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Why is TDF OP? (nebula console)

tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
edited April 2014 in PvP Gameplay
[4/3 5:51] [Zone] ME: I can see you XXXXXX.. can you see me? oh now be honest, captain. One warrior to another. You have been preferred this way, as it was meant to be.

[4/3 5:51] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: yes

[4/3 5:52] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: but yes, i did see you =P

[4/3 5:53] [Zone] ME: cuz TDF is OP

[4/3 5:53] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: well, tdf + eptA3 + sensor scan

[4/3 5:53] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: i cant wait till klinks get it

[4/3 5:53] [Zone] ME: must exceed the cap just like weapons with dem3/bfaw, etc..

[4/3 5:53] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: nope

[4/3 5:54] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: i can get much higher

[4/3 5:54] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: depends on the setup i run

[4/3 5:54] [Zone] ME: thats what I said.. exceed the cap

[4/3 5:54] [Zone] ME: klingons won't get it and if they do, cryptic will then nerf it

[4/3 5:54] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: so far the max i have been able to get is 28km

[4/3 5:55] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: if i had embasy sensor probes im sure i would pass 30km

[4/3 5:55] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: i want them to get it

[4/3 5:55] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: i have a kick TRIBBLE brel build ready

[4/3 5:55] [Zone] ME: what would it matter.. you can't ever protect against it

[4/3 5:55] [Zone] ME: I've had the maximum stealth on my b'rel that I could get and you still detected me

[4/3 5:56] [Zone] ME: consoles, +stealth deflectors etec.. and max points in stealth

[4/3 5:56] [Zone] ME: I tested it one day that you were in here

[4/3 5:57] [Zone] ME: that is why it is OP... my cloak becomes useless and my hull, shields, boffs, etc.. have ben penalized for having cloak and it does no good

[4/3 5:57] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: lol really? if you want, in 20 seconds i can do full stealth detection, and we can see how far i can see you

[4/3 5:57] [Zone] ME: not spec'd for it anymore

[4/3 5:57] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: ahh ok

[4/3 5:57] [Zone] ME: cuz i considered it useless to waste the points when my cloak is no good

[4/3 5:58] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: well my build is not to popular

[4/3 5:58] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: so its not like you need to worry about it most of the time

[4/3 5:58] [Zone] ME: something is wrong with it though and cryptic thinks they know better

[4/3 5:58] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: well its a trade off

[4/3 5:58] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: i do no dmg

[4/3 5:59] [Zone] ME: yes, but you have maxed the ability... even people who don't max the ability can detect me too far away

[4/3 6:00] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: i actually only have 6 in sensors lol, just realized it

[4/3 6:00] [Zone] ME: you could probably do more damage by and sacrifice that ability and still be just as effective, maybe a little more with more damage

[4/3 6:00] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: well more effective on my own yes

[4/3 6:01] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: but less effective on a team

[4/3 6:01] [Zone] ME: because TDF is OP along with the combination of the other powers

[4/3 6:01] [Zone] XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX: lol wells is the most op ship in the game

[4/3 6:05] [Zone] ME: and the fact that you have 6 in sensors and not even maxxed out hehe

I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • thegalaxy31thegalaxy31 Member Posts: 1,211 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You forgot to cut out a name there. And I might be using this console...
    I would love to visit this star in-game...or maybe this one!
    Won't SOMEONE please think of the CHILDREN?!
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Now tell me,cryptic.. is this what you intended? 28K detection and I'm sure the only reason why that is the limit is due to the fact that once a player exceeds 28Km, they disappear from the visible screen (unless video options are modified to see further)

    Really cryptic? I can't counter this.. anything that doesn't have a counter even when I have maxxed my stealth options is OP.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You forgot to cut out a name there. And I might be using this console...

    By all means, please get it so that it can be used in abuse fashion.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It runs for a few seconds then goes on a 2-min CD. Stay at 11k, wait for the icon to go away, then rush him while he's blind. Might need a couple of runs to drain his SS and EPtA3 but that still leaves you with something like 60% opportunity window.

    Passive detection sucks vs a char with a lot of cloaking skilll points. Wait him out then sneak up on him and strike. Do you need 100% immunity or something?
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    It runs for a few seconds then goes on a 2-min CD. Stay at 11k, wait for the icon to go away, then rush him while he's blind.

    I don't think 11K matters. He is a sci and always has a tac with him. So in addition to being pulled out of cloak, I have to deal with sci trickery while the tac is pounding on me.

    What I am saying is.. If my maxxed stealth cannot compete with his maxxed stealth detection, then it is OP.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    I don't think 11K matters. He is a sci and always has a tac with him. So in addition to being pulled out of cloak, I have to deal with sci trickery while the tac is pounding on me.
    TDF isnt pulling you out cloak. Stay out of range and he will see you but be helpless.
    What I am saying is.. If my maxxed stealth cannot compete with his maxxed stealth detection, then it is OP.
    Its burst detection. It should be OP for the few seconds that it runs considering that passive detection sucks for the 1:45 that the console is on CD.
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014

    Passive detection sucks vs a char with a lot of cloaking skilll points. Wait him out then sneak up on him and strike. Do you need 100% immunity or something?

    I'm saying that I was maxxed on stealth and he still detected me at 20K.

    That is not right.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    I'm saying that I was maxxed on stealth and he still detected me at 20K.
    For 15 seconds...
    That is not right.
    Is it right that you can sneak in up to 5k the rest of the time?
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    I don't think 11K matters. He is a sci and always has a tac with him. So in addition to being pulled out of cloak, I have to deal with sci trickery while the tac is pounding on me.

    What I am saying is.. If my maxxed stealth cannot compete with his maxxed stealth detection, then it is OP.

    I think the point was the only time he can see you past 11k or so is when the console is running... and like most consoles it has a cool down.

    I honestly don't have any issues with scis running ETPA 3 and sensor scan seeing people at 10k.

    Its the counter to cloak. Why should cloak not have a counter.

    As you have said he wouldn't be much of a threat on his own. Seems like a perfectly viable tactic to me. Is it really any different then 2 cloakers decloaking on one target. Again not much threat on there own either.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    TDF isnt pulling you out cloak. Stay out of range and he will see you but be helpless.


    Its burst detection. It should be OP for the few seconds that it runs considering that passive detection sucks for the 1:45 that the console is on CD.

    When he sees me at 28K, he moves in and then uses AOE on me to pull me out of cloak for his friends to pound on me. He's a sci healer.. no way of taking him out unless with 6 other guys not being distracted by the group he has with him.

    You are welcome to come to ker'rat and try if you want.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think the point was the only time he can see you past 11k or so is when the console is running... and like most consoles it has a cool down.

    I honestly don't have any issues with scis running ETPA 3 and sensor scan seeing people at 10k.

    Its the counter to cloak. Why should cloak not have a counter.

    As you have said he wouldn't be much of a threat on his own. Seems like a perfectly viable tactic to me. Is it really any different then 2 cloakers decloaking on one target. Again not much threat on there own either.

    Cloak can have a counter, and it can even have a counter up to 11K... but NOT 28K and he can see me well over 11K even when it is on cooldown.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think the point was the only time he can see you past 11k or so is when the console is running... and like most consoles it has a cool down.
    More that he cant do anything about it when he does, 10k being range limit on weapons and abilities
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    Cloak can have a counter, and it can even have a counter up to 11K... but NOT 28K and he can see me well over 11K even when it is on cooldown.

    Again I have no issues with this. He can see you for a few seconds so what. Is that any more op then an ISO or a Leech or even an aceton console ? Really
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    More that he cant do anything about it when he does, 10k being range limit on weapons and abilities

    Exactly the sci sees you not the team... and for him to do anything he has to turn and chase. Watch for the buff and when you see it on a scis bar and they are facing you turn around and outrun them for a few seconds.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    More that he cant do anything about it when he does, 10k being range limit on weapons and abilities


    Then he moves in and uses AOE

    My maxxed stealth (3 stealth consoles, maxxed skill points in stealth, deflector that gives +stealth, etc..) should not allow him to detect me over 1-2KM.. Yes.. still detect me, but at a much reduced range.

    This is not happening

    Maxxed in stealth does not mean anything when one has that console.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    Then he moves in and uses AOE

    My maxxed stealth (3 stealth consoles, maxxed skill points in stealth, deflector that gives +stealth, etc..) should not allow him to detect me over 1-2KM.. Yes.. still detect me, but at a much reduced range.

    This is not happening

    Maxxed does not mean anything in stealth with that console.

    That console isn't the reason for the extended stealth detection. It is the combination of a Lt. Commander bridge officer, a devoted deflector, 3-4 science consoles, and the special Tachyon Detection Field console. A player with that much stealth detection investment should be able to see stealth at a range beyond point blank.
    --->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
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    Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    When he sees me at 28K, he moves in and then uses AOE on me to pull me out of cloak for his friends to pound on me.
    stay >11k away and he wont be able to do anything

    Only time its a problem is when the user is claoked himself, then you cant see the TDF user but they can see everybody else. I havent checked that in a while so I dont want to comment about that. If it still works thats a design error/bug/something and should be blocked.
    You are welcome to come to ker'rat and try if you want.
    I have a TDF Nebula with EPtA3 and SS, and I also have KDF and roms that avoid them. Icons are your friend.
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    That console isn't the reason for the extended stealth detection. It is the combination of a Lt. Commander bridge officer, a devoted deflector, 3-4 science consoles, and the special Tachyon Detection Field console. A player with that much stealth detection investment should be able to see stealth at a range beyond point blank.

    But a player with much investment in detection prevention should only be seen at point blank range.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    Then he moves in and uses AOE

    My maxxed stealth (3 stealth consoles, maxxed skill points in stealth, deflector that gives +stealth, etc..) should not allow him to detect me over 1-2KM.. Yes.. still detect me, but at a much reduced range.

    This is not happening

    Maxxed does not mean anything in stealth with that console.

    Why ?

    I am being serious explain why you think cloak should be perfect. So you spent points in stealth so what you are talking about someone who is obviously fully speced into sensors... running EPTA 3 and using a click console slot... why should they not be able to see you.

    I think cloak has been to good for far to long. I'm glad this console exists. I don't find it any more over powered then all the other click consoles. Lets you see cloakers for a few seconds every couple min... that is hardly OP. The buff is very easy to spot... when you see a sci ship around watch for it. Just like playing when there are cloakers are around you have to watch for them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    Maxxed in stealth does not mean anything when one has that console.
    Yeah it does, it means he cant see you when the active detection is on CD. You can bump right up against his hull and he wont see you, if you have that much skill.
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Why ?

    I am being serious explain why you think cloak should be perfect. So you spent points in stealth so what you are talking about someone who is obviously fully speced into sensors... running EPTA 3 and using a click console slot... why should they not be able to see you.

    I think cloak has been to good for far to long. I'm glad this console exists. I don't find it any more over powered then all the other click consoles. Lets you see cloakers for a few seconds every couple min... that is hardly OP. The buff is very easy to spot... when you see a sci ship around watch for it. Just like playing when there are cloakers are around you have to watch for them.

    Didn't say perfect cloak, but when I have invested just as many anti-detect points as someone who has invested in cloak detection.. it should only allow point blank range discovery.

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I admit that I didn't really read through the thread.

    TDF can be used while cloaked on a Fed T'varo.
    The console is subject to CD reduction from 2pc MACO and a [SciCdr] Deflector.

    That's why I consider the TDF to be OP...my apologies if this was covered already.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    stay >11k away and he wont be able to do anything

    Only time its a problem is when the user is claoked himself, then you cant see the TDF user but they can see everybody else. I havent checked that in a while so I dont want to comment about that. If it still works thats a design error/bug/something and should be blocked.


    I have a TDF Nebula with EPtA3 and SS. Also have roms that avoid them. Icons are your friend.

    Ya I don't use this console myself... if you can use it under cloak though sure... ti should decloak / or force reveal the enhanced cloak ships no doubt.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    Didn't say perfect cloak.

    If you can get into weapons range with out being seen its a perfect claok imo.

    If I was balancing the game no cloak would work closer then 2k... speced would get you to around 4k before a sci with sensor spend would see you... and unspeced more like 6k.

    One of the major issues with this game is the perfect stealth honestly.

    I think stealth would be a lot cooler and much more tactical if people set things up out of weapon range and then moved in hard. I know most people play that way. Myself I find it pretty bad design that I can park any of my cloak ships .5k from 95% of the games players and catch them by complete surprise.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • ibuyevryshipibuyevryship Member Posts: 280
    edited April 2014
    KDF need TDF for counter romulan vaper , the only way to counter vaper in a 5 vs 5 match is have TDF
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    If you can get into weapons range with out being seen its a perfect claok imo.

    If I was balancing the game no cloak would work closer then 2k... speced would get you to around 4k before a sci with sensor spend would see you... and unspeced more like 6k.

    One of the major issues with this game is the perfect stealth honestly.

    I think stealth would be a lot cooler and much more tactical if people set things up out of weapon range and then moved in hard. I know most people play that way. Myself I find it pretty bad design that I can park any of my cloak ships .5k from 95% of the games players and catch them by complete surprise.

    OK.. then lets try another way...

    On my b'rel, I have:
    3 mk12 very rare stealth modules
    Rom subterfuge boff
    +26 stealth deflector
    9 points in stealth

    i am being detected at greater than 11KM. Not asking for perfect stealth, but just what do you propose I do when he can't be vaped and always has a group of tacs with him?

    Always running is not the answer.

    Why would I even invest in stealth when it is worthless with that console?

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    KDF need TDF for counter romulan vaper , the only way to counter vaper in a 5 vs 5 match is have TDF
    TDF isnt strictly required. EPtA3 and SS can both boost detection to very long ranges (no need to stack them, just rotate between them). Romulan and Jem'Hadar Mk XII deflectors both add +2 detection also.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    tfomega wrote: »
    OK.. then lets try another way...

    On my b'rel, I have:
    3 mk12 very rare stealth modules
    Rom subterfuge boff
    +26 stealth deflector
    9 points in stealth

    i am being detected at greater than 11KM. Not asking for perfect stealth, but just what do you propose I do when he can't be vaped and always has a group of tacs with him?

    Always running is not the answer.

    Why would I even invest in stealth when it is worthless with that console?
    Why cant you vape during the downtime? Sounds like your real problem is the group of tacs that are with him?

    Trust me, my neb gets team-ganked hard in Ker'rat
  • tfomegatfomega Member Posts: 812 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Why cant you vape during the downtime? Sounds like your real problem is the group of tacs that are with him?

    of course.. which is the only purpose for him to run a ship like that as indicated in the opening post by his comment.. he uses it for team mode.

    But why does my complete and total investment in stealth not even matter?

    I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
    MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
  • ibuyevryshipibuyevryship Member Posts: 280
    edited April 2014
    TDF isnt strictly required. EPtA3 and SS can both boost detection to very long ranges (no need to stack them, just rotate between them). Romulan and Jem'Hadar Mk XII deflectors both add +2 detection also.

    dude i know what im talking about without TDF u can see at 14 km its not enough far to counter romulan vaper ! you almost dont have the time to react like:

    u will see the guy at 14 KM then whe hes at 10 km ur sci will say i seem him going to jump and nuke , then when the vaper get nuked your teamate is allready dead ...
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