The map has The Dominion situated around the wormhole, with the Hur'q to the east. If The Dominion existed as a military power at the time, how did the Hur'q make consistent use of the wormhole for at least several generations?
I'm wondering about the Dominion's version of history. Perhaps The Hur'q were the cause of the xenophobia of The Founders, and they are hiding the fact that they were technologically inferior to the solids who waged war around them until they used Hur'q DNA to create the Jem Hadar, which was then used to commit genocide on the Hur'q and subsequently control the Solids in their sphere of interest.
This would also be about the time Odo and company were sent out into the galaxy. Was this Changeling curiosity? Or a strategy to prevent the extinction of their species?
The Dominion has existed for 2,000 years, that does not mean they controlled all the area they do today for all of those 2,000 years.
The map has The Dominion situated around the wormhole, with the Hur'q to the east. If The Dominion existed as a military power at the time, how did the Hur'q make consistent use of the wormhole for at least several generations?
I'm wondering about the Dominion's version of history. Perhaps The Hur'q were the cause of the xenophobia of The Founders, and they are hiding the fact that they were technologically inferior to the solids who waged war around them until they used Hur'q DNA to create the Jem Hadar, which was then used to commit genocide on the Hur'q and subsequently control the Solids in their sphere of interest.
This would also be about the time Odo and company were sent out into the galaxy. Was this Changeling curiosity? Or a strategy to prevent the extinction of their species?
Well, there is another question that needs answered. What happened to the Hur'q? We saw in DS9 that they took the sword of Kahless all the way back to the Gamma Quadrant with them. Spoils of war I imagine. But they didn't succeed in actually keeping it.
My theory is the occupation of Qo'nos ended because the Hur'q couldn't bring in reinforcements. Then the Hur'q lost a war of attrition. But... who took out the major Hur'q settlements? Hmm.... Not any of the alpha or beta powers....
Writing a way the Hur'q survived is actually easy. We know where their main base of power was. We also know where at least one of their conquests was. If we assume they had other conquests spread that far from their home base, then it's possible that they have already rebuilt their empire on top of the bones of a race that was less skilled at fighting than the Klingons. I could see the devs doing a mission where we have to find the new Hur'q HW.
And before someone says "wormhole".... There's no reason to think the Hur'q used the Celestial Temple. Qo'nos is a long ways away from it, and the gates were sealed at that time anyways. Thus leaving other methods. Like that portal tech we see the Feks use in game.
That's... the entire article. I do have to note the use of the word "apparently".
No, the point still stands though.
The idea that they couldn't have used the wormhole because it was closed back then is demonstrably false, as even CBS has suggested that they might have, and Voyager proved outright that other races knew of it long before it "first" opened to Benjamin Sisko.
IIRC, its mentioned that the Iconians knew of, and greatly respected, the Prophets, so there was some contact even back then.
It comes across as in-universe speculation.
Although, one could argue that they might have been the reason the Prophets closed the gates of the Celestial Temple.
Well, we've already done Pah Wraiths and Prophets, Dominion Wars and Mirror Universe incursions. I don't see it as necessary to involve any of those things. Plus, Nichelle Nichols sicced Charlie X on Emperor Gary and fixed everything.
As much as I enjoyed those episodes, it's time for new stuff. Gamma Quadrant is officially where no man has gone before and, as such, it can become anything the content writers dream up. There are known but unexplored regions of space, alien cultures, and histories out there, and that's where I think we should go.
I realize STO caters to the franchise fan by offering them bits of the familiar, but when has STO been at its best? In my opinion, that happened most often when they took a piece of canon and ran with it. Spectres, What Lies Beneath, the entire Iconian story: they each took a 'fact' of the Trekverse and built a new story based on it.
And that's what I'm hoping from the Gamma Expansion, in whatever form it eventually takes. The Hur'q are convienient, as are a dozen races briefly mentioned in canon. But there are other stories and infinite opportunity to exploit them in the Gamma Quadrant.
Anyone think they could get Jeffrey Combs for a few episodes?
This would be awesome.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
there is no law whatsoever that says they have to limit themselves to one single series of star trek at a time when working on a season or expansion
i mean, the tzenkethi arc itself has elements from just about every series
you got late TOS/early TMP with K-13, TNG with sela and finding out what befell tasha yar, and now DS9 with martok, that jem'hadar - hell, the tzenkethi themselves were first mentioned in DS9
and with this upcoming nexus FE, that'll be more TMP/TNG mixed story
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
As much as I enjoyed those episodes, it's time for new stuff. Gamma Quadrant is officially where no man has gone before and, as such, it can become anything the content writers dream up. There are known but unexplored regions of space, alien cultures, and histories out there, and that's where I think we should go.
This is also untrue, as The Feds were exploring the Gamma Quadrant for two years before they encountered The Dominion, and since the end of the Dominion War in DS9, they continued their explorations of the quadrant with the caveat that they stay out of The Dominion's territory.
While we as players have not been able to go there, The Federation and other groups have been exploring it for several decades at this point.
As I said, known, but unexplored, as in the Federation has maps, but we've never been there.
I realize STO caters to the franchise fan by offering them bits of the familiar, but when has STO been at its best? In my opinion, that happened most often when they took a piece of canon and ran with it. Spectres, What Lies Beneath, the entire Iconian story: they each took a 'fact' of the Trekverse and built a new story based on it.
Except all of those stories aren't Cryptic taking a bit of lore and running with it, all of them are directly from the lore itself. The Iconians being "demons of air and darkness, who were actually nice but written as evil by the races who destroyed them" was everything Picard had stated was the case.
Directly from lore? I don't recall any Davidians invading True Way or CDF forces in any episode of Trek. I also only recall one homicidal hologram, but The Doctor never haunted the lower decks of Drozana. And as much as I recall the name Iconian associated with some doors to the universe, I don't recall meeting glowy energy beings who held a grudge for longer than humans have been able to use language.
I'd call that taking a bit of lore and running with it. It's okay if you don't, but my point was to show examples of good storylines built on kernels of lore, and I think these are examples. Of course, you might also question my use of the word 'good,' but that's okay too.
And that's what I'm hoping from the Gamma Expansion, in whatever form it eventually takes. The Hur'q are convienient, as are a dozen races briefly mentioned in canon. But there are other stories and infinite opportunity to exploit them in the Gamma Quadrant.
That isn't how any of this works, never had, never will.
The Gamma Quadrant is the most limited of the four quadrants in lore, which also makes it the most limited in what Cryptic can do with it.
There are enough bits of lore to pursue an episode or an expansion. Cryptic has, in the past, built more with far less. The various Borg and Undine arcs come to mind, as does the Nakhul storyline.
This is, in fact, their normal business. They take bits from the TV shows and build stories around them. There are a half-dozen canon Gamma Quadrant races as fully fleshed out as the Nakhul, and a half dozen more with as much mention in the show as Kobalis. There are enough bits to build as much story into the Gamma Quadrant as STO wants.
The question of if they want to go Gamma has not been answered, but that's the only real bar to a Gamma Quadrant expansion.
I'm sorry, but you seem to be picking nits and then intentionally misrepresenting what I said.
It's perfectly fine if you don't like the idea of a Gamma Quadrant expansion. Opinions vary, and we can sometimes agree and sometimes disagree. But my point has been consistent, and my posts speak for themselves.
I realize STO caters to the franchise fan by offering them bits of the familiar, but when has STO been at its best? In my opinion, that happened most often when they took a piece of canon and ran with it. Spectres, What Lies Beneath, the entire Iconian story: they each took a 'fact' of the Trekverse and built a new story based on it.
I'm going to have to disagree on the Iconian War. It was fairly terrible. It's the main reason I hope we don't have another war.
I want to see the Dominion be an ally, instead of them being an enemy yet again. The enemy going forward should be the Hur'q.
If it was me I would make the Hur'q a former power in the Gamma Quadrant that disappeared after the Dominion dominated their area of space. They would then team up with and become servitors of the Iconians. The Iconian War is officially over, but T'Ket continues to plan her revenge behind the scenes. T'Ket had taken the Sword of Kahless after she killed Kahless in battle and presented it to the Hur'q leader. They then begin their assault on Dominion space, but the Dominion are too stubborn to admit the Hur'q are too much for them.
It would turn out that the Son'a have continued to secretly move shipments of Ketracel-white to the Dominion because the Hur'q conflict is draining their resources, but after the Son'a facility in the Briar Patch is disrupted during the Alliance's prison break the Dominion lose their shipments and are forced to make contact with the Alliance and explain their predicament.
The Dominion had provided resources to save Earth from the Iconians, so they're calling in a favor and reluctantly requesting aid. The Klingons spearhead the Alliance's push into the Gamma Quadrant because they have a personal grudge against the Hur'q, which ties the Fek'lhri storyline into the whole thing because the Hur'q had created them and unleashed them on the Klingons under the Iconians orders. The Klingons are now ready to take the fight to the Hur'q.
At some point in the story the Klingons should discover the Hur'q leader's possession of the Sword of Kahless and attempt to steal it back. General Martok himself should claim the sword and become Emperor of the Empire, continuing to serve as a figurehead like Kahless while J'mpok still officially rules the Empire.
In the end this conflict will result in us discovering the planet which would eventually become known as "New Khitomer" which will be the location of the signing of the Temporal Accords.
If T'ket is involved, will we be looking for Iconian gateways which are 'off the grid'?
Probably. I'm sure there are lots and lots of gateways unaccounted for. The Iconians did have a presence in the Gamma Quadrant since the discovery of the gateway on Vandros IV.
The one big problem with this idea is that we know, for a fact, that even when all 12 of the Iconians were fighting with their forces together, they didn't believe they could take The Dominion until they had fully conquered the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, and had the resources of those quadrants under their belt. How is T'Ket alone with some Hur'q going to a pose a logical threat?
It was recommended that they don't engage the Dominion, but that doesn't mean T'Ket must adhere to that recommendation. We really don't know the political climate in Dominion space as of now. It would be ironic if the Iconians had infiltrated the Dominion and caused unrest, similar to what the Dominion did to the Alpha/Beta Quadrants years before. It was said that servitors were put in place to prevent the Dominion from discovering Iconian gateways, which means they can be used for a surprise attack. Use the Hur'q to get the Dominion's attention so they pull their forces to a specific location to engage them and then Hur'q forces pour through the gateways all across Dominion space catching them unaware.
I also don't understand this desire to pussify The Dominion into giant wimps that need to crawl to the Federation for help. One of the best things about The Dominion was that they were one of the races honestly more powerful then The Federation, that weren't some ascendant higher power species like Q, instead of them being yet another races whose technology was decades, if not centuries, behind the Federation, that only proved a problem because Kirk or Picard were playing the moral high ground card and didn't just obliterate them from orbit with their many times more advanced starships. I don't see why people keep trying to make it to where the Federation has no equals or greaters in the universe.
Asking for help is not a weakness, especially if they consider it us doing them a favor because they helped us once. The Dominion are powerful to be sure, but they are also aware of it and extremely full of it. The Dominion encountering a powerful enemy doesn't "pussify" them, it only humbles them. It would be good to see their ego knocked down a couple of notches. Besides, we know the Dominion plays nice with the Alliance and sends a representative to witness the signing of the Temporal Accords, so they not only survive this conflict, but also remain peaceful with everyone else. Mutual cooporation now would explain why we continue to play nice in the future.
It's better than saying the Dominion are super duper powerful and then having us kill them with ease like every other species in the game. Wouldn't that "pussify" them even more?
Not to mention, Martok never wanted to rule The Empire, or be in any sort of leadership position. This idea he would accept the role of figurehead emperor is inconstant with everything in the TV shows, and even in STO where Quinn outright says Martok has no desire to get back into the political game.
Except as a figurehead he wouldn't have any real power and would just have a comfortable position where he doesn't have to really do anything. His House and J'mpok's House are in a blood feud, but if he accepts the Emperors position while allowing J'mpok to remain in power, he can consider the feud over and help strengthen ties between the Houses.
Besides that, Martok getting his hands on the Sword of Kahless and uniting the Empire would take inspiration from J.G. Hertzler's own novel.
Which is part of the reason why he wouldn't do it, its pointless. There is no reason for it besides Martok fans being able to get pandered too.
I just wish to address this one tiny point. The rest of your arguments stand on their own merits. But as a Martok fan, I think him taking up the hollow position of Emperor would be a slap in the face of the character. He was a seasoned soldier who held his honour and did his duty without the vanity for titles. Nor the conniving for politics. He was willing to be thrown under the political bus just to keep the focus on the war. If Worf had not practically forced the mantle of the chancellor onto him. He would not have taken even that.
Pander to me by making him lead the Alliance fleets. Do battle with both honour and competence. And live up to his self written legend.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The Dominion has MANY fleets of ships, their total strength is far greater then that of the Alliance's even before we lost half our fleet in the Iconian War, and now that 10 of the remaining 11 Iconians have left, we have been able to keep T'ket under control with our fairly battered fleets. There is no way T'ket, or the Hur'q could do any reasonable damage to The Dominion's forces.
Supposition, again. No one predicted that the Iconians would turn the Vaudwaar into a powerhouse. If they want to, Cryptic can do the same to the Hur'q
If Cryptic wants a defeated Dominion that asks for help, they will write it that way. If they want the Dominion to invade they will write that as well. Your assertions are not facts.
what cryptic wants, they don't always get; everything they do has to be vetted by CBS first, and if CBS doesn't want a weak dominion, cryptic has to abide by that whether or not that's what THEY want
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
And, as I pointed out earlier, we really have no data on the current state of the Hur'q. Some sources suggest they're dead... but that is hard to take as fact when we don't know where they were
Comments
Sorry been awhile since I played that arc, might be a good time to revisit it.
Co-Leader of Serenity's Grasp
My theory is the occupation of Qo'nos ended because the Hur'q couldn't bring in reinforcements. Then the Hur'q lost a war of attrition. But... who took out the major Hur'q settlements? Hmm.... Not any of the alpha or beta powers....
Writing a way the Hur'q survived is actually easy. We know where their main base of power was. We also know where at least one of their conquests was. If we assume they had other conquests spread that far from their home base, then it's possible that they have already rebuilt their empire on top of the bones of a race that was less skilled at fighting than the Klingons. I could see the devs doing a mission where we have to find the new Hur'q HW.
And before someone says "wormhole".... There's no reason to think the Hur'q used the Celestial Temple. Qo'nos is a long ways away from it, and the gates were sealed at that time anyways. Thus leaving other methods. Like that portal tech we see the Feks use in game.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
My character Tsin'xing
Although, one could argue that they might have been the reason the Prophets closed the gates of the Celestial Temple.
My character Tsin'xing
As much as I enjoyed those episodes, it's time for new stuff. Gamma Quadrant is officially where no man has gone before and, as such, it can become anything the content writers dream up. There are known but unexplored regions of space, alien cultures, and histories out there, and that's where I think we should go.
I realize STO caters to the franchise fan by offering them bits of the familiar, but when has STO been at its best? In my opinion, that happened most often when they took a piece of canon and ran with it. Spectres, What Lies Beneath, the entire Iconian story: they each took a 'fact' of the Trekverse and built a new story based on it.
And that's what I'm hoping from the Gamma Expansion, in whatever form it eventually takes. The Hur'q are convienient, as are a dozen races briefly mentioned in canon. But there are other stories and infinite opportunity to exploit them in the Gamma Quadrant.
This would be awesome.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
And besides, if anything, we're getting ST:TNG. The new full Galaxy interior suggest they're definitely gonna do something major with TNG.
i mean, the tzenkethi arc itself has elements from just about every series
you got late TOS/early TMP with K-13, TNG with sela and finding out what befell tasha yar, and now DS9 with martok, that jem'hadar - hell, the tzenkethi themselves were first mentioned in DS9
and with this upcoming nexus FE, that'll be more TMP/TNG mixed story
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Who was it I chased around the Fire Caves? (Four times with my main for the Chronitons with CrtH.) And those guys who took over DS9?
As I said, known, but unexplored, as in the Federation has maps, but we've never been there.
Directly from lore? I don't recall any Davidians invading True Way or CDF forces in any episode of Trek. I also only recall one homicidal hologram, but The Doctor never haunted the lower decks of Drozana. And as much as I recall the name Iconian associated with some doors to the universe, I don't recall meeting glowy energy beings who held a grudge for longer than humans have been able to use language.
I'd call that taking a bit of lore and running with it. It's okay if you don't, but my point was to show examples of good storylines built on kernels of lore, and I think these are examples. Of course, you might also question my use of the word 'good,' but that's okay too.
There are enough bits of lore to pursue an episode or an expansion. Cryptic has, in the past, built more with far less. The various Borg and Undine arcs come to mind, as does the Nakhul storyline.
This is, in fact, their normal business. They take bits from the TV shows and build stories around them. There are a half-dozen canon Gamma Quadrant races as fully fleshed out as the Nakhul, and a half dozen more with as much mention in the show as Kobalis. There are enough bits to build as much story into the Gamma Quadrant as STO wants.
The question of if they want to go Gamma has not been answered, but that's the only real bar to a Gamma Quadrant expansion.
I'm sorry, but you seem to be picking nits and then intentionally misrepresenting what I said.
It's perfectly fine if you don't like the idea of a Gamma Quadrant expansion. Opinions vary, and we can sometimes agree and sometimes disagree. But my point has been consistent, and my posts speak for themselves.
If it was me I would make the Hur'q a former power in the Gamma Quadrant that disappeared after the Dominion dominated their area of space. They would then team up with and become servitors of the Iconians. The Iconian War is officially over, but T'Ket continues to plan her revenge behind the scenes. T'Ket had taken the Sword of Kahless after she killed Kahless in battle and presented it to the Hur'q leader. They then begin their assault on Dominion space, but the Dominion are too stubborn to admit the Hur'q are too much for them.
It would turn out that the Son'a have continued to secretly move shipments of Ketracel-white to the Dominion because the Hur'q conflict is draining their resources, but after the Son'a facility in the Briar Patch is disrupted during the Alliance's prison break the Dominion lose their shipments and are forced to make contact with the Alliance and explain their predicament.
The Dominion had provided resources to save Earth from the Iconians, so they're calling in a favor and reluctantly requesting aid. The Klingons spearhead the Alliance's push into the Gamma Quadrant because they have a personal grudge against the Hur'q, which ties the Fek'lhri storyline into the whole thing because the Hur'q had created them and unleashed them on the Klingons under the Iconians orders. The Klingons are now ready to take the fight to the Hur'q.
At some point in the story the Klingons should discover the Hur'q leader's possession of the Sword of Kahless and attempt to steal it back. General Martok himself should claim the sword and become Emperor of the Empire, continuing to serve as a figurehead like Kahless while J'mpok still officially rules the Empire.
In the end this conflict will result in us discovering the planet which would eventually become known as "New Khitomer" which will be the location of the signing of the Temporal Accords.
If T'ket is involved, will we be looking for Iconian gateways which are 'off the grid'?
Probably. I'm sure there are lots and lots of gateways unaccounted for. The Iconians did have a presence in the Gamma Quadrant since the discovery of the gateway on Vandros IV.
It was recommended that they don't engage the Dominion, but that doesn't mean T'Ket must adhere to that recommendation. We really don't know the political climate in Dominion space as of now. It would be ironic if the Iconians had infiltrated the Dominion and caused unrest, similar to what the Dominion did to the Alpha/Beta Quadrants years before. It was said that servitors were put in place to prevent the Dominion from discovering Iconian gateways, which means they can be used for a surprise attack. Use the Hur'q to get the Dominion's attention so they pull their forces to a specific location to engage them and then Hur'q forces pour through the gateways all across Dominion space catching them unaware.
Asking for help is not a weakness, especially if they consider it us doing them a favor because they helped us once. The Dominion are powerful to be sure, but they are also aware of it and extremely full of it. The Dominion encountering a powerful enemy doesn't "pussify" them, it only humbles them. It would be good to see their ego knocked down a couple of notches. Besides, we know the Dominion plays nice with the Alliance and sends a representative to witness the signing of the Temporal Accords, so they not only survive this conflict, but also remain peaceful with everyone else. Mutual cooporation now would explain why we continue to play nice in the future.
It's better than saying the Dominion are super duper powerful and then having us kill them with ease like every other species in the game. Wouldn't that "pussify" them even more?
Except as a figurehead he wouldn't have any real power and would just have a comfortable position where he doesn't have to really do anything. His House and J'mpok's House are in a blood feud, but if he accepts the Emperors position while allowing J'mpok to remain in power, he can consider the feud over and help strengthen ties between the Houses.
Besides that, Martok getting his hands on the Sword of Kahless and uniting the Empire would take inspiration from J.G. Hertzler's own novel.
I just wish to address this one tiny point. The rest of your arguments stand on their own merits. But as a Martok fan, I think him taking up the hollow position of Emperor would be a slap in the face of the character. He was a seasoned soldier who held his honour and did his duty without the vanity for titles. Nor the conniving for politics. He was willing to be thrown under the political bus just to keep the focus on the war. If Worf had not practically forced the mantle of the chancellor onto him. He would not have taken even that.
Pander to me by making him lead the Alliance fleets. Do battle with both honour and competence. And live up to his self written legend.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
If Cryptic wants a defeated Dominion that asks for help, they will write it that way. If they want the Dominion to invade they will write that as well. Your assertions are not facts.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My character Tsin'xing