HA/AA vs LA for "balanced"veno revisited

sailormoon4ever
sailormoon4ever Posts: 15 Arc User
edited January 2015 in Venomancer
From what I've read, people are recommending to stay away from LA because an HA/AA combo provides better "balanced" mag/phys defense than LA. Is this still true with set def/warding/phys-reduction bonuses (not to mention atk/slaying bonuses though that has nothing to do with defense)?

When you use HA/AA combo you miss out on a lot of these bonuses. I've been playing LA veno and was initially thinking of switching to HA (which also means HA/AA) during my 1st reawakening. But now I'm not so sure. Any thoughts/opinions on this?
Post edited by sailormoon4ever on

Comments

  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    How about 2 parts of each to get 3x the HP bonus from 2 setpieces ? Might be interesting when youre low refined. Probably full AA is the best though, but ye its boring to do what everyone else does :)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • sailormoon4ever
    sailormoon4ever Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    How about 2 parts of each to get 3x the HP bonus from 2 setpieces ? Might be interesting when youre low refined. Probably full AA is the best though, but ye its boring to do what everyone else does :)

    What HP set bonuses are you talking about? Can you give names of armor or links to pwdatabase so I can look it up? I'm still a novice/newbie and the set bonuses I was talking about are from things I've seen on the lv80 "pill" set (yeah I'm a pill baby! ... well not entirely but I got a big boost from it) and morai 95 gear. I've tried to find higher level set gear but don't know names to look up.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Awakened Archangels (AA)
    Awakened Lionhearts (HA)
    Awakened Ashuras (LA)

    They are the G16 sets that pretty much everyone uses when they find R9 too expensive.
    All of them give a HP bonus for using 2 set parts, 15 defence levels for 5 parts and 20 attack levels for 6 parts.

    note that out of the 6 parts, the helm and cape do not have mdef and pdef on them so those are the best to use LA then.

    It is not simple to compare the different options. It is not only about the set bonusses and the mdef , pdef on all the items. Also do the items all give you extra stat points where the HAs will give mostly str (useless for you since you need the str to equip them in the first place) the LAs will give mostly dex (useless too) and the AAs give mostly magic.

    All these items can be made from TT base items or lunar base items. The TT path leads to binding G16 gear, the lunar to non binding. If you are to experiment with this, i think it is wise to use lunar items so that you can trade them if at a later point you decide for a different choise.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • sailormoon4ever
    sailormoon4ever Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Thx for info on the armor sets. :)
    It is not simple to compare the different options.

    I understand. One of the reasons I made this thread was because all the past discussions I've read about HA/AA vs LA focuses only on the mag/phys defense aspect. Based on that alone, I can see why HA/AA comes out ahead. But with all these set bonuses involved (and the armor stats you mentioned), the comparison is not so simple.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Nope, but im afraid a forum post isnt really going to help all that much. Here people usually just defend their own choise instead of trying to learn truth :)

    I would advise you to experiment with this: http://pwcalc.com/
    It is a bit outdated though and does not count for nuemas, war avatars etc. You can edit your own item (the blessing for example) to compensate for those factors.

    And practical experimentation is of course also nice. As said, use tradable gear for this and you can restat when you rebirth. So this experimentation doesnt need to cost you much.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • sailormoon4ever
    sailormoon4ever Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And practical experimentation is of course also nice. As said, use tradable gear for this and you can restat when you rebirth. So this experimentation doesnt need to cost you much.

    Good advice. :) Unfortunately Lunar is extremely expensive. I wanted to make a lunar based G15 weapon but ended up buying a TT based one for a fraction of what it cost to make the lunar. I figure it'll cost me around 100 mil to make a G15 lunar from scratch. (Yes I can farm it for "free", but the mats could be sold for 100 mil so its still 100 mil :b:shocked ) I ended up buying a TT based G15 for 30 mil. I haven't equipped it yet, but I think I'll prob end up using it. b:surrender
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The price difference shouldnt be that big.

    On archosaur, it was like 40m for TT and 50m for lunar armor parts 2 months ago. Weapons pretty much the same. Some people may ask rediculous prices for lunar mats, but that is not the real value i think.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • sailormoon4ever
    sailormoon4ever Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The price difference shouldnt be that big.

    On archosaur, it was like 40m for TT and 50m for lunar armor parts 2 months ago. After all, most of the process is exactly the same (cannies to make G15 and then making the G16) Its only the relatively cheap base item that is different.

    Well on sanc, there's somebody selling a ton of TT based magic weapons for around 30 mil. He/she listed like 7 in AH yesterday and I saw his/her shop with another dozen or so in it. I also regularly see others selling TT based G15s. I have yet to find a single lunar G15 magic weapon for sale in the 2 weeks I've been looking. I decided to make the lunar G15 weapon from scratch and was appalled by the prices on the mats. Empire's Back Image for example was going for 14 mil (you need 4 of those) at catshops; you can buy cheaper from Mysterious Merchant for like 10 mil + another mil for the chips. There's only 1 rapture catshop at nirv and he/she sells for 89k each, so that's like 22 mil for the raptures. I worked out all the mats and it comes out to around 90-100 mil. b:angry b:cry b:shutup
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Well on sanc, there's somebody selling a ton of TT based magic weapons for around 30 mil. He/she listed like 7 in AH yesterday and I saw his/her shop with another dozen or so in it. I also regularly see others selling TT based G15s. I have yet to find a single lunar G15 magic weapon for sale in the 2 weeks I've been looking. I decided to make the lunar G15 weapon from scratch and was appalled by the prices on the mats. Empire's Back Image for example was going for 14 mil (you need 4 of those) at catshops; you can buy cheaper from Mysterious Merchant for like 10 mil + another mil for the chips. There's only 1 rapture catshop at nirv and he/she sells for 89k each, so that's like 22 mil for the raptures. I worked out all the mats and it comes out to around 90-100 mil. b:angry b:cry b:shutup

    yes there is much more supply of TT items. The weapon isnt the biggest worry though since i assume you go with a magic weapon anyway, so its not so bad if this is binding.

    Back images for 14m is just a joke. Players should sell those for 8m or so. You need to realise than about 2/3s of the sellers are idiots who ask a way too high price. They think they are going to get rich that way, not realising they wont sell a thing and are wasting their time. That guy selling TT items is the smart guy. While everyone is waiting months to sell their TT mats (even at 8m it is difficult selling your back images) he simply made items and sells them for a price that will conquer the market.

    And as a buyer, you simply need to ignore those 2/3s and often be a little patient until you find the right deals. Granted, lunar mats arent traded a lot and it could take a while before you find the right seller.

    The cannies or raptures as well as the proces of turning G15 into G16 is the same for both lunar and TT. The price difference comes only from the diffeent G12 or G13 items. For the body armor you should find that there is no difference in cost of making the TT vs lunar. The other armors there is a small difference.
    For the raps and cannies go check archo north right after NW. Thats when many raps and cannies are traded for the best prices.

    So why do people even make TT body armors ? (and to a lesser extend the other armors ) Because people dont think, they just do what everyone else does.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The rule of thumb is to play whatever you like and whatever makes you happy. It's also not a big deal in PvE anymore, especially when you get some decent gear like G15 Morai or G16 Nirvana that are good enough for just about everything PvE-related.

    Also, are you PvE only or do you plan to do PvP? If yes to PvP, how much of it are you even planning to do?


    But the usual reasons people avoid LA are:
    - Weaker overall defences than AA or HA (or HA/AA). The weaknesses of each can be compensated with a set of decent ornaments.

    - LA and AA can have similar HP, depending on refines. The AA cape refines like the LA one so it contributes to it. At least as far as G16 Nirvana is concerned. There's also the AA Vit. build where the HP/defence can surpass the LA while still having higher base damage (unless it's full Vit, minimum magic I think).

    - Dex increases neither your magic nor your physical damage (Human/Fox). It increases your Crit.Rate yes but.. with the Primal Passives you can get a free 10% Crit. Though it does take a long time to gather blood, get Sky levels and level the passives up. The thing to consider is that an increase of 5% Crit to 15% is usually more significant than an increase of 10% to 20%. Overall point: the difference in Crit isn't as huge of a factor anymore, in my opinion anyway.




    There is a post I made once that is a little outdated but it still has some good information on it if you feel like reading. You can find it here. Go to the section of "Average player build scenario".

    There are some different builds on PWCalc that you can compare to each other. They aren't absolute of course as there are many options for different ornaments, stats (I only used 100 Vit but you can use much more). All the builds are G16 Nirvana.

    It may not reflect what you can afford but it should give you a little bit of an idea on how the builds compare I guess.




    And with that said, in the end do whatever you feel like doing really. You can experiment if you feel like it, it's up to you. Though I personally don't like LA builds, I don't think they are a terrible build to have and if it makes you happy or you enjoy it, go for it. Venomancers are versatile and can work with many builds.
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  • sailormoon4ever
    sailormoon4ever Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited January 2015

    But the usual reasons people avoid LA are:
    - Weaker overall defences than AA or HA (or HA/AA). The weaknesses of each can be compensated with a set of decent ornaments.

    Thx for reply. I'm mostly interested in HA/AA vs LA. I guess I'm saying is it still weaker when you factor in set bonuses? You won't get as much def/warding levels or atk/slaying levels from going HA/AA due to set bonuses. I seldom see those things factored in when I see these armor discussions, which is why I brought it up. But your post is still very informative.


    There is a post I made once that is a little outdated but it still has some good information on it if you feel like reading. You can find it here. Go to the section of "Average player build scenario".

    I looked at this and saw you had an AA build with 14k pdef even when you only have 2 pieces (neck and belt) with over 1k pdef. All your other pieces (4 pieces of armor and 2 rings) had 100-250 pdef each. How did you get almost 15k pdef?

    I was referring to this :
    AA Vit build
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    click the buffs button. You will see that activating all defence buffs (the venos own buff + cleric + bm) almost tripled the defence.

    That build you just linked is the standard build for any AA. Except that not many will refine those 2 pdef items so much more than the rest of the gear (but doing this is not a bad thing). I would advise to go with 1 step cheaper shards though.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Thx for reply. I'm mostly interested in HA/AA vs LA. I guess I'm saying is it still weaker when you factor in set bonuses? You won't get as much def/warding levels or atk/slaying levels from going HA/AA due to set bonuses. I seldom see those things factored in when I see these armor discussions, which is why I brought it up. But your post is still very informative.

    Ah I understand your question now. Most HA/AA Venomancers I see usually wear either full HA or full AA so they always have the bonuses. They simply switch the whole armor around when they need more physical or more magical defence. That requires having two sets of well refined/sharded armor though so it's a little expensive..

    If it is an actual HA/AA mix however... I think the best you can do is play with the PWCalc and make your own comparisons based on what gear you think you'll be able to obtain. There are way too many possibilities here that makes it hard to pin down to an example or two. b:surrender

    I did try to make a quick comparison a potential LA build and a potential HA/AA mix.

    Slightly higher defences still, but loss of defence levels and attack levels. Magic attack is going to be lower due to the Str/Dex requirements for the HA gear. In that case a full LA is probably better all around.


    I looked at this and saw you had an AA build with 14k pdef even when you only have 2 pieces (neck and belt) with over 1k pdef. All your other pieces (4 pieces of armor and 2 rings) had 100-250 pdef each. How did you get almost 15k pdef?

    I was referring to this :
    AA Vit build

    The builds had buffs enabled; without them the AA builds had 4k ish physical defence (it would be much higher with Passives/Nuema/Cards now) but 10k ish in Fox form.
    Vit increases your defences a little and I think it also affects buffs so a Vit build's buffed defences are a little higher (depending on how much Vit they have). LA gets a similar boost (4k ish/ 10k ish Fox).

    But remember these are pre-Primal World values. They are also simply one example for the sake of comparison, you can play around with different ornaments/shards/refines, buffs on and buffs on etc.

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  • sailormoon4ever
    sailormoon4ever Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    If it is an actual HA/AA mix however

    Yeah I was talking about an HA/AA mix. I find that there is almost always both physical and magical damage in most dungeons. In fact a lot of times, the same boss does both types of damage. So I'm more interested in balanced defense.
    I did try to make a quick comparison a potential LA build and a potential HA/AA mix.

    Slightly higher defences still, but loss of defence levels and attack levels. Magic attack is going to be lower due to the Str/Dex requirements for the HA gear. In that case a full LA is probably better all around.

    Yeah looks like I have to rethink my plans to reawaken as an HA/AA veno. I still might go for it, but its not that clear cut anymore.