APS getting nerfed! True or False?

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2011

i dont really agree rawrgh. standards are high because of 5aps.
when someone can spend a -relatively small- amount of coins and get 5aps the standards will rise
it's like the rank sale; too powerful for it's price that makes everything else obsolete.

Relatively small?

Lunar Weapon: 70mil
TT99 Wrists: 5mil
TT99 Chest: 36mil + had to farm the 8 green mats which were ~1mil ea at the time
Lunar Cape: 35mil
TT99 Neck and belt: ~32mil
Nirvana legs: 120mil + 100 uncannys which were 700k at the time

It took me several months to farm all that.

5aps squads arent that "professional". yes the professional squads are mostly 5aps; yet there are way too many 5aps or close to 5aps or close to the dps of 5aps to call a 5aps exclusive.

They take the people that's best for their squad, which will never be a caster.

r9+12 wizzies have a great dps; the only thing that makes it look insignificant is the huge dps of 5aps.

Compared to a +12 R9 archer? Not even close.

Mage DPS really is that bad. I have done TT runs, 4 people in a 2-3, me, cleric, two mages. ANd then again with me, cleric, two archers. I was pure vit at the time, there was a HUGE difference between the two runs.

are you telling me that ppl would pick an undergeared archer instead of a +10 r8 mage?

They would pick a +10 R8 archer instead of a +10 R8 mage, hell, they'll pick a +8 R8 archer instead of a +10 R8 mage.

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear · February 2011

RuneSeeker - Harshlands wrote: »

We've got a few melee skills (lightning, winged pledge/wingspan). If archers were truly designed in mind to be able to use melee weapons just like their ranged weapons, we would have a skill tree devoted to melee weapons/masteries/skills. Let's stick to what pwi thinks of archers, and not an IRL definition of them. Blademasters can use fists, psychics can't predict the future, ect ect

First thing, it's not the IRL definition of the class, it's the widely recognized acceptance of the definition by various other games, PWI is the first game that I have come across that does not follow the traditionally accepted ranger build. I, by all means, am not saying it's a bad thing; I am however, saying that going melee should be required given the right circumstances. I am well aware of what skills an archer has that don't suffer the damage reduction due to range; I have a 100+ archer myself and I would like to say, IMO, that Winged Pledge isn't worth the pixel use.

In regards to the statement of squads wanting archers to use claws, the simple remedy is to not go with them if you don't agree. No one can really blame anyone for wanting to get things done as fast as possible. Personally, I won't even bother going on Nirvana runs without high DD power. This isn't saying I will only go with APS users, but I will not go with squishy people who get killed in 1 attack and I won't go with people who are unable to deal a good amount of damage. The Nirvana runs I go on average around 12 minutes. I have probably only done a dozen FF runs on BM, and about 100 on my archer, and if I had to choose between just anybody and APS users, I'd take the APS users.

Do I agree that the removal, or cap, of 5 APS will re-instill some knowledge of class play? To an extent. Anyone can tell the difference between a player who actually knows how to play their class and a player that has chosen to rely on APS and believes that that will be enough to get by. But, I also know that there will be so many unhappy players who put in the effort to get the 4 or 5 APS that they're so proud of, if it were to be removed or capped; me being one of them.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2011

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Relatively small?

Lunar Weapon: 70mil
TT99 Wrists: 5mil
TT99 Chest: 36mil + had to farm the 8 green mats which were ~1mil ea at the time
Lunar Cape: 35mil
TT99 Neck and belt: ~32mil
Nirvana legs: 120mil + 100 uncannys which were 700k at the time

It took me several months to farm all that.

Well... I think your point will not be heard. After all, getting 5 aps on a BM or a barb is the most expensive thing you can do, since you kinda need the TT99 chest, whereas Archers get R4 or R6 much cheaper.

Well, if you speak about costs, Sins would probably be the top if using Daggers. If not, then it's just silly.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2011

Archers are probably the worst class to get 5 aps with though, if nothing else, because of lack of bloodpaint.

Xarathox - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

No they wouldn't.

Even with a sword with -.10 the highest aps a seeker could get is 2.22 base, which is only 2.86 sparked.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=5d49443ef1f41dd0

Odd, melee swords have 1.11 rates while magic have 1.25 (same as daggers).

Finrah - Sanctuary · February 2011

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Aps will be nerfed to 3.33. I have a reliable source that I will not share with anyone.

haha xD

Well usually when China version goes some way, PWI goes the same way.

Nerf nerf nerf! I support it O/

(5 aps barbs, gtfo and play ur class =.=)

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · February 2011

I easily out-DD a bm with some missing pieces of interval.
Should that bm have the missing parts, I couldnt do that even if he didnt change/refine his weapon.

So:
elite geared > 5aps bm > archer with same gear > caster > archers with worse gear> lower int bm

now, if u nerf 5aps it will be:
elite geared >archer with same gear> caster> archers with worse gear> bm

i dont say that there wont be anyone better; but there will be enough 5aps yet undergeared players that, when u remove the 5aps i'll have more DPS.

I think that your argument is targeted to casters with a +2 tt99 green that whine thinking that, should 5aps be removed, they will be wanted.
And in that case you are right.
But we are not talking about +2 tt99; are you telling that, every bm will out-DD a r9+12 wiz?
Yes, maybe the r9+12 archer will out-DD the wiz.

how many r9+12 archer there are? 2? 3? 10?
are you telling that there are just 10 squads that do an awesome job in farming?

tl;dr:
Currently the expected DPS for an average squad is high.
So high that casters cant reach it.
lower aps -> lower expected average dps -> a wiz that spend 2bil will be able to compete with a bm that spent 500mil.
maybe the wiz wont get in the squads of bms/archers/w/e that spent 2bil; and maybe they will whine but he will be in some squads that would be considered good and fast.

anyway, there is no point talking without numbers; and i'm in the mood to compare dps of all classes in relation to the aps.
also, i dont even know why i'm doing this; i dont support a 5aps nerf but a caster boost (either in the sheer dps or even better by aoe instances).

and on the expensive or not; according to ur list it's 368m (arent u missing a tome?)
just my weapon is more than half of that.

Olbaze - Sanctuary · February 2011

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

tl;dr:
Currently the expected DPS for an average squad is high.
So high that casters cant reach it.
lower aps -> lower expected average dps -> a wiz that spend 2bil will be able to compete with a bm that spent 500mil.
maybe the wiz wont get in the squads of bms/archers/w/e that spent 2bil; and maybe they will whine but he will be in some squads that would be considered good and fast.

anyway, there is no point talking without numbers; and i'm in the mood to compare dps of all classes in relation to the aps.
also, i dont even know why i'm doing this; i dont support a 5aps nerf but a caster boost (either in the sheer dps or even better by aoe instances).

and on the expensive or not; according to ur list it's 368m (arent u missing a tome?)
just my weapon is more than half of that.

Then again, to have 2,000,000,000 to spend on a weapon kinda speaks that you are already plenty rich as it is.

Also, Wizards and psychics are still good for PvP. Or so I hear. I dunno, don't PvP.

And really, the list that I provided was the minimum to reach it. Of course, if you want the best setup, you'll be talking about a Dark Death Thorn with 2x -0.05 and God of Frenzy and Cube Neck and Warsong belt or a third piece of Nirvana.

And yes, getting that 368,000,000 coins is a bit tough since most squads won't even look at you if you have less than 3.33 aps and do not know someone in the squad.

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary · February 2011

Considering I'm 2.8 (because of being stuck at sage) and still used to get plenty of nirvana when I played, standards aren't nearly as high as people pretend. As long as you have int, most people don't care what class you are. 3.33 just means a lot more people get the chance to be included. I wouldn't even mind a 2.5 nerf.

No farmers or cash shoppers are going to quit except the idiots. Most of them can sell their tomes or unbound equipment pieces to drop a little -int and pour it into refines, thus still having superior dps to most of the server and being online "gods" (in their eyes). And on the positive side, if more people catch up, then all the more people to enjoy endgame content with.

(5 aps barbs, gtfo and play ur class =.=)

They kinda can't atm O.o
5.0 IS playing their class. They have no place as agro holders, so they provide buffs and the highest potential DD, making themselves as useful as possible to the squad. An aps nerf allows a skilled barb to just about keep up.

Knownase - Heavens Tear · February 2011

Finrah - Sanctuary wrote: »

haha xD

Well usually when China version goes some way, PWI goes the same way.

Nerf nerf nerf! I support it O/

(5 aps barbs, gtfo and play ur class =.=)

I think 5.0 Barb are still playing their class. b:chuckle

5.0 Barbs can regain their rightful role as "Tank" when built correctly, therefore, they are still playing their class.....right?

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2011

An APS nerf most definitely does not allow a barb to keep up. I was grabbing aggro from barbs at 7x with a sling shot. Now you have people with +12 R9 GG

Firefeng - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

An APS nerf most definitely does not allow a barb to keep up. I was grabbing aggro from barbs at 7x with a sling shot. Now you have people with +12 R9 GG

7x Barbs didn't have 5 APS. My 96 Sin is only at 2.5 APS. I tank everything I do with anyone who is under 10x (and even some instances with 10x DDs with lower APS), save for AoE pulls in FC (and with demon spark + 60 ATT levels, it's not uncommon for me to have hate on those, too, after using Subsea + Earthen Rift + BR, considering I've seen Rift hit groups of mobs for 100k+).

There is a 101 Clawbarb in my faction that has almost twice my DPS. If he were on more often, I'd kill to have him tank instead. He'll still probably outdamage me at 100 until I get Nirvy gear, even if I'm rank 8. You don't seem to realize that allowing Barbs 5 APS allows them to tank much better than they could before...

Vorhs - Lost City · February 2011

Rawrgh im bored of you so i'll kill your sentences with this simple equation:

You mean that mages must suck in pve cause they rule in tw, right?

So it should be:

Mages effectiveness:
PvE 30%
PvP 80%
TWs 100%

APS effectiveness:
PvE 100%
PvP 80%

now, to be really BALANCED, aps should really SUCK in TW. (to have 30%)

do they suck? i dont think so, i think their effectiveness in TW is around 80% too.

They're just "perfect" for everything and at least "very good" with the things they do worst. While wizards just really suck in everything but TWs.

is this balance? b:bye

PS.
and i didnt mention the fact that u can TW max 3 times a week, while u can nirvana 21 times a week and do HH as many times as you want. so if you extend the unbalance through time the difference is way more evident.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2011

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

7x Barbs didn't have 5 APS. My 96 Sin is only at 2.5 APS. I tank everything I do with anyone who is under 10x (and even some instances with 10x DDs with lower APS), save for AoE pulls in FC (and with demon spark + 60 ATT levels, it's not uncommon for me to have hate on those, too, after using Subsea + Earthen Rift + BR, considering I've seen Rift hit groups of mobs for 100k+).

There is a 101 Clawbarb in my faction that has almost twice my DPS. If he were on more often, I'd kill to have him tank instead. He'll still probably outdamage me at 100 until I get Nirvy gear, even if I'm rank 8. You don't seem to realize that allowing Barbs 5 APS allows them to tank much better than they could before...

That's why I said an APS nerf would not allow a barb to keep up because non APS DDs have already been taking aggro from non-claw barbs in the first place. Read what I posted.

WnbTank - Archosaur · February 2011

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sins are only good in small fights in world PvP, they get destroyed in TW where you can use bramble, or any place where there are more than 5 people.

And yes, casters are far better. A mage can stand 30 meters from a group of people, use BIDS and one shot everyone, then distance shrink back.

For me to do something even comparable, I have to run up right in the middle of that group of people (run into the middle of a group of ppl in TW = insta death) Use armageddon which automatically ticks my charm and then attempt to somehow get away.

Most of the time I'm dead before I even get there.

You forgot to mention wizzie also does at least 2x the damage barb will be, with compareable "average" gear. Arma really needs lots hp to work in TW, demon sunder is great, still wizzies do 3-4x the damage with bids compared to my sunder, assuming they got as highly refined R8 wep as I do, lol.

Vorhs - Lost City wrote: »

Rawrgh im bored of you so i'll kill your sentences with this simple equation:

You mean that mages must suck in pve cause they rule in tw, right?

So it should be:

Mages effectiveness:
PvE 30%
PvP 80%
TWs 100%

APS effectiveness:
PvE 100%
PvP 80%

now, to be really BALANCED, aps should really SUCK in TW. (to have 30%)

do they suck? i dont think so, i think their effectiveness in TW is around 80% too.

They're just "perfect" for everything and at least "very good" with the things they do worst. While wizards just really suck in everything but TWs.

is this balance? b:bye

PS.
and i didnt mention the fact that u can TW max 3 times a week, while u can nirvana 21 times a week and do HH as many times as you want. so if you extend the unbalance through time the difference is way more evident.

I`d put aps 5% in TW, anybody who uses fists/claws for more than chi gain is pretty much failing the class. Heck, I dont even use them for that, I`ll just spam my demon hp buff, eats pots like hell but gives bit of chi for the squad too =/. Aps only help sins and archers in TW, barbs and BMs will stick to axes, if they are smart that is. Dunno why I even put sins there, they pretty much havoc the one target till they bail/get killed, with or w/o aps. And -int for bow? Sure it helps but it`s not gonna be some "yay, I win the game".

Ps. Have you seen anybody with fists/claws in TW? I feel sorry for your server if you have.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2011

Wow now that I saw that quote, I have to say that fists/claws really does suck in mass PvP. In TW you'd only claw someone if they are isolated. Among a huge group of people you need to get in, stun, and get out before your immunities run out. (you did have immunities on going in right? Otherwise it's a wonder how you reached the enemy)

With Jone's Bless cheap rank, seriously APS has no place in TW. Good BMs stun, debuff if they have chi, and move on. If you look at a BM that ONLY TWs versus a wizard or archer that only TWs, the BM's kill count simply cannot compare.

Vorhs - Lost City · February 2011

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

Ps. Have you seen anybody with fists/claws in TW? I feel sorry for your server if you have.

Sins are good in TW for stealth, BMs and barbs can switch to axes to rule and be effective, in particular for catapuller and aoe stunners, archers are good if switch to bow.

So they are versatile, claw/fists in pve and bow/axe in TW.

Wizards cant switch to "aps spells" in pve to be effective.

There's the umbalance between classes.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide · February 2011

Bramble in TW, pretty much kills the effectiveness of APS, I've seen more than one sin die by attacking me while I had bramble on.

Sins are really only good for scouting and killing respawn pillars in TW. Occassionally kill that one guy who ran off on his own, but most of the time for a sin it's,

Unstealth by attacking random cleric
Random cleric uses expel
Get stunned by someone
Get facerolled by the clerics squad.

Even if the BM uses axes there can't be but so many of them.

Archer is decent at both PvE and PvP but sacrifices excelling in either. Archer is good but cant compete with the AOE DD of a mage in a TW. And in PvE their survival is probably the worst for 5 aps since they use LA and don't get bloodpaint.

Like I said, there's a reason most factions will take 3x as many mages as any other class.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear · February 2011

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sins are only good in small fights in world PvP, they get destroyed in TW where you can use bramble, or any place where there are more than 5 people.

And yes, casters are far better. A mage can stand 30 meters from a group of people, use BIDS and one shot everyone, then distance shrink back.

For me to do something even comparable, I have to run up right in the middle of that group of people (run into the middle of a group of ppl in TW = insta death) Use armageddon which automatically ticks my charm and then attempt to somehow get away.

Most of the time I'm dead before I even get there.

Amen, Brother.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2011

Vorhs - Lost City wrote: »

Sins are good in TW for stealth, BMs and barbs can switch to axes to rule and be effective, in particular for catapuller and aoe stunners, archers are good if switch to bow.

So they are versatile, claw/fists in pve and bow/axe in TW.

Wizards cant switch to "aps spells" in pve to be effective.

There's the unbalance between classes.

Then you should have clarified what you meant. Your previous quote implied that APS have some effectiveness in TW, which it doesn't. What you meant was that classes that can use APS gear are also useful in TW, which is true.

However, the melee classes are not NEARLY as fun as ranged DDs in TW and probably use more charm. Not even sins are that great in TW. I know a lot of people with very well-geared sin alts that still choose to play their archer/wiz in TW. Hell I know sins that rerolled for TW.

Knownase - Heavens Tear · February 2011

Wait, so are the non-APS users jealous of APS users that make tons of money?

If you could get rich from mass killing in TW, would we even have this talk?

This is really just all wrong. lol

WnbTank - Archosaur · February 2011

Vorhs - Lost City wrote: »

Sins are good in TW for stealth, BMs and barbs can switch to axes to rule and be effective, in particular for catapuller and aoe stunners, archers are good if switch to bow.

So they are versatile, claw/fists in pve and bow/axe in TW.

Wizards cant switch to "aps spells" in pve to be effective.

There's the umbalance between classes.

If you mean versatile by being pretty much useless in TW, then yes, barbs, bms and sins are totally versatile. Let`s give you some numbers, in order for me to be as efficient in TW as wizzie with R8 wep, +5(~100bucks) barb has to have ~20k hp(less and you are having trouble getting to the enemy casters), R8 +10 and even then barbs damage cant be compared to wizzie as arma is simply pretty damn hard to pull on more than 2 targets in TW. Did I mention vit build fails if you intend to do any damage as arma is plain suicidal, 80% of the time you wont be alive long enough to cast it. Barbs cant drop bids on nice groups, when we get there, they arent grouped that nicely anymore when they see barb aproaching. We lack range, we lack damage, we lack surprise element, all barbs got is hp, BMs dont even really have that going for them, lol.

Okey, barbs pull catas, it`s lucky every faction only got 4 barbs, thanks for telling exactly how balanced that is!

Vindrael - Lost City · February 2011

My wizard was good for TW. But now, with so many TW factions having a very high concentration of R9+12, it's virtually impossible for anyone other than the powerhouse faction to TW.

At 101, with a R8+10 Nature Talker, I can throw down a triple-spark BIDS and take away maybe 25% of a R9 veno's HP. I'm a one-shot for their ironwood scarab. It's ridiculous, really.

And to address another question posted earlier in this thread: Yes, the community QQed endlessly about OP wizards in PvP 18 months ago. So, the class was nerfed by PWI devs. For example, our skills used to give more chi per cast, now they are almost universally 5-10 chi per cast. Only certain skills used to be able to interrupt our channeling. Now all forms of damage can interrupt our channeling. The effect of magic resistance has been boosted, so nowadays it takes less magic resistance to resist the effects of wizard spells. If you don't believe me, log in to one of the private servers and see what wizards were like in 1.3.6. Then, come see how they are now in 1.4.2. It's a pretty big difference.

I suspect BMs and assassins will get a nerf eventually. I rolled a sin so I could farm and spend less money on the game. Once the company realizes that this is occurring, they will "tweak" sins to make them incapable of soloing instances. I don't know this for a fact, of course, but it would certainly fit the company's history and how they have run things so far.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2011

I do hope you don't actually believe the **** you just spewed. 5-10 chi on wizard spells LMAO

PYRO: 15 as always
GUSH: 10 as always
STONE RAIN: 15 as always

DIVINE PYRO: 20 as always
GLACIAL SNARE: 20 as always
SANDSTORM: 15 as always

Will of Phoenix: 15 as always

What else is there? What else "got nerfed"?? Only thing someone noticed was that Force of Will is now 10 chi so that means ALL WIZARD SPELLS ARE NOW 5-10 CHI amirite? You don't think more people would notice if what you said was true?

"Effect of magic resistance got boosted" is this something pulled out of your ***? How come no one else has noticed this? Even if that were true, there are 2 pdef party buffs in this game, and 1 mdef buff, wizards get 3 pdef buffs. Seriously take your Jone's Bless cheap rank in perspective before talking about the differences between wizards then and wizards now.

Or is this some **** **** your private server implemented or something?

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear · February 2011

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Considering I'm 2.8 (because of being stuck at sage) and still used to get plenty of nirvana when I played, standards aren't nearly as high as people pretend.

I am currently 4.0 as a sage BM; if you can still get plenty of Nirvana, it shouldn't take you that long to farm up the uncanny crystals needed to stage 2 your leggings, it took me a couple days between farming and buying. Then the only thing that you would be missing would be the cape, but I don't know how the prices are on Sanctuary, I know they're kind of high on Heaven's Tear. But then again, this all is only plausible if you actually still played.

Haden - Dreamweaver · February 2011

Tojop - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Aps will be nerfed to 3.33. I have a reliable source that I will not share with anyone.

Benny the transiant that lives in your garbage can doesnt count as a reliable source

APS getting nerfed! True or False?

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