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Is Advanced too hard? No.
sinn74
Member Posts: 1,149 Arc User
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8eHqtnuypQ&feature=youtu.be
Infected Space Advanced.
I used a fresh 50. DOFF-leveled. No Episode or rep gear. (that means no space sets, or even Pirate Distress Call).
I spent about 100k EC for garbage gear off the exchange.
I hadn't even trained my BOFFs until right before I did this, and not until I saw which weapons I would get (plasma dual cannons). The fore torpedo, and all aft weapons are the standard one that came with the level 40 free ship I used (MK VIII?). I didn't even set my tray (which you can tell, because I spent a lot of time searching for things).
There is one other fresh 50 on the team.
I spent 1 (one) minute looking for a team on the 10k DPS channel. The people who joined me did not know I was using an undergeared character until just before we started, and none left, or were condescending.
I don't know if it was the recorder I used, but the lag was godawful. By no means use this as a teaching tool, because I'm surprised I was even able to target anything. You can see that I click skills, and nothing happens. The lag was that bad.
Completed. I honestly gimped myself as much as possible (purposefully) for this.
No team of Scimitars from the 30k DPS channel (to which I don't have access anyway). Absolutely nothing pre-planned whatsoever.
Character: RSin'n@sinn74 so you can look at the gateway and see the LOL gear.
Thanks to the 10k DPS people who helped!
Infected Space Advanced.
I used a fresh 50. DOFF-leveled. No Episode or rep gear. (that means no space sets, or even Pirate Distress Call).
I spent about 100k EC for garbage gear off the exchange.
I hadn't even trained my BOFFs until right before I did this, and not until I saw which weapons I would get (plasma dual cannons). The fore torpedo, and all aft weapons are the standard one that came with the level 40 free ship I used (MK VIII?). I didn't even set my tray (which you can tell, because I spent a lot of time searching for things).
There is one other fresh 50 on the team.
I spent 1 (one) minute looking for a team on the 10k DPS channel. The people who joined me did not know I was using an undergeared character until just before we started, and none left, or were condescending.
I don't know if it was the recorder I used, but the lag was godawful. By no means use this as a teaching tool, because I'm surprised I was even able to target anything. You can see that I click skills, and nothing happens. The lag was that bad.
Completed. I honestly gimped myself as much as possible (purposefully) for this.
No team of Scimitars from the 30k DPS channel (to which I don't have access anyway). Absolutely nothing pre-planned whatsoever.
Character: RSin'n@sinn74 so you can look at the gateway and see the LOL gear.
Thanks to the 10k DPS people who helped!
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
While I may point out that you did get carried a bit, I think Advanced is definitely much better after the recent patch.
The rewards of dilithium still got nerfed though, and that's really the only bad part about them now.
yeah, is your sarcasm detector tingling? it should be. i looove posts like these in any mmo.
'i did this content that i've done thousands of times with people who have done it thousands of times with junk gear to prove how it's not hard.'
you were carried, anyone can be carried...or was that your point? they aren't difficult if you get team mates who can carry you?
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
Seriously, this forum is starting to look like the political parties where I live and their demagogic ramblings against one another.
In 1 minute, I found a team. No preplanning.
2 fresh 50s. No remarkable gear.
3 people from the lowest DPS channel (10k).
People think this is "hard," when even 2 people without any decent gear were "carried" (as you say yourself) by people from the lowest DPS channel.
I had never used this character since level 14. The only missions I ran were the 1-14 missions. It's not even just undergeared. I didnt even set my tray.
6k-ish DPS with absolutely no forethought, building, or attention to the character whatsoever. The STF requires 8k.
(6k + 10K) / 2 = ?k
ikr, and they wonder why there has to be a cooldown for posting :P
That said, I'm not surprised with his findings. The issue we're having with advanced now isn't that it's too hard... per say. I mean his findings are clear that it's still possible for a 40k+ team to win advanced, even when 1 person is bringing them down, simply because they know the game, and know it well.
This isn't anything new really, and I think everyone is in agreement. Advanced isn't too hard for everyone, and it certainly isn't too hard for pre-mades... even when they carry 1 or 2 teammates.
I'm thinking now the issue with Advanced really isn't that it's too hard to or easy... but that it's too broad spectrum for how it's laid out.
Normal is a cake walk. If you're having problem with normal, you kind of have to learn your ship and learn the game. This isn't being condencending, it's the purpose behind normal. If you have trouble with normal, you basically just need to learn the mechanics and the game better.
Elite isn't too bad. I'd personally like to see it get harder with a better AI. Yes I said it, elite needs to be harder, but that's not a bad thing since really if you're going into elite's you're basically the top tier with a good group and basically right now it's too easy for that criteria.
Advanced is the issue.
Advanced is too easy when you have a pre-made team, or when you're in ships that basically are on the verge of elite but not quite there yet.
Advanced is too hard when you're simply walking into Advanced with a PUG simply trying to get BNPs in a ship that's basically on the same line as Sinn above, and you don't really have anyone to carry you, or even in a decent ship, with minimal communication, and a ship such as Sinn's above bringing you down, and lets be honest, there is almost zero communication in PUGs.
Mind you the other issue is that some queues are easier then other queues. So it's easier to steamroll ISA then it is to steamroll BDA.
So the issue now is, two fold in my mind. One some queues are easier then others, so everyone is kind of saying "No Advanced is too easy... no it's too hard" and they are thinking of two different queues.
The other issue is that it's still contains the majority of the playerbase, spread out between the widest margins of gear, experience, and play styles.
So while player A is finding Normal way to easy and unrewarding, he's going into Advanced to just grab a BNP from BDA and loosing, while other is going in with a pre-made 40k group into ISA and winning hands down and finding it too easy, but then going into ISE and being steamrolled.
So there's a perception issue on the case of the community, and there's an issue with the fact that Advanced is supposed to cover the most ground, but making it any easier will do a disservice to those who know the game, and those who simply just want the BNPs and to have fun and don't care.
This is the only problem with your conclusion. The issue is, if everyone was at 10k dps, then everyone would belong to this channel. The problem with your conclusion is that the majority of the people don't have the dps to get into this channel and/or don't care about it enough to want to get into this channel, either by improving their dps or simply dealing with the perceived elitism that simply belonging to the channel brings with it.
and pug something besides ISA and CCA while you're at it. Do 10 runs of other missions then report back and see if you can break 50% My bet is 10 or 20% Then ask yourself if that's the correct benchmark for advanced.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
1) by the time you reached 10.1 km from the first cube it was already fully down on its front shield facing and at 81% hull. By the time you moved into range your weapons got off 1 firing cycle and the cube went from 80% down to zero. Your fore torpedoes didnt even make it to the target.
2) by the time you reached the second cube, popped all your CDs and decloaked it was already down on its shield facing and at 36% hull. Also...saw that you got too close to the warp core breach from that cube
3) after the second cube you targeted a nanite that was 2-5% health and your fore weapons werent even pointed at it. Your rear 360degree array got one firing cycle off, your other rear beam array was recycling.
4) by the time you retargeted to the transformer it was down to 91% health.
5) after the transformer you switched to a sphere close to half health that was on the JHDC, then you switched to one that was at full shields and full health. It appears that you were on this one alone, for quite some time. You took down its left facing, then it moved around a bit and you had to take down its rear facing. At which point aoe appeared to pick up and the spheres right facing went down pretty fast and so did its hull.
6) after that sphere died you retargeted one that was already down to no shields and ~25% hull and got one cycle with your cannons, your torpedo was on cooldown. And another that was also at ~25% hull which you got 1 cannon cycle off of and a TS that launched but didnt reach it. Your average distance when you engaged these spheres after the transformer was anywhere between 7.2km to 9km roughly (except the first one which was about 1-2km).
7) entered cloak sped to the other side, presumably to set up an attack run where you wouldnt be trailing behind this time.
8) you popped most of your CD's and by the time you actually decloaked your CSV2 had already run half of its duration which was wasted. Pop BFAW, CSV, CRF when you come out of cloak next time, not before you decloak...or at least make it the last ability you pop right before you hit decloak.
9) you got hit by a warp core breach...again. Dont try and bring attention to your crappy gear. You could have avoided that warp core breach.
10) pretty obvious you didnt contribute at all to the 4 nanites and the transformer
11) you took the time to type lolopps, went back in but you messed up your approach. Your fore weapons only got a partial firing cycle off and they were masked because the target was out of your cannons firing cone. In fact when the group was trying to take out those remaining spheres a good portion of the time your cannons had the targets out of the cone and were not firing. You popped CSV2 but out of the 10 seconds it was active only 1 second of it actually activated to fire.
12) looks like you managed to find the gate ok
13) you also managed to find the cube ok, but starting at 68% hull you got too close and again your cannons had the cube (the big huge how can you miss it cube) out of your firing cone so your cannons werent shooting. You activated CSV and it ran its full 10second duration without firing. By the time your fore weapons were back on target and shooting again the cube was already down to 38% hull. Another second or two right before cube death of your weapons were not shooting again.
14) you died...again
It would have been easy for me to just say you were being carried. But with a detailed analysis of your performance, right down to the tiny little details it is easier for me to say you got carried...and easier for people to believe me. Whether you also believe me or not, is up to you.
I may not hang out in those 10k, 20k or whatever dps channels but i'd imagine that those are the MINIMUM required dps to be able to participate in those channel runs NOT THE MAXIMUM. With no damage meter readout i could just assume that some 30, 40, or 50k dpsers decided to run a 10K channel run. The same way anyone in full epic XIV and maxed ship traits can do a normal instance run and mop the floor cause they were bored.
Which was my whole point.
I gimped myself as much as I thought possible without going below t5. Not only was I carried- I was around 6k (which is the lowest I remember doing anything since I first heard of parsing), but I believe 2 people were right around 10k. I don't believe anyone did 40k although there was at least one 30k (i ended recording right before they posted the log).
Well in that case dont do your test with a bunch of premades from a dps channel but do it in some PuGs or in a PVE queue. You'll probably get some carries there too, but i'd be more interested to hear how the runs went where 5 people showed up to an advanced run expecting to get carried.
I could barely MOVE, with the lag. Like I said several times, it felt like I was on dialup. Clicking things, and even turning or targetting were a chore. I had to try PREclicking things, so I might have time to reclick them.
If you'd like, I'll show you a normal run, so you can see for yourself.
That's kind of the point.
I normally click everything (Normally APB, EPTW, BOL,TS on my cloaked alts) right before I want them to fire, then decloak. I simply could not do that. I actually do know these things. I just couldn't play normally with the framerate I was getting. "loloops" was typed before I respawned, and it showed it coming up after respawning..
If you'd like, I'll show you a normal run. Assuming that you didn't look at the DPS table, this was less than 1/3 of my norm.
There is a 2-3 second delay with pretty much everything I was doing. If I clicked it, 2-3 seconds later, it happened. I'm surprised I hit anything, frankly. The performance is irrelevant (other than showing a low contributed dps to the team).
How many people have a level 50 with no episode gear, no weapons from drops, no mission rewards or anything at 50? I dont even have the Breen set. the closest I had was a 56 I only use for ground, but it had some antiproton weapons from episodes and the Breen set, so I didnt use it.
I assume everyone has at least the....Jem Hadar set? I was using mostly what was on the ship stock. I don't know of anyone who does that.
Theres the Jem Hadar set, Breen Set, Solanae set, and non-Roms can get the 2-piece Antiproton Obelisk set. I assume most do at least one of those.
And if they don't bother, should they be queuing for anything called Advanced? That's the only place where we disagree.
I'm thinking that as time goes on in STO the same thing will end up happening. Here it is a bit harder to predict though because of having to pay or grind to upgrade gear. And also there are three possible difficulties instead of two that people will be spread out across. I'm afraid that one day all the people doing the carrying will finally end up being geared enough to just stay in elite or premades. And i'll end up being stuck in advanced with a bunch of scrubs who dont want to put forth any effort since i wont be able to upgrade away from XII for a loooooong time. It's like when I used to do Cure Elite pre-DR and i would glance over an and see 2-3 people having trouble with 2 bops. Its not you or the 1-2 people from that clip that can carry that i'm worried about. It's the 1, 2 or 3 other people who dont know wtf they are doing and need to be carried.
Advanced even in pugs are probably ok now, but its just a few weeks after DR launch. But a few months or a year from now? ughh i dont even wanna think about it. Maybe i'll rename all of my overpowered/geared ships the USS Atlas or something.
Just did it in a random queue trying a different recording method, and got 9k+ dps, with same ship, and success. I didn't parse it myself, so I'll consider it a test run, and go again tomorrow with clr running.
You're basically dealing with pros who know what dps even means. Most of those PuGers won't ever hit that lofty 10k mark. And even if they did, they would still need to surmount their inability to use strategy.
Last ISA PuG I was in, first set on the left after the initial group, a Scimitar used its AoE Thalaron Pulse on the corner generator...and hit absolutely nothing else. It was mystifying and terrifying at the same time. Failed that one faster than any I've seen since DR was released.
Honestly, part of it is that one can hit 10k DPS, and use the 10k DPS channel to quickly find a team. Most of the PUGs Ive tried this on, there were at least 2 people doing under 3k, and often people under 1k. I'm not even sure how that is possible, but those people should simply not be queuing for Advanced anything. I (and, let's not forget, another fresh 50) had far less than "average gear," could eat a sandwich waiting for my activations, and still was above 5k.
The average person is doing better than 5k. I'm sure of it. Especially with the power creep of ship upgrades and specializations. It's not the average person ruining the missions, it's the people like you mentioned. I don't think it's right to reward people by just neutering the missions, and giving them the rewards for doing absolutely nothing.
alternatively I have played 'THE CONDUIT' & 'KHITOMER VORTEX' and failed every time, often within seconds of destroying the first cube.
all have been played on advanced with random teams and I can only add that most times I have played these previously we have won and when there has been the occasional fail it is after a considerable amount of time not within seconds of starting.
I am quite happy to except the occasional fail otherwise there is no challenge so I would say that with 'the cure found' they have got it about right, sure it slightly harder but it is doable as long as you protect the I.K.S. Kang and when you fail it is after a fair amount of time and its because the kang got too much damage.
but with 'THE CONDUIT' & 'KHITOMER VORTEX' and I suspect many others they have just made the fail conditions far too many any far too easy to trip.
as I said in another thread on this subject when someone said its cos some players don't have good enough gear, the problem is you need to do advanced to get the borg neural processors and such so you can get the best stuff and you cant get them any other way.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
They said that Advanced would be equivalent to the old Elite.
It is not.
They lied.
Again.
The only way to recover some of the tolerance that people had for them before DR is to actually do something the way they said they were going to do it.
They need to start bailing and this would be the perfect opportunity as they said they would be revisiting the difficulties.
Elite is for people who like overinflated hit points.
Leave Advanced for everyone else to learn the missions so they aren't harassed for not knowing the missions well enough in Elite.
VERY simple concept.
Normal is for everyone.
advanced is for advanced players who put thought into their builds.
Elite is for the best of the best.
you want to learn stick to normal.
You're missing the point.
OP wants Advanced to be Elite as well.
Cryptic PROMISED! that Advanced would be the same difficulty as the old Elites.
Don't side with the Elitists that have already broken this game.
There's nothing "Elite" about overinflated hit points and damage.
OR
Everyone else will leave the whole game to the Elitists.
Let's see if they can support it by themselves.
All 5% of them!
False.
I want Advanced to not be Normal. Otherwise, why bother? Frankly, the only Elite I have any interest in at all is the Korfez thing, because it's new, different content. Elite is not made for me. I'm fine with Advanced (before the last nerf, even). I get far too distracted to be able to pay enough attention to attempt anything called "Elite," even if my DPS was high enough (it's not).
I've said it before: I only build to be "competent." I have weird, "fun" builds. If I wasn't competent at doing Advanced, I'd do something else. But I don't seriously think the average person is incompetent. I believe 5 average people could beat the pre-nerf Advanced. Especially if they were at 60.
Once again, someone from the DPS community proves that when you fly with the best, anything is possible.
Now do that again in a pug. a real test whether you gain support, or like most people - you take your chances.
I'm blown away by the talent, but can't understand the COMPLETE lack of realisation - when you fly with people who carry you* - you can accomplish anything.
*The exception being @RyanSTO who it seems can turn a flying TRIBBLE into a weapon of sheer death. respect given
Followed by another side remark about the 'rest' of the community.
Advanced is old Elite. Is it difficult - no. Does it reward Rep Special items (where available) yes. Can it be done by a T1 ship? Yep, albeit only by the very best players. Is the average player still somewhat incompetent, yes. Could the average player's build cope just fine if it wasn't for them holding it back, definitely.
The content, with the exception of Hive Space Elite, left Tribble needing buffs because it is not at the level advertised. Except Normal, that is at the level advertised.