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How did you learn to do Advanced STFs?

sinn74sinn74 Member Posts: 1,149 Arc User
I'm curious about this, with the recent AFK penalty problems (both legitimate and imagined) with STFs.

There is a very real problem with people queueing for Advanced STFs, and having no idea what they're doing. This has the potential for being frustrating for entire teams, as there is a very real risk of failure. This also turns the queues into wastelands. People are tired of failure from people contributing next to nothing (either due to lack of familiarity, sub-optimal builds, or straight trolling), and ONLY join premade groups.

There is also the fact that, in order to obtain items vital for advancing to the next level, one almost is required to do these things. If you want x set, you have to get x items, right?

I sometimes forget that I was/am lucky enough to have been taken into these things with my fleet, and from my friends list. "I know you haven't done it. I have, and I can make up for it. Don't worry about it, let's go." Luckily for me, I've almost always had that luxury. Otherwise, I just wouldn't do them.Honestly, I still haven't tried Korfez for that reason (although I do have the "You need to do this with us" thing happening).

I have been testing PUGs at random, and there is always at least one person doing 2k DPS or less. Always. Before anyone cringes at the mention of damage per second, this is what a Science captain can do with no weapons slotted, using only Photonic Fleet.

Cryptic will not change the STFs so people can get their rewards by staying at their level. They seem to not want to offer alternatives.

So, how does everyone else do these for the first few times- until they are proficient enough to queue for these on their own? I'm genuinely curious about this. Something, somewhere needs to change.
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  • stuart1965stuart1965 Member Posts: 691 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Becoming better at STF's is a learning curve,it takes time.
    Eventually you upgrade all weapons and consoles to the highest you can get them, to obtain decent dps.Its also down to your respec skill levels too
  • raidcontrollerraidcontroller Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I would assume that this is the purpose of Normal queues. The problem is since this release the queues have been dead for a number of reasons. Primarily that the rewards vs time taken simply makes other activities more profitable, faster. Anyway my point is queues are exceptionally borked because while you can easily join a CCA. Ever try to join a normal one? Not going to happen unless you come with your own team.

    From what I have read, Cryptic deliberately raised new content xp while lowering it everywhere else in the game, same can be said for rewards. As long as they insist on hearding players to the content they want run, queues will remain a thing of the past.
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Yes, there are many people now doing about the same as a carrier frigate.

    I've noticed more and more people bailing in ISA when the first enemies aren't cleared in 20 seconds. These are groups that would have finished the mission with 3 minutes left on optional but that's not good enough I guess.

    I learned by trial and error over a long period of time. I do read whatever I can find but not always is this easy to find. Also, you do learn more from experience. Now there is no way for players to learn as they are booted by the fail conditions. Eventually they will quit before really getting into the game. I guess this doesn't matter to Cryptic.
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  • sinn74sinn74 Member Posts: 1,149 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    stuart1965, raidcontroller

    So, where did you both start with them?

    I've run Advanced content quite a bit. I'm curious as to how everyone else starts doing Advanced/Elite queues.
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I usually play normal missions for a while, earning marks to get the reputation systems running and earn some dilithium for a few upgrades.

    I don't go into advanced before I've got at least a few reputation traits and at least mk xii purple gear (either from exchange or from that one episode which gives a mk 12 deflector, shield and engine).

    When I join an advanced queue for the first time, I make sure I'm specialised, either doing a lot of damage, or focussing on crowd control with things like gravity wells. Or building my ships such that I can heal my team mates (heals like Aux to structural and engineering team are free after all and don't require any investment) while they take care of the DPS part.
  • cromarty1cromarty1 Member Posts: 138 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    sinn74 wrote: »
    I'm curious about this, with the recent AFK penalty problems (both legitimate and imagined) with STFs.

    There is a very real problem with people queueing for Advanced STFs, and having no idea what they're doing. This has the potential for being frustrating for entire teams, as there is a very real risk of failure. This also turns the queues into wastelands. People are tired of failure from people contributing next to nothing (either due to lack of familiarity, sub-optimal builds, or straight trolling), and ONLY join premade groups.

    There is also the fact that, in order to obtain items vital for advancing to the next level, one almost is required to do these things. If you want x set, you have to get x items, right?

    I sometimes forget that I was/am lucky enough to have been taken into these things with my fleet, and from my friends list. "I know you haven't done it. I have, and I can make up for it. Don't worry about it, let's go." Luckily for me, I've almost always had that luxury. Otherwise, I just wouldn't do them.Honestly, I still haven't tried Korfez for that reason (although I do have the "You need to do this with us" thing happening).

    I have been testing PUGs at random, and there is always at least one person doing 2k DPS or less. Always. Before anyone cringes at the mention of damage per second, this is what a Science captain can do with no weapons slotted, using only Photonic Fleet.

    Cryptic will not change the STFs so people can get their rewards by staying at their level. They seem to not want to offer alternatives.

    So, how does everyone else do these for the first few times- until they are proficient enough to queue for these on their own? I'm genuinely curious about this. Something, somewhere needs to change.

    I think you are saying if one cannot reach the new standard of 12k that can be dune now without rep gear don't do advanced or elite stfs that's gets a auto fail for everyone
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I learned in pugs, in some instances I saw one or two people doing it right and copied, others I watched the team doing it wrong (in my perception) and thus making no progress so I tried doing something else which was more successful.
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  • sinn74sinn74 Member Posts: 1,149 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    cromarty1 wrote: »
    I think you are saying if one cannot reach the new standard of 12k that can be dune now without rep gear don't do advanced or elite stfs that's gets a auto fail for everyone

    Actually, what I'm saying, is "How did you start queuing for Advanced/Elite content." Everyone starts somewhere. I'm interested in everyone's where. And how. Not sure where you got that from.
  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,412 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I no longer see it a problem. Let advanced pugs be full of fail, which is what makes them advanced. If those coming in after DR managed somehow to level up after following many varying storyline objectives, yet don't bother seeing mission objectives failure after failure months in a row, they should not have access to that tier reputation gear.

    There are many ways to acquire reputation gear on those that don't require any advanced-level pugs, so it's no a question of not having access to gear to properly do advanced pugs. Anyone can definitely work their way into it, even if not directly with a 'higher' rep tier.

    Of course, when it comes to one team member dragging everyone else down, which is often what happens in endless forms, such as idling, quitting (if it isn't disconnecting), not working as a team, not following objectives, neglecting any form of communication, etc. etc.

    The obvious solution to that is to make friends with those that do make great team members, find fleets that are effective, and work with them as much as possible.
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  • age03age03 Member Posts: 1,664 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I learned to do them before all the changes were made with the introduction of rep.I preferred it that way.It also forced you do to ground missions which are fun and very cooperative.

    It felt like the Feds and KDF were working toward a common goal.

    You could of bought and sold edcs and rarae borg salvage throught the exchange.
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  • roadghostroadghost Member Posts: 394 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The best way to learn advanced it to do the normals a ton. Usually in the normals things move a bit slower and you can ask questions about advanced tactics there, read the walkthroughs online as well. Don't be in huge rush to get to the advanced. Normals are a lot more fun if you are pug'ing. Advanced pugs tend to fall apart more often than not right now. Maybe after everyone finishes grinding out their Level 60's you will start seeing pugs that can speed run advanced STFs again. But it's not happening often presently. If your goal in life it to be a death dealing Elite STF'r, then join a fleet and only do the advanced with fleet members.
  • age03age03 Member Posts: 1,664 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    There is one other thing I would say make sure your skills are set right for both space and grounnd and amkes sure your charactor and ship have the right equipment.
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  • sinn74sinn74 Member Posts: 1,149 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Does everyone think the way they did/do it is the way everyone should do it? I think it was far more forgiving to try and "wing it" pre-DR.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I didn't, as I don't really need to do them.

    Not done one in well over a year, tbh.
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  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    sinn74 wrote: »
    Does everyone think the way they did/do it is the way everyone should do it? I think it was far more forgiving to try and "wing it" pre-DR.

    I may have been a bit more opportunistic before the release of DR.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    sinn74 wrote: »
    Does everyone think the way they did/do it is the way everyone should do it?

    Well everyone's first instinct is to go back to the "tactics" but I know for CSA it didn't work, between the BoP's newfound HP and the spheres they added it was a sure route to fail, the best way to do it when it went live was to leave the Kang and hit all three shipyards at the same time in a 2/1/2 formation, the Kang's HP buff would carry it through while you ripped the unbuffed shipyards to shreds along with the spheres, then someone could run back to the Kang, get it out of the resulting hellhole and clean up. Then they nerfed everything's HP because this wasn't getting through to people and now the old RML tactic works again.

    The problem is that players are too slow to learn tactics for slightly changed scenarios, the result being the majority of players banging their head against HP walls and blaming the devs and the dps folk for their problems.

    That said, KASA and ISA seem to be very much unchanged and ultimately dps still rules.
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  • eighrichteeighrichte Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Reading this with interest.

    I started the game this past spring. Ran a lot of advanced Conduits. I'd say the pugs got the optional objectives about 75% of the time. I have no idea how much damage I do — haven't found a meter that works for the Mac client, though perhaps there is one.

    Now I suddenly find myself in need of five borg processors for a new ship build, and I'm completely reluctant to jump into an advanced PUG. I have no idea whether I can pull my weight, and I don't want to be the guy who wastes the group's time. I had a successful normal conduit run last night (I've never done any others — again, don't want to be that guy); saw the telltale sign in which someone was destroying the nearest generator before anyone was even in range of the other three, and went into cc mode to hold the nanite spheres back. Whether that helped or not, I don't know, but we got the optionals.

    But could I contribute in advanced? Don't know, and it's a chicken and egg problem. I can't find out without trying, and that risks putting four other people on cooldown if it turns out I'm not up to it.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    eighrichte wrote: »
    But could I contribute in advanced? Don't know, and it's a chicken and egg problem. I can't find out without trying, and that risks putting four other people on cooldown if it turns out I'm not up to it.

    What's your build? If you're playing a sci ship then I would suggest you keep a grav well and a copy of tractor repulsors handy and you should be fine for holding back the spheres etc, which if you're in a slow run is the single most important job going.
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  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    eighrichte wrote: »
    Reading this with interest.

    I started the game this past spring. Ran a lot of advanced Conduits. I'd say the pugs got the optional objectives about 75% of the time. I have no idea how much damage I do — haven't found a meter that works for the Mac client, though perhaps there is one.

    Now I suddenly find myself in need of five borg processors for a new ship build, and I'm completely reluctant to jump into an advanced PUG. I have no idea whether I can pull my weight, and I don't want to be the guy who wastes the group's time. I had a successful normal conduit run last night (I've never done any others — again, don't want to be that guy); saw the telltale sign in which someone was destroying the nearest generator before anyone was even in range of the other three, and went into cc mode to hold the nanite spheres back. Whether that helped or not, I don't know, but we got the optionals.

    But could I contribute in advanced? Don't know, and it's a chicken and egg problem. I can't find out without trying, and that risks putting four other people on cooldown if it turns out I'm not up to it.


    equip gravity well and tractor repulsors. save them to control the spheres 2 times. If your group doesn't quit you should be able to complete the mission - contribute a valuable asset and get your processors.

    The success rate on ISA is now reasonable. I have great crowd control so mine is close to 100% but you should still succeed at least 75%
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  • battykoda0battykoda0 Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Back in the day there wasn't as much rage. People could tell you were new to STF and many times would tell you what needs done as you moved to the next spot or would subtly guide you. After, they would explain your mistakes and even praise your insights. If you were gracious and eager when they did, they would take you on more simply to show you how to do them. Today it seems it's easier to yell NOOB and storm off and leave the new guy clueless to repeat it again.
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  • sinn74sinn74 Member Posts: 1,149 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    eighrichte wrote: »
    Reading this with interest.

    I started the game this past spring. Ran a lot of advanced Conduits. I'd say the pugs got the optional objectives about 75% of the time. I have no idea how much damage I do — haven't found a meter that works for the Mac client, though perhaps there is one.

    Now I suddenly find myself in need of five borg processors for a new ship build, and I'm completely reluctant to jump into an advanced PUG. I have no idea whether I can pull my weight, and I don't want to be the guy who wastes the group's time. I had a successful normal conduit run last night (I've never done any others — again, don't want to be that guy); saw the telltale sign in which someone was destroying the nearest generator before anyone was even in range of the other three, and went into cc mode to hold the nanite spheres back. Whether that helped or not, I don't know, but we got the optionals.

    But could I contribute in advanced? Don't know, and it's a chicken and egg problem. I can't find out without trying, and that risks putting four other people on cooldown if it turns out I'm not up to it.

    There are options. Videos on YouTube that show people doing it. You can post your build (as suggested above). But I completely agree with sheldonlcooper- you kind of can't get a feel for them unless you're actually doing it.

    In my opinion, the best advice is to go with a team of people that do it all the time. There may be a better way, but that's what I've always done. A good fleet or friends list is very advantageous in that regard.
  • donowickdonowick Member Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Our fleet will show new players tactics on STFs and help them set ship up to do better. When ever we get a new member we try to do STFs to show him how and see how he does and help them out. We do this in a nice and polite way and never put them down for low dps because we were there once. Some of the new players are surprised how easy the STFs are when using good tactics lol. :)
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    age03 wrote: »
    I learned to do them before all the changes were made with the introduction of rep.I preferred it that way.It also forced you do to ground missions which are fun and very cooperative.

    It felt like the Feds and KDF were working toward a common goal.

    You could of bought and sold edcs and rarae borg salvage throught the exchange.

    I also did them before rep, but unlike you I loathed that system. I am one who did hundreds of runs over several months and got nothing. Well, not quite nothing, I got three mark 10 items. I never got any of the required drops for mark 12 gear or sets. Less than a month after rep was out I had set items on all my characters that were working on rep. The old system can stay in the hell I deeply hope it ended up in.

    @the OP

    As for learning how not to suck, a fleetmate taught me the basics and the rest I learned by trying and by watching those who are more successful than me. Instead of criticizing, making excuses, or beating my head on the same enemy using the same technique I ask questions and emulate successful strategies and builds.

    When delta rising was on tribble I took my second weakest and my strongest characters to the test server and played all the missions and new queues. There were mostly positive helpful people. Took a while but I was doing great by the end of the second week even using a mirror ship with a mix of Mk 11 and 12 gear. Then when it went live I helped my fleets run successful queues.
  • eighrichteeighrichte Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    adamkafei wrote: »
    What's your build? If you're playing a sci ship then I would suggest you keep a grav well and a copy of tractor repulsors handy and you should be fine for holding back the spheres etc, which if you're in a slow run is the single most important job going.

    I'm transitioning from a Vesta to a Sarr Theln. Trying a torpedo boat setup (one omni beam for subsystem targeting, three torps front, two cluster torps back, a pair of purple projectile doffs). Have gravity well 3 with chance for aftershock and chance for disable engines, and repulsors 1, and was able to hold both groups back effectively...but that was normal mode.

    Here's where I'm at so far; I have plans to move some skill points around and equipment upgrades are in progress. (The epic torp has a spread proc, not a HY proc, but the skill planner doesn't have that option.) Also plan to replace the Breen deflector with the adapted MACO deflector (that's what the processors are needed for), and then swap either the shields or engine over to Breen to maintain the 2-set torp bonuses.

    http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=hailstorm_8037
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Simple - reading around the subject, figure stuff out, learn from those who went before. If you can fly straight you never need to move beyond Mission reward gear, you can clear anything that actually starts on that.

    In fact, given a good enough pilot you can build a ship on Mk XII gear capable of soloing ISA and never actually run any STF to get any of your equipment.


    It is the piloting bit which is what causes issues...
  • darramouss1darramouss1 Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    With the old STFs I did the basic ones a number of times. I then asked players in my fleet, people who had been playing longer than me, for tips, did some premades and the rest is history.

    With the newer ones, I did the basic versions a number of times, talked about it with my fleet mates and formulated strategies, as well as reading what people on the forums had to say.

    In regards to being in an advanced PUG match, as soon as the mission gets to the stage where it hasn't yet failed but it's impossible for it not to fail, I bail on the match. I'd rather start the countdown before I can do it again a few minutes earlier rather than later. I don't have unlimited time to play.

    Seeing people who have no idea how to play ruin a run for other people really sucks. Sometimes you can see someone has no idea and you try to be supportive and constructive by saying something like "Hey, JoeBlow, can you please do task XYZ?" Sometimes they do it and you win and everything is cool. You end up having a chat to them after the match, do a few more matches together and have fun. Other times they either ignore you and ruin the match for everyone or abuse you. And ruin the match for everyone.

    What is needed is a system that rates and ranks people and prohibits the people from queueing a advanced unless they meet a certain points amount. If you fail too many times you drop points and have to build them up again to queue advanced. The point system would not prohibit private matches from being started, though. Something like this would be a pain in the backside for the short term but would benefit the player community as a whole by a) giving the players who know what they're doing a better run and more enjoyment, and b) ensure that players who don't know what they're doing have to actually learn to play the match before they ruin it for others.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    eighrichte wrote: »
    I'm transitioning from a Vesta to a Sarr Theln. Trying a torpedo boat setup (one omni beam for subsystem targeting, three torps front, two cluster torps back, a pair of purple projectile doffs). Have gravity well 3 with chance for aftershock and chance for disable engines, and repulsors 1, and was able to hold both groups back effectively...but that was normal mode.

    Here's where I'm at so far; I have plans to move some skill points around and equipment upgrades are in progress. (The epic torp has a spread proc, not a HY proc, but the skill planner doesn't have that option.) Also plan to replace the Breen deflector with the adapted MACO deflector (that's what the processors are needed for), and then swap either the shields or engine over to Breen to maintain the 2-set torp bonuses.

    http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=hailstorm_8037

    Well I don't have anything down for the Sarr Theln but for Vesta configs you might want to look at these http://www.kaysvaultofstuff.com/vesta.html and find one that will suit you, apart from any pvp builds I don't use rep gear on these.
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  • fmgtorres1979fmgtorres1979 Member Posts: 1,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    When what they called Advanced now was Elite, I learned them by reading about it and then trying them out. Firstly on Normal, then trying Elite to look at the differences in practice and paying attention to what some people whould say in chat.

    I don't do Advanced because I refuse to remove fun out of my gameplay.
  • olliereportolliereport Member Posts: 721
    edited December 2014
    no learning involved, zero none




    mk 12 gear -> fail city

    mk 14 gear -> mostly wins, except when pug-teamed with people who haven't upgraded




    the difficulty turned out not to be difficulty at all, it was just mounds of shield and hull that required people to upgrade to feed the system

    we spend $$ for zen for dilthium for upgrade
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