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What Are Veno's Major Weaknesses in PvE?

rgogrgog Posts: 0 Arc User
edited April 2011 in Venomancer
I will start it off by saying we don't have any good buffs for fighting, of course Summer Sprint is nice but it is for running, not fighting. I wish we had some other buffs even if they were minor. I would love to see a version of bramble that worked on pets even if it was just a token amount (return 1/10th damage or something).

I would love to see some self resurrection buff with a small exp save or some good buffs against certain mobs but I am starting to babble....
Post edited by rgog on
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  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'd have to say low damage (compared to other caster classes in human, compared to other melee classes in foxform.) This is actually a saving grace, as it somewhat delays the point where the pet can't hold aggro from you.

    There is a way to bramble pets... it's just incredibly rare and expensive to obtain for anything but a herc, the Reflect skill.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
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  • Vitenka - DreamweaverVitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Main weakness in PVE? Overconfidence.

    Oh, I'm SURE I can add just one more little mob to this AOE ball, it won't be a problem, just one more mob... just one more...

    We do kill slowly in comparison to other classes - everyone else does WAY better spikes than us. Which means if things go run we have to either run or die - where another class will probably take at most one hit whilst nuking the mob to death.

    But when we avoid the mistakes, we kill continually, forever, taking no damage we don't self inflict.

    And that's without getting into all the options for being an HA veno and then you really can use bramble...

    Anyway. Relative to other classes, we are squishier than barbs and BMs, kill individual mobs more slowly than just about anyone and AOE-kill slightly slower than BMs, have less range than archers and heal worse than clerics (but better than anyone else, if you count healing the pet, who is after all, the only one normally being hit.)
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    If you're killing noticeably slower than other caster classes; it's likely you're doing something wrong.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • BloodyQueen - DreamweaverBloodyQueen - Dreamweaver Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I will agree with tweakz on this. Yes, venos aren't the best DDs but it doesn't take us eternity to kill a mob. I don't have perfect gear and yet i am very proud of what i achieved. My damage doesn't go below 20k, normal crits without any debuffs are 45-55k+, crits with some debuffs and sage spark 150-160k, best crit on a [?] boss (was in nirv) was 67k. When i am doing bhs i noticed that even now i keep stealing aggro from bms and barbs but it could just be that they fail. xD

    My point is that we don't do very low damage we have our pluses and minuses and so do all classes.
  • Vitenka - DreamweaverVitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Oh, it aint eternity. But we take 2-4 spells to kill something that takes a real caster 1-2 spells to kill, and don't get me started on what a fishboy can do... (I mean, sure, technically they hit it more times than I need to - but they can do that it in the time it takes my keypress to reach the server)

    Anyway - I'm not saying we do no damage at all. But you have to admit that our spikes are far smaller than certain other aggro stealing classes that shall remain unnamed, and that is one of the classes downsides.

    I guess another downside I didn't mention is our relative squishiness; but that's only a relative thing, we're far less squishy than mages and even most clerics, whilst being more squishy than Barbs and BMs. So we're kind in the middle there.

    But mainly the only thing that harms me is my overconfidence. "Oh, let's go kill that, it's probably a mini-boss...." is a risky attitude.
  • BloodyQueen - DreamweaverBloodyQueen - Dreamweaver Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Yes, it is normal for aps classes to out-damage us they do the same with every other caster class.
    Squishyness is something we all have to deal with. We are squishy so are wizzies, psys, clerics, even some sins but some high refines to boost up ur hp and a couple of garnets and ur set to go but u will still die at bosses due to the lack of def unless u go ha.

    I agree about the overconfidence tho we have pets and sometimes think we are invincible but even herc turns to chicken and goes kapui on some bosses. ^^"
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Oh, it aint eternity. But we take 2-4 spells to kill something that takes a real caster 1-2 spells to kill, and don't get me started on what a fishboy can do... (I mean, sure, technically they hit it more times than I need to - but they can do that it in the time it takes my keypress to reach the server)

    Can you show what spells a wiz is going to use to accomplish this amazing feet?

    I don't see such a glaring difference:

    Sage Pyrogram
    Using the force of the Raging Flame, cast out onto the enemy a blazing
    pyrogram. Inflicts Fire damage equal to 100% of weapon
    damage plus base magic damage plus 3620.0. Has a chance to regain Chi.

    Sage Venomous
    Throw a virulent parasite at the enemy. Deals Wood damage equal
    to base magic damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus
    2534.0. Has a chance to gain 30 Chi if hit.

    ~1k difference isn't likely to make a difference of 2-4 hits. Wiz for AoE is pretty ridiculous also. Most wiz AoE take 2 sparks, while wiz sucks at generating them by comparison. DB takes 1 spark and doesn't even include a weapon multiplier. We also get a pet / pet skills to throw in the mix to more than throw off that ~1k difference.

    Anyway - I'm not saying we do no damage at all. But you have to admit that our spikes are far smaller than certain other aggro stealing classes that shall remain unnamed, and that is one of the classes downsides.

    I don't admit when it comes to wiz. I don't see it in the numbers or in actual playing.
    I guess another downside I didn't mention is our relative squishiness; but that's only a relative thing, we're far less squishy than mages and even most clerics, whilst being more squishy than Barbs and BMs. So we're kind in the middle there.

    Wiz and other mages can have a pdef booster on constantly. We need fox form for ours but we also come with a meat shield. -It's not a simple comparison.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • MisTiVixon - HarshlandsMisTiVixon - Harshlands Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Venos do have ups and downs squishy and slighly weaker magic but its ok we gets pets herc/nix
    lv 83 tt70 armor tt80 wep misc. phy orns herc = TT3-1 all day
    and i do agree overconfidence is big problem and lving can get slow in the 80................
    i have hard time finding fcs or gvs
  • Ermosa - Heavens TearErmosa - Heavens Tear Posts: 292 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    What Are Veno's Major Weaknesses in PvE?
    no1 needs us in squads lol
  • Sarrafeline - SanctuarySarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Major weakness in PVE would be ranged physical mobs, quite easily, in large groups.

    You have to become pro at pulling with a pet to be successful at those. Especially when they have a large aggro range.

    If you get two on you, and one can 3 shot you, and it takes your pet 2 shots to get aggro off you, you're done.

    Other than that, weakness is focusing on DDing instead of debuffing, amping, and keeping your mana up. Doing Ape in TT2-2, it takes twice as long if I'm in a squad on my Archer compared to my equal level Veno. Veno has lvl 10 amp, lvl 10 purge. I use Malefic crush, Crush Vigor, Amp, Purge, Myriad Rainbow on Ape, and suddenly, the BM or Sin is doing twice as much DPS as they would have if the buffs were left on the boss, or the debuffs/amp weren't applied.

    Plus, my pet is set to use pierce, which further debuffs ape.

    Instead.. There are venos that stand there and Venemous Scarab over and over. Your 4k DPS isn't making up for the missing Amp, purge, crush vigor, or malefic crush that could boost the entire squads DPS by a vast amount greater than 4k dps.

    Veno isn't a DPS class. It's a support class. Even on a boss like Soulbanisher, you can amp and improve the entire squad's effectiveness, even if you aren't doing direct damage yourself. It's like adding another 5.0 if the squad already has 2, or adding a 2.22 aps if your squad has a 5.0. A Veno DDing can't dream of getting that kind of DPS.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Cocobelle - SanctuaryCocobelle - Sanctuary Posts: 960 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Veno isn't a DPS class. It's a support class. Even on a boss like Soulbanisher, you can amp and improve the entire squad's effectiveness, even if you aren't doing direct damage yourself. It's like adding another 5.0 if the squad already has 2, or adding a 2.22 aps if your squad has a 5.0. A Veno DDing can't dream of getting that kind of DPS.

    I beg to differ. Veno is such a versatile class that can go for support and damage dealing at the same time. Yes, it is a problem that some venos just spam Venomous Scarab over and over again without debuffing and our magic attacks are not as strong compared to other casters.

    But if you combine those two, debuffs + damage dealing, it actually makes up for the weaker casting damage.

    Sometimes when I let my herc tank, I don't even debuff the boss unless I have to purge. I mean, I'm doing the tanking so it doesn't matter if it takes a little longer than usual. That 4k damage from Venomous Scarab and Ironwood Scarab adds up in the longer run.

    If you look into perspective, sometimes spamming magic skills is better than debuffing for yourself, at least. I wouldn't dare run into a boss that can kill me in 1-hit through AOE just to debuff. Ironwood Scarab is a debuff on its own so if the squad can't take it, too bad for them.

    Just my two cents. All casting classes' DPS can't be compared to a 5aps BM or sin or any melee dps, ijs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sarrafeline - SanctuarySarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I beg to differ. Veno is such a versatile class that can go for support and damage dealing at the same time. Yes, it is a problem that some venos just spam Venomous Scarab over and over again without debuffing and our magic attacks are not as strong compared to other casters.

    But if you combine those two, debuffs + damage dealing, it actually makes up for the weaker casting damage.

    Sometimes when I let my herc tank, I don't even debuff the boss unless I have to purge. I mean, I'm doing the tanking so it doesn't matter if it takes a little longer than usual. That 4k damage from Venomous Scarab and Ironwood Scarab adds up in the longer run.

    If you look into perspective, sometimes spamming magic skills is better than debuffing for yourself, at least. I wouldn't dare run into a boss that can kill me in 1-hit through AOE just to debuff. Ironwood Scarab is a debuff on its own so if the squad can't take it, too bad for them.

    Just my two cents. All casting classes' DPS can't be compared to a 5aps BM or sin or any melee dps, ijs.

    I agree to a point...

    But, going from human form to fox form with full mana, and Fox Form 3 nukes 25% of your mana.

    I was POUNDING DOWN mana food doing the Fox Form, amp, purge, Myriad, switch to human, Ironwood, Venemous, Venemous, Venemous, repeat until Amp timer resets, go to fox form, amp, myriad, purge, switch back...

    i was using 5-10 mana foods per boss in FCC. The cost was staggering. Leaving Myriad out, since it requires 800 mana, I was still using a stupid amount of mana. And charms? Pfffff. I was going through a Plat a week, if not every 4 days, just doing FCC. =\

    personally, I like to toss a Myriad if the main DD demon sparks or sage sparks. It can be just like an HF for them, and for a 5.0, makes the boss die very very fast.

    Amp has long enough duration that you just toss it up, when it expires, count to 10, reapply.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • skysingskysing Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    The only weakness...cannot purifty pet. Some bosses you wont be able to solo. But overall, they are great.
  • Vitenka - DreamweaverVitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    But, going from human form to fox form with full mana, and Fox Form 3 nukes 25% of your mana.

    Yes. Foxform reduces your MAX mana. (To 80%) - if you are using foxform then there is no point having more than 80% of your human mana, it'll just be lost.

    I like to throw myriad before I transform, at 800 mana that's most of the 20%, and I'm going to lose it anyway.

    (The sequence I use is myriad, fox, sage-soul-degenration, amplify-damage, defox, ironwood)

    So, in short - you're doing something wrong. Once you've foxes once, subsequent foxforms only cost the 300 mana to go fox and back (less with lower level foxforms)

    Now - saying that. If you're pounding out the skills, then yeah, even a venomancer can need to drink a mana pot from time to time. (If you have a blue bubble available then you don't.)

    But if you're trying to get back to full mana after each fox - then that's not the best way to do things. Try it. Go fox and back - bam, 20% mana eaten. Do it again and almost no change.

    Also, of course, you CAN stay in foxform continuously. You lose access to ironwood, which is a biggie (though not if someone is using devour) - losing access to lending hand mihgt be unfriendly, however.
  • SeaStorm - Heavens TearSeaStorm - Heavens Tear Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    TBH....if you're going to talk about weaknesses then might as well make separate threads for the various veno builds....as the type of "weakness" will depend on build.

    As for the mana loss mentioned above...whatever, it's all part of the cost being a veno...just like:
    a) archers having to buy or make arrows (most I know carry well over 50k in arrows)
    b) tanks eatting the heavy/high end repair bills
    c) clerics eatting through mp charms like candy
    etc....

    Most of the weaknesses I see in venos now are not many know how to play the veno like the "old" schoolers....before genies and TB came out. It's pretty sad when I can startle a cleric cause I gave them a spark immediately after BB went up. I can list a lot more but it's just depressing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Cocobelle - SanctuaryCocobelle - Sanctuary Posts: 960 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I agree to a point...

    But, going from human form to fox form with full mana, and Fox Form 3 nukes 25% of your mana.

    I was POUNDING DOWN mana food doing the Fox Form, amp, purge, Myriad, switch to human, Ironwood, Venemous, Venemous, Venemous, repeat until Amp timer resets, go to fox form, amp, myriad, purge, switch back...

    i was using 5-10 mana foods per boss in FCC. The cost was staggering. Leaving Myriad out, since it requires 800 mana, I was still using a stupid amount of mana. And charms? Pfffff. I was going through a Plat a week, if not every 4 days, just doing FCC. =\

    personally, I like to toss a Myriad if the main DD demon sparks or sage sparks. It can be just like an HF for them, and for a 5.0, makes the boss die very very fast.

    Amp has long enough duration that you just toss it up, when it expires, count to 10, reapply.

    Mana consumption for Venos is nothing compared to a mystic or cleric's. If you're complaining about mana consumption for venos, try playing a cleric or mystic. I'm sorry but we don't consume as much mana as the other classes.

    My cleric can consume a plat charm in just 2-3 days of doing BH, FCC or what not. Sorry but if you want to be as effective as you can be, you gotta pay the price which is the heavy mana consumption.

    Personally, since I'm one of those "channeling venos", I attack twice the speed of a regular veno with no channeling equips and I still use way more mana on my mystic.

    It's not that hard to time your skills right with Soul Transfusion and Nature's Grace. I know it's easier said than done but it's viable opposed to using MP food.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Xoria - SanctuaryXoria - Sanctuary Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I would say a venomancer's true weakness is their player's inability to unlock their full potential. This includes, but is not limited to, relying on pets for DD (watch the venos flee in terror once you kill their nix in PK), mindlessly spamming attacks instead of debuffing, etc, etc.

    FYI: I eat a Platinum Spirit Charm in less than 3 hours. Saying a venomancer eats a ton of MP is laughable. It's a widely known fact that of all the magic classes, venos require the least amount of MP; as well as the only class to successfully use AA, LA and HA.
    [In a distorted place and time][The knife that stabbed me in the back grants me wings]
    [I keep looking to the sky][In order to flee from the memories]
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    [The world that expands inside of your arms is][///the last secret garden///]
    [If you've already forgotten me, don't forget...]
    [The things that we once embraced]
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Mana consumption for Venos is nothing compared to a mystic or cleric's.

    Myriads take 800 ea w/ 0 ch/cast. If I don't use BB on cleric, I rarely run into MP issues. My cleric is 100 vit, my veno is pure mag. I don't see much difference.
    Personally, since I'm one of those "channeling venos", I attack twice the speed of a regular veno with no channeling equips and I still use way more mana on my mystic.

    You have to have a buttload of channeling to get 2x since -ch doesn't affect cast time, which is pretty close to channeling time as is. You have ~-90%ch?
    I would say a venomancer's true weakness is their player's inability to unlock their full potential. This includes, but is not limited to, relying on pets for DD (watch the venos flee in terror once you kill their nix in PK), mindlessly spamming attacks instead of debuffing, etc, etc.

    When's the last time you pk'd? We're killing in 2-4 hits: hardly worth debuffing most of the time. -lmao!
    FYI: I eat a Platinum Spirit Charm in less than 3 hours.

    I could on a veno as well. -means nothing. Ever down to <1k HP and Soul Transfuse?
    I beg to differ. Veno is such a versatile class that can go for support and damage dealing at the same time. Yes, it is a problem that some venos just spam Venomous Scarab over and over again without debuffing and our magic attacks are not as strong compared to other casters.

    Oh? =o What on a Wiz compares to Noxious for unsparked aoe? You can't really compare Nova since demon has an AoE amp. We can also triple spark and pound out noxious / Nova/ noxious faster than 2 of their AoEs. We also get 900% for sage spark while wiz only gets 700%. Please show us where there's a significant difference and you'll probably see a big difference in ch/cast time or effects.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Xoria - SanctuaryXoria - Sanctuary Posts: 419 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    tweakz wrote: »
    When's the last time you pk'd? We're killing in 2-4 hits: hardly worth debuffing most of the time. -lmao!
    ---
    I could on a veno as well. -means nothing. Ever down to <1k HP and Soul Transfuse?

    PK'd recently enough to stand by my comment. Generally, you kill the veno's pet, they turn tail. A veno can't 2-4 hit me, even with only +2 armor and completely ungemmed. Plus, you assume I meant PK when I left it open to interpretation. A veno that debuff is more valuable in TW than one that spams attacks. The same can be true for a veno that PKs in a group. Do not be so single- minded.
    ---
    Nope, can't say I've ever gone down to 1K hp and then ST. Never let a monster aggro me that would hurt me that badly. If I was charmed, I didn't mindlessly spam attacks until it would tick my charm. Then again.... don't know many venos that use MP charms as it is.
    [In a distorted place and time][The knife that stabbed me in the back grants me wings]
    [I keep looking to the sky][In order to flee from the memories]
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    [The world that expands inside of your arms is][///the last secret garden///]
    [If you've already forgotten me, don't forget...]
    [The things that we once embraced]
  • SeaStorm - Heavens TearSeaStorm - Heavens Tear Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    I would say a venomancer's true weakness is their player's inability to unlock their full potential. This includes, but is not limited to, relying on pets for DD (watch the venos flee in terror once you kill their nix in PK), mindlessly spamming attacks instead of debuffing, etc, etc.

    FYI: I eat a Platinum Spirit Charm in less than 3 hours. Saying a venomancer eats a ton of MP is laughable. It's a widely known fact that of all the magic classes, venos require the least amount of MP; as well as the only class to successfully use AA, LA and HA.

    Then apparently you're playing (pking) with the wrong venos....as far as I'm concerned the pet is there to aid not be the main source of damage. If it dies, whatever, just kill the other player then rez pet.

    I'm with Tweakz on the mana useage. Even using the 60% sage regen skills and soul transfusion, those can't keep up I've either gotta be charmed or use hp/mp pots. Considering I have a 99 cleric, I'd say I average the same mana useage on both chars.

    As far as the comment about inability to unlock their full potential...I'll just point up to my post about "old school" veno players.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    []PK'd recently enough to stand by my comment. Generally, you kill the veno's pet, they turn tail. A veno can't 2-4 hit me, even with only +2 armor and completely ungemmed.

    More like 1 shot.
    Plus, you assume I meant PK when I left it open to interpretation.
    (watch the venos flee in terror once you kill their nix in PK)

    A veno that debuff is more valuable in TW than one that spams attacks. The same can be true for a veno that PKs in a group. Do not be so single- minded.

    When's the last time you TW? Amp, purge, both require getting close making you an easy 2 hit target. 2-4 hit kill from a distance before they know what's hitting them = more effective. Only ones worth purging / amping are barbs or very high end players.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • rgogrgog Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    since -ch doesn't affect cast time

    So what does it effect if not cast time?
  • Tyramera - DreamweaverTyramera - Dreamweaver Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    rgog wrote: »
    So what does it effect if not cast time?

    Most spells have both a channel and a cast component. -channel gear only reduces the channel component of the spell.

    For example, if a spell has a 1 sec channel and a 1 second cast, and the veno has -50% channel, that only reduces the channel part to 0.5 seconds. So the spell takes 1.5 seconds instead of 2 seconds.

    That's why tweakz was saying one would need greater than -90% channel to get close to 2x faster spells than a non-channel geared veno. At that point the channel part would be less than 0.1 seconds and so the veno would be using spells almost twice as fast (in the above example).
  • LenieClarke - Heavens TearLenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    for clarity (and i really hope i'm not getting this all worng):

    channel time is the time during which the "channeling spell" progress bar is up on your game screen. -chan gear will make that progress bar move faster --- and that's basically ALL -chan gear will do. this is also the time during which you can still press escape to stop the spell from going off.

    cast time immediately follows the completion of channeling. it isn't marked by anything much on screen, unless your character doing some kind of "spellcasting" animation counts.

    damage is dealt to the mob, i think, sometime during casting time. it's tricky for me to tell because the damage-dealt-to-mob animation, the damage popping up in the damage log, the damage being shown above the mob's head, and the mob shifting aggro in response to being damaged, are by no means simultaneous events. i often have trouble telling which of them occurred first, and in what order respective to my casting time lapse. (except that the graphic effects of the spell "hitting" the mob are very often dead last of these, and seldom if ever relate to anything in the actual game mechanics. they're just for show.)

    cooldown starts sweeping its clock-hand across the skill icon immediately after casting finishes, i believe. the skill is not available for re-use between casting starting and cooldown ending; you can re-use the skill immediately after canceling channeling, though. caveat: cancel-casting glitches may complicate those last two sentences --- i'm not too sure, since cancel-cast glitches are among the game mechanics i haven't personally investigated at all yet.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.
  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    cooldown starts sweeping its clock-hand across the skill icon immediately after casting finishes, i believe.

    Pretty sure cast and cooldown run simultaneously.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Weekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic
    thejapanesepage.com/ebooks/yuki_no_monogatari_manga
  • rgogrgog Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    So is -chan very valuable? I mean in small amounts? I have one piece of -6 gear now, if I get a couple more -3 to -6 will it make much of a difference? Is it worth sacrificing some resists for -chan?
  • LenieClarke - Heavens TearLenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Pretty sure cast and cooldown run simultaneously.

    really? it's possible, of course, but that would make me wonder what the point of having both cast and cooldown times would be, honestly.

    edit: small amounts of -chan (less than 10%) is all i've ever had, and i can't say i've noticed any difference with that little. i'd not pay extra for it unless i got a lot more than that, or was collecting it.

    some people do obsessively collect -chan, though, and they're the reason a level-30 magic ring can go for 5-6 million coin. at those prices, the total amount you'd have to pay for any noticeable amount of -chan is... in my private opinion, ridiculous.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    Overpriced at lower levels. For end gear it's highly valuable but so is mag/matk. Also depends on what you want to be able to accomplish.
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  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    The cooldown starts immediately after the channel and at the start of the cast. That's why skills like Venomous Scarab and IH are so spamable- the cooldown matches the cast time. So as soon as you're done casting, the skill has cooled down and you can start channeling again.

    With channel gear, I find it most useful when taming rares and spam healing your tank when you're solo'ing things you shouldn't be solo'ing. If you can 1-shot heal your pet's full hp, the real gain is in slipping in an extra heal between hits.

    It's situational tho. What you gain in channeling you tend to lose in magic attack/crit/defense/+stat/etc.


    As for mp, using an mp charm is actually more costly than not since it'll tick every time you get down to 75%. For any class, there's HY which should heal for around half of the deepest mana pools within 10 seconds for much cheaper than the two ticks of an mp charm.

    When comparing mana consumption between characters, it depends on how you play:

    Mystics- I heard someone say they just send in their pet and let it attack. Somewhat ineffective, but low mana cost.

    Clerics- Sometimes they have the option of staying out of battle mode (for example if an IH stack is all that is needed). They can keep the normal regen rates which helpful. Some significantly higher mp costs per skill, but tends to not channel/cast as fast as venos so slightly less spammage. (IH being the exception.)

    Venos- If you go all out, you can burn through mp quickly. Myriads take 800 mp each and no time to cast. Add in the channel heavy gear and you're burning through mp like nothing else. But not everything needs a myriad and most of the other skills are cheap. MP regen skills drastically reduce mp cost as well. If you have a cleric around, you can have infinite mp.


    For PK, yes there are a lot of noob venos who will flee when their pet is killed. I'd say it's just not knowing their class.

    ...Just like many sins who think that stealth and stun guarantees victory every time and then get facerolled by a wiz who has an AD button.
    ...Just like someone fresh on the APS bandwagon who thinks APS will always win even if they don't know how to stun lock.

    Noobism isn't class specific, so I wouldn't call it a veno's weakness. Although venos are far from immune from it.


    The biggest weakness I've noticed in PvE is the lack of a pet purify. The EG feature of summoning without stowing has helped this a bit (as long as you have a duplicate of whatever your tank is). But it's still as much of a pain and as risky as ever. Although it can make the difference of what is soloable and what isn't.

    The ranged physical mobs are the other big challenge if your own p.def isn't very high. I found that using a ranged pet and juggling aggro/heals/damage immunity and reduction to be the trick before I got my gear up to snuff.
  • Cocobelle - SanctuaryCocobelle - Sanctuary Posts: 960 Arc User
    edited April 2011
    tweakz wrote: »
    Myriads take 800 ea w/ 0 ch/cast. If I don't use BB on cleric, I rarely run into MP issues. My cleric is 100 vit, my veno is pure mag. I don't see much difference.

    DDing is worse than using BB on a cleric. 1 maxed Wield Thunder costs around 480MP by itself.
    tweakz wrote: »
    You have to have a buttload of channeling to get 2x since -ch doesn't affect cast time, which is pretty close to channeling time as is. You have ~-90%ch?

    I admit my mistake on that part but nonetheless, it's faster than a lot of venos.
    tweakz wrote: »
    Oh? =o What on a Wiz compares to Noxious for unsparked aoe? You can't really compare Nova since demon has an AoE amp. We can also triple spark and pound out noxious / Nova/ noxious faster than 2 of their AoEs. We also get 900% for sage spark while wiz only gets 700%. Please show us where there's a significant difference and you'll probably see a big difference in ch/cast time or effects.

    Regardless of skills and combining them together, venos are still considerably weaker compared to wizards/psychics.
    Venos- If you go all out, you can burn through mp quickly.

    That's the same with every class. The only difference is that we have skills that help us regain mana. As you said, it really depends on your playing style.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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