to do so if you like. Debate is supposed to be a collaboration where the ideas of one person get refined by the support and criticism of others. To criticise an idea is to improve it, or demonstrate fatal weaknesses in it leading eventually to better ideas. Critiques of ideas should never be taken personally, and attacks on ideas should never be construed as attacks on the poster.
I offer a lot of ideas and on occasion vigorously defend them, but I don't do it by personalizing my argument. If my phrasing or method of presentation has been taken by anyone as a personal attack, please accept my apologies and my assurance that I did not do so through animosity toward any poster, but through my love of the examination of ideas in an adversarial debate.
Final note: I don't bring my feelings to the forums where they can get hurt. No one has hurt my feelings here since I first logged in. But I have enjoyed the many debates we've had, including this one, and I have enjoyed being exposed to many great concepts and ideas which would never have occurred to me. You guys are great, and I appreciate every poster and every post. Especially the ones with which I disagree.
Anything in this thread can be easily shot down because this is all speculation. Go back in time to any ideas Cryptic developed into content and you can shoot them down too, all the way up until they put the idea into the game. But since this is just for fun:
1) Borg derived Nanites have infested several Dominion worlds and learned about Warp travel. Now a plague of microscopic nanites are spreading out at Warp 2 from their point of origin on the edge of Dominion space, assimilating everything they encounter along the way. The Dominion needs help as various factions steal every starship they can find to flee the plague, sometimes helping it spread as infected ships join the diaspora. The Dominion economy is in shambles as desperate worlds shoot on sight any trader potentially carrying the plague.
Was it an industrial accident? A case of machine evolution? Or was the Dominion involved in research that got out of hand?
3) Odo has drastically altered the balance of power in The Great Link, causing the Dominion to attempt to become kinder and gentler in their treatment of subject races. Unfortunately, these races have grown accustomed to oppression, and have interpreted the Dominion's restraint as weakness. Incipient civil war in The Dominion threatens unless something can be done. Odo needs the help of a warrior/diplomat with a reputation for getting things done before it all comes loose and the Founders restore order the old fashioned way.
1) Borg already have nanites. How is this different? If you say that they can also assimilate founders. Then this is a repeat of a mission in the borg series. Where they learned to assimilate species 8472.
3) The kinder gentler approach brought by one being bringing down the empire. That is the Mirror plot. Mirror Spock was given to try for peace and the Terran Empire got kinder then subjugated. They had to get help from DS9 then became despots again because peace meant slavery. So this one seems a repeat as well.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
what cryptic wants, they don't always get; everything they do has to be vetted by CBS first, and if CBS doesn't want a weak dominion, cryptic has to abide by that whether or not that's what THEY want
Not everything has to get vetted by CBS. Also, CBS does not care how "strong" or "weak" the Dominion is in a 3rd party product.
In another thread, there was supposition about a "Paramount/Bad Robot" license for the JJ-Trek movies. So, I spent a considerable amount of time researching the history of Star Trek licensed products. CBS is incredibly generous with regards to changing the setting (as long as they get their cut). Books and video games are the closest examples of this, as they often wildly deviate from established cannon and even contradict the shows and movies. While CBS reserves the right to withdraw their license, it has to "diminish the Star Trek brand" for them to do so.
Even the new Star Trek: Discovery has very little CBS involvement with the creative process and it's an actual show.
1. The Dominion's power is based on the Iconian's own, in-game, threat analysis of them found in the "Sphere of Influence" mission, as well as their constant dogging of Sela during the messages she send out during the Iconian War, making it clear they do NOT want her to make contact with The Dominion.
The threat analysis that says "it's easier to take out the Alpha/Beta quadrants than the Gamma"? What does that even mean, since the extent of the Iconians power is whatever the writers want it to be. The Iconians only weakness seems to be crippling stupidity and an inability to travel through time. Cure one or the other and the Dominion is in trouble. So is the rest of the Milky Way.
2. You comment about the Borg makes no real sense given that the Borg in-game were as strong as they were in canon. It took the Federation and Klingon Empire, along with the Romulan Republic, and other species like the Cardassians, and the Deferi, coming together to form Task Force Oemga just to be able to drive out them out of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants. The Borg were exactly as strong as they should have been, thus making your other comment about the strength of the Dominion the baseless argument.
The reason we won is because that is how it was written. The writer could have easily said "All their forces were for naught, and Borg assimilated them all. The End." It could have been "and the Hero used his super anti-Borg torpedo and the Borg all died. The End."
See, it's not about all that stuff that was built up for tension. It's about how does the writer want this to end. The point being: you don't know what the writer has in mind. So all your assertions are empty supposition.
3. Actually it was predicted back in Voyager that the Vaadwaur could be a possible future threat to the Federation. And your comment about them being made a powerhouse by the Iconians ignores the fact they only reached that power with all the Iconians behind them, now there is only one. This also ignores the fact that,as stated in-game, the only reason we had problems with the Vaadwuar was because we couldn't send all of our fleets through the Dyson Sphere to deal with them ourselves. They were powerful, but only because we were at a disadvantage of troop movement. And as we see in-game, a fairly ramshackle alliance of other Delta Quadrant races was able to beat them fairly easily.
So the Vaudwaar, who curbstomp the Borg, are defeated by an underwhelming ramshackle force of Delta quadrant cast-offs and you maintain there is no writer fiat there?
This seems a prime example of my point: the outcome will be whatever Cryptic wants it to be.
The idea that the Iconians could make the Hur'q strong enough to make The dominion come ask for help is baseless, and disproven by in-game evidence as that would beg the question as to why, f they could make them that powerful, why didn't they do so for the Vaadwaur.
Because we, the players, have to win. Just that simple. We've faced a number of "serious threats to the Alpha/Beta Quadrants".
Cryptic has made it clear on how they view The Dominion's power, your constant scrambling and lying to try to make them otherwise are not facts.
There are no lies here. Your fanfiction may not line up with what Cryptic has in mind. We'll see how they view the Dominion's power when we get to "Victory is Life". They might hint at it beforehand, but all doubts will be cast aside when we get there.
I would say the best plot hook to bring in the Dominion is a Hobus equivalent in Dominion space. That is exactly the sort of thing T'ket might do.
That is an interesting thought. But it would have to have hit the founder central homeworld. Thus reducing the numbers of the 'gods' to make them desire assistance. Any simply member world and the founders are unlikely to care. They are just solids after all.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
T'ket may not be after conquest. If her goal is revenge, she could do quite a lot of damage, vanish, and reappear rearmed and ready for more mayhem. At that point, all logical arguments about the canon power of the Dominion fly right out the window. With no desire to retain control of territory, she can attack anything anywhere at will.
And how do you find her?
We know the exact number of gates in the Gamma Quadrant, right?
But what if T'ket built gates unconnected with the main grid? Or uses any of half a dozen possible ways to travel undetected?
I believe some in this thread are trying too hard to prove how powerful the Dominion is when no one is actually trying to say they are not. We're trying to say that the Hur'q could be strong and could possibly be a good candidate to challenge that power. That is all. We might know what the Dominion is capable of, but we have absolutely no idea what the Hur'q are capable of, so we can't say with absolute certainty that the Hur'q pose no threat to them. It's true that it was recommended that the Iconians wait and collect resources before engaging the Dominion, but it was also recommended they study the Klingon honor system and consider making them a Servitor race. Did the Iconians make the Klingons a Servitor race? No they did not, because it was only a recommendation and not an actual part of their official plan. We saw recommendations based on study, but we did not see the Iconian's itinerary telling us who and when they will attack.
If the Dominion was too powerful for the Iconians at that particular time, then why did Herald forces come looking for Sela in Dominion space? I highly doubt it was out of desperation, considering Sela's attempts at being heard by Dominion leadership were essentially going nowhere. She complained about getting the run around in her notes to the player, but then suddenly the Iconians show up and come for her in Dominion space? Why? Perhaps it's because the Iconians are not as afraid of the Dominion as some are leading us to believe. It was made clear that the assault on Earth was a win or die situation. Had the Alliance failed, the Iconians would have won. This, to me, indicates that they were not afraid of failure and therefor were not so desperate they attempted to kill Sela in Dominion space in order to prevent them from joining the Alliance. It just wouldn't be logical for them to risk angering the Dominion by entering their space for a woman who poses no real threat to them at the time.
Sphere of Influence would also tell us that the Iconians have infiltrated Dominion space and have successfully kept their gateway network hidden from them. This means that the Iconians are studying the Dominion like they studied the other species of the galaxy, and they're manipulating them enough that they can keep Iconian locations hidden from them. The Iconians were powerful, but they never did attack the Alpha Quadrant straight out. Instead they chose to spy, study and manipulate powers into fighting each other so that they would be weakened when the time came to attack. Can we say for certain that the Iconians haven't attempted something similar in the Gamma Quadrant?
"Couldn't the Founders just order them to surrender? From what I know, the Jem'Hadar have been genetically-engineered to obey them?!"
"The Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar has been somewhat... overstated. Otherwise we never would've had to addict them to the white."
"Sounds like the Dominion isn't quite as stable as you'd like us to believe."
"The Dominion has endured for two thousand years, and will continue to endure long after the Federation has crumbled into dust... but we'll leave that to history."
That's a conversation between Weyoun and Sisko in the episode where they hunted renegade Jem'Hadar who had access to an Iconian gateway. The Iconian's observation of the Dominion in Sphere of Influence is Vandros IV where those Jem'Hadar found the gateway. It would seem to me that the Iconians would be aware of the Dominion's exaggerated stability and would seek to take advantage of it.
It's possible the Iconians could have used their hidden servitors to sabotage Ketracel-white facilities which has caused a break down in Dominion space. This takes me back to my original proposal where the Son'a are supplying the Dominion with Ketracel-white, but we disrupted those operations when we broke Martok out of prison. The Son'a Commander there threatens us and says they are still friends with the Dominion and we shouldn't anger them. Perhaps this was a set up for the Dominion being a future antagonist, but I highly doubt us picking on the Son'a is reason enough for the Second Dominion War. I prefer the ally approach because it's different and helps tie all of these events together.
I think it's silly to buy into the Dominion's propaganda. They are indeed tough, but let's not pretend like they don't have any weaknesses that can be exploited. The Iconians were smart enough to pick out our weaknesses and turn friends into enemies, so it couldn't be that hard for them to exploit something like the Jem'Hadar's addiction. Create an internal conflict between the Jem'Hadar via planted Servitors, then send Hur'q forces through the hidden gateways during the confusion. Hell, they could even tell the Jem'Hadar they will cure them of their addiction and bring some of them to their side. There are many possibilities going forward and people should keep an open mind.
I would also say that the time taken to uplift the Vaadwaur technology-wise is extremely short compared to other races that the Iconians might have did that as well for (such as the Elachi, or even the Solanae). So given given the vastly longer time they might have had to up-lift the Hur'q, and for the race to adapt an improve that technology over time could lead to them being alot stronger than the other Sevators of the Iconians (though the Iconians might have left the Hur'q in the Gamma quad to keep the Dominion occupied as well). Also who knows if the Hur'q would be fully working for the Iconians, but might be one of their first attempts to create a Servitor race like the Elachi and Solanae, but rebelled or revolted against them, and when the Hur'q began to see the movements an signs of the Iconians or their Servetors again causing them to go into hiding. With the weakening or the fact of the Iconians leaving, might cause the Hur'q to return again.
I actually like the idea of the Hur'q an their possible creations the Fek'Ihri being part of a Halloween type event, that would lead into the Gamma quad after the Hur'q an their genetically created soldiers (like the Fek'Ihri) that are created with the myths of the main factions in mind attack/raid the members of the alliance, and thru the event we begin to notice that the raids/attacks originated in the gamma quad. Than the Alliance asks the Dominion for permission to seek out the true source of the attacks in the Gamma quad, which could work thru several episodes detailing our exploration of the Gamma quad for the Hur'q.
Even if they did know it, why would you think that the Iconians would be so stupid to continue to let her try, and thus, possible succeed?
Because there was no guarantee she would succeed. They could have taken the chance and let her try, believing she would fail, or they could invade Dominion space and give them a legitimate reason to believe they are a threat. They either chose poorly and accidentally made an enemy of the Dominion by invading their space, or they did it simply because they didn't care and weren't necessarily afraid of them.
It would be even less logical to let another enemy faction join the frey when you are already having more trouble then you thought you would beating the enemy faction you believed you could easily beat.
Less logical than actively invading the enemy faction you don't want to pick a fight with yet? Because that's what they did and it made the Dominion join our side in the final battle.
Uhh no, it means they have severants in place to keep the gateways hidden.
Assumption. There is nothing saying they could use the servitors in this fashion, but there is nothing saying they can't either. Iconian tactics was to disrupt the political climate of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant in order to turn friend against friend. Why assume they couldn't or wouldn't do the same in Dominion space when we know they are actively observing them and have agents already in place?
I posted quotes from the canon which indicates the Jem'Hadar are not as loyal to the Dominion as they lead people to believe. We also know what happens when the Jem'Hadar are cut off from their supplies of white and that there are Jem'Hadar who have attempted to break away from the Dominion in the past. This is something that can be exploited. Do you deny that?
I would also say that the time taken to uplift the Vaadwaur technology-wise is extremely short compared to other races that the Iconians might have did that as well for (such as the Elachi, or even the Solanae). So given given the vastly longer time they might have had to up-lift the Hur'q, and for the race to adapt an improve that technology over time could lead to them being alot stronger than the other Sevators of the Iconians (though the Iconians might have left the Hur'q in the Gamma quad to keep the Dominion occupied as well).
Well if the Hur'q are servitors of the Iconians, then we'd have to ask why we didn't see them with the other servitors during the war. It's possible we didn't see them because they were confined to the Gamma Quadrant, but it's also possible they were held back on purpose. We know they planned to invade the Dominion at some point, and if they legitimately believed they were a stronger threat than the Alpha - Beta Quadrant powers, then maybe they held them back on purpose. Why waste your strongest army on weak enemies your other servitors can deal with? You can keep your strongest forces in reserve and eventually send them against a stronger opponent when you're ready.
Than the Alliance asks the Dominion for permission to seek out the true source of the attacks in the Gamma quad, which could work thru several episodes detailing our exploration of the Gamma quad for the Hur'q.
The Alliance does not need to ask The Dominion to go into the Gamma Quadrant. They had been exploring it for two years before they met the Dominion, and they were doing so again ever since the war ended.
DS9's writers made it clear that The Dominion does not control all of the Gamma Quadrant, and The Feds have free reign to explore the parts outside their territory, they just have to be mindful of The Dominion while they are there, since The Dominion are the one and only big boy on that block.
"The Dominion does not own the entire Gamma Quadrant. We had explored the GQ for two years before encountering the Dominion, so it's not as though the wormhole opens up in their living room. There are other races in the GQ that are not part of the Dominion and the Ferengi at least have established trade with some of them. When the Dominion told us to stay out of the GQ, it was as if China told the US to stay out of the Yellow Sea. China is the big boy in this neck of the woods, and you better take their warning seriously, but at the same time we have trading partners and allies there and hey, freedom of the seas and all that." ~ Ronald D. Moore
As true as that is, if such a arc lead to needing to explore areas controlled by the Dominion, than gaining their approval beforehand would be prudent. Also the alliance might wish to just placate the Dominion by asking permission, but also not to strain the few ties they have after the help rendered during the end of the Iconian war by the dominion. Also even if the Dominion does not own the Gamma quad, in current state the Alliance is in they would not want to take the risk of annoying the Dominion that might lead to more issues, and so might just merely ask permission as a formality as well as a gesture of good manners.
Also I would say that depending on the scale of exploration being done in the gamma quad the Dominion might just not find it worth the effort to do much about it, but honestly the scale of ships searching/exploring the gamma quad for the source of attacks on the Alpha/beta quad could be quite a bit larger an could lead to the Dominion reacting quite differently (even if it is not their territory).
I'll be on a wait and see thing. Since we have no idea, what Cryptic has planned for the 4th Expansion. It could be ANYTHING really.
Even though the tag line is "Victory is Life." Though it is nice to get an expansion based on DS9. I enjoyed the series.
The Rising of the Delta is the best expansion ever, and people love it to death because it is a good day to die in the endless struggle for supremacy of your own conviction. (A spin off of the Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and all the players love it.)
And you think that means they know everything The Dominion is doing?
Did I say they knew everything? Sela says the Iconians know what she's planning and they've come for her, so they clearly knew something. The Iconians obviously intended to invade Dominion space at some point. Keeping on eye on them before hand would be logical.
Perhaps you can provide an example then. I certainly don't recall the United States sending troops to Russia after Edward Snowden ran to their country. He wasn't there to convince Russia to fight the US like Sela is doing with the Dominion, but troops still weren't deployed to retrieve him regardless. Americans sending troops into Russia in order to stop one person from speaking to Russian officials would be a fantastic way of starting a war. You've made it clear that the Iconians weren't ready for a war with the Dominion and yet they sent Heralds into Dominion space. These people threaten to kill you if you fly too close to Dominion space, let alone forces popping in out of thin air.
If the Dominion was still undecided, then your army showing up out of the blue is a sure way to help them make up their mind.
The Iconians don't need to destabilize The Dominion, as The Dominion wasn't going to do anything about it anyways.
This is an assumption, and not a very good one at that. The Federation also had no intention of doing anything about it because for the longest time they had no idea the Iconians were even alive! They certainly had no idea they intended to invade. And yet the Iconians chose to trick the Undine into attacking so they'd destabilize the region. The Iconians chose to kidnap alien species and study them in detail. Hakeev tested and tortured many, many people so he could compile notes and submit them to his Iconian masters.
We know for a fact that they did this, and yet you don't believe they would even bother to do something similar with the Dominion because...? I'm seriously having a hard time understanding your so called logic. You say the Dominion alone are more powerful than the entire Alliance and yet apparently gathering intelligence on this superior foe is completely unnecessary? The Iconians will take the time to study and destabilize a "weak" foe, but not a powerful one?
Debating with someone whose every argument can be shot down via a quick jaunt into the game is also irritating, yet I manage to deal with it just fine.
Uh huh. You're the resident know-it-all who believes they can never be wrong, so you'd just end up shooting down everyone's argument no matter how closely they payed attention to the game.
We know for a fact that they did this, and yet you don't believe they would even bother to do something similar with the Dominion because...? I'm seriously having a hard time understanding your so called logic. You say the Dominion alone are more powerful than the entire Alliance and yet apparently gathering intelligence on this superior foe is completely unnecessary? The Iconians will take the time to study and destabilize a "weak" foe, but not a powerful one?
Seriously?
Just want to say the Iconians would, at all time, turn their eyes to the Dominion, as you simply can't ignore an enemy larger than all the other Alliance forces combined. To keep things current, it's like the USA planning to invade North-Korea, without bothering to check where China stands on the matter. Such a scenario would indeed be highly unrealistic.
You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying. I'm trying to explain how the Iconians can manipulate the Dominion the same way they manipulated the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers.
Except it isn't an assumption, the dominion themselves, in-game, outright tell you, when asked, that they know of the Iconians, and that their plan is to stay out of their way.
Why do you keep bringing up the Dominion's tactics for dealing with the Iconians? You do realize I've been talking about the Iconian's tactics for dealing with the Dominion, right? It's irrelevant if the Dominion has chosen to sit it out and ignore the Iconians because we know from the Iconian's logs that they will attack the Dominion at some point regardless. My whole point has been how they could pose a threat to the Dominion when you made the assumption that the Iconians wouldn't be a threat. That's why I brought up the Iconians using their servitors we know are planted in Dominion space to potentially manipulate the Dominion in similar ways they manipulated Alliance space. My example included messing with Ketracel-white facilities because the Founder's hold on the Jem'Hadar is not as strong as they lead people to believe. This could cause internal problems for the Dominion which could reduce their resources and potentially weaken them for Hur'q invasion.
You said manipulation wasn't necessary and I said that was an assumption. You can't tell me that the Dominion is uber powerful and the Iconians pose no threat to them and then say the Iconians wouldn't try to manipulate them covertly. Of course they would! They did so for the Alliance and they were "weaker" than the Dominion. If they took the time to weaken the Alliance, then they would try to weaken the Dominion before invasion too.
That's why I brought up the Federation's ignorance and how they too had no plans to deal with Iconians. You said they created plans once they found out, but you see I'm saying that the Iconians could have invaded while the Federation didn't know they were coming and taken them completely unawares. Instead they chose to manipulate them. If they chose to manipulate powers they didn't consider a threat, instead of just attacking them straight out, then why would they NOT manipulate powers they do consider a threat?
Manipulation causing dissent in order to weaken their enemy before invasion is a tactic they've used and it's dumb to assume they wouldn't use this tactic on the Dominion.
>The Iconians likely took manipulative action against the Iconians
And me pointing out why they wouldn't have, to
But your argument doesn't make any damn sense! It doesn't matter if the Dominion's plan was to ignore the Iconians. We know for a fact the Iconians intended to eventually invade the Dominion! Their plan to ignore the Iconians wouldn't have worked because the Iconians were eventually going to do anyway. You however said the Iconians pose no threat to the Dominion and so I came up with an idea how they could pose a threat: Manipulation. It's what they did in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant so it's something they could do in the Gamma Quadrant. The Dominion is not as stable as they pretend to be and the Iconians could exploit that. For some strange reason you insist the whole thing is unnecessary because the Dominion intends to sit on their butts. It's not logical.
>Your saying The Iconians did no intelligence gathering against The Dominion despite the fact they did against toher races.
You: "And they would know this how?"
Me: "You mean besides their Level 9 surveillance they have in effect?"
You: "And you think that means they know everything The Dominion is doing? Also, based on the other surveillance levels they give to the other species its more based on how stealthily they are doing the surveillance, not how much of it they are doing."
Me: Did I say they knew everything? Sela says the Iconians know what she's planning and they've come for her, so they clearly knew something. The Iconians obviously intended to invade Dominion space at some point. Keeping on eye on them before hand would be logical.
You didn't respond to my last point. So I have to ask you; where did I say the Iconians did no intelligence gathering? I distinctly said they would be keeping an eye on Sela because they have a Level 9 surveillance in place. You dismissed it and said it was about stealth, not how much surveillance they used. I said the Iconians clearly intend to invade and so keeping an eye on them before hand would be logical.
OFC the Iconians knew what Sela had planned, they had her in captivity for months.
Yes I'm sure while she was in captivity she was like "When I get out of here I'm going straight to the Dominion!" Because spilling her guts and telling everyone her plans in advance is something Sela is known for /sarcasm.
Also, again, The Dominion, as they themselves state earlier in the game, knew the Iconians were coming, and their plan was to not resist. The Iconians would have likely known this due to their surveillance of The Dominion, and thus, knew they were free to hunt down Sela so long as they didn't attack a Dominion world or w/e.
Sigh, you do know that if American troops stepped foot on Russian soil uninvited for ANY reason it would be war right? That's the point I was getting at. The Iconians can't just show up in Dominion space and hunt someone without permission. Sela was in talks with the Dominion and the Iconian military forces just showing up randomly would be a show of aggression. The Dominion isn't one to just sit back and allow that. They didn't even like people being near their space, let alone entering it on purpose without a care.
You appear to have some narcissistic need to challenge people's ideas and you're so intent on doing so now that you've completely forgotten, or perhaps never knew, what my idea was about.
Yes, the Dominion is powerful. I said that a long time ago, but the Iconians intended to invade at some point regardless if the Dominion's own plan was to try and avoid them. The Dominion is still powerful though, so the Iconians could use methods such as manipulation to weaken them before invading. You seem to hate this idea for some reason I have yet to understand.
You are all barking up the wrong tree. This is the beginning of a Star Trek Discovery Season. Those different looking Klingons that have been out of the picture for some time have gone through their own wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant. They met the Jem'Hadar and the Founders, have had some genetic manipulation and now believe that 'Victory is Life' as well.
Hur'q smirk.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
Pahleeze. Stop attributing them the depth of concern about the various and sundry mundane things in this game.
Leslie Moonves: 'Look Al, Steve, the Board just won't go for a 4/4 configuration on that T6 Constitution, they want it a 5/3. It's bad enough you talked us into an End Game Constitution after all these years, but if we're going to have it, it really needs to have a 'Hero' Ship layout... And make it as rare as h*ll.'
Al Rivera: 'Oh, we got just the mechanism to make oodles of money on it and keep the numbers down.'
Leslie: 'Good. We got plenty of other ships in the franchise we want to promote, including some from our upcoming reboot. We just can't have everyone flying those d*mned Constitutions, they'll never buy anything else.'
'And that children is the true story of how the End Game Constitution was born. Now good night and sleep tight.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You're privy to the technological sophistication and strength of the Hur'q's military?
Key word: Assistance. The female Changeling was incredibly annoyed with the Cardassian people because they had failed to get the job done. At one point they had attempted to broker a temporary truce with the Alliance in order to rebuild their forces and the Female Changeling herself negotiated a secret treaty with the Breen because she needed their help. They're tough, but they're not unstoppable.
Pure assumption, as we know absolutely nothing about the Hur'q or their capabilities.
Like the time they lost their ship while chasing renegade Jem'Hadar so they killed the crew of the Defiant and stole it for their own use? No wait, they needed Sisko's help so it became a joint Dominion-Federation mission. Or maybe like the time they wanted the Female Changeling back so they assaulted Facility 4028 and took her by force? No wait, they actually bargained for her release because we needed a favor from them.
I guess the Dominion is actually willing to work with or negotiate with people when it suits them.
You continue to assume this despite the fact we know absolutely nothing about them. Remember when we went into the Delta Quadrant and Seven of Nine said Starfleet didn't even give the Vaadwaur a second thought because they shouldn't be that powerful? Boy were they surprised.
Speak for yourself. My ship eats Jem'Hadar for breakfast. Personally I believe the Cardassians put up more of a fight than Jem'Hadar do. And yes I know you were talking about plot and not gameplay, even though I was talking about gameplay when I said we'd easily destroy them. The Borg were supposed to be a threat too, but anyone around here can solo multiple Cubes with ease. You can talk about how powerful they're supposed to be in a lore all you want, but if the gameplay doesn't reflect that then it fails to deliver. That's one of the reasons people never liked the Iconian War storyline. They spent so much time building them up, yet despite dialog telling us how bad it is we never really felt like it was as bad as they said it was.
If they talk a big game with the Dominion and the story ends with us winning the day with relative ease yet again, then it doesn't do the Dominion justice.
Uniting the Empire is pointless? After the battle with the House of Torg and the conflict between Martok and J'mpok, they could use a bit of inspiration. No one ever said the feud was completely over.
"Martok has assure me that he will not pursue the Chancellery. This will make a number of people sleep easier... for now, at least.
And if Martok should wish to revisit our old quarrel... I shall be waiting."
Nothing is happening now, but it's left open enough that some internal conflict could arise once more. Martok defeating the Hur'q with the Sword of Kahless on the other hand would be something else.
That's your opinion, but I liked his novels. I also know it's not canon and didn't say they should copy it, only be inspired by it.
How could that be possible? The Iconians have observed all of us for thousands of years. Yet know so little about us to prove they are not omniscient. So data can be missed by them. This also means that technically they don't need to use the iconians directly. Perhaps it was an investigation that woke the hur'q and the reason they want so much resources is not just the Dominion. But having to face the similarly strong Hur'q at the same time or right after.
The Fehklari attack on the KDF may have been a probing mission to test their old slaves. But seeing the other players they chose to commit to the home front before venturing back to the alpha and beta quadrants.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
That doesn't actually have to mean the Dominion on its own was seen as the most serious threat. It just means it was seen as more effective to deal with the Alpha and Beta Quadrants first and then from there to launch againts the Dominion.
Tey played their little game with the Undine to get the Klingons and Federation each other throats - they probably didn't have a similar avenue to disrupt the Dominion.
My guess would be that they expected the Dominion wouldn't really react to the Klingons and Federation tearing each other apart and the Iconians swooping in to destroy the rest. But attacking the Dominion would put the Iconian threat on the map and likely consolidate the Federation/Klingon alliance, making disrupting it even harder. And worse, it could very well be that such an alliance would intervene in an Iconian/Dominion war (with or without a request by the Dominion), and ensure that they would have to fight all factions at once.
The events in the Delta Quadrant pretty much show that a Klingon/Federation (and Romulan) alliance would be willing to intervene in a quadrant-wide war, as we did quickly form the Delta Alliance to repel the Vaadwaur.
Anything in this thread can be easily shot down because this is all speculation. Go back in time to any ideas Cryptic developed into content and you can shoot them down too, all the way up until they put the idea into the game. But since this is just for fun:
1) Borg derived Nanites have infested several Dominion worlds and learned about Warp travel. Now a plague of microscopic nanites are spreading out at Warp 2 from their point of origin on the edge of Dominion space, assimilating everything they encounter along the way. The Dominion needs help as various factions steal every starship they can find to flee the plague, sometimes helping it spread as infected ships join the diaspora. The Dominion economy is in shambles as desperate worlds shoot on sight any trader potentially carrying the plague.
Was it an industrial accident? A case of machine evolution? Or was the Dominion involved in research that got out of hand?
2) A thousand years ago the Fek'lri were created by the Hur'q as shock troops. They were copied by the Dominion, who in turn created the Jem Hadar. Unlike the Dominion who instilled fear through military oppression, the Hur'q used psychological warfare. It didn't work on the Dominion, whose troops were designed for disciplined military conquest rather than chaotic waves of rabid assaults. While the Hur'q were trying to subdue their targets via mind games and manipulation, the Dominion crushed their fleets and subsumed the worlds under their control one by one in an orderly advance that withstood repeated waves of suicide swarms of Fek'lr. As the final Hur'q worlds were conquered, their leadership fled into subspace where they hid, nursing their grudge and building up their armies of Fek'lri soldiers while they await an opportunity to strike.
Their attack on the Klingon homeworld was what the military types call a live fire exercise, and they were gauging the relative strength of their modern military. Now they have returned, swarming from their pocket dimension to recapture all that was stolen from them and avenge themselves on the Dominion.
3) Odo has drastically altered the balance of power in The Great Link, causing the Dominion to attempt to become kinder and gentler in their treatment of subject races. Unfortunately, these races have grown accustomed to oppression, and have interpreted the Dominion's restraint as weakness. Incipient civil war in The Dominion threatens unless something can be done. Odo needs the help of a warrior/diplomat with a reputation for getting things done before it all comes loose and the Founders restore order the old fashioned way.
4) T'ket never believed the Dominion was as powerful as their propaganda claimed. While a part of the Whole she was prevented from acting against their wishes, but now she is no longer held back by their cowardice and she can unleash her new, modernized Hur'q fleets just as soon as their new, modernized, Fek'lri crews are hatched. The Dominion discovered their plan, but too late. With defensive plans in the works, the Dominion has come seeking Alliance aid to inflict a surgical strike on their cloning facilities, thus crippling the Hur'q before their plans can be enacted.
I could shoot holes in these ideas all day, but feel free to do so if you like. Debate is supposed to be a collaboration where the ideas of one person get refined by the support and criticism of others. To criticise an idea is to improve it, or demonstrate fatal weaknesses in it leading eventually to better ideas. Critiques of ideas should never be taken personally, and attacks on ideas should never be construed as attacks on the poster.
I offer a lot of ideas and on occasion vigorously defend them, but I don't do it by personalizing my argument. If my phrasing or method of presentation has been taken by anyone as a personal attack, please accept my apologies and my assurance that I did not do so through animosity toward any poster, but through my love of the examination of ideas in an adversarial debate.
Final note: I don't bring my feelings to the forums where they can get hurt. No one has hurt my feelings here since I first logged in. But I have enjoyed the many debates we've had, including this one, and I have enjoyed being exposed to many great concepts and ideas which would never have occurred to me. You guys are great, and I appreciate every poster and every post. Especially the ones with which I disagree.
1) Borg already have nanites. How is this different? If you say that they can also assimilate founders. Then this is a repeat of a mission in the borg series. Where they learned to assimilate species 8472.
3) The kinder gentler approach brought by one being bringing down the empire. That is the Mirror plot. Mirror Spock was given to try for peace and the Terran Empire got kinder then subjugated. They had to get help from DS9 then became despots again because peace meant slavery. So this one seems a repeat as well.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
In another thread, there was supposition about a "Paramount/Bad Robot" license for the JJ-Trek movies. So, I spent a considerable amount of time researching the history of Star Trek licensed products. CBS is incredibly generous with regards to changing the setting (as long as they get their cut). Books and video games are the closest examples of this, as they often wildly deviate from established cannon and even contradict the shows and movies. While CBS reserves the right to withdraw their license, it has to "diminish the Star Trek brand" for them to do so.
Even the new Star Trek: Discovery has very little CBS involvement with the creative process and it's an actual show.
See, it's not about all that stuff that was built up for tension. It's about how does the writer want this to end. The point being: you don't know what the writer has in mind. So all your assertions are empty supposition. So the Vaudwaar, who curbstomp the Borg, are defeated by an underwhelming ramshackle force of Delta quadrant cast-offs and you maintain there is no writer fiat there?
This seems a prime example of my point: the outcome will be whatever Cryptic wants it to be. Because we, the players, have to win. Just that simple. We've faced a number of "serious threats to the Alpha/Beta Quadrants".
... and we've stopped them. Every time. There are no lies here. Your fanfiction may not line up with what Cryptic has in mind. We'll see how they view the Dominion's power when we get to "Victory is Life". They might hint at it beforehand, but all doubts will be cast aside when we get there.
My character Tsin'xing
That is an interesting thought. But it would have to have hit the founder central homeworld. Thus reducing the numbers of the 'gods' to make them desire assistance. Any simply member world and the founders are unlikely to care. They are just solids after all.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
And how do you find her?
We know the exact number of gates in the Gamma Quadrant, right?
But what if T'ket built gates unconnected with the main grid? Or uses any of half a dozen possible ways to travel undetected?
If the Dominion was too powerful for the Iconians at that particular time, then why did Herald forces come looking for Sela in Dominion space? I highly doubt it was out of desperation, considering Sela's attempts at being heard by Dominion leadership were essentially going nowhere. She complained about getting the run around in her notes to the player, but then suddenly the Iconians show up and come for her in Dominion space? Why? Perhaps it's because the Iconians are not as afraid of the Dominion as some are leading us to believe. It was made clear that the assault on Earth was a win or die situation. Had the Alliance failed, the Iconians would have won. This, to me, indicates that they were not afraid of failure and therefor were not so desperate they attempted to kill Sela in Dominion space in order to prevent them from joining the Alliance. It just wouldn't be logical for them to risk angering the Dominion by entering their space for a woman who poses no real threat to them at the time.
Sphere of Influence would also tell us that the Iconians have infiltrated Dominion space and have successfully kept their gateway network hidden from them. This means that the Iconians are studying the Dominion like they studied the other species of the galaxy, and they're manipulating them enough that they can keep Iconian locations hidden from them. The Iconians were powerful, but they never did attack the Alpha Quadrant straight out. Instead they chose to spy, study and manipulate powers into fighting each other so that they would be weakened when the time came to attack. Can we say for certain that the Iconians haven't attempted something similar in the Gamma Quadrant?
"Couldn't the Founders just order them to surrender? From what I know, the Jem'Hadar have been genetically-engineered to obey them?!"
"The Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar has been somewhat... overstated. Otherwise we never would've had to addict them to the white."
"Sounds like the Dominion isn't quite as stable as you'd like us to believe."
"The Dominion has endured for two thousand years, and will continue to endure long after the Federation has crumbled into dust... but we'll leave that to history."
That's a conversation between Weyoun and Sisko in the episode where they hunted renegade Jem'Hadar who had access to an Iconian gateway. The Iconian's observation of the Dominion in Sphere of Influence is Vandros IV where those Jem'Hadar found the gateway. It would seem to me that the Iconians would be aware of the Dominion's exaggerated stability and would seek to take advantage of it.
It's possible the Iconians could have used their hidden servitors to sabotage Ketracel-white facilities which has caused a break down in Dominion space. This takes me back to my original proposal where the Son'a are supplying the Dominion with Ketracel-white, but we disrupted those operations when we broke Martok out of prison. The Son'a Commander there threatens us and says they are still friends with the Dominion and we shouldn't anger them. Perhaps this was a set up for the Dominion being a future antagonist, but I highly doubt us picking on the Son'a is reason enough for the Second Dominion War. I prefer the ally approach because it's different and helps tie all of these events together.
I think it's silly to buy into the Dominion's propaganda. They are indeed tough, but let's not pretend like they don't have any weaknesses that can be exploited. The Iconians were smart enough to pick out our weaknesses and turn friends into enemies, so it couldn't be that hard for them to exploit something like the Jem'Hadar's addiction. Create an internal conflict between the Jem'Hadar via planted Servitors, then send Hur'q forces through the hidden gateways during the confusion. Hell, they could even tell the Jem'Hadar they will cure them of their addiction and bring some of them to their side. There are many possibilities going forward and people should keep an open mind.
I actually like the idea of the Hur'q an their possible creations the Fek'Ihri being part of a Halloween type event, that would lead into the Gamma quad after the Hur'q an their genetically created soldiers (like the Fek'Ihri) that are created with the myths of the main factions in mind attack/raid the members of the alliance, and thru the event we begin to notice that the raids/attacks originated in the gamma quad. Than the Alliance asks the Dominion for permission to seek out the true source of the attacks in the Gamma quad, which could work thru several episodes detailing our exploration of the Gamma quad for the Hur'q.
You mean besides their Level 9 surveillance they have in effect?
Because there was no guarantee she would succeed. They could have taken the chance and let her try, believing she would fail, or they could invade Dominion space and give them a legitimate reason to believe they are a threat. They either chose poorly and accidentally made an enemy of the Dominion by invading their space, or they did it simply because they didn't care and weren't necessarily afraid of them.
Less logical than actively invading the enemy faction you don't want to pick a fight with yet? Because that's what they did and it made the Dominion join our side in the final battle.
Assumption. There is nothing saying they could use the servitors in this fashion, but there is nothing saying they can't either. Iconian tactics was to disrupt the political climate of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant in order to turn friend against friend. Why assume they couldn't or wouldn't do the same in Dominion space when we know they are actively observing them and have agents already in place?
I posted quotes from the canon which indicates the Jem'Hadar are not as loyal to the Dominion as they lead people to believe. We also know what happens when the Jem'Hadar are cut off from their supplies of white and that there are Jem'Hadar who have attempted to break away from the Dominion in the past. This is something that can be exploited. Do you deny that?
Your ego is starting to get irritating.
Well if the Hur'q are servitors of the Iconians, then we'd have to ask why we didn't see them with the other servitors during the war. It's possible we didn't see them because they were confined to the Gamma Quadrant, but it's also possible they were held back on purpose. We know they planned to invade the Dominion at some point, and if they legitimately believed they were a stronger threat than the Alpha - Beta Quadrant powers, then maybe they held them back on purpose. Why waste your strongest army on weak enemies your other servitors can deal with? You can keep your strongest forces in reserve and eventually send them against a stronger opponent when you're ready.
As true as that is, if such a arc lead to needing to explore areas controlled by the Dominion, than gaining their approval beforehand would be prudent. Also the alliance might wish to just placate the Dominion by asking permission, but also not to strain the few ties they have after the help rendered during the end of the Iconian war by the dominion. Also even if the Dominion does not own the Gamma quad, in current state the Alliance is in they would not want to take the risk of annoying the Dominion that might lead to more issues, and so might just merely ask permission as a formality as well as a gesture of good manners.
Also I would say that depending on the scale of exploration being done in the gamma quad the Dominion might just not find it worth the effort to do much about it, but honestly the scale of ships searching/exploring the gamma quad for the source of attacks on the Alpha/beta quad could be quite a bit larger an could lead to the Dominion reacting quite differently (even if it is not their territory).
Even though the tag line is "Victory is Life." Though it is nice to get an expansion based on DS9. I enjoyed the series.
Did I say they knew everything? Sela says the Iconians know what she's planning and they've come for her, so they clearly knew something. The Iconians obviously intended to invade Dominion space at some point. Keeping on eye on them before hand would be logical.
Perhaps you can provide an example then. I certainly don't recall the United States sending troops to Russia after Edward Snowden ran to their country. He wasn't there to convince Russia to fight the US like Sela is doing with the Dominion, but troops still weren't deployed to retrieve him regardless. Americans sending troops into Russia in order to stop one person from speaking to Russian officials would be a fantastic way of starting a war. You've made it clear that the Iconians weren't ready for a war with the Dominion and yet they sent Heralds into Dominion space. These people threaten to kill you if you fly too close to Dominion space, let alone forces popping in out of thin air.
If the Dominion was still undecided, then your army showing up out of the blue is a sure way to help them make up their mind.
This is an assumption, and not a very good one at that. The Federation also had no intention of doing anything about it because for the longest time they had no idea the Iconians were even alive! They certainly had no idea they intended to invade. And yet the Iconians chose to trick the Undine into attacking so they'd destabilize the region. The Iconians chose to kidnap alien species and study them in detail. Hakeev tested and tortured many, many people so he could compile notes and submit them to his Iconian masters.
We know for a fact that they did this, and yet you don't believe they would even bother to do something similar with the Dominion because...? I'm seriously having a hard time understanding your so called logic. You say the Dominion alone are more powerful than the entire Alliance and yet apparently gathering intelligence on this superior foe is completely unnecessary? The Iconians will take the time to study and destabilize a "weak" foe, but not a powerful one?
Seriously?
Uh huh. You're the resident know-it-all who believes they can never be wrong, so you'd just end up shooting down everyone's argument no matter how closely they payed attention to the game.
Just want to say the Iconians would, at all time, turn their eyes to the Dominion, as you simply can't ignore an enemy larger than all the other Alliance forces combined. To keep things current, it's like the USA planning to invade North-Korea, without bothering to check where China stands on the matter. Such a scenario would indeed be highly unrealistic.
Why do you keep bringing up the Dominion's tactics for dealing with the Iconians? You do realize I've been talking about the Iconian's tactics for dealing with the Dominion, right? It's irrelevant if the Dominion has chosen to sit it out and ignore the Iconians because we know from the Iconian's logs that they will attack the Dominion at some point regardless. My whole point has been how they could pose a threat to the Dominion when you made the assumption that the Iconians wouldn't be a threat. That's why I brought up the Iconians using their servitors we know are planted in Dominion space to potentially manipulate the Dominion in similar ways they manipulated Alliance space. My example included messing with Ketracel-white facilities because the Founder's hold on the Jem'Hadar is not as strong as they lead people to believe. This could cause internal problems for the Dominion which could reduce their resources and potentially weaken them for Hur'q invasion.
You said manipulation wasn't necessary and I said that was an assumption. You can't tell me that the Dominion is uber powerful and the Iconians pose no threat to them and then say the Iconians wouldn't try to manipulate them covertly. Of course they would! They did so for the Alliance and they were "weaker" than the Dominion. If they took the time to weaken the Alliance, then they would try to weaken the Dominion before invasion too.
That's why I brought up the Federation's ignorance and how they too had no plans to deal with Iconians. You said they created plans once they found out, but you see I'm saying that the Iconians could have invaded while the Federation didn't know they were coming and taken them completely unawares. Instead they chose to manipulate them. If they chose to manipulate powers they didn't consider a threat, instead of just attacking them straight out, then why would they NOT manipulate powers they do consider a threat?
Manipulation causing dissent in order to weaken their enemy before invasion is a tactic they've used and it's dumb to assume they wouldn't use this tactic on the Dominion.
But your argument doesn't make any damn sense! It doesn't matter if the Dominion's plan was to ignore the Iconians. We know for a fact the Iconians intended to eventually invade the Dominion! Their plan to ignore the Iconians wouldn't have worked because the Iconians were eventually going to do anyway. You however said the Iconians pose no threat to the Dominion and so I came up with an idea how they could pose a threat: Manipulation. It's what they did in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant so it's something they could do in the Gamma Quadrant. The Dominion is not as stable as they pretend to be and the Iconians could exploit that. For some strange reason you insist the whole thing is unnecessary because the Dominion intends to sit on their butts. It's not logical.
You: "And they would know this how?"
Me: "You mean besides their Level 9 surveillance they have in effect?"
You: "And you think that means they know everything The Dominion is doing? Also, based on the other surveillance levels they give to the other species its more based on how stealthily they are doing the surveillance, not how much of it they are doing."
Me: Did I say they knew everything? Sela says the Iconians know what she's planning and they've come for her, so they clearly knew something. The Iconians obviously intended to invade Dominion space at some point. Keeping on eye on them before hand would be logical.
You didn't respond to my last point. So I have to ask you; where did I say the Iconians did no intelligence gathering? I distinctly said they would be keeping an eye on Sela because they have a Level 9 surveillance in place. You dismissed it and said it was about stealth, not how much surveillance they used. I said the Iconians clearly intend to invade and so keeping an eye on them before hand would be logical.
Perhaps you're the one who is all over the map.
Yes I'm sure while she was in captivity she was like "When I get out of here I'm going straight to the Dominion!" Because spilling her guts and telling everyone her plans in advance is something Sela is known for /sarcasm.
Sigh, you do know that if American troops stepped foot on Russian soil uninvited for ANY reason it would be war right? That's the point I was getting at. The Iconians can't just show up in Dominion space and hunt someone without permission. Sela was in talks with the Dominion and the Iconian military forces just showing up randomly would be a show of aggression. The Dominion isn't one to just sit back and allow that. They didn't even like people being near their space, let alone entering it on purpose without a care.
You appear to have some narcissistic need to challenge people's ideas and you're so intent on doing so now that you've completely forgotten, or perhaps never knew, what my idea was about.
Yes, the Dominion is powerful. I said that a long time ago, but the Iconians intended to invade at some point regardless if the Dominion's own plan was to try and avoid them. The Dominion is still powerful though, so the Iconians could use methods such as manipulation to weaken them before invading. You seem to hate this idea for some reason I have yet to understand.
Hur'q smirk.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'