Bm's Getting Op

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Demon Blademaster:

Roar of the Pride - 35 chi

Stuns all targets within a 12 meter range for 6 seconds. 14 second cooldown.

Dragon Rising - 1 Spark

Paralyzes the target for 7.5 seconds. 15 second cooldown. (Technically different from a Stun)

Aeolian Blade/River Avalanche - 0 Chi

55% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds. 5 second cooldown.

Meteor Rush/Star Smite - 0 Chi

33% chance to stun target. 8 second cooldown.

Smack - 15 Chi

Seals the target for 3 seconds. Never misses. 40 second cooldown.

Reel In - 50 Chi

Reels in the target from a range of 25 meters. Based on soulforce. 120 second cooldown.

Blade Hurl - 35 Chi

Disarms target and all foes within 8 meters for 10 seconds. 60 second cooldown.

Farstrike - 0 Chi

Immobilizes targets 10 or more meters away for 3 seconds. 8 second cooldown.

To be fair your forgetting/at the very least not listing two (correction 4)... at the very least:

Bolt Of Tyresues (it immoblizes) It is also an aoe, but the time it immobilizes is stupidly silly compared to its cooldown/even its cost of 1 spark.

Reckless Rush: also immoblizes, but it too has a long *** cooldown. ;/

Also there is Flame Tsunami (90% chance to stun for 3 seconds)

Demon Myraid Sword Stance also has a 50% chance to stun fro 3 seconds.

--

We bms do have a plethora of stuns, and while it has become easier to build back up the chi, it is still really ridiculously hard for us to make use of the stuns. (I still absolutely feel that despite all of our stuns, nothing justifies us having to go an extra mile just to be able to do our role, it was far too hard to enjoy being on a bm in nw before the NH update, obviously I still die, and I do still have quite a few of the annoyances I had, but I am at least able to enjoy myself a LOT better now in nw on my bm with the NH update.)

I find it a complete load of rubbish when people say bms are suppose to be 'supports'... what the hell are clerics suppose to be? Before the nh update, hell even after they're still running amok, albeit at a much harder pace thanks to the NH update, far too many clerics are more than capable of not having to be a support, when their class should be the biggest 'baddest' support in the game.. they should essentially be healing and not on the front line, and yet all too often this isn't the case. (Now don't get me wrong I understand wanted to go out of your 'role' a little, but really a cleric is suppose to be a support not a tank/able to solo 20 people.)

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

I listed the ones with practical use, Flame Tsunami isn't the easiest skill to use since it requires your HP to be 75% or below. Reckless Rush is a 3 second freeze on a 120 second cooldown and requires 50 chi. Bolt of Tyreseus is a skill you'll almost never see in a 1v1 situation, it's actually very counter productive in a lot of cases. I like it in group PvP at times, it's great to hold a group of people down for a while, but I don't touch it in 1v1. MSS is nice to reduce attack levels, but the 3 second stun isn't reliable and other than the chance to stun it offers no CC. I tried to keep it simple with only our main forms of CC as the others are a bit too situational. I suppose I could have included Reckless Rush, since it doesn't fail and will always give the 3 seconds of Freeze.

Clerics are monsters these days. Their ability to lockdown targets the way they do is insane. As many complaints as paralyze gets, Seal of the God is around the same level as broken. Only it lasts longer and even though it comes with a 90% damage reduction on the target, the Cleric has many skills that can be used on the target with full effectiveness while it's up. But hey, I guess Blademasters are the neat thing to ***** about since nobody's used to them actually being a threat.

So that's why you left them out, which I completely agree with your analysis of them, they are quite situational, however still if you leave them out because they tend to be fairly unreliable then I think you would have to take out river avalanche, and even meteor rush, both of which have damn near the same amount of chance of MSS, 5% more for the RA, 17% less on the MR.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

I only left those in to explain just how unreliable they are, since he counted them as primary stuns. While they can be good if the stuns work, it's extremely unlikely and I felt the need to clarify that.

I did not catch that part. :$ lol

^^

Still I have seen for a while now what you meant when you told me good luck a while back about convincing others that bm's suckiness overrules any of their finer points. (paraphrasing a bit of course it has been a while. :$)

@ Zanryu: While I'm not as thick as you assume I am, I do understand what you are saying about locking ability of the BM versus damage during locking ability, my post was strickly about locking ability alone, not damage. You either missed that, or ignored it, to make a piont that is fairly obvious to anyone that TW's with or against these two classes. I am not a BM expert, but I am not ignorant of the class either.

Viktorian - Archosaur wrote: »

By the 0 chi seal I assume you're talking about smack? (Gunna point out smack is a 15 chi skill with some ridiculously long cool down ( i think 60 seconds))
Also u missed a few things
1 we have a lot more then 4 stuns(not primal skills) gunna list the ones of the top of my head
Roar of the pride (30chi)
Drakes bash (1 spark)
Aeolian blade (hard as *** to get demon version but I think that it's 100%)
Flame tsunami ( no chi but a 70% health or lower limit)
Meteor rush ( demon gives a 33% chance to stun in a straight line)
I think I'm missing a couple
Now non stunning skills
Oceans edge (slows)
Reckless rush (paralyzes 50(?) chi)
Smack (as mentioned above 15 chi seal)
Disarm and reel in cost about a spark together and reel in can fail 30% of the time in equal gear.
I forgot what 2 was. It will come to me eventually.

I have never seen the text for the skill, I was going on the book's description, and thank you for adding that. My comparison was for non-primal skills, mainly because there are a lot of sin books that have become rediculously priced, resulting in less people having them, or even attempting to open packs for them.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Demon Blademaster:

Not all BMs are demon, especially in PvP.

Roar of the Pride - 35 chi

Stuns all targets within a 12 meter range for 6 seconds. 14 second cooldown.

Dragon Rising - 1 Spark

Paralyzes the target for 7.5 seconds. 15 second cooldown. (Technically different from a Stun)Unblockable at that.

Aeolian Blade/River Avalanche - 0 Chi

55% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds. 5 second cooldown.

Meteor Rush/Star Smite - 0 Chi

33% chance to stun target. 8 second cooldown.

Smack - 15 Chi

Seals the target for 3 seconds. Never misses. 40 second cooldown.

Reel In - 50 Chi

Reels in the target from a range of 25 meters. Based on soulforce. 120 second cooldown.

Blade Hurl - 35 Chi

Disarms target and all foes within 8 meters for 10 seconds. 60 second cooldown.

Farstrike - 0 Chi

Immobilizes targets 10 or more meters away for 3 seconds. 8 second cooldown.

Sage Assassin:

Not all PvP sins are sage -.-.
Cursed Jail - 2 Sparks

Stuns target for 6 seconds. 50% chance to cost one spark. 30 second cooldown.

Throatcut - 1 Spark

Seals target for 4 seconds. 8 second cooldown.

Deep Sting - 50 Chi

Sleeps target for 5 seconds. 13 second cooldown.

Tackling Slash - +50 Chi

Freezes target for 11 seconds. 15 second cooldown.

Shadow Teleport - 1 spark

Stuns target for 3 seconds from a 35 meter range. 150 second cooldown.

Tidal Protection - 0 Chi

For 60 seconds the user has a 66% chance to dodge incoming status effects. Cooldown 90 seconds.

Rising Dragon Strike - +1.8 Sparks

The user gains 1.8 sparks. Can't miss. Cooldown 30 seconds.

Inner Harmony - +2 Sparks

The user has a 30% chance to gain an additional Spark. Cooldown 60 seconds.

Deaden Nerves - 0 Chi

Restores 20% HP upon death. Lasts 180 seconds. Cooldown 180 seconds.

Life Hunter - 0 Chi

2 hits that deal base physical damage + 200% of weapon damage + 11755 per hit. Reduces
the target's Attack Rate by 50% for 30 seconds. Reduces target's max HP by 10%. Effectively no cooldown.

Elimination - 0 Chi

Immobilizes the target for 3 seconds. Deals 320% of base physical damage. Causes a bleed equal to 935% weapon damage over 9 seconds. 30 second cooldown.


Now that we've listed ALL of the Assassin's main arsenal in comparison to the Blademaster's I believe it's fairly obvious which is superior at single target crowd control, but given that you're dense enough to make dark matter jealous, I'll explain it to you.Superior? Or different? You seem to love misrepresenting the argument, you also assume that dark matter is dense ( a partical that has no size/weight and can't even be detected).


It isn't the CC alone that gives Assassins the best lock in game, it isn't through the sole use of stuns either. It's the fact that whatever chi they use during their lock can be regained through the use of their skills, unlike every other class that has to conserve chi for a critical moment in the battle. Assassins aren't forced to save their chi and use it at a decisive moment, they can use crowd control freely and get their opponents into a position where they're unable to defend against the onslaught. In fact, of the many CC skills you listed for BMs, many are situational.*Aren't a lot of the sins skills you listed situational as well?


Blademasters appear to have a better lock if all you do is compare the control skills, however when you compare the classes as a whole it becomes very obvious that Assassins hold a huge advantage. Blademasters are unable to regain their chi at the same rate of an Assassin, and should they attempt to do so during their lock they lose out on large amounts of damage, whereas an Assassin will not. This argument was about locking ability, not locking+damage, or locking+chi. Which class can consistantly lock you down and make it extremely hard to get away? That is the question.I find that both can, in various ways.

The combination of Tidal Protection, Deaden Nerves, chi regeneration skills, and excellent single target CC makes the Assassin a far superior single target CC class. Counter CCing is not a reliable option due to Tidal, they can survive one death blow with Deaden, and are able to retaliate with a variety of versatile crowd control skills to turn the tide of the fight to their side.

Blademasters, however, have none of this. The only thing a Blademaster has that is truly superior to Assassins when it comes to single target CC is Paralyze. The Assassin's lock has a massive edge in versatility, and can be used far more frequently due to the amount of chi regeneration they have access to. Blademaster's crippling chi dependence has been alleviated a great deal with the addition of Star Smite and primal Farstrike, however the use of those skills means the sacrifice of damage in certain cases, and without using those the BM must rely on genie or apothecary to regenerate chi, while an Assassin will never need to do this.If you want to go there, BM's can rely on marrow's, and inate tankyness to survive retaliation, an assassin generally can not.

Every chi an Assassin spends can be regained fairly easily, their lock tends to have an effective cost of 0 chi. That is what makes Assassins better at locking down targets, it isn't JUST their CC skills, it's the fact that they can effectively lock a target down for 0 chi and be free to spend their chi on damage, as well as passively resist any status thrown their way. To claim Blademasters have a better lock, with or without Paralyze, is ignorant.I never said better, I said different. Clearly reading comprehesion is lacking on these forums, you basically wrote a page to refute a claim i never made.


Oh. And a Blademaster lock is ruined by simply using Fortify or Badge of Courage at the right time, unlike an Assassin lock.



*Blade Hurl is only useful when a target is threatening to kill, it must be preserved and cannot be used freely without being wasted.Or as a way to counter purify, getting CCed, or to simply disable someone from a fight.

Reel In is worthless in close range, and should only be used on fleeing targets or targets that are far away.

River Avalanche and Start Smite have low chances of actually working. 55% is not a low chance, what are you playing at? 33% is, but for 0 chi cost, I dont see a downside to its use other than time.

Farstrike only works on targets that are 10 meters or more away.

It is dishonest to boil down this to Sage Assassin vs Demon BM, considering not all sins are sage and not all BM's are demon. And least make the arguement fair by considering similar variable instead of producing ones that are one sided to say the least. It may work on others, but not me. I do agree with some of the things said, as I have experienced them myself, but strawmanning is just so wrong mate.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

I listed the ones with practical use, Flame Tsunami isn't the easiest skill to use since it requires your HP to be 75% or below. Reckless Rush is a 3 second freeze on a 120 second cooldown and requires 50 chi. Bolt of Tyreseus is a skill you'll almost never see in a 1v1 situation, it's actually very counter productive in a lot of cases. I like it in group PvP at times, it's great to hold a group of people down for a while, but I don't touch it in 1v1. MSS is nice to reduce attack levels, but the 3 second stun isn't reliable and other than the chance to stun it offers no CC. I tried to keep it simple with only our main forms of CC as the others are a bit too situational. I suppose I could have included Reckless Rush, since it doesn't fail and will always give the 3 seconds of Freeze.

Clerics are monsters these days. Their ability to lockdown targets the way they do is insane. As many complaints as paralyze gets, Seal of the God is around the same level as broken. Only it lasts longer and even though it comes with a 90% damage reduction on the target, the Cleric has many skills that can be used on the target with full effectiveness while it's up. But hey, I guess Blademasters are the neat thing to ***** about since nobody's used to them actually being a threat.

What world do you live in where BM's were never a threat? Vit barbs, and 90% of veno's are not a threat, Bm's another story. They aren't the best DD, but what they make up in is the ability to make it a living hell for groups of people at a time. As for Flame tsunami, Bm's are tanky as hell. If you can't survive being one shot below 75% HP on an HA class, you are doing something wrong.

I don't disagree with everything you say, but somethings I feel differently about based on my experience playing a BM, fighting Bm's, and thing that I hear from those that main BM's. May I remind you I'm in one of the top TW factions on my server. SO the BM's there give more reliable TW info than those that TW with smaller factions.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@ Zanryu: While I'm not as thick as you assume I am, I do understand what you are saying about locking ability of the BM versus damage during locking ability, my post was strickly about locking ability alone, not damage. You either missed that, or ignored it, to make a piont that is fairly obvious to anyone that TW's with or against these two classes. I am not a BM expert, but I am not ignorant of the class either.

Even disregarding the damage an Assassin's lock is still superior.


I have never seen the text for the skill, I was going on the book's description, and thank you for adding that. My comparison was for non-primal skills, mainly because there are a lot of sin books that have become rediculously priced, resulting in less people having them, or even attempting to open packs for them.

It's pointless to compare only non-primal skills, especially when the only skills the fish have difficult obtaining are the ones for Life Hunter and Elimination.

It is dishonest to boil down this to Sage Assassin vs Demon BM, considering not all sins are sage and not all BM's are demon. And least make the arguement fair by considering similar variable instead of producing ones that are one sided to say the least. It may work on others, but not me. I do agree with some of the things said, as I have experienced them myself, but strawmanning is just so wrong mate.

There is virtually no difference between a Sage and Demon Assassin lock, aside from Demons having superior stuns and a 2 second longer cooldown on Deep Sting. While the extra stun time is nice, it isn't needed to maintain an efficient lock. I use Sage as an example as it is the most commonly used path for PvP, however my examples will still more or less apply to Demon Assassins.

Demon happens to be the common path for PvP for my class, so it was used as an example. If you want to argue that we have a better lock, this would be the obvious cultivation you would use in the argument as Sages have access to less stuns, and they aren't as efficient as their Demon counterpart.

Either way, cultivation does not change the result of this argument. Assassins have a better lock regardless of which cultivation of which class you're comparing.


What world do you live in where BM's were never a threat? Vit barbs, and 90% of veno's are not a threat, Bm's another story. They aren't the best DD, but what they make up in is the ability to make it a living hell for groups of people at a time. As for Flame tsunami, Bm's are tanky as hell. If you can't survive being one shot below 75% HP on an HA class, you are doing something wrong.

The problem isn't surviving, the problem is maintaining that level of HP long enough to make use of the skill. That aspect can be a bit tricky, I have to wonder how you believe you're qualified to comment on my class when you don't seem to grasp how certain skills are to be used or the requirements for using them successfully.

I don't disagree with everything you say, but somethings I feel differently about based on my experience playing a BM, fighting Bm's, and thing that I hear from those that main BM's. May I remind you I'm in one of the top TW factions on my server. SO the BM's there give more reliable TW info than those that TW with smaller factions.

Being in a top TW faction =/= knowledge of your class/other's classes. It can certainly help, but if you aren't able to fully understand that information it does nothing for you. What faction you're in holds no relevance here.

In reply to the parts of your post that were quoted within a quote:

Superior? Or different? You seem to love misrepresenting the argument, you also assume that dark matter is dense ( a partical that has no size/weight and can't even be detected).

Superior. Blademasters are known for their ability to stun multiple targets, however of the skils that have that ability only one is reliable. Outside of Roar of the Pride our viable stuns are mainly used on single targets. We have AoE CC in the form of Blade Hurl, MSS, Bolt of Tyreseus, and other skills but we have no ability to lock down groups of people for prolonged periods of time. I stated that Assassins have a superior single target lock, and they do. It's less predictable and they sacrifice no damage to maintain it.

Aren't a lot of the sins skills you listed situational as well?

Not in the sense that they'd be comparable. You can make use of the Assassin chi skills at nearly any time and not have wasted a move, chi, or any type of resource. In fact they GIVE you chi, which is what makes them so good. The Blademaster skills ARE situational. Flame Tsunami, Reckless Rush, Smack, these are all skills that can't be misused or they will have been wasted. However, the Assassin skills mentioned can be used more or less freely with no cost to the user. They just have to go in, lock a target, use chi skills, and they're good to go again assuming they're at least remotely decent at the class.

This argument was about locking ability, not locking+damage, or locking+chi. Which class can consistantly lock you down and make it extremely hard to get away? That is the question.I find that both can, in various ways.

The Assassin's chi regeneration is what makes their locking ability the absolute monster that it is. Without that they'd be a far more balanced class, forced to consider the cost of their attacks rather than being able to go in with a lock and come out of it with virtually no resource cost. Both classes can lock targets down, but I notice Assassins are far more proficient with keeping them down.

If you want to go there, BM's can rely on marrow's, and inate tankyness to survive retaliation, an assassin generally can not.

Marrows can only prevent one type of damage, and it weakens the user to the opposite type. Marrows have an actual cost, there isn't a buff used by Assassins that costs anything but a cooldown. Assassins have the strongest buffs in the game, no other class's buffs are comparable. In a game where status is required to land kills, Assassins have the ultimate defense. It is literally not possible to beat an equal geared player without the use of status, unless they stand there and take your hits. On paper, it looks like Blademasters have higher defense, because they do. Our defense numbers are far higher, however in practice? Assassins have the absolute best buffs in the game due to passively being able to dodge status and the ability to survive death blows. I would trade my tankyness for Tidal any day of the week, I would trade my tankyness for the amount of chi Assassins get any day of the weak, and I doubt there's a large amount of people who wouldn't sacrifice something just to obtain half of the perks that Assassins have.

I never said better, I said different. Clearly reading comprehesion is lacking on these forums, you basically wrote a page to refute a claim i never made.

I'm the one that said their lock is better, obviously you never said that or we wouldn't be debating this. Looks like it isn't my reading comprehension that's lacking.


Or as a way to counter purify, getting CCed, or to simply disable someone from a fight.

Countering PS in 1v1 requires being able to kill the caster within 7 seconds due to the 3 second disarm. It's more viable for this purpose in group PvP. Most classes can use skills even without a weapon, it won't prevent much CC. Disabling someone from a fight is still a situational use, Blade Hurl is a very easy skill to waste on a bad target.

55% is not a low chance, what are you playing at? 33% is, but for 0 chi cost, I dont see a downside to its use other than time.

They're both unreliable, that means the only time you'd want to use them is if you're just hoping for dumb luck or if your main stuns are on cooldown. It's a low enough chance that neither can be depended on.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

His video suggests otherwise, he has 37k hp, and that is quite monstrous, and his gear isn't lacking either. I remember seeing in that video he got hit for 13k, even with hp @40k that would easily take out the remaining 25%, (25% of 40k =10k, and 13k is greater than 10k) yes those hits are rare, but still it is more than possible.

His post would suggest that he doesn't understand how to properly make use of Flame Tsunami.

tsyfall wrote: »

I can't judge BMs though.

You're starting to sound like a broken record at this point. Perhaps you should just admit to your man crush on me, accept that I'll never reciprocate those feelings, and move on with your life rather than stalk me on the forums and on youtube. b:cute

It's okay Neil, it's okay to have these feelings. Just accept who you are.

tsyfall wrote: »

GG????????????? Nah, I only stalk pvp topics on forums/yt

Very BG.

To all the sins here claiming bm (demon) and sin (sage) are on pair in regard to crowd control ability, they should stop to have a point of view limited to the mere skills and look at a theorical pvp trade scenario

most of the bms crowd control abilities wont land trough sage tidal,
tidal doesnt use resources, it is a passive skill, it doesn't even take the microeffort of spending that fraction of second to press an antiCC\cleanse skill

while the bm will waste resources to try CC and maybe use an antiCC\cleanse feature
and while the sin lock will land anyways anyhow

i really believe that paralyze should be reworked and be able to bypass tidal


also to who said: Vit barbs, and 90% of veno's are not a threat

seen the direction this game is taking,

demon venomancer is one of the most solid classes in game with nice beefyness in fox form, nice kiting skills, crowd control, purge and especially demon ironwood+p atk skill that will be able to oneshot anyclass @ endgame

and vit barb, not a threat? paralyze loop + unkillable = if you get caught by one of them in mass pvp you are dead?

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

... if you think BMs are powerful, wait until you get a Sin up close. Status evasion, even better magical resistances due to light armor, self healing

Even better magical resistance?

A Sin can tank magical DD better than a BM? are you some type of fking idiot?

Self healing?

Dear lord i have no idea what your talking about but please don't tell me your talking about blood paint.

The most op class in game are sins. They do more damage than bms and survive better than them because bms are easily debuffed, while for sins you need to be lucky, or wait for tidal to wear off, and make sure you don't get cheated by their genie or a spark.

And even though paralize is op, at least that can be countered by draining their chi.

Idk, I've personally never had huge issues with BMs, not even after NH and their paralyze. Sure they're tanky, but not offensive enough.