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Buffing Weapon Energy damage, Is Romulan/Fleet Plasma the best?

redsnake721redsnake721 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited April 2014 in Federation Discussion
There are I think 3 Energy types that can be Buffed beyond what Tac consoles can do.

1. Polaron buff from Jem'hadar set +13.1% Polaron Damage
2. Antiproton from the Obelisk set +10% Antiproton Damage
3. Plasma Energy from Embassy Sci consoles * and Plasma Torp from Romulan and Reman space sets.


*I am not sure if the 9.6% boost to Plasma damage is per consoles and stackable or what the deminishing return is, or if you can get a total of 38.4% boost from 4 consoles. It looks like ships with 4 Tac consoles and 4 Sci consoles or 5 Tac 3 Sci could boost plasma damage higher than any other energy type.

So here are a list of the ships that would fit the bill.
These are the 5 ships with 4 Tac and 4 Sci consoles:
Temp destroyer, Andorian Khyzon Escort , Vesta Multi-Mission Reconnaissance Explorer, Luna Class Fleet Reconnaissance Vessel, Elachi S'golth Escort.

There are two ships with 5 Tac 3 Sci: Breen Plesh Brek Heavy Raider, Fleet MVAE.

So please correct me if I am wrong but it looks like Romulan Plasma weapons or Fleet Plasma weapons on one these 5 ships with 4 XII Spire Plasma Tac consoles at +31.9% each and 4 Embassy Sci consoles at +9.6% each is the highest buffed energy damage you can get?

I would love for Virus to do the math on this so we all can see what energy type can be buffed the highest and what ships can pull it off. My own rough estimates show that the two 5/3 console ships could buff the highest.
Post edited by redsnake721 on
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Comments

  • wilbor2wilbor2 Member Posts: 1,684 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I use rom DHC on my rom kdf tac with 1 sci console plus rom torp n console i do massive amounts of dmg in stf. e.g me n one of my fleet mates from orion empire joined the pug queue for CSE some one did not load. After 4 mins the other 2 warped out so me n my fleet bud said lets give it a shot. He tanked under cubes in hislockbox voth ship.
    I took out everything that was a threat to kang any way we cleared the mission with optional n 1 min left on the clock.
    Plasma is ace for pve missions.
    gs9kwcxytstg.jpg
  • sander233sander233 Member Posts: 3,992 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Romulan Singularity Harness 2pc. set bonus buffs plasma energy damage.

    So, yes, between that, plasma-infused threat-scaling science consoles ([Pla] Embassy consoles) and the nasty disruptor proc, Romulan Plasma is the deadliest weapon type in the game at present.
    16d89073-5444-45ad-9053-45434ac9498f.png~original

    ...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
    - Anne Bredon
  • redsnake721redsnake721 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    So why is everyone not in one of the ships I listed above with Romulan Plasma and 4 XII +%9.6 Embassy consoles?

    I would still like to see the math on these to see how they stack. Now is there not some Romulan Boffs that boost Plasma damage in space also?. I would love to see just how far it can go.
  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    So why is everyone not in one of the ships I listed above with Romulan Plasma and 4 XII +%9.6 Embassy consoles?

    I would still like to see the math on these to see how they stack. Now is there not some Romulan Boffs that boost Plasma damage in space also?. I would love to see just how far it can go.

    They stack the same way as tac consoles. There's no special stacking penalty just for them. Boff plasma dmg buff is only ground, unfortunately.

    I've been wondering why everyone and their mother is going for AP too. Turns out most people have no clue and just mindlessly follows the fotm, combined with the old idea of plasma being laughably bad, which used to be true for a long time.

    As far as math, it's so obvious there's no reason to bother. Additional dps from a few plasma consoles will be far higher than the additional dps from higher crit severity of AP over plasma.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2014
    Wow, you forgot tetryons with the Nukara 2 piece bonus.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2014
    BTW, people go for antiproton's because of the innate extra CrtD plus extra CrtH from the spire consoles and Romulan Boffs. The plasma proc you can HE away.
  • captainoblivouscaptainoblivous Member Posts: 2,284 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Here are the reasons, first is that before the Fleet system the STF sets were the top of the line and they get a 20% Plasma resistance and even Elite Fleet Shields are not that easy to come by but its a holdover from that pre-Elite Fleet Shields.

    Second, AP have a 20% critical severity instead of a proc that is more useful that a 2.5% DoT proc that can be cleanse.

    Third, AP is cheap for beams due to the Obelisk set even if DHCs and turrets are a diferent matter, plus there is the 360? beam of the Obelisk set and the Cutting beam that are both AP and so there is good synergy with relative low cost.

    AP crit bonus helps you...
    Procs on the Rom plasma weapons helps the team...

    That said, a boat that can't slot many (or any) embassy sci consoles would probably be better off with AP or disruptor. However, a big part of the rom plas phenomenon is the rom 2 piece bonus. If you slot the rom hyper torp for it, that's a heck of a lot more plasma fires (LOTS more if you use torp spread with it) which will do a healthy amount of DPS alone.
    You could also see the rom plas DOT proc as an opportunity to get the target to waste their hazard emitters, leaving them on CD when they will really need them (i.e. to heal, rather than just cleanse a fire or two).
    I need a beer.

  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Here are the reasons, first is that before the Fleet system the STF sets were the top of the line and they get a 20% Plasma resistance and even Elite Fleet Shields are not that easy to come by but its a holdover from that pre-Elite Fleet Shields.

    Second, AP have a 20% critical severity instead of a proc that is more useful that a 2.5% DoT proc that can be cleanse.

    Third, AP is cheap for beams due to the Obelisk set even if DHCs and turrets are a diferent matter, plus there is the 360? beam of the Obelisk set and the Cutting beam that are both AP and so there is good synergy with relative low cost.

    That was a long time ago, long before embassy. Ever since there are starbases, ppl who still use maco/borg shields in pvp are noobs and tend to go down easily regardless. Fleet shields are too good to not use in pvp.

    It's not about proc, or lack of it. It's about the damage. 20% crit severity translanted into dps is laughable compared to 9.5% for each embassy console.

    Obelisk warp core is aux, and horribly bad compared to fleet cores. If you use it instead of fleet core, which adds 2/3 of the 10% dmg bonus under normal condisions, up to 12% if you pop batteries during combat, plus loads of better stats, you're gimping yourself to begin with.

    AP is not cheap, it's the most inaccessible out of all weapon types. The sources are lockbox or fleet store, that's it. Other weapon types come as drops.
    lucho80 wrote: »
    BTW, people go for antiproton's because of the innate extra CrtD plus extra CrtH from the spire consoles and Romulan Boffs. The plasma proc you can HE away.

    You say that as if other weapons don't get the crit chance from spire consoles. AP's "advantage" is 20% crit severity, with drawback of not having a proc, nothing more.

    Plasma's advantage isn't the proc. It's the far higher dps. Its proc is besides the point.

    Disruptor's advantage is the proc.
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    noblet wrote: »
    It's not about proc, or lack of it. It's about the damage. 20% crit severity translanted into dps is laughable compared to 9.5% for each embassy console.
    Those embassy consoles are 9.5% of BASE, however. This means that the actual damage increase is closer to maybe 3%.
    noblet wrote: »
    You say that as if other weapons don't get the crit chance from spire consoles. AP's "advantage" is 20% crit severity, with drawback of not having a proc, nothing more.
    AP can be considered to have +20% CrtD as a proc instead of a 2.5% proc. This means AP has a proc that procs at 100% of your CrtH, since the +20% CrtD procs anytime you score a crit, which, for nearly everyone these days, is an order of magnitude more often than that silly 2.5%. And technically, you can use those Embassy [Pla] consoles to add burning to AP, too, although I have no good numbers as to how useful [Pla] is for non-Pla weapons, given that it can be easily cleared by HE.

    But yes, it's true that the current contenders for the damage crown are Plaz vs. AP now, not any of the other types.

    They are not without their share of drawbacks, though: Both are type B damage, resisted an extra 15% by the ubiquitous ResB EFS. So you immediately lose 15% of your damage from that in PvP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2014
    I'm a fan of anything with polaron procs myself, but that is because of my builds.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2014
    Those embassy consoles are 9.5% of BASE, however. This means that the actual damage increase is closer to maybe 3%.

    Here we go again with the diminishing returns junk again. All tac consoles increase the same base damage so you're not really getting diminishing returns, they all return equally. The only diminishing return things in this game are armor and other protection like power insulators.
  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Here we go again with the diminishing returns junk again. All tac consoles increase the same base damage so you're not really getting diminishing returns, they all return equally. The only diminishing return things in this game are armor and other protection like power insulators.

    Don't embarrass him like that.:P
  • redsnake721redsnake721 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    So from what I have read so far is that for Fed's a Breen raider or a MVAE with Fleet Plasma (just looking a shear numbers) Running 5 XII Spire Tac consoles at +31.9% X 5 = +159.5 add Embassy Sci consoles at + 9.6% X 3 = + 28.8 % plus the Set 2: Plasma Conductive Circuitry Buff at +7.6% comes to + 195.9% and a 4 Tac 4 Sci console ship will get you + 173.6% boost to plasma

    Even with the boost to AP from it's Crtd proc and Crth Spire consoles it looks like the king of raw damage numbers goes to plasma.
    Now math is by no way by strong suit. I just added up all the buffs. There could be many, many more factors involved. I know that Traits, Skill points, Weapon modifiers, Accolade buffs, Acc/defence, etc all play a role in figuring damage output. But I know of no other energy type that can get a almost %200 boost to base damage.

    Granted it's only feasable on 2 ships. Other than the Breen Raider the KDF only have 1 ship. The Fleet Kar'Fi Battle Carrier. It has a 4 tac/4 Sci layout. The Romulans have 2 choices. The Fleet Dhelan Warbird Retrofit has 5/3, The Scimitar Dreadnought Warbird has 5/3, They have no 4/4 ships. So with the Cross-faction ships included the Romulans have the most choice when it comes to ships with the 195.9% boost ability. The Feds have 2 and the KDF have just one choice it being the Breen Raider.

    So I may just load out my MVAE with some Romulan Plasma weapons 5 Spire Crth consoles. 2 Embassy particle Gens and 1 Graviton Emitter. Load up my go-to Uni consoles and the Romulan Zero point and the Beam or Hyper Torp and see what it can do.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    view your tooltops in your tray area

    equip a plasma console

    now divide the old damage by the new damage

    you will notice very very quickly that it is NOT 9.6 percent.

    Why is this, you ask?

    Because those consoles only buff the base damage of the weapon and ignore all other factors (which things like the plasma synergy bonus are not ignored by, test this equipping the zero point and experimental beam array. again do the division, TADA a real 7.6 percent)

    To be completely blunt, the embassy plasma consoles are pretty TRIBBLE and unless you had already planned to have that type of science console there to begin with, youre honestly better served throwing something like the zero point, tachyokinetic converter, nukara particle, or assimilated module there.

    Go ahead and test out what ive said, you will find the same conclusions.

    The real reason why plasma is good and shares "top dog" status with other synergy types, isnt so much its raw damage bonusing... its the fact its synergy set also contains a beam weapon that does not drain weapons power when it is used, boosting the damage of all other weapons marginally in the process. (excellent for beam boats)

    Someone said it earlier in the thread, that each embassy console gives in actuality about 3 percent damage increase. On my test build it was actually closer to 3.3 but thats just being exacting. Not all percents are created equal.

    Its the same as the AMP modifier on elite warp cores. It isnt really a 3.3 percent increase per subsystem either, not the final damage output anyway, its more like 1.2 percent per subsystem. Hence why for AP ships the Obelisk core/beam set is more than twice as effective at boosting raw damage than an AMP warp core.

    The most powerful damage type in the game, all things considered, is actually AntiProton, for that very reason. Plasma is a very very close second (actually beats AP if you are able to equp 3 or more embassy consoles, a huge investment of console space), with polaron and tetryon right on the heels.

    Disruptor and Phaser both have the lowest raw DPS output due to lack of a synergy set, but disruptor does benefit from a tiny debuff akin to 1/4 of an attack pattern beta, and phasers, well... we know what phasers do.

    Lets break it down

    Antiproton - 10 percent synergy set +20critD (the weapon is 360 degrees and has similar damage to a KCB, the warp core is on par with fleet cores), synergy set CANNOT be used on Warbirds.

    Plasma - 7.6 percent synergy set (torp + beam array or beam array + uni console or torp + uni console), + plasma burn + a couple plasma infused consoles (has the highest POTENTIAL dps output, but requires an insane amount of console space, at least 3 science, to match the raw damage of Antiproton or lobi upgraded Polaron)

    Polaron - 13.1 percent synergy set (via lobi upgrade, 8.1% without)

    Tetryon - 7.6% synergy set, requires equipping a mine launcher (different damage type) or a universal console (using a slot)

    Disruptor/Phaser both have elite fleet variants that have special procs, but both do less raw DPS due to lack of any synergy sets at all.


    So the final response is...

    if youre in a warbird Plasma or Polaron is the best damage type for you (Tetryon is ok too, but isnt as potent)

    Any other ship AP is king, with polaron and plasma strong runner ups.
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  • ussboleynussboleyn Member Posts: 598 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Disruptors get synergy with the elachi lobi set.

    /\
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    ussboleyn wrote: »
    Disruptors get synergy with the elachi lobi set.

    Whats the total cost, ill include that then. i thought that was elachi ship specific (never owned an Sgolth)
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  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Found it myself

    Disruptor gains 7.6 damage, 15.2 CritD for an investment of 400 lobi, a weapon slot, and a console slot.

    This would put it just above tetryon, and the most expensive.
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    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
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  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Elachi Single Heavy Cannon is not of interest to any DHC user, stats are terrible, isn't affected by cannon skills and weapon drain resists, overall DPS loss is more than the 7.6% gained. Stick with the torpedo and decent console unless you have an Elachi ship and desire the Unspeakable Energy passive.
    EnYn9p9.jpg
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I am going to amend my previous listing slightly.

    For the Arkif Tactical warbird, plasma is the absolute best damage type due to the additional 10 percent plasma bonus granted by the two-piece arkif cstore set bonus (this does however come at the cost of a console slot and the requirement to equip a quad cannon)

    But when stacked together with the zeropoint/experimental beam array (or romulan torpedo), the arkif achieves a 17.6% synergy, the highest in the game. I suppose one could add embassy consoles to that, but there is really no point.

    Id go something like, 2x Fleet Plasma Accx2Dmgx2, Quad, Experimental beam fore with probably 3x turrets or 2xturrets/kcb aft

    2 neuts
    valdore console, zero point, arkif console
    5x locators or exploiters in plasma

    TT1, CRF/CSV1, BO3, APO3
    TT1, CRF/CSV1

    for PvP, swap APO3 for APB3 for PvE
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    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
  • tinkerstormtinkerstorm Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited January 2014

    AP can be considered to have +20% CrtD as a proc instead of a 2.5% proc.
    The phasers on my beam boat have +20% CrtD. And still have their 2.5% proc.
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Elite Disruptors are really good for carriers and hybrid carriers types ships. The basic disruptor proc and the 25% resist shield debuff of the fleet proc helps the damage of your pets, and it also benifits my EPW by reducing resistance to it. The Elite Disuptors are better for team efforts.

    For a different ship, say the Dyson Science Destroyers I'd go with Antiproton or Plasma.

    I am curious if the basic disruptor procs debuff stack if more then one procs.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2014
    Elite Disruptors are really good for carriers and hybrid carriers types ships. The basic disruptor proc and the 25% resist shield debuff of the fleet proc helps the damage of your pets, and it also benifits my EPW by reducing resistance to it. The Elite Disuptors are better for team efforts.

    For a different ship, say the Dyson Science Destroyers I'd go with Antiproton or Plasma.

    I am curious if the basic disruptor procs debuff stack if more then one procs.

    I get the feeling those new ships will have some sort of protonic synergy associated with them. I know people hate the weapons right now, but you never know, they might be the new flavor of the month soon.
  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    lucho80 wrote: »
    I get the feeling those new ships will have some sort of protonic synergy associated with them. I know people hate the weapons right now, but you never know, they might be the new flavor of the month soon.

    Unless there are more than 2 protonic weapons available, they won't be flavor of any month. :rolleyes:
  • lagunadlagunad Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    view your tooltops in your tray area

    equip a plasma console

    now divide the old damage by the new damage

    you will notice very very quickly that it is NOT 9.6 percent.

    Why is this, you ask?

    Because those consoles only buff the base damage of the weapon and ignore all other factors (which things like the plasma synergy bonus are not ignored by, test this equipping the zero point and experimental beam array. again do the division, TADA a real 7.6 percent)

    I have seen other people say this, but sadly it is not true. The set bonus is calculated from the base damage, just like every other console bonus.

    Doing the test in the way you describe is flawed, as far testing how the bonus stacks, since equipping the ZP console also adds 1.8 weapon power, which increases energy weapon damage.

    I normally have the ZP console and the experimental beam array equipped. That gives me the "+7.6%" 2-piece set bonus.

    In space, with that set-up, the tooltips for my other RomPlas beam arrays say:

    1135.9 Plasma damage (908.7 DPS)

    If I de-equip the experimental array, I lose the set bonus (I don't de-equip the console since it affects power levels). Nothing else changes. Then the tooltips for the same weapons read:

    1117.5 Plasma damage (894 DPS)

    Thus, the "+7.6%" plasma bonus is really increasing my damage by only 1.6% (18.4 damage)

    For comparison, the change in damage from de-equipping a "+31.9%" spire plasma energy weapon console is 1117.5-1040.4 = 77.1 damage.

    The ratio 77.1/18.4 = 31.9/7.6.

    If I de-equip one of the "+9.6%" embassy science consoles, the change in damage is 1040.4-1016.5 = 23.9 damage.

    The ratio 23.9/18.4 = 9.6/7.6.

    Thus the set bonus is applied in EXACTLY the same way as every other console, and is a percentage of the BASE damage. And therefore the plasma damage bonus from the 2-pc Rom set is actually LESS than the bonus from the embassy sci consoles.

    Very easy to confirm, as I've described - you just can't change power levels or you will be introducing additional variables that make the set bonus look better than it really is.
  • vangrealvangreal Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I have been saving up a ton of Fleet Creds and Dil and EC to finally make a decision on damage type for my Fleet Regent. After reading this post I am still torn between Fleet Antiproton, Fleet Plasma, or Romulan Plasma. I know that I could probably get everything on my shopping list (fleet shields, fleet core, fleet consoles) and then use just dil to buy the rom plasma's, but I don't want to waste the Dil.

    Can anyone post stats for the beam arrays for a damage comparison or just a flat out recommendation?

    Thanks in advance :)
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    vangreal wrote: »
    I have been saving up a ton of Fleet Creds and Dil and EC to finally make a decision on damage type for my Fleet Regent. After reading this post I am still torn between Fleet Antiproton, Fleet Plasma, or Romulan Plasma. I know that I could probably get everything on my shopping list (fleet shields, fleet core, fleet consoles) and then use just dil to buy the rom plasma's, but I don't want to waste the Dil.

    Can anyone post stats for the beam arrays for a damage comparison or just a flat out recommendation?

    Thanks in advance :)

    For PvE the maximum damage potential goes to Romulan Plasma. For PvP you're better off using AP or Phasers.

    My personal recommendation? Go with Romulan Plasma. Those things can (and do) hit HARD.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • vangrealvangreal Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    How would you say the Rom Plasma's rank pvp wise? If I took em with the experimental beam, the rom energy harness, and maybe a embassay console or two...?

    I could go andorian phaser beam arrays, that would look freaking cool. Plus people would be confused somewhat lol.

    AP seems like such a "oooooohhh" type, yet I just can't seem to get excited for it.
  • vangrealvangreal Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    vangreal wrote: »
    How would you say the Rom Plasma's rank pvp wise? If I took em with the experimental beam, the rom energy harness, and maybe a embassay console or two...?

    I could go andorian phaser beam arrays, that would look freaking cool. Plus people would be confused somewhat lol.

    AP seems like such a "oooooohhh" type, yet I just can't seem to get excited for it.

    I am so undecided, I am forcing you all to share my frustration!!! lol
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    vangreal wrote: »
    How would you say the Rom Plasma's rank pvp wise? If I took em with the experimental beam, the rom energy harness, and maybe a embassay console or two...?

    I could go andorian phaser beam arrays, that would look freaking cool. Plus people would be confused somewhat lol.

    AP seems like such a "oooooohhh" type, yet I just can't seem to get excited for it.

    Plasma in general is usually not ideal for PvP, because most players are either using 1) Elite Fleet Shields that has the [resB] modifier (IE boosted resistance to disruptor, antiproton, and plasma), or MACO shields, which have a 20% resistance to plasma, in addition to 10% resistance to ALL energy types, which comes out to 30% resistance to plasma.

    Long story short, you'll have a hard time doing decent damage to most players shields if you use plasma, so it's probably best to just not.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
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