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Sage or Demon, opinions?

Ezio_Sin - Heavens TearEzio_Sin - Heavens Tear Posts: 175 Arc User
edited June 2013 in Seeker
I would like to know from your personal experience which was better pve wise? Sage or demon? Would aps be good on a seeker? Which one offers better survivability? Which one would kill mobs faster? Thanks xD
Post edited by Ezio_Sin - Heavens Tear on
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  • Mattiks - DreamweaverMattiks - Dreamweaver Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Hey Ezio, don't take this the wrong way because I don't mean to be rude, but there are guides on this forum to actually help you compare Sage and Demon skills, and if you research a little, maybe use the search function, there have been many thread's about this before, and the general consensus is that Sage seekers are much better. Sorry, I just get frustrated with seeing this topic over and over again, lol.

    But yes, Sage is in fact the better choice, for various reasons. I will simplify them. Sage seekers do more damage because the sage skill "Blade and Sword Mastery" is 15% higher than the demon version, and also sage skills generally have more damage bonuses than demon skills. Also, the sage spark provides a 25% damage resistance buff, which adds even more to the classes survivability when utilized. (The demon spark, alternatively, gives an aps boost which is useless for seekers really, since we are a skill based class.)

    Although Demon seekers have become a more viable option since PWI's skill balancing, just go Sage and save yourself a facepalm ;)
  • Zheii - ArchosaurZheii - Archosaur Posts: 2,732 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ...I seriously facepalmed at "would aps be good on a seeker" ..No... Just... No no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
    -Go Sage, more dmg/anti stuns/etc
    -Sage has more survivablity since the sage Adrenal Numbness has more defence levels.
    -Both would kill mobs at a similar rate ._.
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  • Horugou - Raging TideHorugou - Raging Tide Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Mattiks,
    I understand you giving advice to go sage to a new guy,
    I do too 90% of the time, I myself am sage...
    But to say sage is better I find an offense of the highest order.
    I know seekers who ROCK while being demon. The seeker with second highest kills on RT
    is a demon, and I respect him as a peer, rival faction or not. I regret that I don't get to
    fight him 1 on 1, I would be thrilled if he would.

    SweetieBot, please deduct 10 points from Mattiks - Dreamweaver
  • SweetieBot - LothranisSweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited May 2013
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  • Mattiks - DreamweaverMattiks - Dreamweaver Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Mattiks,
    I understand you giving advice to go sage to a new guy,
    I do too 90% of the time, I myself am sage...
    But to say sage is better I find an offense of the highest order.
    I know seekers who ROCK while being demon. The seeker with second highest kills on RT
    is a demon, and I respect him as a peer, rival faction or not. I regret that I don't get to
    fight him 1 on 1, I would be thrilled if he would.

    Sorry Horugou, didn't mean to offend. But I've been playing a seeker since the minute they first came out, and I have seen this question hundreds of times. And always, both on forums and in game, the majority of seekers have agreed Sage is better. It isn't just me. The higher damage output and survivability is undeniable. I did say that demon has become more viable since the skill balancing, because vast improvements were made. That isn't to say that there aren't great Demon seekers, or that it's a horrible choice. On my server though, there is only one relevant Demon seeker that I know of, and his gear is basically maxed out. But with nice gear, the fine line fades. The others just tend to be aps crazy and I just facepalm whenever I see them.

    And I won't ask for you to recieve a point reduction, because I do value you're opinion :)
  • soundslegitsoundslegit Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The problem with APS is its useless for PVP and not very useful for PVE. Level 11 Heartshatter will amp skill damage by 50%. A non aps build spamming skills will probably out DD a demon seeker with aps gear. I'm sure if you spend enough money on aps gear you could come up with a build that out DDs skill spamming but money can fix any problem in this game so that doesn't impress me.

    This simple: aps is useless for PVP and with a 50% amp to skills but not autoattacks there is no reason to go aps for PVE. Please don't do it.

    I picked sage but if you really like demon go for it no one will really care and it does have advantages. But going aps seems like spending a lot of money on something that in the end will disappoint you.
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  • Zanryu - DreamweaverZanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    SweetieBot remove 2 points from oVenusArmanio


    SweetieBot give 4 points to Mattiks - Dreamweaver.


    Tryna be helpful son
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  • SweetieBot - LothranisSweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited May 2013
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  • Alsiadorra - SanctuaryAlsiadorra - Sanctuary Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I think times have changed now and both is viable.

    When seeker came out, it was evident that sage was the only way to go.

    Then updates past and demon starting looking more attractive.

    It all comes down to this in my opinion:

    Demon Vortex, or no demon vortex.

    And the archetype for demon is generally geared towards PVP, so take that into account as well.
  • PotatoHeadQR - DreamweaverPotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,507 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'm sure if you spend enough money on aps gear you could come up with a build that out DDs skill spamming

    actually that's not true. aps gear is limited; as a seeker you are probably stuck with a standard set and then you'll want r9rr+12; that's all you can do. as you start spending more money, you cant imporve the aps buil while the skill spamming becomes more efficient due to set bonuses.
    you only purge once #yopo
  • Alsiadorra - SanctuaryAlsiadorra - Sanctuary Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I donno man, maybe its possible to get 4 or 5aps now, with all the stupid gear that's currently out.
  • Zheii - ArchosaurZheii - Archosaur Posts: 2,732 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I think times have changed now and both is viable.

    When seeker came out, it was evident that sage was the only way to go.

    Then updates past and demon starting looking more attractive.

    It all comes down to this in my opinion:

    Demon Vortex, or no demon vortex.

    And the archetype for demon is generally geared towards PVP, so take that into account as well.

    The two points I have highlighted in Red don't match up? anyone want to guess why? :O
    Vortexing in PvP? Yes? anyone wanna roast a turkey in vort? oh wait... it's going to run awaaayyyyyyyyyy... opps, well that was a waste of two sparks.
    Next bright idea? anyone?
    (ofc there are certain situations where it is usefully, but not many and besides ED > Vort)
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  • Mattiks - DreamweaverMattiks - Dreamweaver Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The two points I have highlighted in Red don't match up? anyone want to guess why? :O
    Vortexing in PvP? Yes? anyone wanna roast a turkey in vort? oh wait... it's going to run awaaayyyyyyyyyy... opps, well that was a waste of two sparks.
    Next bright idea? anyone?
    (ofc there are certain situations where it is usefully, but not many and besides ED > Vort)

    Yeah vortex is more of a PvE skill.. but then again, I use to vortex in TW all the time, and it was highly effective. It can knock the other faction out of base or off crystal and also keep them confined in their base. On multiple occasions in TW and NW both, I've used unfetter, popped an IG, set vortex in the middle of a crowd, and watched the bodies hit the floor. It is tricky to pull off perfectly, and most of the time you end up dying unless you have a way to get free of the survivors.. like AD or ToP, but you can take quite a few people out before you die, so it can be an effect PvP skill, if used correctly.
  • soundslegitsoundslegit Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Yeah vortex is more of a PvE skill.. but then again, I use to vortex in TW all the time, and it was highly effective. It can knock the other faction out of base or off crystal and also keep them confined in their base. On multiple occasions in TW and NW both, I've used unfetter, popped an IG, set vortex in the middle of a crowd, and watched the bodies hit the floor. It is tricky to pull off perfectly, and most of the time you end up dying unless you have a way to get free of the survivors.. like AD or ToP, but you can take quite a few people out before you die, so it can be an effect PvP skill, if used correctly.

    The Leroy Jenkins maneuver.
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  • Alsiadorra - SanctuaryAlsiadorra - Sanctuary Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The two points I have highlighted in Red don't match up? anyone want to guess why? :O
    Vortexing in PvP? Yes? anyone wanna roast a turkey in vort? oh wait... it's going to run awaaayyyyyyyyyy... opps, well that was a waste of two sparks.
    Next bright idea? anyone?
    (ofc there are certain situations where it is usefully, but not many and besides ED > Vort)

    With the amount of stupid people playing you would be surprised.

    But seriously though, lets assume a player gets demon for PVE. Free stun every 3 seconds XD.
  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Sage vortex for the extra 2 meter radius in which to get paint heals

    Note that you can comfortably hit some ranged mobs too
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  • Zheii - ArchosaurZheii - Archosaur Posts: 2,732 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Yeah vortex is more of a PvE skill.. but then again, I use to vortex in TW all the time, and it was highly effective. It can knock the other faction out of base or off crystal and also keep them confined in their base. On multiple occasions in TW and NW both, I've used unfetter, popped an IG, set vortex in the middle of a crowd, and watched the bodies hit the floor. It is tricky to pull off perfectly, and most of the time you end up dying unless you have a way to get free of the survivors.. like AD or ToP, but you can take quite a few people out before you die, so it can be an effect PvP skill, if used correctly.

    I did say useful in PvP in some occasions, and I myself have done this, and would actually say that Sage is more of an advantage, because of the larger range you have the ability to kill more people, therefore knock more people back to base, and etc :3.
    -that's only to knock DD's back to base though, what I usually do is; Unfetter/IG/EB/VoidStep to cata barb/watch as they die through invoke :D.
    And while I'm there maybe spam a few aoes, just to give that extra bit of dmg~
    Or a very clever thing to do would be, while your standing in the middle of them all using EB target their clerics at the back and hit them all with a nice big aoe.. like Gemini.
    So all in one move you've killed a cata barb (or two they usually group together) and taken out some clerics in the process :D.

    The Leroy Jenkins maneuver.

    You must know my friend.. Rambo... <.< >.>
    With the amount of stupid people playing you would be surprised.

    But seriously though, lets assume a player gets demon for PVE. Free stun every 3 seconds XD.

    Hahaha, Yea, I am well aware that are plenty of idiots out there, And Demon vort is pretty nice, but still, you're sacrificing a lot, as-well as damage just so a 2spark skill, that you don't get the opportunity to use in PvP all that often is better than the average bear, and anyone in their right mind is going to interrupt you as soon as you put it up.
    Sage vortex for the extra 2 meter radius in which to get paint heals

    Note that you can comfortably hit some ranged mobs too

    +1, I adore my extra range in PvE, so lovely<3
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Queen of Silly, circa 2014, as conferred by the late great Proski Wallace.
  • Horugou - Raging TideHorugou - Raging Tide Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    b:bye first off, I wish everyone making aps seekers lots of fun going for endless rerolls on r8r b:chuckle

    next off, if you have the money to do that, you could also be getting R9RR, +10 or better... and tank more effectively, while dealing as much damage as a seeker with aps.
    Reason being? Aps seekers will lack either attack levels or zerk on the weapon that gets them to 3.33+ aps, severely nerfing their DPS. Not to mention that the sword has a naturally low rate of attack, requiring double int on one or several r8r parts, which will be a pain in the neck to get b:chuckle

    Anyways, for the argument of demon:
    the most obvious reasons to me are:
    Easier on chi than sage:
    Demon Rocksplitting:
    -Has a 20% chance to return 50 Chi when cast.
    Demon Battousai:
    -Recovers 5 extra Chi when cast.
    Demon Voidstep:
    -Has a 33% chance to be casted without costing Chi.

    Increase in time on Demon Blade Affinity (chance to get off an extra skill)
    (sage) 6 seconds lets you channel gemini, heart seeker + arme nier.
    (demon) 8 seconds lets you channel gemini, ionspike, heartseeker, arme nier.

    Increase in the debuff / stun of stances:
    Demon Northern Sky Waltz
    -Immoblizes the target for 1 more second
    Parchedblade Dance
    -Stuns the target for 1 more second
    Demon Soulsever Minuet
    -Decreases target's Attack and Defense level by 2 more levels

    Immobilizing on QpQ & increased immobilize on heartseeker
    Demon QPQ:
    -Also Immobilizes the target for 2 seconds.
    Demon Heartseeker:
    -Immobilize the target for 2 more seconds. (longest in the game apart from sage tackling slash).

    Two skills to remove debuffs:
    Demon Quid Pro Quo:
    -Transfer up to 10 of your debuffs to the target
    Demon Unfetter:
    -Dispells negative status effects. (even removes reduce max hp etc)

    Debuff
    Demon Ion Spike:
    -Reduces target's Metal Resistance for an additional 4 more seconds
    makes the reduction time 19 seconds, long enough to cast it again, when the target is metal debuffed. Unlike sages, who never get to use their strongest metal attack, being Ion Spike, combined with the metal debuff, demons get a chance to cycle through all their metal skills on an opponent before the debuff wears off b:victory

    Weapon Mastery
    Demon gives 1% Crit rate vs Sage giving 15% of weapon damage. 1% Crit might not seem like much, but the points stack, and they are felt by the opponent, you can be sure of that.

    I am only naming skills that are useful for PvP, as I am not too concerned with PvE,
    I think demon seekers have great potential in pve also.

    The Cons to demon seekers:
    The most obvious are:
    Absence of damage adds on sage skills, which are in the 600 to 2k range, a significant
    amount.
    Sage stun duration is longer on void step, silence is longer on QPQ, making demon harder to work with in some scenarios.
    Complete lack of stun / movement status resistance.

    First thoughts for demon seekers in PvP:
    Mainly, that a dex genie appears to be almost mandatory when fighting classes like sins or BMs which have an array of control skills.

    I've been typing for a while now, my brain is kinda going dry, I'll post more if thoughts come up XD

    p.s. any description info you read was taken from the Ecatomb Skill Database
  • Nalvaes - Raging TideNalvaes - Raging Tide Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    It's a matter of preference, as with all classes...

    That being said, sage gives you access to Master Li's Technique which you can use to get 50 chi instantly which helps if you have trouble building chi (which I did on my seeker)

    Best thing is...Blade affinity effects the cooldown time for it f:grin
    Chaos is an ally not something to avoid...After all, how can your foes stand up to you if they have no idea what your next move will be?


    Gear and weapons may make strong opponents but even a strong foe can be felled by the right tactics...
  • _Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear_Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    to put it simply :


    Sage

    Pros : Sage seeker offer more damage, almost all lvl sage seeker skills has dmg amped on their adds (2000 on gemini, 1600 on heartseeker etc) meaning if you want to hit the biggest dmg a seeker can do, go sage. sage also has anti stun which cost 0 chi which can come in handy when you're surrounded and needed to make a quick getaway or to do ironguard combo. sage seekers also have sage blade affinity to avoid debuffs and longer quid pro quo seal duration (as long as bm's smack but doesn't cost chi). Sage Vortex has bigger/longer range than demon vortex so you can catch more mobs in pve (or affect more people in tw when you do ironguard combo + vortex) b:sin



    Cons : No chi gaining skill except master li's technique. Unlike demon, sage seekers have to be abit careful with spending their chi vs their opponents. sage seeker also have abit less accuracy than demon seekers which can be abit harder to fight vs archers/sins who has good mag res. Sage seekers has somewhat less cc ability than demon seekers seeing as their lvl 11 skill adds focuses more on damage than debuff.


    Demon

    Pros : Demon seekers have longer debuff/more chance of applying stance than sage seekers. also both the chi gaining skill (RSC and battousai) are pretty much spammable so demon seekers should have no problems with chi gaining meaning they can use skills such as ion spike or even edge blur more repeteadly. Longer blade affinity means you can cast moar skills than sage seekers at supersonic speed. Demon unfetter's purify can be very handy to purge off a nasty debuff such as other seeker's sacrifial slash or when you get HF'd in tw/nw and your quid pro quo is in cooldown b:surrender
    Demon quid pro quo also offers 1 second freeze which may not sound that great but this can help you close the gap between you and your enemies when they are running away from you and you have both heartseeker + voidstep in cooldown



    Cons : no certain anti stun. demon unfetter offers purify which can be handy in pvp but in some cases the lack of anti stun makes it harder in open pvp to make a quick getaway or to do ironguard combo. demon adrenal numbess also offer less def lvl than sage adrenal numbness. which makes demon seekers a little wittwe bit less tanky than sage seekers


    i think demon seekers are more suited for 1v1 vs other classes while sage are more suited for open pk/mass pvp/tw. CMIIW and i hope this helps b:victory
    100% zhen-free since jan 2009 b:cool
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  • SylenThunder - Twilight TempleSylenThunder - Twilight Temple Supprot Guru Posts: 7,908
    edited June 2013
    to put it simply :


    Sage

    Pros : Sage seeker offer more damage, almost all lvl sage seeker skills has dmg amped on their adds (2000 on gemini, 1600 on heartseeker etc) meaning if you want to hit the biggest dmg a seeker can do, go sage. sage also has anti stun which cost 0 chi which can come in handy when you're surrounded and needed to make a quick getaway or to do ironguard combo. sage seekers also have sage blade affinity to avoid debuffs and longer quid pro quo seal duration (as long as bm's smack but with shorter cooldown)


    Cons : No chi gaining skill except master li's technique. Unlike demon, sage seekers have to be abit careful with spending their chi vs their opponents. sage seeker also have abit less accuracy than demon seekers which can be abit harder to fight vs archers/sins who has good mag res.

    Demon

    Pros : Demon seekers have longer debuff/more chance of applying stance than sage seekers. also both the chi gaining skill (RSC and battousai) are pretty much spammable so demon seekers should have no problems with chi gaining meaning they can use skills such as ion spike or even edge blur more repeteadly. Longer blade affinity means you can cast moar skills than sage seekers at supersonic speed \o/ Demon unfetter can be very handy in some situations such as when you're fighting other seekers who know how to time qpq (he'll qpq your debuffs back at you) or when you made a mistake and cast qpq too early and the seeker you're fighting cast sacrifial slash and transferred the debuff on you, as a sage you cant do anything to purge that off aside from spark b:surrender

    Cons : no certain anti stun. demon unfetter offers purify which can be handy in pvp but in some cases the lack of anti stun makes it harder in open pvp to make a quick getaway or to do ironguard combo. demon adrenal numbess also offer less def lvl than sage adrenal numbness. which makes demon seekers a little wittwe bit less tanky than sage seekers


    i think demon seekers are more suited for 1v1 vs other classes while sage are more suited for open pk/mass pvp/tw. CMIIW and i hope this helps b:victory
    Speaking as a Sage seeker....

    Chi isn't an issue. As with any class, Chi management is a skill, not a problem. I gain Chi easier on my Sage Seeker than on my Sage veno or Demon Cleric.

    The difference in accuracy is negligible and not even worth mentioning. Demon adrenal gives a 10% boost to accuracy for 5 minutes. In the overall scheme of things, a 10% boost in accuracy is not going to make a large enough difference to be worthwhile. Just put on a Misty and there you go. =)

    I do completely agree with your final comment though, Demon is geared more towards 1vs1 PvP, while Sage is geared towards large groups of mobs in PvE and group PvP as a result of that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ZenTzu_AP - ArchosaurZenTzu_AP - Archosaur Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    im sekeer DEMON lol :D
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