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True potential of R8r

mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
edited May 2015 in Venomancer
http://mypers.pw/1.8/#132134/123502

If you are a demon veno and you did not upgrade to redstone or upgrade demon fox wallop. (evil laughs)

I settled for a more realistic reroll even though it is possible to achieve 83% pdmg reduction with absurd luck on rerolls and the proper %reduction ornament better tome combination.

The playstyle of this build is basically to tank and poke attacks while going full chi/mana suppression until ironwood 0 def procs and follow up with your choice of fox dd or arcane antimony (situational) try your best to keep the enemy cc'd to ensure you your opponent can do nothing when your opportunity procs. myriad mind games are good also for classes that will try to purify immediatly if they think the 0 def has proced

The beauty of this build is any form of physical damage is cut directly by 40% period.
The only things that have given me issues are unrealistic neumal portal/S+ card set builds and that is really only due to massive amounts of spirit.(new primal update will make this more potent)

Let's face it its nearly impossible for casters to kill each other 1v1 endgame with mdef charms/auto pot and charms going when you both have 20k+hp. Not writing magic off but veno's have methods for dealing with other casters.

I could get way better stats with r8rr but i despise creating unrealistic builds and western servers are afraid of quicksand maze leaving it beyond my grasp. Just need the tome, a few rerolls and the pdef ring upgrade and i will be there XD. I set max pots and buffs on both chars as well as debuffs but the calc keeps erasing the sin's edit. Also made a self buffed vs rendition
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Comments

  • Satyrion - SanctuarySatyrion - Sanctuary Posts: 255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    If you can afford full +12 and JoSD, then WHY are you wasting it on r8r? Drop some refines or shards and go for r999 to increase your stats even more o.o
    Let me compare to my own gear...
    My gear is not +12, josd or anything like that, but I have more physical and magical attack, more magical defense, more attack level. Pretty much equal physical defense. My defense levels arent much behind either. I have lower HP, but again I'm not +12 and I'm being pure magic. I'm not 105x3, and I dont have such a good card set either. Im simply full +10 with a +12 weapon, having 2x 3-set cards that arent fully leveled yet, and i use immac and incomparable shards.

    and about quicksand maze, I've actually been doing it literally daily (sometimes twice) for a month now b:chuckle discovered ways to locate the 'true' route to avoid dead ends.
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    ~ not that there is that much to see (yet?)
  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    First off wasting is all a matter of perspecptive. Go to school get a degree get a good job make 6 figures spend money on whatever you desire. I do not play this game to be the best i enjoy manipulating game mechanics. PWI has some of the most interesting to date. You also missed the point dear....r9rr can not achieve 40-83% pdmg reduction....That is like running around in a perma plume shell w/o any type of penalty...I stated that the build calculator will not post showing the debuffs and both characters gear/cards maxed. The assassin 3 sparked sage head hunt can not deal over 6.5k critted with just 40% reduction and self buffs. As i stated before if i really want to get risky i could aim for 83% reduction. The sin has a +12 full diety armor and a r9rr weapon. 3spark ult + debuffs dealing 6.5k if that puts anything into perspective.

    On the reverse end of the spectrum after stalling for demon ironwood to proc a following up arcane antimony would do 35k damage minimum to the sin. fox form hits deal 12k non crit.

    I also tested this with a standard emperor tome ect, venomancer magic full r9rr build all josd and this build takes less damage than the r9 from physical damage. 40% is the minimum i can obtain easily. Remeber this can be increased anywhere between 40-83%.

    With the trends PWI is following as far as endgame pvp is concerned, it is literally becoming impossible to kill endgame characters, so it is up to the players to think outside of the box and evolve along with the game. I have more combos to test but those are all dependent on the new primals and astroble system and i must wait to experiment.

    In regard to QSM i play on a pvp server. Not saying there isnt pvp on sanc but people rarely do QSM because it drops mats for pve gear unless u plan on getting r8rr it is practically useless. Is it fun yes. I enjoy content that makes you think and + 1 devs for creating more team oriented strategic pve.

    I hope you now "truly" realize why this is so amazing.
  • Satyrion - SanctuarySatyrion - Sanctuary Posts: 255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yes, I totally missed that point. My apologies.
    25 less defense levels, 10 less attack, a lot of magic etc in trade for the high physical damage reduction. Now I'm not into the math to say if the defense levels are worth it for the physical damage reduction, it probably is for physical damage reduction, but I dont really like the sacrifice of m.attack and incoming magic damage though. But I guess it would be fun against just melee like sins.

    Howeveer if it were me going for this build, I would do a few twists tho, like put Wings of Ascension in the build since it seems we're focusing on the phy damage reduction here, which is an extra +4% from that cape. Then switch one of the rings out for the r9r ring (you have to get 200k rep anyway for this build, and money didnt look like a problem either lol) since it offers both magical and physical defense and attacks as well as 50% accuracy.
    Getting rb2 incacerate is just as unrealistic imo as nuema portal set. I mean I have few nuema portal cards (total 4), but not a single incacerate on any of my characters.

    Nobody on sanctuary really runs quicksand maze either, my partner just wanted his r8rr def level weapon and I decided to help out and getting it myself too. Honestly armor is surprising easy to get, while weapon gonna take quite a while. I dont believe pve or pvp server has much to do with it now, as r8r gear isnt populair gear anymore even for pve.
    youtube.com/user/Cebloon
    ~ not that there is that much to see (yet?)
  • tek1nigtek1nig Posts: 778 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yes, I totally missed that point. My apologies.
    25 less defense levels, 10 less attack, a lot of magic etc in trade for the high physical damage reduction. Now I'm not into the math to say if the defense levels are worth it for the physical damage reduction, it probably is for physical damage reduction, but I dont really like the sacrifice of m.attack and incoming magic damage though. But I guess it would be fun against just melee like sins.

    Howeveer if it were me going for this build, I would do a few twists tho, like put Wings of Ascension in the build since it seems we're focusing on the phy damage reduction here, which is an extra +4% from that cape. Then switch one of the rings out for the r9r ring (you have to get 200k rep anyway for this build, and money didnt look like a problem either lol) since it offers both magical and physical defense and attacks as well as 50% accuracy.
    Getting rb2 incacerate is just as unrealistic imo as nuema portal set. I mean I have few nuema portal cards (total 4), but not a single incacerate on any of my characters.

    Nobody on sanctuary really runs quicksand maze either, my partner just wanted his r8rr def level weapon and I decided to help out and getting it myself too. Honestly armor is surprising easy to get, while weapon gonna take quite a while. I dont believe pve or pvp server has much to do with it now, as r8r gear isnt populair gear anymore even for pve.

    This build pisses me off ... thank god a veno like that doesn't exist here on the Harshlands b:angry
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  • Satyrion - SanctuarySatyrion - Sanctuary Posts: 255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    By the way how are you getting this "up to 83% pdmg reduction"?
    youtube.com/user/Cebloon
    ~ not that there is that much to see (yet?)
  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Nothing against you tek1nig just a build i came across in the calculator with impressive stats to compare too. all the average r9 chars either did pathetic damage that barely made it past 4k 3sparked unless they were neuma portal or full s+ set.... As for incoming magic damage this build takes it fairly well. You also keep overlooking the fact that once your defense is 0 your def lvls become way less effective, which is how arcane antimony and fox skills are able to hit so hard. dealing anywhere from 20-35k non crit on most classes in the build calculator. It works on the same principles as the old wiz spark combo that 1 hit pys in white vodoo. no defense means your defense lvls have nothing to reduce damage from. Once your def is 0 it stays there only way around it is to expell for the duration, purify, or faith. Charms ect dnt work at this point because there is nothing to reduce from. As for nuema if i already have the full WS set its not really hard to rb a ton of c cards and feed my set. If i really worked at it maybe i could find more ppl to do QSM and you already stated r8rr is not popular. All the g15 was actually +10's free from all the orb giveaways and back in the day and when you could actually get chinkun in the event boutique, so +12's the rest wasnt really much of an issue. What good are 25 def lvls that are rendered useless. Sure the attack lvls and m attack might be usefull but that can be easily reduced with mdef charms. I went through the mattack dilema as well but realized this isnt a traditional build and isnt played like one either. The entire build focuses on chi/mana supression until you get a proc and blow away the enemy. I also didnt use the r9 ring upgrade due to the fact that the 5 attack lvls have no diminishing returns. 1k of base magic and a regular reduction difference of less that 1% is negligible. I am quite thorough. No need to go all out if i see my experiment works.

    Getting 83% involves what you stated partially but some items are not worth the time hunting down. 9% reduction tome, 4% cape, 3% nw helm , 2% procing 4x on each piece of r8rr gear, and 5% 3x(r8rr could actually do this 5x settled on 3) on r8rr wep +15% bonus from gear set +yin or yang cube belts + 6% total(seen them ingame before they exist) cleric named Latrappe had belt...All this comes out to 84% actually....
  • Satyrion - SanctuarySatyrion - Sanctuary Posts: 255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I was talking about this builds defense level and survivability, not fighting someone with this build and their defense levels.
    Btw the wristguards cannot get physical damage reduction stats.
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    ~ not that there is that much to see (yet?)
  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Woops miscalculation on my part i'll just upgrade the tome or swap out something else to make up for lost reduction.(lol make the wrists magic reduction)b:chuckle

    Im also not sure what point you are getting at since this build is focused on survivablity. It takes magic damage well and physical damage exceptionally well. Even if it were in a non pvp situation the survivablity is excellent. Defense lvls also have a direct effect on survivablity. A good example would be fighting polearm or perfume in frost when it was popular. They have debuffs that put your defense close to 0. Your damage intake will increase dramatically. A good example of this would be take a psy in white vodoo with decent or good defence get debuffed by pole and watch it take almost 3x as much damage despite white vodoo being up.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Before I say anything, I don't want you to think I'm attacking you or your proposed build. However, I'd really like to debate over the things you've said, because I think it's an interesting topic and these forums have been rather dead so it's been a while since we had something to talk about.


    The playstyle of this build is basically to tank and poke attacks while going full chi/mana suppression until ironwood 0 def procs and follow up with your choice of fox dd or arcane antimony (situational) try your best to keep the enemy cc'd to ensure you your opponent can do nothing when your opportunity procs. myriad mind games are good also for classes that will try to purify immediatly if they think the 0 def has proced

    I personally don't like Demon Venomancers that only try to proc Ironwood (unless big gear gap I guess o.o, no chance to deal damage without it probably), because I think there is more to Demon Venomancers than just that, especially in group PvP, TW etc. Although this play style itself is not inherently bad, and I guess you are talking about 1v1?

    In that case however, a smart opponent can avoid death. They will save apothecary pots or genie for when Ironwood procs. That's particularly easy if the Venomancer poses no threat if they are mostly just trying to proc Ironwood, so the opponent is not in any real danger until/if it procs (they might be annoyed with the occasional Bewitch and whatever else, but not in danger). Even if they do not have apothecary/genie ready when the skill procs, they can still use a defence charm to survive. Yes, they do work. I've survived an Ironwood proc & Arcane Antinomy combo on a number of occasions.

    You can use your pet (assuming Monkey) to pop the defence charm, but how likely is it that your pet will still be alive when Ironwood procs? A smart opponent will make sure to kill the pet as soon as possible. You can use Fox Form attacks, but that will not immediately kill the opponent, unless their HP is already lower(ed), so this gives them room to react. Fox Wallop might proc, but again, how likely it is that it will proc in the ideal moment you need it?

    I prefer Grudge Strike for chi building, that extra chi helps me sometimes to throw an extra Myriad or Chi Burn. Plus, Primal Fox skills always hit, so then you won't need accuracy shards in your weapon. You can instead add more attack or whatever you want. Consider the fact that Assassins and Archers have high evasion. Grudge Strike also has a minor increase in its damage but that's arguable. In my opinion, the ability to always hit is enough of a reason to upgrade to Grudge Strike/Dark Taboo regardless of what the old skills offered, which really wasn't much (except for botting Venomancers that use Leech/Consume Spirit).

    Regarding myriad, your proposed idea isn't bad. It may throw some people off, but you'll have in keep in mind that an opponent can pay attention to when Myriad is used, and it might confuse you as well if you happen to Myriad & Ironwood and then not know which skill proc'd. b:chuckle

    The beauty of this build is any form of physical damage is cut directly by 40% period.
    The only things that have given me issues are unrealistic neumal portal/S+ card set builds and that is really only due to massive amounts of spirit.(new primal update will make this more potent)

    The overall physical resistance/reduction is interesting. I'm gonna have to agree with Satyrion however, unless you already have the Incacerate card, getting the Warsong set is highly unrealistic. Even if you do have the card, the chances of getting the whole set are low. I'm missing just one card from the Candleflame set and I've opened so many packs just for it, but nothing...

    Also, RB2 Incacerate? Not gonna happen. Not even RB1, unless you have some crazy luck.

    I know your build is geared towards high physical defence/reduction but magic can hurt you quite a bit, especially when debuffed and debuffs will happen. You may say that you fare well against magic, but playing with the calculator, my Venomancer can actually 2-shot you with Myriad proc if I get 2 crits in a now (assuming for some reason you can't avoid damage) or without double crit but with Myriad & Amplify etc. (Even more likely with lesser cards on your side, because like I said the card set up you have there is not very likely) Well, Desdi not so much (and you can deal similar damage to me) but you have a clear card/shard advantage there. (This was unbuffed 1v1 by the way, but even buffed I can pull off some numbers with debuffs, except that there's more HP to go through.)


    I always say that magic is not something to completely ignore just because we wear arcane armor. Well, just something to keep in mind.



    Another thing to consider: Hybrid R9rr Venomancers and Full Vit R9rr Venomancers (played with calculators but too lazy to post so bear with me).

    Since R9rr offers more magic, they can take out more magic points (300-400 Magic, 280-380 Vitality) while keeping similar or slightly higher magic attack than your build, respectively. They gain more physical/magical base defences along with HP. They still get hit a little harder (usually by 1k-1.5k) but they have the HP to make up for it. This is with Vit.Stones which are cheaper than JOSD (there's also Creation Stones, assuming you farm them). If we switch to JOSD, there is loss in base defences and HP, but the overall damage reduction is higher than the Vit.Stone one. (This is from the physical side, there's benefits to magic side I skipped.)

    Well, you can go all the way pure Vit as well (580 Vitality, 100 Magic and gear gives you the other 200+), but that's gimping your attack way too much and it's really mainly a pure support build for mass/group PvP, TW etc. You can go to even more extremes, and stat only 30-50 Magic (gear gives you 300 to equip weapon) and stat the max Vitality possible to reach 40k HP buffed (with JOSDs), but you really won't kill anyone ever b:shocked still a fun full support build to theorize about.


    Now weapon...
    R9rr weapon with Purify is just really useful, though the damage is a little more random because it's a pataka. I think for your build R9rr weapon is better though. You do seem to want to go for a defensive route and the proc can purify and get you out of situations, especially vs. Assassins as they don't have Paralyze. Without R9rr weapon, they can stunlock you more easily. And this isn't just about surviving/tanking damage, but about the chance to break out of the stunlock more often in order to counter attack.
    no defense means your defense lvls have nothing to reduce damage from

    JOSDs do reduce the damage from Ironwood proc & Arcane Antinomy, they just usually aren't enough to prevent a 1-shot by themselves. Well, this doesn't change your argument much, but I thought I should mention it. Although, in a situation in which the opponent has HP buff and your Venomancer doesn't crit it won't be enough damage for a complete 1-shot but that's kind of situational as well. (This is all according to the test damage on the simulator though.)



    Lastly, theories are great and all, but what actually happens on the battlefield can be very different. Sometimes, offence is the best defence. Someone who plays aggressively offensively and has the attack power to make use of it can force the opponent to use up their defensive options (pots, genie, chi skills) to create openings and kill. Playstyle, luck, skill. So much to take into account.

    The verdict? Do whatever you want and have fun with, of course. As you can expect however, I still consider the R9rr builds superior for a number of reasons. Pure magic serves me in particular for giving me the kind of flexibility I need for the things I do.


    PS. How expensive is the destroyer belt?
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  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I always love reading your critiques....My build is in preparation for the new penetration primals... Also revamped my build to nerf magic as well using your card set up.Now niether can effectively kill the other unless i get a lucky proc and your resources are ehausted. Its rare but i have seen the r8rr wep on a bm proc 3x magic dmg reduction at 5%. The only hard part would be replicating the effect on r8r armor.

    In mass pvp i wouldnt bother attacking people unless it was for CC, sealing groups, dropping fox form myriads and purging high profile targets. Veno isnt really a primary DD class. This build is mainly for 1v1's. I also make use of the other veno skills to keep on pressure. Only attacking with just iron woods would and myriad would be boring, not making use of the venomancers strengths, and predictable.

    The only fox form move not upgraded would be fox wallop. All other fox primals upgraded since they do not miss and have some range.
    Fox wallop isnt upgraded due to the fact that it can force psuedo zerks crits.

    As for mind games have you ever tried cast canceling? I would not cast ironwood until i am positive a myriad proc has expired. You can instacast a myriad right after channeling an ironwood and vice versa. Example use myriad right after casting ironwood if you see it didnt proc. Cast myriad. If it did cool go for the 1 shot. Not too many people are going to realize that a myriad proced instead unless they checked thier defenses. It is still up to chance but let say myriad procs instead continue surppression while opponent would waste thier apoth or genie. This would also limit what genie skills the enemy will use since they are saving up for the big nuke.

    Pets. It's not hard to keep a pet alive as a demon. Have more than one. The monkey is nice for CC but lil dolphy is quite tanky as well with the right nature a stun, short c/d knock back, and dmg nerf skills. Its not hard to run away from another caster as a demon veno+ holypath and rez a pet or resummon if you unsummoned. Always be on the move and appliying pressure.

    I have no problem with feedback or other proposed ideas. As stated previously i like to antagonize game mechanics. I also agree things may look good on pen and paper but my be completely different against real people. Will be fun to test once i am complete. That being said take a look at the tweaks. http://mypers.pw/1.8/#134707/131514
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I always love reading your critiques....My build is in preparation for the new penetration primals...
    I admit I didn't take into consideration any of the upcoming changes because I'm not quite sure how they work and I don't want to make any speculations yet. I've done it enough in the past, and it didn't always come out how I expected b:laugh I'm particularly curious to about the penetration feature and the charm cooldown "debuff" passive... those are some new things for sure.

    The only fox form move not upgraded would be fox wallop. All other fox primals upgraded since they do not miss and have some range.
    Fox wallop isnt upgraded due to the fact that it can force psuedo zerks crits.

    Heh, well we'll just have to disagree on this part it seems. I just didn't find it reliable enough to justify not upgrading it. Grudge Strike is simply too appealing for me because of what I said in my previous post.

    As for mind games have you ever tried cast canceling? I would not cast ironwood until i am positive a myriad proc has expired. You can instacast a myriad right after channeling an ironwood and vice versa. Example use myriad right after casting ironwood if you see it didnt proc. Cast myriad. If it did cool go for the 1 shot. Not too many people are going to realize that a myriad proced instead unless they checked thier defenses. It is still up to chance but let say myriad procs instead continue surppression while opponent would waste thier apoth or genie. This would also limit what genie skills the enemy will use since they are saving up for the big nuke.

    Cast cancelling doesn't always work for me, probably because of my ping. I usually play with 300-400 ping average. It does make a slight difference... For similar reasons sometimes I need to use Faith + Feral (or IG) instead of Fortify (when playing Sage, for Demon I can just use Summer Sprint). Fortify has lead me to stunning myself numerous times. Whenever I have to Fortify + Feral (IG) I always pray it goes through lol.

    Your technique does seem more likely to confuse people, I'll give you that.


    Pets. It's not hard to keep a pet alive as a demon. Have more than one. The monkey is nice for CC but lil dolphy is quite tanky as well with the right nature a stun, short c/d knock back, and dmg nerf skills. Its not hard to run away from another caster as a demon veno+ holypath and rez a pet or resummon if you unsummoned. Always be on the move and appliying pressure.

    To be honest, that also depends on who you're fighting. In some fights, an opponent will do a great job in killing your pet or preventing you from getting your pet out. Then, the time spent running away/reviving/resummoning pet could have been used to pressure the opponent instead, as it also allows the opponent's cooldowns to be ready or almost ready, for when you come back. Don't get me wrong though, I try to resummon pet when possible. I didn't get the Monkey just to keep it in my bag, that's for sure.


    I see you swapped weapons, that gives you quite the magic defence boosts. You do lose out on channeling though, which can be a drawback. Do you ever use Zooming Powder? (that channeling pot). I'm not sure how other people feel, but I am a little biased towards channeling and consider it somewhat important. Not a top priority of course, but still not something to ignore.
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  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yes i actually use zooming powder often and my ping is really good. I normally use them if i need to use a combo sequence quickly or finish off someone before thier charm c/d is over.

    As far as penetration goes from what i have seen in other games it is going to be the direct counter to % reductions adds unless pwi decides to make up another entirely different damage factor like they did with spirit. I am still amazed with this games formula calculations/applications for such an old game. If they had the pvp combat engine of terra and the need to actually aim skills for all classes i would go all out. PWE would dominate the f2p market even more. Im sure most casters would object since they would actually have to do more than tab but that's fine with me. It would add a bit more complexity to pw. Another idea to keep everyone happy they could implement the same targetting system that they have in swordsman online where youcan choose bewteen 3 types of targetting.

    With grudge strike it comes down to preference even though the attack rate reduction/- chan/ and range was very appealing.

    I always fight as if my pets are just extra skills. If they die they just go on a long c/d or short depending on the situation. lol i wish pets summoned as fast as they were stored.

    The charm debuff also has me really intrigued because it may possibly make some old skills viable.
  • eirghaneirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    this is interesting. I think a cleric also played with a phys reduction build but im too lazy to scour the forums to find the link. If i remember it was pretty vague anyway but would be neat if the cleric could expand on their ideas here. Maybe ill look for their name later.

    This would be a neat idea as a full support veno to balance out defenses without going LA or HA but money wise id have to agree you may as well just get r999 josd etc etc. Never underestimate puri proc.

    As far as basing your whole build and playstyle around demon ironwood. Well. Desdis right. A smart player in 1v1 will have ways to counter it. Its nice and fun im sure but one dimensional and limiting if that is your only ace.

    Still i agree a really neat idea. I like theorizing about weird builds and ways to pull it off (though its better if they are more budget friendly)
  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    In my defence since this build has never been attempted before(at least to my knowledge) on a veno how many people are going to know what to expect in order to defend against it?

    1. I also previously stated there are pretty viable ways to get around and bait the enemy into wasting thier denfenses. I listed 2...I have 8

    2. This build can do decent damage it just has high reduction on both ends. The ironwood factor is just a nice bonus i realized while preparing for penatration strategies. It's not like the build is unable to kill other people alone. Another thing to put into perspective in terms of gear. It is severely under geared gear in regard to r9's raw power but seemingly out performing r9 defensivlely with an effective way to take it out simultaneously. I can also carry and swap the ws wep and r8rr wep when on the offensive or defensive. Example if i have the enemy sealed in nova with amps going not too many things they can do especially if they wasted genie on a what they believed to have been a 1 shot proc attempt. I have seen plenty of high end pvpers carry thier r9 wep and a r8r wep for defence. Also with experience as a bm weapon swapping is not a difficult task. It would be easy to spike the damage in the event of a 1 shot proc.

    3. Since when was maxing out r9rr budget friendly?

    4. The new paralyze and its spammablity is ruining the effectiveness of purify spell. If you are disarmed puri also will not proc. Still good just not as good as it used to be.

    5. I am not going to post all aspects on how to use this build so it may be percieved to you as one dimensional. I posted to show a really good exploit with the game mechanics overall.(not only referring to ironwood here)
  • eirghaneirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
    edited May 2015


    In my defence since this build has never been attempted before(at least to my knowledge) on a veno how many people are going to know what to expect in order to defend against it?
    2. This build can do decent damage it just has high reduction on both ends. The ironwood factor is just a nice bonus i realized while preparing for penatration strategies. It's not like the build is unable to kill other people alone. Another thing to put into perspective in terms of gear. It is severely under geared gear in regard to r9's raw power but seemingly out performing r9 defensivlely with an effective way to take it out simultaneously…..
    My alt is a HA sage veno with a warsoul weapon who fights r9s, so, a similar idea. And while i do decent damage and tank well and have the surprise factor of people trying to kill me with phys damage i simply do not rival r9 in the least. Inevitably they figure out that mag damage is more effective (or learn my name or face) and learn ways around my defenses. This is why i was interested by your build because the defenses would be more balanced, however I assume it would be a similar situation, they would eventually figure it out. On the damage end while I do pretty decent damage my magic is gimped because of the HA stat build so that is another reason I was interested in your build. But I simply do not have the money to invest in that kind of build for an alt :)

    1. I also previously stated there are pretty viable ways to get around and bait the enemy into wasting thier denfenses. I listed 2...I have 8
    Baiting to waste defenses while a good strategy for any class or player doesnt change the aim of the playstyle which is to tank (or kite) and wait until you can proc the one skill and it sticks. I have pked many demon venos... Im sure demon venos all over are grabbing their pitch forks and garden hoes right now to rally at my door b:chuckle I say this as a seeker. And i would say the exact same thing to any seeker who depends solely on qpq of a sac slash debuff to a target. The strategy is one dimensional.

    There are at least some classes that will have more ways around demon ironwood proc than you will ever have time to bait out unless this veno build is absolutely totally unkillable. This is why demon venos still lose 1v1s. Otherwise they would effectively be unbeatable. And honestly the demon venos that depend solely on that strategy lose more often because there is only one thing their opponent will have to wait and watch for to assure victory. It is very dependable. So while a demon veno does win (mostly before their strategy is figured out), it is still only one circumstance in which they can or will win. But i am sure we can agree to disagree. Unless you are on sanctuary we would never be able to solve that debate.

    But I digress, i never meant to discuss demon veno game play tactics. Only the build.
    3. Since when was maxing out r9rr budget friendly?
    I never said r9rr was budget friendly (though now that you mention it it may be even more budget friendly than your calc) I said:
    eirghan wrote: »
    I like theorizing about weird builds and ways to pull it off (though its better if they are more budget friendly)
    I don’t really count r9rr as weird or original, i do count your build as weird and original, but not budget friendly. My point was merely that while it is weird and original and possibly effective, its an alternative route to what is, in my opinion, the same ends as r9rr costing about as much or more. The tanking damage vs escaping damage is debatable but there is no denying that this build must cost a similar amount.
    …I can also carry and swap the ws wep and r8rr wep when on the offensive or defensive. Example if i have the enemy sealed in nova with amps going not too many things they can do especially if they wasted genie on a what they believed to have been a 1 shot proc attempt. I have seen plenty of high end pvpers carry thier r9 wep and a r8r wep for defence….
    4. The new paralyze and its spammablity is ruining the effectiveness of purify spell. If you are disarmed puri also will not proc. Still good just not as good as it used to be….

    The weapon switch is a good point, but being sealed is basically the only time you will be disabled in a way that you can rely on it. The stun (and paralyze and disarm that you mentioned earlier) along with occult ice, bewitch etc etc etc etc etc will render you unable to swap your gear. It is easy to get caught in a bad situation so while effective you can’t always depend on a defensive weapon to survive being locked. Which is why I like a puri weapon in any circumstance. While paralyze is getting more spammable (and disarm) those are only two instances in which you are stuck and have to tank vs more CC than I can count on one hand that I could get caught without a defensive weapon to tank the damage. Having a weapon you can wear 100% (or 99.9%) of the time to be both beast mode and protected far outweighs a weapon switch situation in my opinion.

    If I could go back and get an r9rr weapon for my veno I probably would had I the money. But well perhaps if i get an OP card set rb2 like your calc I could tank better.

    Anyway, The boon of heavy armor on magic classes is the balancing factor you receive for defenses from your cards, titles, nuema and meridian. Since it's free, I think i'll stick with that xD
  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I understand your point of view now. What i was trying to explain is my build can still dish out good damage while effectively diminishing the oppositions output so i am able to fight as a normal veno. However if i were to come across an opponent that is incredibly op that is when i would swap to my other tactics. 0 def is not the ace btwb:laugh but im definately not posting my trump cards on the forums. The venomancer class's potential is massive. Same grade of complexity as the duskblade if you think outside the box.

    In a 1v1 i highly doubt the average player is going to be able to figure out exactly what is going on with the build and adapt. If they had prior knowledge using desdi's build as an example. She would need 3 consecutive crits in conjunction with myriad+amps to kill the veno. Her max damage output as a full magic r9rr veno 3spark mind break nova only deals 10.3k crit. That is a 5 spark combo for a lilttle over half my hp pool. 3 sparks also tend to create openings unless ur a sin and can easily avoid CC.

    I also do not think you saw the revamp of the build based on your comments. The upgrade reduces both magic and physical damage. It will be a long road but definately worth investing.

    http://mypers.pw/1.8/#134725/131514
  • eirghaneirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I wont deny it's really good but that link there shows desdi debuffed without NW buffs, while the r8r veno is buffed with fox form, NW buffs and wind shield.

    You can see that even with extremely OP engraves like there are on that ring (double physical def? double magic? holy ****!) you are still lacking a bit of defenses on an r9rr, and that is already being fully jaded. Not to mention you somehow got wings, base helm and r9 belt as well. At that point (r9 rep) you would be better off with an r9r ring i think. If you make the match more even on gear level for accessories and shards r9 would still blow it out of the water unfortunately. I beefed up dedi's gear and did a few tests to reflect a better end game match (i think her other veno is end game iirc) and same thing. I would share the calcs but at work so can't really take the time to adjust everything, but you can do a test without even playing with desdi's gear.

    Give desdi NW buff, take off the amp from extreme poison, then take off the fox form buff from r8r veno and windshield.

    Desdi crit your r8r veno for 34k. Rip.

    You crit her with 1200. GG.

    (Ignoring the cost for jades) The rerolls, engraves etc, it is kind of like opening packs for cards. totally random and unquantifiable for cost, while the cost of GSTs, MOGs, exclusive shards and incomps are all somewhat farmable and very quantifiable.

    Your build is super OP with all of the bells and whistles but some of that stuff I dont even have on my main b:shocked

    If you want to sponsor me i'd try it though :D
  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    not sure why but when i try to post desdi's build on the forums it keeps removing the buffs. I do the calcs with the same buffs across the board as well as w/o.
  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I even did a calc with desdi having full diety at 173 attack lvl heaven rager helm + wings and my build with cloud charger instead with a myriad proc considering she is sage and can not get the same debuff results as a demon ironwood no buffs no fox form on either build. No buffs no amps nothing flat damage.

    Desdi takes 13861-15859 non crit
    Desdi deals with above stats 8432-9619 non crit with ring double pdef removed from my ring.

    I do not think you understand that having higher def does not always translate to taking less damage. That is the entire idea behind a reduction build.

    I wish i could find someway to post it because saving doesnt seem to be doing anything. when i try to post.
  • eirghaneirghan Posts: 1,912 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I even did a calc with desdi having full diety at 173 attack lvl heaven rager helm + wings and my build with cloud charger instead with a myriad proc considering she is sage and can not get the same debuff results as a demon ironwood no buffs no fox form on either build. No buffs no amps nothing flat damage.

    Desdi takes 13861-15859 non crit
    Desdi deals with above stats 8432-9619 non crit with ring double pdef removed from my ring.

    Desdi is actually demon. Her end game veno is sage. But the one we are comparing against (Incomparable citrine shards +10) is demon.

    I'm not really into diety shards but I get your point for the damage she does to you. But is that with a physical attack?

    I did my own test with desdi's calc the way it is and yours the way it is, Just removing all buffs and debuffs (except I left fox on for you)



    Desdi takes 1128-1160 damage. Critical hit 2256-2320 damage. (maelific crush)
    Desdi deals 1939-2338 damage. Critical hit 3490-4208 damage. (ironwood)


    So lets say everyone gets mid range damage, no charms, no pots, no crits. and you somehow have endless sparks to do maelific and you each have no cooldown (I chose for the nice add to phys attack since you're in fox tanking damage but we could do this with any skill i guess)


    Your average damage is: 1144 with maelific
    18721hp / 1144 damage = 16.36 attacks before you can kill her

    Desdi's average damage is: 2138 with ironwood
    18266hp / 2138 damage = 8.54 attacks before she can kill you




    Lets do another one with you in human form theoretically trying to proc a demon ironwood. I'll take you out of fox and you guys are throwing ironwood back and forth. Lets go:


    Desdi takes 1842-2225 damage. Critical hit 3684-4450 damage. (Ironwood)
    Desdi deals 1939-2338 damage. Critical hit 3490-4208 damage. (Ironwood)


    Your average damage is: 2033.5 with ironwood
    18721hp / 2033.5 damage = 9.2 attacks before you can kill her

    Desdi's average damage is: 2138 with ironwood
    18266hp / 2138 damage = 8.54 attacks before she can kill you



    So in the end, assuming that channel is still the same etc. (I'm too lazy to get into the channel difference, ping and so on...) r8r could win with higher refines.... Or more skilled use of genies/skills/apoth etc. but you by far outgear the desdi i'm testing on... And you guys are both going for a proc so.... Good Luck, may the 10% proc rate ever be in your favour b:shockedb:shockedb:shocked

  • mistressmuertamistressmuerta Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Im glad you went back and redid your calc. If we stood there going blow for blow then yes desdi would win but your last statement sums everything up it would all boil down to more skilled use of genies/skills/apoth etc and who procs who first w/o any counter.
  • QueNa - SanctuaryQueNa - Sanctuary Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    So what I get out of this discussion is that muerta and Desdi going at it together is 50/50. Except that in this case Desdi's build is cheaper (too lazy to figure the cost of each). Even if you remove all the +12s from Desdi the builds are pretty similar (at least vs. each other) but makes Desdi's build more cheaper. Remove the cape/helm engrave which require golden coin, makes each others damage almost the same and Desdi's build again more cheaper.

    All this no buffs, human form. Flat damage, myriad magic proc damage, 0pdef+AA combo. All damage is similar against each other but Desdi's build is cheaper.

    And this is why most people just get R9rr +10. It's affordable well not for everyone but but lots of people can get a R9rr +10 (refine aids up to +8 or something) with Incomparables (farm weeklies) or Morai shards and go. Getting 700-800 spirit is not too hard, just need a bit of luck (doesn't necessarily require a set, depends on what cards you get). If pure magic too squishy they just add some Vit.



    So idk, I basically think you can get similar results as the OP's build for cheaper, and if you have the budget you can just further boost your R9rr set. For OP, your idea is cool i just don't think its practical or cost effective but if you want to do it, more power to you. Make videos.


    Ironwood chance is 20% btw not 10%... well still low I guess lol.
    Lurking forums for years sometimes posting.
  • Eirghan - SanctuaryEirghan - Sanctuary Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    bah youre right. Idk how to demon veno b:surrender
    ♥ Eirghan ♥ Sage Seeker ♥ 105x3 ♥
    ♥ Current Gear: mypers.pw/1.8/#140780/ ♥
  • Satyrion - SanctuarySatyrion - Sanctuary Posts: 255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I wonder if anybody ever tried to aim for a r8r weapon purify spell and full defense level adds. r8rr weapon could actually get up to +20 defense level with purify spell. Well, with some serious luck of course.

    I was thinking about how this build would do versus and/or compared a r999 with equal refines, gems, cards, etc. The build is probably fun, personally I think you would have to do too many sacrifices in gain for... well, not that much from what I have seen so far..
    If you really are going to do this build and success in getting such rolls, please record when you PvP b:thanks Theory is one thing, but the real deal is another.

    I like how JoSD was mentioned useless (or at least wont always save you) against ironwood proc+arcane antinomy while the physical damage reduction seems the same.

    For you Desdi, the Destroyer belt requires 3x G16 warsong belts and 3x G16 Jungle belts + some coin fee as far I remember.
    The difference between a G16 warsong belt and Destroyer is +5 attack level, +1% crit and +30 HP, with a bit higher refine rate. For quite a price...
    youtube.com/user/Cebloon
    ~ not that there is that much to see (yet?)
  • Mrvate - Heavens TearMrvate - Heavens Tear Posts: 406 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I wonder if anybody ever tried to aim for a r8r weapon purify spell and full defense level adds. r8rr weapon could actually get up to +20 defense level with purify spell. Well, with some serious luck of course.

    Its worth noting that the r8r puri proc is not the same as r9r puri proc. Although it is not well shown the exact proc rates, I remember some numbers being about half the rate as r9.

    I don't know if this holds true to r8rr, or if they give it the better proc. But my guess would be its going to have the same rate as r8r.
  • Eirghan - SanctuaryEirghan - Sanctuary Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited May 2015

    I like how JoSD was mentioned useless (or at least wont always save you) against ironwood proc+arcane antinomy while the physical damage reduction seems the same.

    For you Desdi, the Destroyer belt requires 3x G16 warsong belts and 3x G16 Jungle belts + some coin fee as far I remember.
    The difference between a G16 warsong belt and Destroyer is +5 attack level, +1% crit and +30 HP, with a bit higher refine rate. For quite a price...

    Yes i would at least like to semi-contest this theory. I have high defenses and hp as it is but i was able to tank a demon ironwood debuff with a defense weapon on (gives me something like 125 defense levels) whether or not those levels saved me or not or it was due to some other stat i am not sure, but was pretty badass being able to qpq that debuff back b:dirty

    I also am working on a destroyer belt for my alt. On sanctuary at least it really is not worth it. I am farming it more for fun and to say i did i guess.... I am about 2/3 of the way with warsong inscriptions. But the jungle stones alone are going to be more than a few hundred million. The r9 for cost per effectiveness is a better deal, but no denying fully refined could be a sweet ornament for any class that worries more about living longer than high damage. If i ever get there I'll let you know how much it cost me in all. So far i have spent almost 100m just in manu fees at the forge for the warsong belts...
    ♥ Eirghan ♥ Sage Seeker ♥ 105x3 ♥
    ♥ Current Gear: mypers.pw/1.8/#140780/ ♥
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Suddenly I've become a test victim. b:shocked

    I knew the requirements for making the Destroyer belt, but I don't know the overall cost of it, and I am too lazy to search prices and make a guess. I was hoping someone else had done it xD I'd be really curious to know if you ever manage to make one, Eirghan.

    Regarding Ironwood and Arcane Antinomy... Arcane Antinomy's damage is based on your attack (base attack + weapon damage if I remember well) and Mana. I've survived this combo a couple of times, not because of a defence charm, but because the Demon Venomancer who performed it had low(ish) magic attack. I'm not sure about their MP though. This is also something for Vit. build Demons to keep in mind as they have lower attack and MP too.

    I'm not saying the combo isn't dangerous even on Venomancers with lower attack/MP though, but it's something to keep in mind (for the lurkers out there, I know you're reading this!). This is also not necessarily related to Eirghan's comment earlier. I just happened to remember this because of it.

    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Satyrion - SanctuarySatyrion - Sanctuary Posts: 255 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    If warsoul mats are crafted from NW forges:

    G16 warsong belt
    192,600,000 coins
    360 warsong inscriptions
    108 supply tokens

    Destroyer
    1,063,800,000 coins
    1080 Warsong Inscriptions
    324 supply token
    if Jungle Stones are bought for 3mil each
    Its worth noting that the r8r puri proc is not the same as r9r puri proc. Although it is not well shown the exact proc rates, I remember some numbers being about half the rate as r9.

    I don't know if this holds true to r8rr, or if they give it the better proc. But my guess would be its going to have the same rate as r8r.

    I know its a lower proc rate, but I wouldnt say its worth nothing. b:surrender
    When I get my r8rr weapon (I guess I'm about 20% complete) I will test it out for r8rr... well, if I even get purify spell.
    youtube.com/user/Cebloon
    ~ not that there is that much to see (yet?)
  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited May 2015
    (for the lurkers out there, I know you're reading this!).

    WHO TOLD YOU?! b:shocked
    (Insert fancy image here)
    image
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    If warsoul mats are crafted from NW forges:

    G16 warsong belt
    192,600,000 coins
    360 warsong inscriptions
    108 supply tokens

    Destroyer
    1,063,800,000 coins
    1080 Warsong Inscriptions
    324 supply token
    if Jungle Stones are bought for 3mil each

    Thanks for going through the trouble. Well, it is indeed quite pricey o.o

    WHO TOLD YOU?! b:shocked

    b:shy
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
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