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Flight Speed kills the game

sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,380 Arc User
Many of you know that speed is a bit of an issue in PvP.

I just did a test with a pilot escort on Tribble. I stacked 121 engine power, EPS Power Transfer, Emergency Power to Engines 3, Evasive Maneuvers, an a Deuterium Burn, at an Impulse Expertise of just 70, with the new Competitive Reputation Space Set's engine bonus of +350% for activating a firing mode, and got to a flight speed of 495. That is roughly 15 km/s. And this was just a quickly improvised test. I am sure we could get that number higher by minmaxing the excrement out of it.

Granted, that was just a short burst of speed. I can keep her constantly at 130 (roughly 4 km/s), though.

But the game's Universal Weapon Range is only 10 km!

At the start of the game, lieutenant level with a standard issue engine in a Miranda class frigate at 50 engines power, your flight speed is 12.5 (just under 0.4 km/s), with the ability to go to a short burst of 35 (just above 1km/s).

So the game's range to speed ratio goes from 25 almost down to 2.5, with "range" to "burst speed" ratio going from 10 to 0,67. Why is that ratio relevant? Because that ratio is the time in seconds that you have to react to an opponent who is close to you before he's out of range. If that opponent is at the edge of your firing range, double that time, but then halve it again if you are both approaching each other - you can of course think of all kinds of things to do with such ratios, like flying parallel and suddenly change course, etc, but the point is: You need damn fast reflexes to work with such speeds in space combat!

In effect, these range-to-speed ratios are turning the game from a spaceship command game (captains in their 30s to 50s giving verbal orders to their crews) into a space fighter game (pilots in their 20s using the control stick of an airplane-like craft).

I am not in my 20s (and haven't been for quite some time). I know that most players I regularly interact with here on the forums and in the game aren't in their 20s either. Which makes sense, given that this is a game about TV shows that were made 20 to 50 years ago. I know I just can't keep up with that kind of reaction speed. Maybe I once could, but not these days. Human biology science isn't advanced enough for that yet. And even if I could keep up with it - would I choose a Star Trek game to emulate such types of combat, or wouldn't that be better placed in a space fighter game about small agile craft?

Now, you may believe that there should be a place for such fast ships in this game. That's okay, I am fine with that. But given the likely player demograpics, then it should be worth considering to at least put the range-to-speed ratio closer to the one that the game was originally designed for. In other words, then the range of the weapons should be increased. And if anyone would want to do that, the range increase would have to be to about 150 km (!) for ships that really want it, if you want to keep closer to the original design parameters of the game. Even if you shrug off the extremely stacked bursts of speed and limit yourself to base speed, you'd have to increase the range to at least 40 km (unless cycling two copies of EPTE3 is a burst for you).

Maybe it would be easier to, well... apply diminishing returns to speed increases? After all, e=1/2m^v²...

Or does a significant paying portion of the player base want to play a game were 0,67 seconds is considered an acceptable required reaction time, including latency?

If so, I'd like to know.



Post edited by sophlogimo on
DPS derives from gear, and gear alone.

Comments

  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    I'm in my 20s but I'd rather they slow down the ships not increase the firing range.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Or does a significant paying portion of the player base want to play a game were 0,67 seconds is considered an acceptable required reaction time, including latency?

    Just remember that the 2/3rds of a second reaction time applies to both the target and the player that's running at these ridiculous speeds...

    And I don't recall any player that can be vaped in less than a second, especially by someone who's diverting the level of resources into attaining that speed...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,380 Arc User
    Is this to say, Dareau, that the speeds in the game at endgame are fine for you? If so, why?
    DPS derives from gear, and gear alone.
  • maddscottmaddscott Member Posts: 147 Arc User
    Interesting read... However,

    What I find interesting is in any PvE, FE, story Arc, while in the mission space, the "Speed" graph indicates full, however, when I hover over the speed indicator, it only indicates between 25.5 and 33.4% Impulse speed.

    So, cruising at what appears to be max speed just before "Full Impulse" usually indicates I'm traveling a 1/4 - 1/3 Impulse, even tho the graph shows it to be full, or at least 99.9% Impulse..

    And nope, not talking about the burst speed that drains all the energy, just cruising from/to mission objectives and and targets..

    So maybe, the Devs have included a "speed-brake" so we don't/can't complete the missions and just sit and wait for the times to burn down ??

    tyvm..
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,380 Arc User
    The number you get from a mouseover isn't a percentage, it is the flight speed stat. To convert this into a rough km/s value, multiply by 0.03.
    DPS derives from gear, and gear alone.
  • daviddxxdaviddxx Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    The Speed is to much.. a cap would be nice.
    Regarts
    David
    fIDFtkM.gif
    Star Trek Online
    *** Aktiv since 03.06.10 ***
  • kyle223catkyle223cat Member Posts: 566 Arc User
    Yeah it's always fun trying to keep up with the escorts (and even science players) on your team as a healer. :D
    star-trek-enterprise-animated-gif-33.gif
  • furyan#5289 furyan Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Many of you know that speed is a bit of an issue in PvP.

    I just did a test with a pilot escort on Tribble. I stacked 121 engine power, EPS Power Transfer, Emergency Power to Engines 3, Evasive Maneuvers, an a Deuterium Burn, at an Impulse Expertise of just 70, with the new Competitive Reputation Space Set's engine bonus of +350% for activating a firing mode, and got to a flight speed of 495. That is roughly 15 km/s. And this was just a quickly improvised test. I am sure we could get that number higher by minmaxing the excrement out of it.

    Granted, that was just a short burst of speed. I can keep her constantly at 130 (roughly 4 km/s), though.

    But the game's Universal Weapon Range is only 10 km!

    At the start of the game, lieutenant level with a standard issue engine in a Miranda class frigate at 50 engines power, your flight speed is 12.5 (just under 0.4 km/s), with the ability to go to a short burst of 35 (just above 1km/s).

    So the game's range to speed ratio goes from 25 almost down to 2.5, with "range" to "burst speed" ratio going from 10 to 0,67. Why is that ratio relevant? Because that ratio is the time in seconds that you have to react to an opponent who is close to you before he's out of range. If that opponent is at the edge of your firing range, double that time, but then halve it again if you are both approaching each other - you can of course think of all kinds of things to do with such ratios, like flying parallel and suddenly change course, etc, but the point is: You need damn fast reflexes to work with such speeds in space combat!

    In effect, these range-to-speed ratios are turning the game from a spaceship command game (captains in their 30s to 50s giving verbal orders to their crews) into a space fighter game (pilots in their 20s using the control stick of an airplane-like craft).

    I am not in my 20s (and haven't been for quite some time). I know that most players I regularly interact with here on the forums and in the game aren't in their 20s either. Which makes sense, given that this is a game about TV shows that were made 20 to 50 years ago. I know I just can't keep up with that kind of reaction speed. Maybe I once could, but not these days. Human biology science isn't advanced enough for that yet. And even if I could keep up with it - would I choose a Star Trek game to emulate such types of combat, or wouldn't that be better placed in a space fighter game about small agile craft?

    Now, you may believe that there should be a place for such fast ships in this game. That's okay, I am fine with that. But given the likely player demograpics, then it should be worth considering to at least put the range-to-speed ratio closer to the one that the game was originally designed for. In other words, then the range of the weapons should be increased. And if anyone would want to do that, the range increase would have to be to about 150 km (!) for ships that really want it, if you want to keep closer to the original design parameters of the game. Even if you shrug off the extremely stacked bursts of speed and limit yourself to base speed, you'd have to increase the range to at least 40 km (unless cycling two copies of EPTE3 is a burst for you).

    Maybe it would be easier to, well... apply diminishing returns to speed increases? After all, e=1/2m^v²...

    Or does a significant paying portion of the player base want to play a game were 0,67 seconds is considered an acceptable required reaction time, including latency?

    If so, I'd like to know.



    I think ship speeds should be lowered or have some kind of downside to accuracy. Maybe Cryptic could make accuracy inversely proportional to speed. Defense is directly proportional to speed which makes it harder for your opponent to hit you if you're going fast. This makes someone going fast more accurate than someone going slow. Shouldn't it be just as hard to shoot a basketball from a moving vehicle into a stationary hoop as it is to shoot a basketball from a stationary position into a hoop mounted on a moving vehicle? Now this idea makes it harder for two players to hit eachother if they are going fast, but high defense due to speed already does this. Making accuracy inversely proportional to speed removes the accuracy bonus a faster player gets due to the slower player's lower defense. I know this idea doesn't take into account relative position, but neither does the idea of defense in-game. I didn't put a lot of thought into this idea, so it might have an oversight.
  • furyan#5289 furyan Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    I edited my post, and it disapeared. So I had to quote you to get it to repost.
  • hoffy1hoffy1 Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    Not shure if it is really an 'isseu' that needs to be 'fixed'

    Let me explain, if players fly really fast, they have almost no time to actually shoot there guns, so the end result is they fly really fast, and hardly do any damage. Making them basically just a nuisance like a mosquito.
    Same goes for PvE, they can fly really fast, but its difficult to combine that with actual DPS output. Its just one of those novelty builds, like mine layers, turtles that think they are tanks, sorts like that.

    Also, they can be easily taken down, hit it with a few (engine) drain abilities, and they are dead in there tracks ready to be squashed.
    These days people just want to put a cap on everything, instead of using some ingenuity.
  • risingwolfshadowrisingwolfshadow Member Posts: 619 Arc User
    I have a fast build on my Defiant that can keep up with a pilot ship in Ker'rat and trust me I can lay down that fire power. Especially on similarly fast ships. I can also cripple a player's cruiser and be out of their firing range in 2-3 seconds making sure that they can't retaliate and waste their buffs.
    It's not very fair on them, cruisers or players in general and I'd be happy if they slowed things down a little bit.
  • sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,380 Arc User
    edited April 2017
    hoffy1 wrote: »
    Not shure if it is really an 'isseu' that needs to be 'fixed'

    Let me explain, if players fly really fast, they have almost no time to actually shoot there guns, so the end result is they fly really fast, and hardly do any damage. Making them basically just a nuisance like a mosquito.
    Same goes for PvE, they can fly really fast, but its difficult to combine that with actual DPS output. Its just one of those novelty builds, like mine layers, turtles that think they are tanks, sorts like that.

    Also, they can be easily taken down, hit it with a few (engine) drain abilities, and they are dead in there tracks ready to be squashed.
    These days people just want to put a cap on everything, instead of using some ingenuity.

    I am sorry to have to say that, but you have no clue what you are talking about. Please, go play a few PvP matches. Alternatively, hang out in Ker'rat a bit and apply the tactics you propose to the players there. But don't be too disappointed when you explode while waiting for your power drain to kick in.
    • Burst of damage in this game are high enough to kill a player within a second.
    • Slowing down an opponent with holds and roots who uses Attack Pattern Omega is basically impossible.
    • Draining the power of an enemy ship's engines takes time. Which is what you don't have, because if the opponent is slowed down at all, you will only observe that when the ship is out of range and very likely still faster than your drain build, unless you are just as fast, which bring us to the lightning reflexes again.
    • Lightning reflexes may be what some players in their teens and early twenties have, but the game's biggst and wealthiest target demographic doesn't.

    These days, too many people dismiss problems just because they don't understand them.
    DPS derives from gear, and gear alone.
  • daviddxxdaviddxx Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    I try to fly with my Sci allways so fast as possible.. 300-400 Impuls.. but even than some escorts just fly with 500-600 so you got no chance to attack them. Some Guys got a cloak aswell.. that meens..

    Flying with 600 Impuls.. declaok for a sec. fire TRIBBLE.. placate or someting else ( aux2sif+doff, lamda ) fly away cloak again. bye. I dont know.. .

    A cap for speed would be nice.. a bigger cd for cloak would be nice aswell. B)

    my 2 cents ..
    Regarts
    David
    fIDFtkM.gif
    Star Trek Online
    *** Aktiv since 03.06.10 ***
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