PWI Balance

eland20

http://www.img-host.de/bild.php/54469,201503280239437XIEF.jpg

b:faintb:beatenup

Mosz - Heavens Tear

eland20 wrote: »

http://www.img-host.de/bild.php/54469,201503280239437XIEF.jpg

b:faintb:beatenup

1.8k personal credits? ahem.....

eland20

Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

1.8k personal credits? ahem.....

yes thats what you get when you are a noob and do 10 damage on other while receiving 100k hits

Keisari - Raging Tide

"GANK LIGHT!" much on your server's WC?b:chuckle

Titoto - Raging Tide

Im curious about your gear and this whole balance thing you're talking about. Are you even Rb? and what is ur spirit? There must be some pretty hardcore people on ur server.

opkossy

eland20 wrote: »

yes thats what you get when you are a noob and do 10 damage on other while receiving 100k hits

I highlighted the source of your issue. Even post New Horizons genuine low levels who aren't twinked out the wazoo can do okay in NW.... if the person behind the character knows the game very well and doesn't get in over their heads.

As for the map, yeah that's what happens when you let a nation get away with that. People tend to be blind to the obvious and only scramble to stop it near the end when it's already too late (if they bother at all). That has less to do with balance and more to do with how people are though. b:chuckle

eland20

OPKossy wrote: »

I highlighted the source of your issue. Even post New Horizons genuine low levels who aren't twinked out the wazoo can do okay in NW.... if the person behind the character knows the game very well and doesn't get in over their heads.

Yes i am a noob gear wise.
i used a level 101 none rb BM with aps armor and g16 weapons.
I strongly disagree with you about that someone with normal armor can compete with r9rr,
if you really beleive what you saying then i have to think that you didnt play in the last 2 years.

OPKossy wrote: »

As for the map, yeah that's what happens when you let a nation get away with that. People tend to be blind to the obvious and only scramble to stop it near the end when it's already too late (if they bother at all). That has less to do with balance and more to do with how people are though. b:chuckle

I also disagree here with you.
As you can see 2 nations are struggeling. and the top nation got 114 points more than the second place nation. and the second nation only got big because they profit from the first place nations domination.

dark nation got 6 more people but only half of the points of frost.
yes it can be that there are many alts who dont really play in all the other nations. but then again it seems bad balanced for the left over real players.

but anyway, this would not be possible if there would be a balance between r9rr and g16.
but the truth is also, that the new passive skills and the new spirit attribute give all old players a huge advantage about the new players. which make pwi much less attractive for the new players who just get ***** in nations wars even if they understand their own character.

but nevermind, none old player will agree with me and i still think i am right. guess its pointless to argue.

Poopinpanto - Heavens Tear

Yeah your right we don't care because most of us have farmed or cashed for the stuff.And asking for balance between r9 and g16,good luck because your kinda like asking to make a racing motor bike go the same speed as a bicycle.

But yeah the NW numbers do look pathetic.NW should have been designed as a server vs server competition or have people join another order or have it a random order from some kinda quest to where you only join fire,light,dark and whatever else everytime you do NW.

bleh whocares I only do NW when I need to do it,wich is like maybe 1 time a month.

Zoldi - Morai

May I ask from which server comes this screenshot ? There seems to be so few people attending, I guess most lands are empty, right ?

sinithsky

My barb is G16 +4-5 on armor and no refine on weapon, and i can still hold my own well enough to get 12-16k credit per NW. my cleric is only S2 +4 and manages 8k on a low average. Sin is APS build no refines and makes same points as cleric. Also i hardly ever use Jones or O'malleys blessing. even if your outgeared you do get points for dying.
The trick to make dying alot an advantage to get more points in NW is look for battles with more Pk in it as that will result in more points in the end, or if you are lucky enough to find one, go for a battle you know there wont be any enemies coming into cause it's blocked and attempt to solo it. Crystals or Capture the flag are good choices for the latter and i have made over 1k points in battles i soloed, but if you die alot you can make anywhere from 500 to over 1k points in battles with lots of pk in it.
the other factor in points and your ranking in the battle is determined by your Soulforce. to get more soulforce refine your gear.
hope this helps

opkossy

eland20 wrote: »

Yes i am a noob gear wise.
i used a level 101 none rb BM with aps armor and g16 weapons.
I strongly disagree with you about that someone with normal armor can compete with r9rr,
if you really beleive what you saying then i have to think that you didnt play in the last 2 years.

You notice how I mentioned post the recent expansion and actual LOW LEVELS in my post? That's because I still NW on sub-100 non RB characters and the lowest I'll get is 5k credits... if I join halfway through the NW, get in a bad nation, and decide I don't feel like trying much.

You're not gonna compete with endgame players blow for blow when you aren't endgame yourself... but that should be extraordinarily obvious to anyone using common sense. If you're going to attempt that, then you're already starting off on the wrong foot unless you're doing it just for the fun of it. On the other hand, if you're doing it just for fun you aren't going to expect to compete blow for blow and wouldn't consider failing to do so as a balance problem.

I also disagree here with you.
As you can see 2 nations are struggeling. and the top nation got 114 points more than the second place nation. and the second nation only got big because they profit from the first place nations domination.

... Your very description of what the map shows serves to support my point. Tell me, how many people tried to go after the first place nation early and at the middle-ish times? How many were more content to beat back nations that were already losing or take advantage of first place to get themselves in a decent position? People being people is one of the biggest things letting one nation dominate such large chunks of the map. And that's just assuming the most ideal scenarios. When you factor in the extra **** folks do nowadays (AFK alts, ignoring map objectives, refusing to play as a team, etc etc) it's no wonder that even NWs are an exception rather than the norm.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

OPKossy wrote: »

You notice how I mentioned post the recent expansion and actual LOW LEVELS in my post? That's because I still NW on sub-100 non RB characters and the lowest I'll get is 5k credits... if I join halfway through the NW, get in a bad nation, and decide I don't feel like trying much.

You're not gonna compete with endgame players blow for blow when you aren't endgame yourself... but that should be extraordinarily obvious to anyone using common sense. If you're going to attempt that, then you're already starting off on the wrong foot unless you're doing it just for the fun of it. On the other hand, if you're doing it just for fun you aren't going to expect to compete blow for blow and wouldn't consider failing to do so as a balance problem.
...

Yep, I have a non-RB Psy that's around level 70. Mostly I go into the flag maps, stay on the edges, and pick off people running away from someone else. b:chuckle

Usually get around 9k credits on her, just wish I was awake more often for NW.

eland20

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

May I ask from which server comes this screenshot ? There seems to be so few people attending, I guess most lands are empty, right ?

Harshlands

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

eland20 wrote: »

Yes i am a noob gear wise.
i used a level 101 none rb BM with aps armor and g16 weapons.
I strongly disagree with you about that someone with normal armor can compete with r9rr,
if you really beleive what you saying then i have to think that you didnt play in the last 2 years.

The problem is certain classes do fair a hell of a lot better than others do in the exact same gear. (Skills available, etc) - Though in the end it is true that each class can get decent personal credits if played right, I know I could get a decent 7kish personal credits on my bm when I did play it in nw.

One thing that I realize with my bm that I know I did NOT need to do with ANY other class despite being in similar gear... is that I didn't have to use apo for chi, and defenses just to get near every once in a while and to actually be able to do something other than just die as soon as my apo wears off due to not having any chi due to the fact I used defense apo to get near.

Obviously as OPK said we shouldn't expect to do as well as the r9rr's in rubbish gear, that still doesn't change the fact that the bm class is a difficult class to master, and having to use apo for both chi, and defense just isn't good at all, not when others can get away with just apo for defenses/chi. (Even with the primal update and all the sweet skills they got, getting chi can still be a bit of an issue.)

To make matters worse I played it during a time where purify proc --->HAD <---(keyword here!) erased everything a bm did, and giving how difficult it was to play a bm/maintain chi in mass pvp... it made that proc a insanely annoying thing to deal with/being on a bm quite unbearable hell it still can erase our debuffs <</all of our normal stuns. ;/ - Though forunately there are more and more ways of combating that pesky *** proc these days/there was one way back then, but it was still brutal being on a bm.


--

Either way you can either tough it out on your bm or do what a significant number of bms did during that time, and reroll to a different class, fortunately that wasn't too difficult for me, as I had another char/account with similar gear, that I enjoyed much more for nw. (Though it still frustrates me to no end that I left behind my favorite class before nw came out/the proc became mainstream.. hell it still is my favorite class for pve purposes.) Hell I still don't see many bms in nw even these days, but meh, same can be said of veno's/wizards.

eeepsilon

On the server I play it is usually flame the victim on NW.

One thing that people should understant is that is not the rrr9 gear the only factor to be considered in these cases. I prefer to call it ''end game gear'' factor

On my server I usually see a map like the one on the picture when all those TW endgame squads end up in one or two nations.

Most of the time those End game gear tw players go to nw on squads, they usually say things like they go solo but thats no true. They not only have good gear but also are organized.


It is true that a lot of skill and a bit of brute force (like 30 or 40 people on average rrr9 or good refined g16) can actually beat one of those squads.

But most of the time what you will see is 5 to 10 end game people beating 20 or more undergeared and disorganized players, if you add to that all the afk alts...

About getting NW tokens, is not really hard, even if you are undergeared and unskilled, you can just basically:
- go to to some wars with no enemies and take the flag on those
- do bridge
- go to a some of the crystal contest in wich your nation have advantage or no enemies
- be on 3 or more wins
- have a few minutes of battle time (or it was fighting time?) you can atk a npc for this
- once you have the requirements to even get tokens you just go and jump from one batle to another
- and you join some war with a lot of stronger enemies (lots of enemy soulforce is more points I think)

Now getting Tokens is one thing but making a nation win is something completely different.

Even if some people say to me that is all about strategy and knowing your class, there is a limit to that statement.
If you are on a nation with a lot of undergeared people, afk alts and just a few rrr9s/g16 versus a nation that have all the TW squads there is not much you can do..

Zoldi - Morai

eeepsilon wrote: »

Now getting Tokens is one thing but making a nation win is something completely different.

Exactly. And there are even people that don't care about their personal credits but don't care about their nation as well.
People always talk about gears but you could have a full R9.3 squad in your nation that don't care about their nation and the win. In which case it's better to have G16 people instead.
(Not implying gears is not a factor at all though)

eeepsilon

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

Exactly. And there are even people that don't care about their personal credits but don't care about their nation as well.
People always talk about gears but you could have a full R9.3 squad in your nation that don't care about their nation and the win. In which case it's better to have G16 people instead.
(Not implying gears is not a factor at all though)

Agree, in fact I've been in those situations, two that I remember that were very funny:

Me and 15 more players of which many were rrr9 or g16 versus 10 people. From those ten enemies only 3 or 4 were a real threat. All the players on my side were more focused on spawmkilling than carry flag or protecting it. So I go and grab flag.

Just when I'm about half way, enemy barb start chasing me, I ask for help several times but no one help. I manage to deliver the flag but got killed just one second after.

Back at center People on my side keep killing and they dont even look for flag. The same barb that killed me go and take flag at mid and all ignore him while me and a low level wizard atempt to stop him.
Barb one shot us, wizard enrage and scream: ''KILL THE $%&#@ FLAG YOU IMBECILES b:angry!!!!'' again all keep doing their thing and ignore the barb. Just about alf the way, a rrr9 cleric from wizard's faction enter the battle and sleep barb, we ask for help but nothing b:laugh
Barb 2 shot the cleric, 1 shot me and wizard and deliver flag.
After that an enemy end game squad join the battle (archer, cleric and 2 sins)
They one shot everything including our rrr9s that were just trolling during all the time, and deliver flag b:laugh

The second was similar: 20 people on my side versus 15 or so enemies. On my side there was this end game TW squad including the leader of their faction. While they spawm kill and troll (some of them were on autoculti lol), a tt 80 or tt90 enemy seeker grab flag and a rrr9 end game archer covers him. The only ones trying to stop them are me (g16 archer), a rrr9 not end game veno and a low level barb.

The archer one shot the 3 of us and the seeker deliver the flag 2 times b:laugh.
The TW squad did not even attempt to stop him.

eland20

i am struggling between the fact that rank9 players achieved something for a reason and want to have this advantage and the Wish that a competition like Nation Wars would give everyone a fair chance no matter of armor.

but the truth is, that the endgame people will get most of the rewards which is funny because they probably dont need it anymore but to sell it.

due this fact that endgame players have this high advantage, they can actually farm all necessary materials and then just sell it. while every new player will find it much easier to just buy the material if they can, to avoid the struggle of the competitions.

so i see that old players want this advantage but i also see how less attractive pwi for new people this way is.

i personally would like it if every participant of such a competition would get a standard armor setup for just the event. everyone start with same setup and everyone has a fair chance this way. but i am also aware of the fact that the reason to farm rank9 armor will be gone if everything would be fair for all. i am not sure how to solve it but i wish we could show new people how much fun the game can be and not just keep them dead for 2 hours during a event.

Mosz - Heavens Tear

eland20 wrote: »

...

but the truth is, that the endgame people will get most of the rewards which is funny because they probably dont need it anymore but to sell it. ...

realize if those end game players didnt wanna **** around and pk and just sell off their tokens then the tokens would be much more expensive/scare to buy

if ya calculate the charm, apo, pot cost those end game players go through compared to what theyre selling the tokens for well those non end game players are really getting quite a deal

mulier

if the op squads didnt join tw - all otehr would get more tokens - and token price would be less --- cause majority of tokens would not be paid by chamrs and apot .... at least in my logic

Joe - Morai

A level 101 BM, rb or not, mhm:

Give him 5-10 Charger Orbs.

Watch out for Capture the flag territories with 0 enemies. Get the flag twice to the goal. Points secured.

The rest you do is just going in a Ter. and out -> into the next and out -> and so on. Take care to get into as many dif territories as possible. This way you will get at least 10k personal credit. On any Class, server, nation, whatsoever.

That's why Kossy was right about highlighting the "noob", it is not gear wise, you just lack basic understandin of NW mechanics. With your gears you are mostly useless fight-wise cept if you would just go for 1-time stuns with your BM with an insta-death right after. That could surely make an impact but will grant you little to no personal credit. Jump, Jump. That's all you need to do.

bloodedone87

Sometimes I dont understand NW mechanics at all.
Exemple: I go in a territory battle., I stay there all the fight, Sometimes i get to kill someone( weaker than me ofcb:chuckle) But at the end I make 100-150 points, sometimes when there are no enemies i end up with lower than 100.
But than I go into another territory, I enter there, after 2-3 seconds get the message: Victory or Defeated and get 300-400 points.
I dont understand why I am getting more points on a territory were I stayed 2-3 seconds than on a territory where i stayed all battle.b:puzzled

PatsyBanger - Archosaur

I don't know if your low scores are due to low gear or if you just are not putting in the effort. still i have to agree that the nw's tend to be one sided in many cases. A lot of people team up with rrr99's and once in invite 9 more rrr9's then again etc.. Lower gear is kind of left to fend for themself on the luck of the draw and how much they are willing to fight.I personally wish they would not allow people to team until after they are in the instance and that would equal out the wars quite a bit.

iperen

PatsyBanger - Archosaur wrote: »

I personally wish they would not allow people to team until after they are in the instance and that would equal out the wars quite a bit.

I doubt that tbh. You will still have the disparity that the distribution system can't take into account. The system just sees gear and distribute accordingly, but in reality they are characters that can be all from 0-interest for the nation (afk-alts) to very helpfull guys with plenty of charger orbs, charms and all that even without being in a team. I would prefer if they did something about afk-alts and multi-client entering rather then disable friends to play together. It's horrible to be in a 30 vs 9, that you actually can win or draw out even though the 9 is a strong team, that ends up to be a 10ish vs 9 because you're with afk alts that just wack the npc.

Evryn - Morai

OPKossy wrote: »

I highlighted the source of your issue. Even post New Horizons genuine low levels who aren't twinked out the wazoo can do okay in NW.... if the person behind the character knows the game very well and doesn't get in over their heads.

As for the map, yeah that's what happens when you let a nation get away with that. People tend to be blind to the obvious and only scramble to stop it near the end when it's already too late (if they bother at all). That has less to do with balance and more to do with how people are though. b:chuckle

Not true anymore. If a house gets decimated, folk who multi tend to focus on the winning team instead, You see the membership of the losing house drop off sharply after some 20 minutes - and a lot of those who are still in there, just maphop for some points. Can't say I blame anyone for that kind of behaviour. Getting those 100k crits makes actually fighting pointless, which reduces the NW to a "how to get as many tokens as possible" bout - which for a lower geared toon means maphopping. At least on Morai. Dunno how it is on other servers.