about the wizzard

XXHotXx - Morai

Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You want a solution, simple:
Make undine strike to amplify damage done by earth, water, fire skills for 30% rather than reducing m.def, that would even pvp field for wiz in 1 vs 1, and also great to team up with psys in TW or mass pvp.

30%? xD that doesnt even cover the gap in base magic damage between a wiz and a psychic for example

we need more like a 100% amp to match a psy in black voodoo damage, but still w\o the option to dps it while the psy would be able to dps (at the cost of trading defense levels tho)

Zanryu - Lothranis

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

30%? xD that doesnt even cover the gap in base magic damage between a wiz and a psychic for example

we need more like a 100% amp to match a psy in black voodoo damage, but still w\o the option to dps it while the psy would be able to dps (at the cost of trading defense levels tho)

...Psychics don't straight up deal double your damage in equal gear. A 100% amp is Heaven's Flame, and to give that to ANY class permanently could be pretty gamebreaking. Except BMs. We deserve it b:avoid

Seriously, I can't even match a Seeker's non HF'd damage on me with HF, Mire, and EP. It's pretty redonk dude.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

30%? xD that doesnt even cover the gap in base magic damage between a wiz and a psychic for example

we need more like a 100% amp to match a psy in black voodoo damage, but still w\o the option to dps it while the psy would be able to dps (at the cost of trading defense levels tho)

i disagree with u, i think dev team for make something similiar than udine was the 30% amplify enough vs light armor users and 35% vs heavy and maybe 40% vs caster (because originaly skill was meant to make dmg hurt mroe on caster too if unbuffed) since they must scale the nuke damage+ulti the higher amplify make op/opish the class

Can kill them in 1 spark. (imagine 2x or 3x wizard) champions of pve \o/

yes that nice but its if overdebuffed....

XXHotXx - Morai

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

...Psychics don't straight up deal double your damage in equal gear. A 100% amp is Heaven's Flame, and to give that to ANY class permanently could be pretty gamebreaking. Except BMs. We deserve it b:avoid

Seriously, I can't even match a Seeker's non HF'd damage on me with HF, Mire, and EP. It's pretty redonk dude.

i made tests very endgame vs very endgame (with passives nuema portal set 2nd reborn etch) ( n 0 i t p e c n i )

wizard undine gush is 2-4k

psy black voodoo aqua cannon is 7-14k

trust me 30% is actually close to nothing, and psys can dps that damage with their short casts and cooldowns, a wizard cant do that

if you dont believe go and try yourself xD at very endgame the gap between base magic damage of the diff classes is freaking mental

undine debuff used to reduce f.e. someone with 80% res (16000) (endgame) down to 62% (6400) causing a 90% damage amp

now undine debuff reduces from 80% (16000) res down to 74% (11200) causing a 33% damage amp and here is the retardness of our damage now

also we have lowest base magic attack, we dont have skills that multiply base magic attack, we dont have short cast channelling and cooldown times, we dont have mobility cause of paralyze, we dont have CCs nor purge \ purge weapons, we dont have amps besides ice prison

what's wizards utility\role now?

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

......................


wizard undine gush is 2-4k

psy black voodoo aqua cannon is 7-14k

........................................

sage gush: base + 100% of weapon damage plus 3390 water
sage aqua cannon: base + 200% of weapon damage plus 5376 water

.........

try aqua impact what is closer to gush or stone rain with aqua

that show more realitic number to peoples

Evryn - Morai

"Gush" is a basic attack skill, fast casting and relatively low damage. The comparable one on the Psy is "Aqua Impact".

I've crunched some numbers and can't support your conclusion:
Wiz:
Gush: 100% + 3390
Water Mastery +25%
Undine: Reduce ele dmg by 60%
Assuming G16 weapon + armor set bonus, 45 Alvls

Psy:
Aqua Impact: 100% + 2937.5
Water Mastery +25%
Black Voodoo: +25 AttLvl, -11 DefLvl
Assuming G16 weapon + armor set bonus, 45 Alvls

Assuming both the Psy and Wizzie have a hypothetical main magic attack of 10K.
Hypothetical Victim has:
Full G15 Arcane: 20 Def Lvl
10K MDef
Cleric Buffs (standard): +60% Mdef

Wizzie hits for:
(10000+3390) * 1.25 Mastery = 16737,5
16737,5 * (100 + 45 Alvl - 20 Dlvl)/100 = 20921,9
Armor reduces damage by 72% after Undine (10.000MDef): 20921,9 * 0.28 = 5858,1


Psy hits for:
(10000+2937.5) * 1.25 Mastery = 16171,9
16171,9 * (100 + 70 Alvl - 20 Dlvl)/100 = 24257,8
Armor reduces damage by 77% (13.100MDef): 24257,8 * 0.23 = 5579,3
Character is more vulnerable due to deflvl adjustment.


This suggests that at the basic skill comparison of Gush vs Aqua Impact, the Psy actually does -less- damage as long as Undine affects the enemy.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

This suggests that at the basic skill comparison of Gush vs Aqua Impact, the Psy actually does -less- damage as long as Undine affects the enemy.

lol this more far from reallity than other example but also we isn't talked about psy+wizz combo, kinda no point in ur last row

1. your example use somehow mid game phase where still viable but ur point stay ONLY in mid game phase, since end game archer have 2x more mdef than ur theoretical arcana class

2. if want to make fair calculation then try use r9 3rd (no high refined card but neck yes)

3. u say aqua impact hit less, well skill itself yes, but what about higher damage on sphere r9 3rd compared with m. sword with could be multiplicated by mag/spark/any weapon modifier buff? simple check ur base mattack how much higher than same 3rd +12 wizz one

4. i got over 40k mdef with buff and maxed primal without maxed card or without nuema set and like we know the reduction isnt linear, so decrease 8k mdef from 40k vs 2.5k from 10k isnt same at all

5. point above in that point wrong when i 1:8 ration because acctuall after r9+nw tome+rebirths u gain 400ish mag point what is 48% more mdef + primal 56% more mdefence added compared with old/early or mid game unbuffed vs cleric buffed.

(advatange from fixed dmg damn neglible compared with minor dmg but multiplicated with alot thing like stat/buff etc)


Lets see the best current place where udine used (ofc not vs arcane where mag point multipolicate the eq defence and ur debuff became more screwed coz of defence from stat+primal)

Test from the game

Let me see cleric buffed sin with lv7 primal defence:

22588 mdef
83.90% - 16.10% reicived dmg
3976 dmg - wizz phoenix skill

add udine
16957 mdef
79.64% - 20.36% reicived dmg
4906 dmg
+26.45962732919254658385093167702%

cleric buffed sin with lv0 primal defence

17916 mdef
82.52% - 17.48% reicived dmg
5011 dmg

12285 mdef
73.92% - 26.08% reicived dmg
6520 dmg
+49.19908466819221967963386727689%

this mean other place make more screwed the udine, well mainly vs arcane, high def lv (seeker or basically any josd class, marrowed like bm) characters compared with black voodoo...

well still u can say ur skill got less fixed dmg but base dmg without any buff have multiple times more dmg than the difference between impact vs gush

xxxbigboss115xxx

I don't even want to imagine how it will be with level 10 passives...

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

xxxbigboss115xxx wrote: »

I don't even want to imagine how it will be with level 10 passives...

atm vs caster is around +16% more dmg with udine than without, with lv7 passive, so u can count to less b:laugh

XXHotXx - Morai

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

"Gush" is a basic attack skill, fast casting and relatively low damage. The comparable one on the Psy is "Aqua Impact".

I've crunched some numbers and can't support your conclusion:
Wiz:
Gush: 100% + 3390
Water Mastery +25%
Undine: Reduce ele dmg by 60%
Assuming G16 weapon + armor set bonus, 45 Alvls

Psy:
Aqua Impact: 100% + 2937.5
Water Mastery +25%
Black Voodoo: +25 AttLvl, -11 DefLvl
Assuming G16 weapon + armor set bonus, 45 Alvls

Assuming both the Psy and Wizzie have a hypothetical main magic attack of 10K.
Hypothetical Victim has:
Full G15 Arcane: 20 Def Lvl
10K MDef
Cleric Buffs (standard): +60% Mdef

Wizzie hits for:
(10000+3390) * 1.25 Mastery = 16737,5
16737,5 * (100 + 45 Alvl - 20 Dlvl)/100 = 20921,9
Armor reduces damage by 72% after Undine (10.000MDef): 20921,9 * 0.28 = 5858,1


Psy hits for:
(10000+2937.5) * 1.25 Mastery = 16171,9
16171,9 * (100 + 70 Alvl - 20 Dlvl)/100 = 24257,8
Armor reduces damage by 77% (13.100MDef): 24257,8 * 0.23 = 5579,3
Character is more vulnerable due to deflvl adjustment.


This suggests that at the basic skill comparison of Gush vs Aqua Impact, the Psy actually does -less- damage as long as Undine affects the enemy.

your maths is flawed cause:

undine doesnt reduce res by 60% anymore, besides the debuff working on the enemy base ele res that is therefore buffed up by defense passives...
you really HAVE to consider the asymptotic behaviour of the damage reduction to resistance value function, if we reduce f.e. from 16000 to 11000 with undine, we reduce target damage reduction by 6% that is nothing comapred to 25% more damage from black

also psychics base magic attack (damage) at very very endgame (nuema portal etch) and equal gears is almost 20% more than wizard's

we are talking very endgame, coming up with g16 vana maths takes us back to 2011 scenarios...

with the resistances being that high in value, with undine you will drop target elemental damage reduction by 1% if you are lucky, most likely if you are targeting a buffed arcane, the debuff wont even be able to drop target ele res by a single percentage point (0%)

what could be clever to do for the devs, would be to make undine debuff, instead of reducing target elemental resistance by 60%, it should reduce target damage reduction by 60%

and that if still they want to keep the **** damage we have on our socalled DPH skills... else we will need base damage multiplier skilsl such as elimination or life hunter

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

your maths is flawed cause:

undine doesnt reduce res by 60% anymore, besides the debuff working on the enemy base ele res that is therefore buffed up by defense passives...

not easier to say it is reduce 60% gear/equipment defence?
and non casters with 5 mag point running around with 216% gear mressist (cleric +lv7 primal)/156% unbuffed and casters even with more % because 10 mag=1.2% gear mressist?

normal it was 100%/160%=>udined 40%/100% and not like soon 180%/240% with lv10 primal=>120%/180% after udine for non casters

Proski - Archosaur

haha..man, this forum. look, the worst thing about wizards isn't even measurable; they are fundamentally gimped from conceptualization - clunky mechanics and horrible trade offs. take FoW for example, you practically lose a second of the silence duration from the animation alone before you're even able to cast again, and its so easily kitable.

but the real salient point here is that wizards are the only class that can be reasonably replaced in every scenario on this game. by reasonably, that is to say you would not be missing anything special by not having the wizard w/ your squad in: any PvE, PK, NW, TW.

when you weigh all of the available features in this game at once, you cannot say the same about the other classes, they all have it better. I'm sorry, but if you can't see that, you're either showing profound ignorance or your ego deceived you into thinking you have some magical insight that is more worth listening to over the 5 years of 10's of thousands of players playing this game of proof that has demonstrated that from cost-benefit analysis p.o.v, wizards are, by far, the least worth playing.

from raw pushing potential for offensive momentum in TW, to functional squad skills, to CC, to useful utility, to dps, wizards are outshined. and yes, even venos aoe better than wizards - the 6 second 100% weapon dmg parasitic nova is better than anything wizards can do outside of blowing 2 sparks.

as for dph, what a meaningless term? dph only matters in the context that you can 1 shot people or bypass a charm, that's it. again, outside of blowing a genie skill and 2 sparks, every other class can out-dps a wizard in a window of a couple of seconds. nobody else but xxHotxxx sees a massive problem with this when our class was specifically limited in what it could do as per the trade off for being the hardest hitting class in the game, which we are far from.

G'Nite sweet princes, not going to bother posting in this hopeless thread anymore. debating PWI with people is so lulzy ;P

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Proski - Archosaur wrote: »

nobody else but xxHotxxx sees a massive problem with this when our class was specifically limited in what it could do as per the trade off for being the hardest hitting class in the game, which we are far from.

every wizzard see that... just few disagree with hotx numbers, example make 100% increase dmg debuff, instead of that would better the increase by 35% and make nuke skill with 150%+ base dmg and ulties with multiplied base dmg then cant be abused the debuff...

(ex. if in tw u put 100% debuff+bm the hf to barb and psy will kill the barb not u )

well have mroe way too, example add again x% base dmg to every slow skill and remove udine, make mastery more effective like to 60% etc

nh was made for nerf debuff but have more way to make wizz viable without make abuseable debuff

XXHotXx - Morai

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

every wizzard see that... just few disagree with hotx numbers, example make 100% increase dmg debuff, instead of that would better the increase by 35% and make nuke skill with 150%+ base dmg and ulties with multiplied base dmg then cant be abused the debuff...

(ex. if in tw u put 100% debuff+bm the hf to barb and psy will kill the barb not u )

well have mroe way too, example add again x% base dmg to every slow skill and remove udine, make mastery more effective like to 60% etc

nh was made for nerf debuff but have more way to make wizz viable without make abuseable debuff

the main point of all this,

is wizard class has never been intended as a dps class

therefore we NEED to have a SOLID DPH:

what SOLID DPH is?

aoe ulties that generate massive aoe damage, or single target 1shot burst

now we dont have massive aoe damage and we dont have single target burst

thus we still are not able to DPS, while all other classes can (even ****** mystics full support class can DPS better than how a wizard does)

only thing we got close to be a DPS thing is frozen flame, but it has a **** 30 seconds cooldown, and it hits like a basic skill

if they wanted to give us DPS, that skill should have 200% base magic damage (at least) and no cooldown (exactly the same of life hunter)

gg trash class?

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

the main point of all this,

is wizard class has never been intended as a dps class

therefore we NEED to have a SOLID DPH:

what SOLID DPH is?

aoe ulties that generate massive aoe damage, or single target 1shot burst

now we dont have massive aoe damage and we dont have single target burst

thus we still are not able to DPS, while all other classes can (even ****** mystics full support class can DPS better than how a wizard does)

only thing we got close to be a DPS thing is frozen flame, but it has a **** 30 seconds cooldown, and it hits like a basic skill

if they wanted to give us DPS, that skill should have 200% base magic damage (at least) and no cooldown (exactly the same of life hunter)

gg trash class?

sorry but this how related with what i wrote?
then make wizz more dph never was question, only with how to make it

XXHotXx - Morai

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

sorry but this how related with what i wrote?
then make wizz more dph never was question, only with how to make it

no well i mean you have good points too amp+skill damage rework works

but at this point wizard class needs a consistent rework cause we are currently trash

Fissile - Archosaur

I don't even play my wiz anymore. I get 1 shot with full buffs by sins, seekers, psys, and barbs even with 81 defense levels and 36k p def / 37k m def / 20k HP. There isn't really anything I can do about it either.

RepubIican - Raging Tide

O.O reply to above

XXHotXx - Morai

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

I don't even play my wiz anymore. I get 1 shot with full buffs by sins, seekers, psys, and barbs even with 81 defense levels and 36k p def / 37k m def / 20k HP. There isn't really anything I can do about it either.

i received a 27k hit from a sin and i have 45k p res 120 def lvls and 711 spirit
while i hit him back for 3ks

str barbs mighty swing spam is 6ks every mighty swing, and i hit them back 5-6ks in the remote chance i am not paralyzed

fvckin' hell

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

I don't even play my wiz anymore. I get 1 shot with full buffs by sins, seekers, psys, and barbs even with 81 defense levels and 36k p def / 37k m def / 20k HP. There isn't really anything I can do about it either.

i rerolled to psy ebcause long ago wizz was superior in tw but now psy alot better, even with white voodoo more helpfull in tw with his buffs on cata puller and in cc too

1st i started build better my sin but i like caster better.


@Hot

i still curios to aqua impact vs gush or rockfall vs aqua cannon test

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Proski - Archosaur wrote: »

but the real salient point here is that wizards are the only class that can be reasonably replaced in every scenario on this game. by reasonably, that is to say you would not be missing anything special by not having the wizard w/ your squad in: any PvE, PK, NW, TW.

when you weigh all of the available features in this game at once, you cannot say the same about the other classes, they all have it better. I'm sorry, but if you can't see that, you're either showing profound ignorance or your ego deceived you into thinking you have some magical insight that is more worth listening to over the 5 years of 10's of thousands of players playing this game of proof that has demonstrated that from cost-benefit analysis p.o.v, wizards are, by far, the least worth playing.

I love playing a wizard, very fun class. And I agree with this 100%. In any instance, its the only class you wont miss.

Lolozaurus - Morai

I play a wiz for like 4 years now. Guess what. With every update they wrecked us...little by little.

Last one was a massive one.

Give Super OP ONESHOT AND DEBUFFS TO ZERK CRIT CLASSES AND GIVE THEM MDEF TOO(THE PASSIVES) so we can kill them in 2 years if they stay afk.

After full R9+12 JOSD and 2 rebirths and full S card set, my class is now GARBAGE!

XXHotXx - Morai

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

i rerolled to psy ebcause long ago wizz was superior in tw but now psy alot better, even with white voodoo more helpfull in tw with his buffs on cata puller and in cc too

1st i started build better my sin but i like caster better.


@Hot

i still curios to aqua impact vs gush or rockfall vs aqua cannon test

man pm me your skype i ll link you this server where you will be able to make all the tests you wish with any kind of gear \ card set currently available on pwi

@ lolozaurus

little by little?

not really, till NH our class was pretty solid, not as solid as sage sins but still not bad...

with NH they hard-nerfed our debuffs and they flattened down our dph output below any other arcane class

while we are supposed to be the hardest hitters, now we have the lowest DPH thanks to lowest base magic damage among all the arcane classes and skills with no base damage multipliers

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

man pm me your skype i ll link you this server where you will be able to make all the tests you wish with any kind of gear \ card set currently available on pwi

@ lolozaurus

little by little?

not really, till NH our class was pretty solid, not as solid as sage sins but still not bad...

with NH they hard-nerfed our debuffs and they flattened down our dph output below any other arcane class

while we are supposed to be the hardest hitters, now we have the lowest DPH thanks to lowest base magic damage among all the arcane classes and skills with no base damage multipliers

well i am there too and got 3rd+12 + nuema portal set with psy/wizz/mystic (i was curios to these 3 class at end game with end game cards) but i have no time for vote/login etc anymore

RSully - Heavens Tear

So my current conclusion to the matter is to play like a ****ing beast and hope for change in the future. If there is one surety, the game will evolve, it has to.

Or re-roll, no more QQ.

XXHotXx - Morai

RSully - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So my current conclusion to the matter is to play like a ****ing beast and hope for change in the future. If there is one surety, the game will evolve, it has to.

Or re-roll, no more QQ.

yea reroll, easy to say when you didnt invest years and thousands b:surrender

Fissile - Archosaur

Lol "invest".

My wiz is way ahead of my alts in gear, stats, cards, and shards. But in my 4 years I've geared 3 r9 recast chars, sin/seeker/wiz. Even without the new skills or passives (and only B and C cards), it is far easier to kill r9 players on sin or seeker than wiz. Sadly JoSD have more than doubled in price in the last 6 weeks on Archosaur server (105m DoD and 310-320m for JoSD) so I don't think I am going to bother trying to jade either of them. Sucks to have a r9 recast +11/12 toon just collecting dust. Maybe I will splurge on sin skills so I have have the 1shot hot button too.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

Lol "invest".

My wiz is way ahead of my alts in gear, stats, cards, and shards. But in my 4 years I've geared 3 r9 recast chars, sin/seeker/wiz. Even without the new skills or passives (and only B and C cards), it is far easier to kill r9 players on sin or seeker than wiz.

i feel same, no any advantage/edge in wizz why worth to play with it in end game..

i rolling now psy, even not 3rd etc but still i feel easier to play than with wizz with same gear

Gnip - Raging Tide

yep i too have dumped my wiz, and dusted off my sin. Sucks though, i prefer my wiz, but is nigh impossible to kill anything remotely equal geared.b:cry

Suekasa - Archosaur

I can't Begin too Show my Frustration..b:surrender

I am not a Good or well geared Wizard but i have

Dumped all my time money into Wizard class. I have Spoken Too many Already about it and i And others Have Agreed..

that Us Wizards Don't Stand A Chance in Pvp.In Pve We Don't even come Close too Hitting the hardest..

Wizard was my First ever toon. and Is My Main I love him and Its Super Fun but I'm sure Like most of Us Read the Info win Creating and Thought. Omg that's totally Me But we all Know that's False Advertisement.

In Pve I Struggle too Get my Bhs Due too the Fact That we Have no roll too play in any Squad other the Damage Dealing Soo you are going need Good +12r9 Weapon too just get in A Squad

But...All other magic class's Hit just as High if not higher and More Dps

I cant Say for sure But i have seen Wizards kick some huge #$#! in NW And
some of you have been in this forums *you no who you are* b:laugh

But all it takes is a Good sin or a few good Stuns and its Over (this can be Criticized we no that not every battle in NW or TW is say (fair or Balanced players)

But Win it come's down too it at least in my mind We are by Far the Weakest b:surrender

My G15/G16 Wizard may be Weak in compression too 99.9% of the wizards on my Sever

But that Shouldn't matter win i can simply make another class the Same way with the same gear and be over 100x Times stronger