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Veno aoe DD?

shaneekashaneeka Posts: 1 Arc User
edited March 2011 in Venomancer
As the title says is veno an AoE dd?I tried on my veno alt to find sqds and when i tell the leader my class, some people said veno isn't AoE dd,but we have parasic and noxious gas ,that are AoE skills,now am really confused about it,is veno an AOe DD or not? b:sadb:cryI'm new to veno class because I've never played chars with pets only, melee.
Post edited by shaneeka on

Comments

  • SeaStorm - Heavens TearSeaStorm - Heavens Tear Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Personally when I hear AOE DD I think of chars that have multiple AOEs that and be macro'd together (like the BM), or continual AOEs like dragon breath (Wiz) or barrage (archer). While venos do have AOEs (noxious, p. nova, and fox myriad rainbow) they simply aren't available like the BM multiple skill aoes.

    So I really wouldn't count a veno as an AOE DD.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Edyn - DreamweaverEdyn - Dreamweaver Posts: 317 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Proud to say we are AOE DD since we do have AOE Skills b:laugh
    If you ask me we are even good at it lol, from the moment a veno casts Para Nova you'll most likely get some agro, if not all. Even with Noxious Gass. AT lower lvl's the AOE is bit to dangerous since you prob wont have good armor yet, but later on the AOEing is fun!
    When your bit bigger you'll get more possible combinations off AOE Skills to: f.e. lvl 79 skill Myriad Rainbow (foxform one) is also an AOE Debuff that works great in squad. + Teach your genie Bramble Rage f.e. to. I tend to aoe debuff mobs, when in squad, then after a bm stunns them i'll para nova after him/her and then noxious, or other way around.
    Anyway, dont worry lol b:cute
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ty Silvychar b:thanks
  • Edyn - DreamweaverEdyn - Dreamweaver Posts: 317 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Personally when I hear AOE DD I think of chars that have multiple AOEs that and be macro'd together (like the BM), or continual AOEs like dragon breath (Wiz) or barrage (archer). While venos do have AOEs (noxious, p. nova, and fox myriad rainbow) they simply aren't available like the BM multiple skill aoes.

    So I really wouldn't count a veno as an AOE DD.

    They work differently yeah but still AOE is AOE and if it wouldnt be good then veno's wouldnt be able to go solo ont he AOE road.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ty Silvychar b:thanks
  • LenieClarke - Heavens TearLenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    i'd say we're AoE DD's the same way we're single-target DD's, that is, kinda-sorta. we can do it, but we don't excel at it; just as we can't take aggro off of a dedicated DD class in single-target fighting, we can't hold up against a BM's or even a wizard's serious AoE DD game either --- but we can still do it, and contribute usefully that way.

    we're a jack-of-all-trades class, but that also means "master of none". we can do support, DD, tanking, a little of everything except healing --- but the only things we're really great at are the things no other class can really do, like debuffing. for everything else, if we want to excel we have to learn to spot opportunities and jump in when nobody else is in position to.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    You left out:

    Malefic Crush
    Myriad (Fox)
    Befuddling Mist
    Purge (sage)

    I prefer AoE dd on veno to wiz.
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  • ShaoliXen - Lost CityShaoliXen - Lost City Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    A veno has AoE cabablilites but I wouldn't classify it as a AoE class personally.

    To me an AoE DD would be a class that can cast AoEs with an almost consistant frequency, the three classes in my eyes that can do this would be an Axe BM, Psychic, and a Wizard (the chi needed for some AoE's make's this debateable in terms of an almost consistant AoE DD, but in single hit AoE damage they obviously take the top spot.)

    I belive LenieClarke said it best when she said that "we can do it, but we don't excel at it."
  • LShattered - Heavens TearLShattered - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,365 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    We can AoE, but up against the master(bm) we kinda fail. Although hf+para is probably the combo i like at the moment. I get aggro, but the seal/paralyze helps to keep those nasty monsters away from you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • SeaStorm - Heavens TearSeaStorm - Heavens Tear Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    They work differently yeah but still AOE is AOE and if it wouldnt be good then veno's wouldnt be able to go solo ont he AOE road.

    Point is we can't chain them together and use back to back to back. As was pointed out we can't use them but not as effectly as the Wiz, BM, Psy etc. Venos can't go out and AOE grind, like BMs etc. Back in the "old" days of zhen partys at fish and spiders you'd be hard pressed to find a veno in squad. You'd have a cleric, archer and Wiz set up their continuous AOEs (BB, Barrage, Dragon's Breath) then have the BMs/Barbs etc pulling the mobs in. On rare occasions would you find a veno pulling mobs.

    Yes we have them, but you can't spam them like other classes.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Point is we can't chain them together and use back to back to back. As was pointed out we can't use them but not as effectly as the Wiz, BM, Psy etc.

    With 1 to 2 or even 3 hit kills: it matters more who can generate the chi faster.
    Venos can't go out and AOE grind, like BMs etc.

    I have yet to see a BM as effective as my veno AoE grinding. Remember also that most are gimping their patk to wear claws. Maybe they're just too preoccupied with Nirvana?
    Back in the "old" days of zhen partys at fish and spiders you'd be hard pressed to find a veno in squad. You'd have a cleric, archer and Wiz set up their continuous AOEs (BB, Barrage, Dragon's Breath) then have the BMs/Barbs etc pulling the mobs in. On rare occasions would you find a veno pulling mobs.

    Times change. Last time I did AoE grinding in a squad, the cleric lured, the BM stunned/ HF'd etc. The BM constantly wanted chi. Both were very strong players, but I was far better off soloing using a pet to lure, and using the chi for Nova instead. The mobs just inside VoS can all be rounded up by a Herc and 1 shot AoE'd (Celestial Spark + Nova or Noxious), or 2 shot (Nova, Noxious) with out veno taking any dmg. I think even 3 shot w/o dmg is doable (Noxious, Nova, Noxious). Veno can also generate chi while rounding up the mobs.
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  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    shaneeka wrote: »
    As the title says is veno an AoE dd?I tried on my veno alt to find sqds and when i tell the leader my class, some people said veno isn't AoE dd,but we have parasic and noxious gas ,that are AoE skills,now am really confused about it,is veno an AOe DD or not? b:sadb:cryI'm new to veno class because I've never played chars with pets only, melee.

    Since you were denied from a squad, I'd be interested to know what the squad was planning on running. The squad leader may not have been saying that venos are not AOE DDs, but that they aren't for the instance you are running. A few examples:

    FF: Venos are wanted for Lending Hand, Amplify Damage, Bramble, and depending on the pet, tank for some/most bosses. You're still expected to AOE DD on the pulls, but it's not what gets the veno into the squad.

    RB: Venos are usually wanted for running the Happy Valley quests, Brambling the barb/BM, keeping bosses away from the zen point until the squad is ready, Bonus Beans, and then lastly for AOE DD. Again, AOE is expected, but it's not what gets the veno into the squad.

    Zen parties: As mentioned earlier, these are typically a couple of zenners (archer or wiz, constant aoe), lure (normally a barb or bm, sometimes anyone with a mount), cleric, and tank (barb/bm, someone to try to keep aggro off the zenner). Venos can get in to zen squads, but traditionally they didn't want to be as it's generally easier for a veno to solo their mobs. Plus, the necessity of doing 50%+ damage on the mob to get credit for your pet makes venos slightly more antisocial than other classes when it comes to grinding.

    Venos make excellent AOE DDs, but the lack of a constant AOE, many AOEs that can be chained together, and the ease at which a veno can fit into other roles makes the general population classify venos as something other than "AOE DD".
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    FF: Venos are wanted for Lending Hand, Amplify Damage, Bramble, and depending on the pet, tank for some/most bosses. You're still expected to AOE DD on the pulls, but it's not what gets the veno into the squad.

    Things change. Lending hand is wasted in FF at higher levels, bramble becomes less significant, and the person who gets aggro can tank. Veno also becomes one of the best AoE DD's for pulls since they can get there fast w/o genie skill and single handedly DD most groups of mobs.
    RB: Venos are usually wanted for running the Happy Valley quests, Brambling the barb/BM, keeping bosses away from the zen point until the squad is ready, Bonus Beans, and then lastly for AOE DD. Again, AOE is expected, but it's not what gets the veno into the squad.

    Only because there are so many fail venos because fail players are told to roll a veno, or players that just want free pets and to frolic around looking cute while others do the work for them choose the class. I think most venos don't even know they have more than 2 AoEs.
    Zen parties: As mentioned earlier, these are typically a couple of zenners (archer or wiz, constant aoe), lure (normally a barb or bm, sometimes anyone with a mount), cleric, and tank (barb/bm, someone to try to keep aggro off the zenner). Venos can get in to zen squads, but traditionally they didn't want to be as it's generally easier for a veno to solo their mobs. Plus, the necessity of doing 50%+ damage on the mob to get credit for your pet makes venos slightly more antisocial than other classes when it comes to grinding.

    In addition, when you can get 50% + in one shot: you may as well solo.

    Venos make excellent AOE DDs, but the lack of a constant AOE, many AOEs that can be chained together,

    Chain of many AoEs: Noxious->Nova->Noxious->Myriad->Befuddling Mist->Malefic Crush->Befuddling Mist->Noxious. (mostly practical in RB)
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  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    tweakz wrote: »
    Things change. Lending hand is wasted in FF at higher levels, bramble becomes less significant, and the person who gets aggro can tank. Veno also becomes one of the best AoE DD's for pulls since they can get there fast w/o genie skill and single handedly DD most groups of mobs.

    Getting there fast? Lol. Who doesn't use Holy Path at end game? You have to wait for your puller to come back to the door anyway in which case a sin would be faster because they'll stealth ahead.

    Venos aren't sought out for high level FF's anyway. Good players, yes. Venos in particular, no.
    tweakz wrote: »
    Only because there are so many fail venos because fail players are told to roll a veno, or players that just want free pets and to frolic around looking cute while others do the work for them choose the class. I think most venos don't even know they have more than 2 AoEs.

    Yes, there are fox form AOEs, but their usefulness is debatable.
    tweakz wrote: »
    Chain of many AoEs: Noxious->Nova->Noxious->Myriad->Befuddling Mist->Malefic Crush->Befuddling Mist->Noxious. (mostly practical in RB)

    I have yet to see anyone besides yourself who actually finds it worth while to drop into fox for Malefic Crush and even you've said that Befuddling as an AOE is only good as a filler when you're waiting to jump up from fox.

    In RB, I find it more worthwhile to wait in fox until the pull comes to the zen point, myriad -> nox -> nova -> nox, then nox/nova on every cooldown while single targetting the problematic mobs (stunners, flyers, archers, etc).

    Also, if your chain is "mostly practical in RB", where is it otherwise practical? You've already said you can 1- to 2-shot the mobs where you grind, so really, why do you need more AOEs?

    It seems you missed the point of what I said: Venos can be great AOE DD, but, this isn't what they are known for. Since they aren't known for it, they aren't lumped into the AOE DD category with Archers, Wizards, and Psychics.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Getting there fast? Lol. Who doesn't use Holy Path at end game?

    There can be better uses for genie like Tangling Mire, Extreme Poison, Expel, Cloud Eruption, Chi Siphon, etc.
    You have to wait for your puller to come back to the door anyway in which case a sin would be faster because they'll stealth ahead.

    Depends on lure. Many lures are going straight to bosses now.
    Yes, there are fox form AOEs, but their usefulness is debatable.

    In which case anything is debatable. Under the right conditions which can happen often: a Malefic Crush can do more damage than Noxious under less favorable circumstances; especially when it's typically following Fox Myriad. If you have access to Valley of the Scarred as a pure mag, just try it on Icewind Grunts with a +10 or better rank 8 weapon and compare results to Noxious. Some may consider to go HA or LA if they see the potential even as AA.
    I have yet to see anyone besides yourself who actually finds it worth while to drop into fox for Malefic Crush and even you've said that Befuddling as an AOE is only good as a filler when you're waiting to jump up from fox.

    Forget Myriad Fox? Befuddling is AoE and I have asked people to come up with something better to use to fill it's spot. -No replies so far. Would you argue that nothing should be used? There are 3 AoE's to use in Fox form making it well worth it.
    In RB, I find it more worthwhile to wait in fox until the pull comes to the zen point, myriad -> nox -> nova -> nox, then nox/nova on every cooldown while single targetting the problematic mobs (stunners, flyers, archers, etc).

    I've opened with Myriad before and didn't see a problem with it, but you're not using Malefic also?
    Also, if your chain is "mostly practical in RB", where is it otherwise practical? You've already said you can 1- to 2-shot the mobs where you grind, so really, why do you need more AOEs?

    Malefic is cheap, powerful, and can easily make a borderline RB successful. I don't think anyone is going to argue against Befuddling and Myriad either, though I don't find Befuddling particularly useful outside of RB. For 1-1 it provides less DPS than straight melee, and it reduces reflect dmg.
    It seems you missed the point of what I said: Venos can be great AOE DD, but, this isn't what they are known for. Since they aren't known for it, they aren't lumped into the AOE DD category with Archers, Wizards, and Psychics.

    They wont be generally known for it until they start realizing and practicing it. I do agree we can be great AoE DD. I don't know how we rate to Psychics, but I definitely favor my veno to my wiz. -Maybe because I can get the chi for Nova easier than I can for Mountain's Seize.
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  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    tweakz wrote: »
    There can be better uses for genie like Tangling Mire, Extreme Poison, Expel, Cloud Eruption, Chi Siphon, etc.

    And other classes have speed boosts and/or superior range as well. I've never seen an issue with someone keeping up in 90+ FF's and that includes slower classes such as clerics, psychics, and wizards.
    tweakz wrote: »
    In which case anything is debatable. Under the right conditions which can happen often: a Malefic Crush can do more damage than Noxious under less favorable circumstances; especially when it's typically following Fox Myriad. If you have access to Valley of the Scarred as a pure mag, just try it on Icewind Grunts with a +10 or better rank 8 weapon and compare results to Noxious. Some may consider to go HA or LA if they see the potential even as AA.

    You're comparing a 2 spark skill to a chi gaining skill? Of course crush has the potential to do more damage in a single cast, but at a significantly higher cost.

    The HA/LA case was why I said it was debatable, as opposed to almost worthless.

    In a pve situation, the mana drain is worthless. Damagewise, it's benefits are countered by the lack of good filler skills to use while in fox form. Myriad Rainbow is great, but it's an instant cast, so it doesn't do much in the way of filling. Befuddling mist does **** damage, the AOE range and the fact that it's directional make it a pretty pitiful AOE, and the debuff can cause more damage than good.

    Yes, I have tried it on Icewind Grunts and it does get the job done. But you don't need a long chain of AOEs for those mobs. The point was that if you are trying to optimize the damage you do over time, dropping down in to fox to use Malefic isn't worth it.
    tweakz wrote: »
    Forget Myriad Fox? Befuddling is AoE and I have asked people to come up with something better to use to fill it's spot. -No replies so far. Would you argue that nothing should be used? There are 3 AoE's to use in Fox form making it well worth it.

    No, I didn't forget myriad. In fact I mentioned it. But the combination of Malefic Crush/Myriad still generally doesn't out perform what you can get done in mage form- especially for pure mag.
    tweakz wrote: »
    I've opened with Myriad before and didn't see a problem with it, but you're not using Malefic also?

    I've used it some, but it depends on the squad and how the auras are set up. If there isn't a high enough chi aura, I skip it in favor of nova. Also, depending on the BM, I'll use myriad -> nova immediately. It takes some coordination, but I run with the same BM a lot and we've got our demon skills worked out into a nice pattern for RB. Malefic doesn't fit nicely.
    tweakz wrote: »
    Malefic is cheap, powerful, and can easily make a borderline RB successful. I don't think anyone is going to argue against Befuddling and Myriad either, though I don't find Befuddling particularly useful outside of RB. For 1-1 it provides less DPS than straight melee, and it reduces reflect dmg.

    I find 2 sparks very costly when you have to wait for cooldowns or use crappy skills.

    Myriad - instant cast; not a practical filler.
    Befuddling - crappy AOE.
    Other fox skills - not too stellar if you're pure mag.
    tweakz wrote: »
    They wont be generally known for it until they start realizing and practicing it. I do agree we can be great AoE DD. I don't know how we rate to Psychics, but I definitely favor my veno to my wiz. -Maybe because I can get the chi for Nova easier than I can for Mountain's Seize.

    I doubt they'll be known for it ever, regardless of if venos do live up to their full capabilities.

    - A lot of the AOEs venos have shine in solo grinding. Not many people sit around and watch others grind.

    - As part of human nature, people generally rely on history/tradition first. Venos have always been thought of as a debuff/support/alt-tank class, not at an AOE DD class.

    - Also as part of human nature, people rarely notice when others are doing good. It takes either a catastrophe and a magnificent save to get noticed for good or a **** up to get noticed for being a fail. People will notice if you don't amp or can't pull. They won't notice if you don't use Malefic.

    Environment and circumstances change much faster than peoples' perceptions and prejudices. Venos can be excellent AOE DDs but generally aren't seen as such.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Regarding the title: We're actually a good mix of 1-1 DD, AoE DD. phys/ mag. Flexible as **** and worthy for most jobs.
    And other classes have speed boosts and/or superior range as well. I've never seen an issue with someone keeping up in 90+ FF's and that includes slower classes such as clerics, psychics, and wizards.

    If you don't see it; it doesn't mean it's not there. At 90, a wiz will probably need genie for expel, and chi for AoE instead of Distance Shrink. They could be weak and not get aggro, (not needing expel).
    You're comparing a 2 spark skill to a chi gaining skill? Of course crush has the potential to do more damage in a single cast, but at a significantly higher cost.

    No cost in RB with chi aura, and even with lower level of it: Sage has Master Li's, Lending Hand, and Venemous to help gain.
    In a pve situation, the mana drain is worthless. Damagewise, it's benefits are countered by the lack of good filler skills to use while in fox form.

    What filler skill is better in HF?

    Myriad Rainbow is great, but it's an instant cast, so it doesn't do much in the way of filling. Befuddling mist does **** damage, the AOE range and the fact that it's directional make it a pretty pitiful AOE, and the debuff can cause more damage than good.

    Befuddling is not that bad, do you suggest doing nothing?
    No, I didn't forget myriad. In fact I mentioned it. But the combination of Malefic Crush/Myriad still generally doesn't out perform what you can get done in mage form- especially for pure mag.

    Myriad boosts the Dmg of all DD's on multiple mobs, and it's not worth it? -lol
    Befuddling - crappy AOE.

    -So? Take a **** or get off the toilet (tell us what's better)
    Other fox skills - not too stellar if you're pure mag.

    Malefic works great for pure mag. Base phys + 7556 on high mag def mobs is pretty good.
    - A lot of the AOEs venos have shine in solo grinding. Not many people sit around and watch others grind.

    They don't need to. They see a Veno 1-2 shot ~50 mobs they rounded up themselves and it's obvious. They try to KS and again.
    - As part of human nature, people generally rely on history/tradition first. Venos have always been thought of as a debuff/support/alt-tank class, not at an AOE DD class.

    And what happened with BM's past and present? Are you going to stick with the fail guides and faulty logic while everyone else progresses? (I didn't start this thread you know).
    - Also as part of human nature, people rarely notice when others are doing good. It takes either a catastrophe and a magnificent save to get noticed for good or a **** up to get noticed for being a fail. People will notice if you don't amp or can't pull. They won't notice if you don't use Malefic.

    They don't have to notice if you don't use Malefic, but many do anyway. They also notice when you steal and keep aggro from their wiz, BM, etc.
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  • SeaStorm - Heavens TearSeaStorm - Heavens Tear Posts: 315 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    tweakz wrote: »
    I have yet to see a BM as effective as my veno AoE grinding. Remember also that most are gimping their patk to wear claws. Maybe they're just too preoccupied with Nirvana?


    ROFL for this. However, there are a few (rare but still around) that haven't gimped their patk and wear claws (as well as a few that run all 4 paths) and as for the rest if they haven't gimped their patk they've gimped their health.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Vitenka - DreamweaverVitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    A good BM can grind at almost the same rate as us - they can dispatch the mobs more quickly, but can't usually risk quite as big a pull.

    But then they have to either use pots, or stop and rest. We don't. We energiser bunny.

    But yes- when a squad asks for "AOE DD" then they want continual damage output, they mean archer or wizard.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Continuous AoE is kinda a joke. It was an MP drain used to sell MP charms. Outside of RB: 2-3 hit kills win, inside RB: timed stronger hits to coincide with HF / Subsea / demon nova/ whatever. RB is about whether you can get the job done or not and a veno can be a capable DD there.
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  • xxxdsmerxxxdsmer Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    alot are saying they woulndt consider veno an aoe DD class... which in the regards of being able to constantly cast AOE's, veno isnt..

    but where it really matters, like in frost, everything that the group is aoe'ing should be dead long before, or just after the veno casting a 3rd aoe (nox > nova > nox)... not to mention noxious gas sleep/seals a good many of the mobs it hits, and demon nova adds another effect similar to BM's dragons.

    so no we sure cant constantly spam aoe's, but we actually can contribute quite a bit to AOE DD (with nox>nova>nox.. and that not even counting myriad debuffs) in times like large pulls in frost or even having a ton of melee mobs around the herc, tossing a nox here and there after the herc's established agro fairly well helps kill 'em faster.

    and alot of ppl say veno's **** for DD.. but they dont realize part of the damage comes from the veno and part from the pet... and actually veno's the best DD to have around for HH (and i magine other instance bosses) because the pet does full damage to the boss (whereas players do something like 25% dmg)

    i also imagine mystic summons might do full damage to HH (and other) bosses as well... but their summons wont get close to hercules lvl unless their armor and refines affects their 'summons'... and even then it'd probalby take +10 to +12 everything for mystic's summon(s) to get on a level of performance with the herc/nix (if its even possible to do so)

    and tweakz msg reminded me... i usually time that first nox so it lands right after HF/subsea and end up doing considerable damage to the mobs in frost, even as a "properly built" lv90 HA veno (which is _supposed_ to be total **** for damage output lol... but most people dont know how to build a HA veno properly so i could see where that stereotype comes from) and i'm not crazy refined either... probably the highest on anything is a measly +3, but i can use the hh90 glaive or requiem blade and wear a full set of hh90 greens (heavy) [and my veno's lv90 to boot]
    i'm pro all classes, and against none in particular..
    but the age old QQ about venos is just that. OLD.
    QQ'd about a nix lately? check out this thread n tell me who's "OP" lol..
    (copy and paste this to address bar):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=102172
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    xxxdsmer wrote: »
    alot are saying they woulndt consider veno an aoe DD class... which in the regards of being able to constantly cast AOE's, veno isnt..

    Wiz DB only has an effect every 3 seconds, is unaffected by -ch, doesn't build sparks and drains MP. I'd rather go with veno's AoE in just about any circumstance there is, so I don't see this as an argument.
    and alot of ppl say veno's **** for DD.. but they dont realize part of the damage comes from the veno and part from the pet... and actually veno's the best DD to have around for HH (and i magine other instance bosses) because the pet does full damage to the boss (whereas players do something like 25% dmg)

    They are [?] bosses or mobs, and I can way out DD a pet on them as a caster. Good int Sins, BMs and Barbs can way out DD me 1-1.
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