Hypothesis for discussion: the true difference between PvP and PvE players.

patrickngo

Thesis: there is a difference between PvP players, and PvE players at the extreme ends, and it's one that we should be aware of.

what is the difference?

Willingness to lose, and th e ability to actually handle losing and/or defeat.

This essential factor is missing from the PvE crowd, but is an essential ingredient in turning a mere "I play the game" person into "I will PvP even if my gear sucks" person.

It's the essence of the difference, especially in STO, between the long-targeted demographic that includes the DPS meta addicts, and actual, competitive PvP players.

here's how and why:

to get good at PvP, you lose. You lose because you're facing better players, but you keep coming back.

I don't think the PvE crowd actually understands or grasps this concept, especially at the louder ends that post on t he forums and on Reddit.

PvP players risk losing in every match, they are willing to risk defeat in order to seek victory.

PvE players stick to 'safe' content where no matter what they do, they can't 'lose'. (thus the difference in popularity between Cure Space, and Infected space. You literally can't 'lose' in Infected, but Cure has always had an actual failure condition-this is also why PvEs where failure conditions exist were and are loudly railed against by PvE Guru types- it can fail, it's not 'safe', its possible to actually lose.)

this is also the difference between PvP players, and PvP Trolls.

PvP Trolls react like PvE players when they lose-they get angry, they hurl accusations, they latch onto mechanics they KNOW are broken to 'win' and t hey seek only the easiest, least experienced, or least capable opponents.

this is becaus PvP Trolls are really PvE players, but they're also TRIBBLE.

I'm sure you know a few. When their 'meta' is up, and the game is rebalanced, they run back to PvE to sulk, avoiding challenges and doing only the easiest content to gather the marks to get the next broken bit of gear (or lobi, or whatever it is).

The true PvP Player seeks out risk-seeks out better opponents, seeks out the possibility of defeat-whether it's the True Player in Ker'rat, or Vanilla, or private queues, this creature is willing to have their TRIBBLE stomped just to get a match that's challenging, that makes them think, or pushes their assumptions.

PvE is, decidedly, not this way.

so in the STO ecosystem:

PvE: the dominant species, fears challenge and change, seeks sameness and repetition, is averse to a base level to the very idea that they are no t the be-all/end=all of the game, this creature is the one that lashes out in defeat, and lashes out in victory alike when confronted with any conflict.

PvP Troll: the PvE'er who likes to exploit broken mechanics to abuse other, usually newer or less geared players. It's a variant on the same power-trip that motivates the obnoxious PvE advocates.

PvP Player: seeks out challenges, seeks to develop challengers, risks defeat to make victory more savory, more worthy.


okay, now, tell me I'm wrong-but you better explain why.

risingwolfshadow

Agreed.
It's going to be crucial for the PvP community remaining to be nice, welcoming and helpful to any newcomers to inject new blood into the community.
The good PvPers/the true PvPers need to also gang up and savagely beat the trolls who try and insist on making life miserable for anyone and everyone who's new or trying to have a good match. We need to discourage trolls.

staq16

I'll say that you are partially right - but also risk wandering into the self-aggrandizing mythology of the "true gamer". Why does that matter? Well, I'd argue that it's one of the major factors which has led to the near-death of PVP since 2013. Poor game design and power creep made it possible for players to be PVP trolls; the mythology of the "true gamer" legitimized it, because of course anyone who didn't keep up deserved what they got. The result, a very small and insular PVP cadre with a very high price of entrance. And by price, I don't just mean financial or game resource cost, but also time and commitment. What I'd argue is that your binary view fails to address the "casual middle" in which I'd class myself - players who are quite comfortable with losing (as a kid, I cut my teeth over tabletop wargames where the whole point is that someone was going to lose) but have limits on what we'll put up with. The days when I could afford to commit to weekly fixed-time gaming sessions are long gone, and keeping up with a "latest hotness" gaming model gets old quickly. Ultimately, this is what drove me out of PVP in this game years ago.

I'd agree that it is axiomatic that anyone going into PVP needs to be willing to lose. Equally, only gameplay will actually improve skill. However, this is ultimately only a game and therefore needs to be fun. Drive it into the "work" category and a lot of people who are not insecure control-freaks will simply not bother.

Conversely, will to win is a visible factor in PVE queues. Players who "risk" missions it's possible to fail, or stick with ones which go badly wrong, are showing a similar mindset; accepting the challenge and pressing on. ISA is pretty instructive in this regard; quite often, when a run starts to go bad, several players will leave in what I assume are fits of petulance. These do fit your PVE stereotype above. Others will slog on, doing their best to complete the objectives short-handed.

So; in summary, I think that your hypothesis is not wrong, but an oversimplification; it's also an unhelpful one which ignores the shades of grey between the extremes you describe. And if this game is ever going to recover a significant PVP community, it is going to need to cater to the middle-tier casuals.

sharxtreme

It is a simplified classification, but it is a correct one from my observations.
In PvE you are NOT going against the odds, or in very rare occasions.
In competitive PvP in any game there is also a factor of safety and risk.
Namely, some people like to team up and go against PUGs, and some people like to solo against teams.

So to oversimplify it once again:
Some people have fun in winning through challenge, some have in easy winning.
And of course, some will not have fun no matter how you slice it.

mustrumridcully0

I think that is also a fundamental game design difference.

Only players matter in a computer game. No one roots for the NPCs, in general, and the NPCs themselves don't care, they don't have emotions or feelings and they don't pay the bills either.

In PvP, both sides have players, so it's natural that PvPers will experience losses. That said, one can still design PvP mechanics so that it gives you a fair chance of winning. Balance is one part, the other part can be a decent match-maker - by pitting you against equally good players, you will have a chance to win occasionally.

But PvE needs to be winnable - or at least have some kind of "win" condition that is achievable. There are of course endless-play games where you can't really win - but you can still crack the high score and so see that you got better (regardless of whether you beat your own score or someone else's). There must be some level of challenge, but it can't be enough, since in the end, every player needs to have a feeling of success.

staq16

So, I think a poster on the General Discussion forum has neatly proved the core of Patrickngo's hypothesis:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1230908/think-ill-skip-this-new-competitive-rep-system

- to wit; there is a chunk of the playerbase that doesn't want to do anything except hammer NPCs. Which is fine - there are many ways to have fun - but what's interesting is the tone of the post which suggests they resent being unable to complete the new rep without facing serious opposition.

lordmalak1

There are two kinds of PvP a** woopings- one where the player is so overwhelmed by OP magic and gear it's impossible to compete, and the other where the player spends alot of time shooting, healing, doing his own magic, and running before succumbing to his wounds.

The first one isn't fun and some of the dedicated players don't come back for more. It's usually over before 'the victim' even knew it started, and only teaches a lesson that it was foolish to even try.
The second one might not be fun for all, but does entice many to come back and try again. In loosing there's still a wealth of things to learn, and both players can learn from the encounter.

I don't mind losing, even an unfair encounter. I hate losing when the encounter is so lopsided it gives 'unfair encounter' a new definition.

usskentucky

The true difference between PVP / PVE players: PVP players are better at the game.

There's no "two different games." There are trolls, DPSers, RPers, wallet warriors, and exploiters in both camps. The simple fact of the matter is that PVP is the "endgame." It's what you do when you are sick of CC, ISA, and you've ran every storyline on multiple toons and your grind is down to an efficient science. Upon reaching "Endgame," some people choose to stop evolving as players beyond the fancy colors produced by their weapons. And just like real life when stagnation results in an inability to compete, these "PVEers" take to the forums with their vitriol and backbiting because they are masking incompetence and the fact that they are too lazy to read up on tactics, experiment with new gear, or PUG it out in Ker'rat or the arenas to hone their skills.

The NPCs in this game are no challenge to any serious player, and most daily PVPers can run 80k+ in the queues AND slay other players. The biggest myth going around seems to be that people can only do one or the other--PVP or PVE. The truth is that the loudest people on these forums can do one, but not the other.

PVPstd is real. I've seen it. The first step is admitting you have a problem. The second step is remembering that it's just a game.

usskentucky

And my point gets proven year after year with the same bland, reskinned NPCs to shoot and other players trying to claim some sort of "moral high ground" around their play style, attempting to guilt the PVPers into lowering their standards.

usskentucky

Don't worry, you can still purposefully fail the puzzles on Core Assault to avoid the chamber like some of the other "hardcore" PVEers in this forum.

usskentucky

Yep, same as usual. You assume I care if you PVP or not. And because my statements of truth jeapordize the worldview you hold, one in which you are the center of the universe and no player, NPC, or objective should be able to beat you, your precious little ego has been bruised. I'm not killing PVP, and it is far from dead. People who are afraid to compete are what's holding it back. I'm sure many more people read your posts about how "horrible those evul PvPers are" and never give it a shot than there are people who give up after getting one shotted in Ker'rat. If PVP is suffering, it's because of whiners who need to take emotional health breaks each time they're forced to hit the respawn button. Still not helping? You're right. Community matters. But players like you who don't actually play PVP, yet who paradoxically claim the authority needed to comment on it, are the ones driving people away with nonstop negativity. Just admit it, you secretly want PVP to go away so you can rule over the Borg probes by yourself. Stop hiding behind accusations and trying to cut it down from the outside. It's transparent.

risingwolfshadow

@coldnapalm imbalanced gameplay mechanics and systems create a breeding ground for trolls with daddy's wallet who dont have a lot of skill and just want to give someone a hard time with the least amount of effort.
It was the PvE community who facilitated that environment by demanding the game be made easier, to be given more broken shines and throwing a fit when something broken and overpowered had to be fixed.
Evidence of this was when during season 8 and 8.5 players like thissler who didn't use any broken gear would absolutely wreck face in C&H and arena with a bop, inviting rage and fury from trolls in the chat box.
I and many others did the same. I personally used to hunt trolls and idiots in Ker'rat, wreck them until they shut up and left the zone.

The PvE community however has made it impossible for the good players who are also good people to succeed in the game and kick the idiots out like we used to. It's your fault the game is this way. Don't blame the entire community for the mistakes of loud, lazy PvEers.

P.S. The "see this is why I don't PvP argument" is old and obsolete compared with the "see this is why sto needs to change, it's full of DPSers saying if you haven't got 100k DPS don't queue up!"

risingwolfshadow

@coldnapalm, I'd love to shut idiots up and I still kinda do thanks to the nerfs. Having an imbalanced game makes it extremely difficult.
In season 8.5 it was easy because skill meant a lot more than it does now.
To fix this, the PvE community needs to keep calm and quiet when a balance nerf is called for especially with good evidence to support it. At the end of the day, PvEers don't know the full extent of how powers and equipment interacts because they only test it in ISA not with other players.

Look at the forum rage around tykens at the moment. The ability is extremely overpowered. Not that it wasn't powerful before, it was. But now though, there's no counter, no way to protect yourself. Whoever fires tykens first wins. That's bad for STO but the PvE community will have none of it, all they do is accuse the PvP community of crying for nerfs and saying "ha ha! Not funny now is it. If you don't like it go PvP somewhere else"...


The PvE community is responsible for the state of PvP. Cryptic jut facilitates them.

usskentucky

ColdNapalm can't make an intelligent argument or add anything productive to the conversation, so Plan B: Let's find a way to "shut up" people who have opinions. Let's try to get the other players to gang up on them and shame them into submission. If that doesn't work let's try to get them banned from the game. Last resort? Go to the forums and bash PVP so that new people won't play. Gradually wear it down from the outside through a campaign of psychological warfare. The distance these PVE heroes will go for their cause is amazing. I'm sorry for being such a salty pirate but the facts are the facts. I'm so tired of you fake a$$ forum warriors who never show up in actual queues and battles. I'm a smack talker. And in PVP smack talkers are a dime a dozen. You, ColdPalm, you're toxic and the the decline of the game seems to go hand in hand with allowing people like you to control the conversation through censorship and inadequacy disguised as interest. Do you want someone to tell you it's okay, that you're a precious little teddy bear with all the best skills and capabilities? Keep fishing, doomsayers.