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Can somebody explain to me...? (Intrepid Question)
dderidexwarbird
Member Posts: 35 Arc User
Why does both the T6 Nebula and the T5U Nova have better tactical boff seating then the T6 Intrepid. (One of the many problems with that vessel). Did the developers NEVER WATCH Equinox? Where it was explicitly stated that the Nova Class was a short range science vessel, designed for planetary surveys, it was even directly referred to as the inferior ship.
"Regulation 191 (Article 14) In a combat situation involving more than one ship, command fell to the vessel with tactical superiority". Voyager had tactical superiority and NO, it was not because the Equinox was damaged, it is, the inferior ship to the much larger and more advanced Intrepid class.
So explain to me, in what universe were the devs living in when they gave the Nova a Lieutenant Commander Tactical Slot while lumbering the Intrepid with a Lieutenant slot. Oh and gave the Nova one extra tactical slot which makes NO sense. I understand this game won't be canon but COME ON! These are mistakes, I would expect from 1st year Academy Cadets XD
Why can't the Intrepid and Nova have their current boff layouts switched as that would make a LOT more sense.
"Regulation 191 (Article 14) In a combat situation involving more than one ship, command fell to the vessel with tactical superiority". Voyager had tactical superiority and NO, it was not because the Equinox was damaged, it is, the inferior ship to the much larger and more advanced Intrepid class.
So explain to me, in what universe were the devs living in when they gave the Nova a Lieutenant Commander Tactical Slot while lumbering the Intrepid with a Lieutenant slot. Oh and gave the Nova one extra tactical slot which makes NO sense. I understand this game won't be canon but COME ON! These are mistakes, I would expect from 1st year Academy Cadets XD
Why can't the Intrepid and Nova have their current boff layouts switched as that would make a LOT more sense.
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If we go by what ships were in the show... Just about EVERYTHING except the Nova and Defiant would be a cruiser. Including the Intrepid.
Well... the T5 Galaxy does anyways. The T6 Andromeda is more balanced in terms of BOff layout over the T5 Galaxy.
That... actually makes sense.
Yes, the Andromeda is a massive improvement over the Galaxy for having the Lt.Cmdr. Engineer become an Engineer/Command and the Lt. Tac become a Lt. Cmdr. Tac and the Ensign Engineer a universal.
But, it does sort of need to only be considered at the T5 level, given there is no T6 Nova.
I lot of ships in this game are improperly classified; you think the Akira or Prometheus class are "escorts" akin to the Defiant? No, they're both classified as "Cruisers" (same as the Intrepid).
TL;DR - It's a video game (that barely even attempts to be faithful to franchise that it's based on anymore).
Yes, Voyager was observably in a better state of repair than the Equinox, but the Equinox was still able to hold its own against the supposedly 'superior' ship, so realistically, how 'superior' could Voyager have actually been? Personally, I would argue not at all. I'd argue that the Nova Class, pound for pound, is the superior of the Intrepid Class.
In terms of personal gameplay, I've never got on well with the Intrepid Class, but always find the Nova more enduring and functional. Both in terms of gameplay and the screen canon, I have to rate the Nova as really being the superior to the Intrepid. (and arguably, if that is indeed the case, that would reinforce why Janeway had to pull a madeup regulation out of her rear-shuttlebay to maintain dominance in the situation, rather than submitting to accepting Ransom as a superior officer.)
And as mentioned, the Rhode Island was an even further improvement upon an already badass ship
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When it comes to Sci ships, Tactical seating is overrated.
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l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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true though my point was that one shouldn't try to translate stuff said in dialogue too directly into in-game abilities, as in don't translate "is tactically superior" into "has better tactical seating" as it could also mean "lasts longer in a fight" or countless other things depending on what "tactically superior" means.
Novels are considered soft-canon, and thus considered valid supplemental material, until contradicted by the screen canon. There was no contradiction given, so while the regulation may stand, it really isn't a real regulation, and anyone researching it will discover its spontaneously concocted nature.
Ransom was not attempting to wipe out all the nucleogenic lifeforms everywhere. What he was doing was definitely morally questionable, but it wasn't genocidal, so don't try and throw the word around in the hope that it sticks through usage. Especially not in the defense of someone who was perfectly happy to develop a weapon of mass destruction to use against the Undine, in exchange for safe-passage through Borg Space.
Picking up your roadkill and cooking it, is very different to fitting spikes to the front of your SUV and deliberately taking an off-road detour through a herd of cows
Ransom and his crew were under attack (and rightly so) but only using the bodies of the creatures which attacked the Equinox to boost the engines, not going on some Springtime For Hitler-esque quest for eradication (which Worf freely bragged about the KDF having done to the Tribble homeworld)
Also, your attempt at distraction on moral grounds, fails to address the point made, that even severely damaged, the Equinox was still more than capable of standing up to Voyager, which was in top condition, so pound for pound, the superior vessel.
If the Equinox could give Voyager that much of a good fight in its delapidated condition, and a 'strategist captain' like Ransom in command, consider the outcome of a match between 'assembly-yard fresh' Equinox and Voyager, with Sisko in command of the Equinox and its mooks, and Voyager still crewed by Janeway and her posse... Doesn't require a Betazoid to know which ship I'd put my latinum on to win
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
How DARE someone make sense on the forums!
That doesn't make the base Nova sound like a superior design.
Cross country road trip in a Gremlin vs a Winnebago.
B.
S.
Your entire previous post (and this one) is nothing but exaggeration and the throwing around of loaded buzzwords to try and make a point through the term's shock-triggering value. Sorry, but that isn't a valid debating technique, and while it might have been good enough ten years ago, when people could be bullied and intimidated into silence by such words, it doesn't work anymore, because people are wising up to it, and are not being cowed by the words thrown as moral deflectors, rather than someone actually addressing the point.
No, Ransom and his crew did not 'bait and murder' the aliens, they SUMMONED THEM, and TRIED TO STUDY THEM and the alien HAPPENED TO DIE.
That is not the same thing, as what you're trying to insinuate, by any stretch of the imagination. It's the distinction (legally recognised) between murder and manslaughter. It takes The Intent into account.
It's like those dudes who resorted to cannibalism when their plane went down. Doesn't make them murderers, it means they were Trying To Survive.
That's what Ransom and his crew were trying to do: Survive.
Acts of desperation, not of malice.
Like I said, it's picking up roadkill and cooking it, not deliberately ramming down anything in the way for the lulz.
So no, what Ransom and his crew did, doesn't even come close to the notion of genocide.
Oh, and with regards what is and is not canon, I'm not repeating myself, but will make this further observation: The TNG technical manual 'isn't canon' but it was still referred to by the writers who Wrote Canon, so it's considered as supplemental valid UNTIL contradicted. Not automatically disqualified due to nature of existence.
And as for the tactics Ransom used against Voyager; So what? Is Kirk not considered the guru/mold of how a badass captain is supposed to operate??
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
The Equinox faced DIFFERENT ENEMIES, who were every bit as tough, if not tougher than those encountered by Voyager! It got massively F'd up and lost over half it's crew almost right away! The two journeys are incomparable! (which is strange, as one would think that the route from the Caretaker's Array back to the Federation would be the same (unless they were aiming for different locations innthe Federation, which would indeed allow for two differing routes and different encounters)
Look how Janeway cracked under pressure in a few episodes. The woman did not cope well with stress. The trials Ransom's crew faced in their early days in the Delta Quadrent, would have had Janeway cowering in her ready room sucking her thumb and rocking back and forth!
Again, consider that this was a DAMAGED Nova, and an 'in reasonable condition' Intrepid. Did Voyager completely curb-stomp the Equinox? Y/N? (It did not) Did the Equinox still give Voyager a bloody nose? Y/N? (It did)
So imagine what a shipyard-fresh Nova could do. (Look what the Rhode Island could do)
If Mike Tyson got jumped by a pack of thugs and beaten up, left bleeding and staggering along the street, then a few swings from any Joe Sixpack is going to put him down (because he's not at his best) but any swing from Mike Tyson is still going to give Joe Sixpack a broken nose... Get it?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
In a straight up fair fight the Intrepid class would smoke the Nova class in the normal timeline.
However this game when it comes to ship cannon and abilities is square pegs in round holes.
Is an Excelsior Class really tactically stronger than a Galaxy Class outfitted at the time of launch with the most powerful phaser arrays and largest most rapid firing torpedo tubes ?. (Ofc post FC ships have taken that mantle off the Galaxy)
Is the Prometheus a Sci escort when it was described as a long range tactical cruiser ?
as examples
Basically as mentioned already they took the 3 hero ships from the shows and shoehorned them into a trinity model.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Your claims aren't really supported by canon. Except the bit about the Rhode Island, that's a tough little ship. It's also a 25th century refit from an alternate future, though (just like the STO Nova, except for the 'alternate future' part).
Point three, don't try and tell me 'my logic' with an irrelevant convolution: We're comparing the Intrepid and the Nova, not a Galaxy and a BoP, so Stay on Topic. (For the sake of addressing the point, the Enterprise-D was critically damaged by an out-dated BoP (due to Riker's incompetence in command, such as not immediately ordering a rotation of shield modulation, and delays in returning fire) so yes, under the right circumstances, a 70 year old BoP can be superior to a Galaxy Class, and there is canon evidence of such)
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The fact you argue just about every point I (and others) make in a (any) discussion, could very easily be considered be bullying behaviour. It's a known fact that those who are abused, often become abusers themselves. I hate to break it to you, but you are a forum bully.
I don't have the luxury of immediate access to the episode for review (no Netflix for me) so I can't review it, only go by my own recollections of it.
I don't recall Ransom ordering anyone to intentionally summon other aliens after the first one accidentally died. I do remember them simply being under constant attack, and using the corpses of the aliens which they fought off.
So again, not the same intent as to murder.
In a real life fight (as in potentially to the death), there are no Marquis of Queensbury Rules, there is only the need to do what it takes to survive. In Trek, everything on the ship is a weapon: The tractor beam is a weapon, to rip another ship apart, the transporter is a weapon, to remove vital components, the stored anti-matter is a weapon to be ignited. Push someone into a corner, and they are at their most dangerous. Ransom and his crew, were well and truly in a corner.
I admit, in the literal sense, no.
But. Scaled equally to an Intrepid, and fully functioning, not all smashed apart, then yes, pound for pound, I believe a Nova would be the superior ship. I don't have a tech manual to hand to compare the state, but I'd be willing to wager, that the Nova Class has at least two thirds (maybe even three quarters) the armament of the Intrepid Class, so if scaled to be proportinately sized, would likely be better outfitted. All I'm saying with regards the Nova (and the Rhode Island) is that it punches well above its weight.
The Equinox was in a bad state when it got into its fight with Voyager, but was still capable of handling itself, not just getting curb-stomped. That says something about the ship itself, the competence of the man who was in command, and the crew who served him. What was Janeway's solution were when Voyager got so smashed up in Year of Hell? Order the crew to abandon ship, and then try and ram something. That's nowhere near the same league of command capability or critical thinking. (although I will concede that inconsistent writing, was probably the biggest single flaw in VOY as a series)
And if we were only talking about one one of the 'numbered novels', such as the Titan series, I would agree with you, but this was a novelization of the episode. Variation/additional scenes/perspectives, could quite easily have been scripted material which simply had to be cut for time, or other editing reasons. So we can still apply the 'accurate until contradicted' maxim. Consider Janeway's behaviour in the aired episode: She exposed a Starfleet crewman (not a member of her crew, but still a serving crewman) to almost inevitable attack and death from the aliens, to try and make him talk! So much for 'Starfleet morality' when it comes to getting what she wanted out of the situation. She might as well have tipped him upside down, put a wet rag over his face, and gone with a good old-fashioned waterboarding to get answers. At least Chakotay had the decency to rescue the man and call her out on her behaviour (even if he did go back to his usual position of cuckery right afterwards and serving under her again) Janeway's no 'fainting Maid Marion', railing against Ransom's 'Sheriff of Nottingham'.
As I noted, Ransom and co were forced to do what they did to try and survive. Janeway, on the other hand, would (almost consistently) crack under pressure, or do whatever to get what she wanted, depending on the situation. I know which of the two I would rather serve under.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
The irony of this statement, silver, since it seems you've been arguing just about every point made as well. I suggest everyone stick to the topic at hand and refrain from making accusations towards one another.
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"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
I asked for you to provide proof for claims you made, you admit it was made up and cannot be proven. That's not a logical fallacy, that's you failing the burden of proof. No proof doesn't mean it can't be true, however it does mean it's just speculation that can't be used as fact.
All you can infer from the condition was that Equinox didn't fare as well as Voyager did. Unless they elaborate beyond "We met some people, they took our lunch money", that's all that can be said.
It's a valid comparison with the same circumstances; Ship A was a threat to Ship B because they had the codes to bypass it's shields, not because of the ship. Both times, inside knowledge and/or sabotage was the reason they were a threat, making it invalid as proof of anything except the villains were smart enough to level the playing field before fighting.
Point 2: Janeway's mental state fluctuated from episode to episode, and situation to situation (bad writing) Viewable evidence of on-screen canon, without any behind-the-scenes notes) is simply of someone not coping with the situation, and in many cases (such as the torment of Crewman Lessing) someone just as, if not more, amoral, than Ransom is accused of being. Ransom at least has the justification of utter desperation for survival pushing him and the crew beyond the bounds of civilization (which he likely would not have denied, or he would have been incapable of stopping the disection of Seven, or sacrificing himself and the Equinox) Janeway, on the other hand, as mentioned, her moral stances flipflopped as plot required, which was usually handwaved by 'she's the captain...'
Not for the condition that the Equinox wound up in. That was more than a few instances of getting roughed up by the neighbourhood bully. They should have been able to find some friendly port, in order to make repairs.
It's situationally comparable, yes, but it's still not relevant to the comparison between an Intrepid and a Nova, because that is comparing two specific, individual ships. It doesn't matter if the situation is similar, because it's not discussing those two specific ships
And, as I noted, the example proves that a ship considered inferior to the other, can still get the upper-hand in an engagement, especially when the person in command, is situationally incompetent (Meaning someone who is fully trained and knows what to do, but for some reason, is unable to do so in a particular event) Yes, the Klingons had the Enterprise's shield frequency, but all Riker had to do, was order a random modulation, as in a Borg encounter, and their advantage would have been nullified. The orders to return fire came too slow. He ordered a full spread of torpedos, and Worf fired only one. The Enterprise wasn't desteoyed because the Klingons shot it up, it was destroyed, because Riker failed to take effective steps to immediately stop them continuing to do so.
That entire engagement, realistically, should have ended Riker's career, certainly prevented him from attaining a command of his own (and that's even assuming that Starfleet doesn't have some kind of 'up or out' policy like the US Navy (and it can be demonstrated with the TOS crew, how they, including Kirk, were indeed all promoted off the Enterprise in some way, before being re-deployed together)
So that an obsolete BoP was able to lucky-strike the Enterprise, doesn't mean that the hits the Equinox scored on Voyager, were equally 'lucky-strikes' (consider the cyber-warefare Max and B'Elanna were engaging in, which in game, I think would be considered Intel Powers) Ransom was a good (as in competent) captain, who had a good crew (what was left of them) and a good ship (what was left of it) Janeway just had Plot Armor on her side.
How much more interesting might Voyager have been as a series, had Janeway been killed instead, and Ransom assuming command of Voyager instead...
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth