test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Curious About Damage :0

2»

Comments

  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The only thing you do is act like a pure mag purist and anything that's not pure mag AA as a veno is doomed to fail.

    The only thing you do is lash out emotionally when I make valid points.
    But... that doesn't make the build almighty. Like I pointed out, the pure mag AA build for venos has it's fair share of flaws such as the low hp and p.def.

    You get a pathetic amount of HP by stating vit. Plenty of pdef comes from foxform, ornaments, imbues. You go on to bring up points I've already made as if you're supporting what I said, but in denial.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Eoria - HarshlandsEoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    HA/LA build should really not be done at this point in time unless you're ready to invest in a full g16 Nirvana set and the proper orns and +10 all of them. Otherwise, you gonna be squishy as **** to any r9rr caster. I lost the ****ing math I was doing for it last night, but wep was about ~225m, the armor set about ~1bil, and then about ~350m for +10 Cube neck and Warsong belt (wep and armor will be more if you buy crafting and Cube neck will be more if you don't farm it and just buy it off of someone). This is ~1.5bil you could just put towards r9rr. In fact, you could get an entire set of r9rr and have money left over (about 250m left over assuming you buy gold around 1.8m).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I had a discussion with my game husband the other day and we figured some things out...note that this is not an attack to anyone's build, playstyle or choices.


    Let's take an "endgame" build and an average player build to compare.


    Maxed out endgame build scenario:
    With a typical fully buffed Venomancer, Sage fox form, Sage mastery, Demon bell, Sage HP buff.


    LA build I'm sorry I don't know exactly how a LA veno would stat so I don't know if this is correct, feel free to correct me

    AA build Game husband's calculator

    HA build Using muerta's calculator


    HA gets 1% more physical damage reduction than AA (90% vs 89%)
    HA gets about 3k more HP than AA.
    LA and AA get similar HP (22k).
    AA gets 1% more magic damage reduction than HA.
    Both have the same critical hit rate.
    AA gets a lot more magic attack (17k-23k vs. 25k-35k)
    LA and HA get similar magic attack.
    AA gets about 10 more attack levels (approximately) than HA and LA.
    AA gets 10 more defence levels (approximately) than HA and LA.
    HA gets slightly more physical attack (10k-11k vs. 9k-10k)
    LA gets 7% less physical damage reduction than HA and 6% less than AA (unless we switch out ornaments).
    LA gets 1% more magic damage reduction than AA and 2% more than HA (unless we switch out ornaments).
    LA gets a lot more critical hit rate (25% in that calculator vs. 16% of HA and AA - values chance if demon masteries)
    AA can hit 800 magic for the damage multiplier.

    You can play around with the buffs (Sage bell, Demon Fox Form etc.) but these are more or less the results.

    EDIT: Additionally tested that with two rings that offer +50% accuracy, Fox Form (+200%/+250% accuracy) and 60 Dex average (see caclculator) AA Venomancers can actually hit with fox form attacks fairly often. HA will have a higher advantage and LA will have the highest of all but AA can now achieve a decent amount of accuracy.

    This only applied in a maxed out endgame scenario.


    Average player build scenario:
    With a typical fully buffed Venomancer, Sage fox form, Sage mastery, Demon bell, Sage HP buff.

    AA build though I'd personally go for WOCC for the physical defence but let's just go with full G16 Nirvana here

    HA build just a quick one, not sure if that's a right build but feel free to correct me

    LA build same comment as above

    AA Vit build

    HA gets 89% physical damage reduction, LA gets 79% (82% with phys.neck/belt or so), AA gets 78% (80% with WOCC).
    HA gets 73% magic damage reduction, AA 82%, LA 79%.
    All have the same attack and defence levels.
    AA gets 18k-20k magic attack, LA gets 12k-14k and HA gets 10k-12k, AA Vit build gets 16-18k.
    AA hits 600 magic multiplier, LA hits 400, HA stays at 300, AA vit hits 500.
    HA and AA get same/similar critical hit rate (10-11%), LA gets 17%. (values change if demon masteries)
    AA gets 5k-6k physical attack, LA gets 7k-8k and HA 9k-11k.
    AA has 11k HP, LA 12k HP, HA 13k HP (almost 14k), AA Vit build 12k HP.


    Change Demon/Sage buffs around and ornaments but the values are more or less like this. Feel free to correct the HA/LA builds if you feel something's not right.

    If you question why I'm presenting these calculators fully buffed is because;
    - Spirit of Defence and Spirit of Assault are now available to us so it's possible to be buffed most of the time.
    - One of the strongest points of the Venomancer in PvP is the fact that they can remain fully buffed while purging off the enemy's buffs.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I had a discussion with my game husband the other day and we figured some things out...note that this is not an attack to anyone's build, playstyle or choices.[/COLOR]

    How dare you resort to logic and reasoning?! Don't you understand that this is a name calling, trash talking, emo forum?
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    How dare you resort to logic and reasoning?! Don't you understand that this is a name calling, trash talking, emo forum?

    ..but b:sad
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • SanChan - Heavens TearSanChan - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Desdi thanks for those numbers and the effort b:thanks

    as those numbers show yes AA is best but cost effective? Ye its true if u have 1 char its ok but if u can share the equipment between ur chars HA isnt that bad and alot cheaper if u compare it with r9rrr for only 1 char. The big+ i give HA is the def reduction in non Fox form and no buffs is arround 23% higher compared to AA while AA has only 11% more Mag reduction as HA
  • Eoria - HarshlandsEoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Desdi thanks for those numbers and the effort b:thanks

    as those numbers show yes AA is best but cost effective? Ye its true if u have 1 char its ok but if u can share the equipment between ur chars HA isnt that bad and alot cheaper if u compare it with r9rrr for only 1 char. The big+ i give HA is the def reduction in non Fox form and no buffs is arround 23% higher compared to AA while AA has only 11% more Mag reduction as HA

    Sharing HA between chars and having one of them be a magic class is an outlier case. If we're talking just one char, yes, you should just go r9rr.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    tweakz wrote: »
    How dare you resort to logic and reasoning?! Don't you understand that this is a name calling, trash talking, emo forum?

    Says the guy that has shown exactly 0 equations
    Channels

    youtube .com/user/WallyPWS Active

    youtube .com/user/tehnewblife Semi Inactive
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Account stashing, sharing gear, budget available, playstyle...whatever people choose and make out of this is something I don't care about but I wanted to post some proof and numbers to clarify any misconception or misinformation and I think that when someone is considering a build for their Venomancer, they ought to know the up and downs and how they compare with other builds.

    I'm just glad it helped!
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Says the guy that has shown exactly 0 equations

    Have you? I get tired of proving people wrong over and over and all they do is carry on time and again with their trolling like you're doing.

    I'm surprised Desdi bothered. We've already had many defenders of those off builds post their calcs, and I've given them responses showing how much cheaper they could get the same results.

    It's not my fault we have a huge amount of fail, and obsolete advice posted as stickies, When time and again someone like Desdi comes along and shows with numbers and examples rather than assumptions.

    I've been arguing that the only reason to use those builds is if you're using swap equips or you want to be melee only. -Have I been wrong? Who's job should it have been to try to prove LA/HA were logical choices? -Instead it was emotional outbursts which is enough evidence for me. If readers can't see through their illogic and lack of ability to reason; Idc. I wrote for the ones that could.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Marengo - Lost CityMarengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Tweakz, let me ask you something: Does it really matter in the end? Your opinion is yours alone and everyone else had their own opinions on stuff. I gave my fair share of objective details about the LA venos. Also, why say compensators? Am I not right to say that casters compensate for their low p.def stat by investing into p.def neck/belt ornaments.
    There is a difference. Full mag veno maximizes her attack, full vit - HP. And they can take advantage of this in many situations. But in LA build nothing is maxed. All average. And it doesn't become invincible, so i don't think it's an even exchange. Crit is slightly better, but purposeful AA can get it as well. or very close to it. it's not 20 vs 50% difference. It doesn't matter that much.
    What people tend to forget, is that there was a time before R9, were hybrid builds were significantly more present. TT99 was endgame gear, and nix was still scaring the hell outa arcane classes.
    This. There was. But times changed and attitude to builds changed and their effectiveness changed too.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    youtube.com/elmarise
    pw art ◊ tinyurl.com/q6ca7ar ◊
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    LA was still losing arguments back in tt99. It's been this way a long time. They've always failed to justify the build with numbers.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    tweakz wrote: »

    I'm surprised Desdi bothered.

    I ended up having a chat with my game husband on skype and he started playing around with calculators and so did I so.. I thought I might as well post it b:chuckle

    This. There was. But times changed and attitude to builds changed and their effectiveness changed too.

    One more reason to post those numbers; there are people who still say things based on what builds used to be but things have changed.

    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Pelli - DreamweaverPelli - Dreamweaver Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    You know what, arguing with you is just pointless. Not only am I am arguing against "some" overly-stubborn people but I'm wasting my time trying to convince some people that my build is legit and that I can go somewhere with it.

    I should have just done the same thing I do all the time, ignore the trolls, and just keep doing my thing. There's no point arguing with people whom you can't see eye-to-eye with.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Ponies! :3
  • Vitenka - DreamweaverVitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Veno's ARE intended to be half magic, half melee.

    I personally dislike the LA build, it does reduce magic as extremely as an HA/AA build does; without adding enough defensive benefit to compensate. The increased crit scares me too - crit's usually a bad thing for me. But I can see it being nice for PVP.

    Vit hybrid - we get a pretty good return on our points here. We're no barbs, but adding, say, 600 HP is a pretty expensive set of gems. And, of course, it's on top of your gems and refines and meridians. I really like having an unbuffed 6k HP. But.. yeah; there's fewer ways of improving magic attack than there are of improving HP. So when I get a bit more coin, I'm probably going to restat it into magic (I've got about 50 vit statted), and refine a couple of times to compensate.

    It's really REALLY nice while you're building up. But as you hit endgame gear, it gets less good.

    HA/AA is something I really fancy. No bonus HP, so no tanking like a barb - but potentially the same armour when you need it? Yummy. The downside of seriously reduced healing and damage, is pretty major though. You'd really need a top-end weapon to do it; and no chance of being a channel godling.


    Regarding delta:
    Our AOEs aren't constant the way AOE classes are, but they're still damn good.
    I've never had trouble getting invited. Lots of squads know what myriad rainbow does, and want it.
    And I kinda like the emergence of spawnpoint delta for BHs. It means far fewer runs where I get relegated to digging beans (which I'm really really good at; but boy is it boring) and watch the run fail without even the tiniest involvement and chance to help.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Regarding delta:
    Our AOEs aren't constant the way AOE classes are, but they're still damn good.
    I've never had trouble getting invited. Lots of squads know what myriad rainbow does, and want it.
    And I kinda like the emergence of spawnpoint delta for BHs. It means far fewer runs where I get relegated to digging beans (which I'm really really good at; but boy is it boring) and watch the run fail without even the tiniest involvement and chance to help.

    A little off topic but I'll also add; now the Hercules can actually tank waves so Venomancers can provide a back-up tank (unless they just tank themselves but we kinda lack the aggro skill Hercules comes with) and for those who have the Harpy; it has constant AOE so our ability to DD is improved. It comes with AOE stun too.
    Also, being able to seal & freeze monsters is not something to forget about; it can replace a Blademaster's Roar when there isn't one around.

    @ Pelli - well, no matter what you choose to do there will always be people to oppose our choices and opinions, some are right and some are wrong but that's how things are.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Vitenka - DreamweaverVitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Huh; I know the evolved herc tanks the bosses stupid good; but I hadn't thought of throwing it at a wave.

    On topic - my biggest hits in foxform are 15k, and my biggest in arcane are 30-40k. These are with everything lining up right though (myriad landing armour/mind break, amp, hf)
    Normal hits are sub 10k and around 20k. I'm a channel-fox though, not a good guide for maximum crit size. (And I don't have sage nova yet, either)
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    My Herc can't tank all waves up to 3 yet. It also does **** dmg compared to me. My strategy has been to get off at least 3-4 good aoes before having Herc take aggro. -During that time the mobs are confused (don't know what to aggro), stunned, sealed, etc anyway.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Celestial Giant can tank the first few waves, but I'm not sure having you spam heal it is an efficient use of you in the squad. Last time in Delta (a wave 5) I used harpy instead.

    As for damage... I can hit sludgestalkers for close to 60k with triple spark lucky crit with no amps (and I'm 101, so still have a level nerf on attacks on them.) In fox, I hit 5kish normal auto-attacks; I've hit 25k with triple spark-amp-mired, not sure if crit and probably with befuddling or leech, my two go-to skills in fox.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
    thejapanesepage.com/ebooks/yuki_no_monogatari_manga
  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    On Topic: I don't recommend LA not so much for the damage loss as for the fact that you sort of lose out on both ends of defense. As an Archer it's a pain in the *** to decide what kind of def orn I want to put, since both sides hit me pretty hard

    tweakz wrote: »
    Have you?

    That's funny; everything below this is not relevant and neither here nor there

    Spoiler tags don't seem to exist on this forum so bear with the wall of text
    Maybe it's because you're a veno. As they say on our server, KOSvenos b:laugh

    On topic: LA inevitably falls into the archers' and sins' dilemma of having bad def on both ends. Because you get a slight m.def boost from statting magic and because your rings are refinable, though, and because you intend to use your veno as a caster (I think?), you get the option of getting mdef from decent rings, which will cost an arm and a leg.

    Example LA build: http://pwcalc.com/a67210a1e94f692f Putting on lowest requirement items with additional wielding-stats (dex and str) help you minimize the amount of points taken out of magic. Level 3 fox form because I was not sure about culti

    Here's what I can tell you for each path (assuming 90 atk levels with jones):

    AA: max. magic damage, min. pdef, max. m.def

    LA: med. m.def, med. p.def, total loss of magic damage from pure AA is a loss of (104-54)+(104-5) = 199 magic, which, with G16 + 10 and an incomparable sapphire shard (easily farmed in weekly sot/abba) you lose 2170.1 base magic attack, roughly 4123.2 on a 0-def level (pve) target

    HA: min. m.def, max p. def, total loss of magic damage from pure AA is a loss of (252-54)+(54-5)=247 magic, equal to (same weapon as above) 2693.5 base m.atk, 5117.7 after atk levels

    All calculated values are based on an average damage value for G16 + 10 sword with G10 sapphire shard.

    Attack level considerations are approximate
    Sage APS:

    For a Sage BM to be 5aps, s/he will need:

    Full set of the bad stuff: TT99, G15, TT99 orns

    Either R8R chest with -int or 2X int on weapon (usually this means s/he is stuck with Deicides/Striking Dragons, neither of which is remotely good)

    On top of that s/he will need to cyclone heel every 15 seconds (Sage Cyclone CD reduced to 15 seconds), a total of 2 seconds lost every spark cycle, or 2 seconds between his/er spark cycles, depending on when s/he casts Cyclone.

    http://pwcalc.com/25e1e56865f665cd

    >>>>

    LA Orn + HA vs. HA orn vs. LA

    HA orn

    http://pwcalc.com/25e1e56865f665cd

    LA orn

    http://pwcalc.com/7deb3e6182b9ffc8

    +10'd with Vit stones, the HA refining bonus is a glorious 512 HP in exchange for a 9.7% loss in P. Defense (2% loss in reduction) and 13.6% M. Defense (3% Reduction).

    At lower gear levels, both HA orns and decent rings +5'd will pretty much overtake the defense bonus of HA arms and legs.

    >>>

    Demon v. Sage

    Tell your mum to switch to demon.

    With a -0.1 weapon a demon can potentially look like

    http://pwcalc.com/71ad4571bd02fd5f

    which is a hell lot more defensive than the sage spark reduction on mix G15/G16/TT99, not the least because the lack of need to cast Cyclone heel gives you 2 seconds more DD time, which amounts to a lot more chi and BP returns.

    If you went for -0.05 int and r8r with -int, a demon can look like this with SDs (or 2X -int G16 fists)

    http://pwcalc.com/7e0f8842a09632a0

    Finally as a Demon with Demon bell you can (and should) constantly keep up the 75% pdef spike for your squad, as well as provide a better HF, have better marrows, better CC with demon roar never missing, and (marginally) better damage spikes from demon mastery crits (sage mastery isn't that much better; the addition is to your WEAPON damage, which means that the actual effect is not big at all; it's probably under 1K on axes but I've done so much math for you already; on +10 SDs it's a pitiful 263 damage).

    EDIT: And here comes tweakz, who thinks a tiny bit of extra physical damage gained from going pure str 60 dex is worth massive DD, 12 second triple spark cycles, BP heals, tankability, accuracy, crit, better survivability (unless you statted pure Vit? Roll a WB noob), more HF/GS/MSS than a derpa-axe can ever hope to provide, loss of damage from having to stat ambers to not miss everything. You may not out-damage a sin but you will outdamage everything except maybe a claw archer or claw barb, and even then you have the mastery advantage.

    If you're crying about separate gear sets being too expensive then get the **** off of a WR and roll an EP or something; one gearset that isn't even that great covers your *** all the way.

    EDIT: Let's see Demon Highland Cleave with +5 R9r axes (R9rr is too variable to use as an example), both axes having ths same str add (like 1 str even makes a difference). Say APS BM has 500 str, you would have 640.

    You gain: 140 str on average, lose garnets, your axes end up with damage range 1219-2562

    APS BM: 140 str less, 2 Garnet Gems (+150 wep attack), damage range 1369-2712

    Demon Highland:

    ○Highland Cleave

    Range Melee
    Mana 210.0
    Channel 0.4 seconds
    Cast 2.0 seconds
    Cooldown 6.0 seconds
    Weapon Axe, Poleaxe, Hammer or Polehammer

    Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Void
    Wields the force of a mountain to deal base physical damage plus 100% of weapon
    damage plus 3233.0. Affects all enemies
    within a 10 meter radius. Has a chance to increase attack rate.

    Demon version gives a 20% chance to increase attack rate by 25% for 10 seconds.

    Low end of spectrum:

    You: (640/150)*1.75*1219 + 1219 + 3233= 13533.9
    APS BM: (500/150)*1.75*1369 + 1219 + 3233 = 12437.8

    Great, you hit harder, congrats. Let's subtract: 13533.9-12437.8=1095.8, a gain of 8.8%

    Higher end:

    You: (640/150)*1.75*2562 + 2562 + 3233 =24927.5
    APS BM: (500/150)*1.75*2712+2712+3233=21765

    Great, you hit harder, congrats. Let's subtract: 24927.5-21765=[COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]3162.5[/COLOR], a gain of 14.5%

    Most endgame APS BMs in their axe gear will have over 600 STR anyways, IDK how much you have, but for all the benefits of APS you throw away...you have gained 8.8%-14.5% damage on HL. Congratulations. Dragons count the same wep. damage, the rest of the usual AoEs don't count any weapon damage.

    On the other hand, the APSer will have 6% more crit, which already eats up at least 1/2 to 1/3 of your AOE dps, and since this is BM we're talking about, you're thinking of 6% more zerkcrits. Highland is only 100% wep damage. Blade Tornado is 450%, Flame Tsunami is 200%. Your damage lead is disappearing really quickly.

    Final thing: Say your tank goes down because of say, lag, cleric DC's (happens lol), or surprise purge (Primal Fear?) or because something like WS wep boss hit with weapon damage debuff with chi skills on CD and spark fresh out. If you were APS, aggro turns to you, boss basically shifts direction, squad goes on. You are heavy armor and survive.

    But you're not APS; you have built no aggro whatsoever, tank dies, you have no aggro, boss runs towards the archers and casters, aoe everywhere, debuffs everywhere if boss does that, squishy ranged toons run around, tank resses but can't catch the boss again, lolwipe.

    Replies in red

    I wrote out a very considerable, long, and mathy reply but posted after you did. Let me quote the part I edited and which I think is most important



    By using fists you gain at least secondary or tertiary aggro. If a sin or two are before you and they die, boss still stays in place and you keep tanking it. If they're smart they CotD, subsea strike and let you build up aggro (very quickly; G16 fist/dagger difference is no longer so small) so your better defense can take over. With out your APS aggro the archer is going to be tanking (I have tanked water/wood boss at least twice each now, due to lol debuff killing tanks).

    EDIT: I highly recommend you think over the fact that you only get about a 8.8%-14.3% raw damage increase by losing 140 dex.
    Channels

    youtube .com/user/WallyPWS Active

    youtube .com/user/tehnewblife Semi Inactive
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    On the delta note, I've actually had my Hercules tank st3 waves as a test but it is indeed not very effective compared to you DDing.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
Sign In or Register to comment.