New Horizons PvP balance

XXHotXx - Morai

Since I missed the New Horizons suggestion thread opened by sparkie few time ago (i tried to search it with no luck)

I'm opening a thread to gather opinions about how to restore the balance after New Horizons expansion.

Since now we can "appreciate" (or not) the gameplay, with most of the players in possession of all Primal skills upgrades and passives,

i have to say that all the classes that rely on landing resistances debuffs, have been pretty much screwed up PvP wise.

F.E., as posted in the wizard section, someone tested undine strike + genie skill spark on the same npc geared and unbuffed target, before and after primal resistance passives,

He could notice that in the first case fire resistance would've been zerod, after he learnt passive resistance skills, the target still had almost half of his fire resistance value.

This thing, added with the fact of resistance cap increase to 95% and added with the fact that wizards got kind of nerfs aswell, especially demon ones,

imo that weakened too much wizard class, endgame pvp wise.

(you would say yes but wizards can get resistance passives aswell, tho wizs had already high phys and mag base resistances in first place before primal update, and the new passives dont affect our survivability too much, also the 14% passive skill damage increase is negligible)

More things:

- With this huge resistances improvement, psychic buffs HAVE to be self-buffs,
some classes become just unkillable if buffed up with 50k+ soulforce psychic buffs

- Much has been done in past patches to try nerf assassin DPS output, and now they got back the best "DPH to DPS" output along with probably the best sustain \ survivability available (immunity to purge\CCs\debuffs),
if you add defense passives there is no way a proper buffed sin can be killed, also they can land huge amounts of crowd control.
(check latest assassin pvp videos on youtube and you can appreciate how they just wont die a single time)

-Archers got a nice add with the def passives, but almost all the new damage skills are worthless, also the debuffs a sage archers could land are not as effective as they were in past, and they cant kite anymore cause of the new Paralyze CC

offcourse i dont actually play all the classes in-game so i would like to know opinions about other classes aswell, and how do you feel with the current PvP balance

(please assassin class users' toxic comments not allowed, you know as everybody knows your class is currently overpowered dont try to argument the contrary b:chuckle )

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

(please assassin class users' toxic comments not allowed, you know as everybody knows your class is currently overpowered dont try to argument the contrary b:chuckle )

Considering the fact that at least 70-75% of PWI owns a sin for some purpose, this part is really moot.

Desdi - Sanctuary

It's also the War Avatars that cannot be "purged". When people will start leveling their cards and/or acquiring good sets then defences will be even better. A good card set is as good as equipping a second R9rr, although attack will also be boosted.

I think it would be appropriate to have a skill that temporarily disables War Avatars, much like BM's skill to disable weapons.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's also the War Avatars that cannot be "purged". When people will start leveling their cards and/or acquiring good sets then defences will be even better. A good card set is as good as equipping a second R9rr, although attack will also be boosted.

I think it would be appropriate to have a skill that temporarily disables War Avatars, much like BM's skill to disable weapons.

Hmm I think that would be a bit broken. Considering quite a few cards have +str/dex adds that can be restatted if these were unequipped it would be like your necklace breaking where all your gear comes off and you would get wrecked by a TT70.

Re; XXHotXx - Morai
I think it's too early to tell, we have yet to see the majority of people level up/reawaken their cards, sure a lot of people running around with S cards, but the set bonuses will make a big big difference.

The passives seem OP as people have maxed these out by now, until we see a catch up in offensive power and spirit.. here's where the 14% damage passive will exponentially improve.

Eoria - Harshlands

Spark combo needed a nerf, sorry.

Archers got pretty supremely ****ed in this update though, yeah.

Auerlius - Archosaur

you are completely right, add in dex crit been unbalanced with all the rb stat points, and you'll get to what i was saying in my post. clerics in particular have been rammed up the *** with no spit.

XXHotXx - Morai

yea i agree about archers that got almost nothing besides the common def passives, and imo sage archers after primal update became very very obsolete as all the classes that have to rely on debuffs for pvp (such clerics for ex)....

but spark combo already had plenty of counters,
what a wizard is supposed to do besides the spark debuff combo

they nerfed the only "purpose" of the wizard class.

i found myself hitting 1-2ks on buffed LAs with normal skills, i also hardly reach the double digits with undine spark (if the target is dumb enough to tank it)

its just too much nerf (and i have 400 spirit + s cards),
so the point is do we have to roll at 1k spirit (therefore have major gear advantage) to be effective as a class?

also the bm\barb new Paralyze is supposed to counter the high mobility of LAs and mass-pvp-scenario purify proc, i personally dont agree with this new CC skill but...

...point is the only class that needed such a strong counter, cause they are basically immune to CC (sage assassins), its the only class that's kind of immune to it, giving them even more freedom and advantages in mass pvp

i'm not sure about all the classes but if changes wont be made to current balance, pretty much everyone will reroll sin or barb to stay competitive

Desdi - Sanctuary

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hmm I think that would be a bit broken. Considering quite a few cards have +str/dex adds that can be restatted if these were unequipped it would be like your necklace breaking where all your gear comes off and you would get wrecked by a TT70.

Mm I suppose.
Alternatively, the skill could just temporarily disable the "white" stats of the cards and leave the blue stats alone due to what you mentioned. I was considering the skill having a balanced (aka longer) cooldown too. Just throwing ideas around.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Mm I suppose.
Alternatively, the skill could just temporarily disable the "white" stats of the cards and leave the blue stats alone due to what you mentioned. I was considering the skill having a balanced (aka longer) cooldown too. Just throwing ideas around.

I disagree. Taking off a weapon to prevent people from being able to use skills and taking off armor/cards are very different. I don't think giving someone the ability to remove cards in any way is a good idea.

trands

On my own class (psychic): the class didn't really need an upgrade. It was quite balanced before. It's not to bad after, even though it got lower on the power-ranking of the AA classes. As only class without defense debuff ability, while other means lost their importance (like attack lvls), psychics are rather weak damage wise. It makes no sense that they reduced the number of dot skills that are the only way to really kill equally geared opponents 1vs1, from 3 to 1 chi-consuming longer cd skill. Survivability wise, they gained a bit (at least for now). The idea of pve-upgrades was smart, as the class didn't really need upgrades pvp-wise while being unwanted pve. Just stupid this only benefit the rich ones, who aren't really concerned ...
Overall, I'm a little disapointed. Not on the upgrades of my class strictly speaking, but how they compare to those of other classes. Psychics lost a large part of their unique features already and got them distributed among other classes. Now we got 1 pve-only thingy on a ridiculously hard to get skill, while several other classes in the same situation of not needing an upgrade got decent to epic upgrades.

Wizards got nerfed (a tiny little bit): thank god, was about time. They are still the strongest caster though and had better upgrades then psychic. For a long time they already have high mobility, best debuff, best defensive self-buff (with no drawback like fox or voodoo), highest damage skills. In my opinion, they got some nice upgrades that weren't needed. I'm not much concerned though. Psy vs wizzy is still just endless and boring.

Archers: were fine and are fine. They are scary, as they should for an AA class, and they still are. They just need an anti-QQ skill. They find themselves weak and just can't see how their range is such a big point. This will soon be the QQ-class.

Sins: they needed an upgrade. Personally, I'm not that much concerned as I'm the anti-sin class, but seems they overdid the balance a bit as usual. Considering the skills are rare, will take a while to take real measure of it.

On the rest, it doesn't seem to matter that much. I think the barb paralyze skill is stupid and annoying but not horrible. BM really needed a boost. Doesn't seem to bad for now, not many bms around with equal gear to judge. Mystics are mysterious as always. Clerics are luckily busy healing others before themselves. Seekers are as predictable as ever. Venos recently got their pet-updates, so I don't feel bad for them.

Kevyy - Harshlands

tbh mages spark did not need a nurf. You can easily counter it with a genie or purify skill. It wasnt game breaking. I'm not surprised to see sins being the power house in this update considering these are the same devs that made the class.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Kevyy - Harshlands wrote: »

tbh mages spark did not need a nurf. You can easily counter it with a genie or purify skill. It wasnt game breaking. I'm not surprised to see sins being the power house in this update considering these are the same devs that made the class.

Requiring a genie to counter is a little gamebreaking. That's the issue with sins as well. If your genie is dead there's very little "countering" the combo. Undined Sparked fire skills hitting you for half your HP or more? Yup, that's totally in the spirit of competition.

Kevyy - Harshlands

There should be no real reason for that to happen unless you're severely out numbered/geared. Since mages generally have a dex build genie it's not going to have alot of vit/mag and SoF doesnt require alot of genie energy. There is multiple videos of people doing a good job resisting spark and still have enough genie energy for faith, ad, expel, etc. In all honesty it generally comes down to good timing and positioning.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Kevyy - Harshlands wrote: »

There should be no real reason for that to happen unless you're severely out numbered/geared. Since mages generally have a dex build genie it's not going to have alot of vit/mag and SoF doesnt require alot of genie energy. There is multiple videos of people doing a good job resisting spark and still have enough genie energy for faith, ad, expel, etc. In all honesty it generally comes down to good timing and positioning.

You miss the point sir!

Kevyy - Harshlands

kkkkkkkkkkkk

XXHotXx - Morai

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Requiring a genie to counter is a little gamebreaking. That's the issue with sins as well. If your genie is dead there's very little "countering" the combo. Undined Sparked fire skills hitting you for half your HP or more? Yup, that's totally in the spirit of competition.

spark is a genie skill, so using a genie skill to counter another genie skill is a pretty fair trade,
also there are many other possible counters, f.e. wog\3spark\purify\plenty of shields-damage reduction skills other classes have\qpq or simply CC the wizard after the spark xD

wasnt that hard to counter spark xD

how do you counter new bm stun tho? or even a reel in from a flyer, with your target on ground then stunlock it \ new paralyze it to death?

they should really make reel in not working from a flyer, cause bugging people in the air like that is pretty broken

(tho love you master :$)

Zanryu - Lothranis

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

spark is a genie skill, so using a genie skill to counter another genie skill is a pretty fair trade,
also there are many other possible counters, f.e. wog\3spark\purify\plenty of shields-damage reduction skills other classes have\qpq or simply CC the wizard after the spark xD

wasnt that hard to counter spark xD

how do you counter new bm stun tho? or even a reel in from a flyer, with your target on ground then stunlock it \ new paralyze it to death?

they should really make reel in not working from a flyer, cause bugging people in the air like that is pretty broken

(tho love you master :$)

It costs very little to use, is spammable to a degree, and allows for immense damage. The damage output is insane for the cost, making the combo unbalanced. The same way the Seeker combo's unbalanced and Assassin stunlocks are unbalanced. The actual cost to perform those combos is low, but the actions give a high reward. Low risk, high reward gameplay is horrible for competitive games.

WoG will only work if the person has chi, or if the target isn't immune.

You can't maintain three sparks in PvP for very long unless you're an Assassin. Triple spark is not a realistic option for negating Spark combos. Especially considering the cost of both skills.

Purify won't work if the Cleric is sealed or stunned, both of which Wizards can do.

Not a whole lot of classes actually have damage reduction skills, and the 15% or so from Windshield isn't that impressive.

Good luck CCing a Wizard from 15-30 meters away. Or CCing one who's used apo.

I'm not saying you can't survive it, but for the cost? It's a little broken.

Also what kind of scrub is dying to attacks doing half damage?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

It costs very little to use, is spammable to a degree, and allows for immense damage. The damage output is insane for the cost, making the combo unbalanced. The same way the Seeker combo's unbalanced and Assassin stunlocks are unbalanced. The actual cost to perform those combos is low, but the actions give a high reward. Low risk, high reward gameplay is horrible for competitive games.

WoG will only work if the person has chi, or if the target isn't immune.

You can't maintain three sparks in PvP for very long unless you're an Assassin. Triple spark is not a realistic option for negating Spark combos. Especially considering the cost of both skills.

Purify won't work if the Cleric is sealed or stunned, both of which Wizards can do.

Not a whole lot of classes actually have damage reduction skills, and the 15% or so from Windshield isn't that impressive.

Good luck CCing a Wizard from 15-30 meters away. Or CCing one who's used apo.

I'm not saying you can't survive it, but for the cost? It's a little broken.

Also what kind of scrub is dying to attacks doing half damage?

Sorry to tell you this but to keep a target unable to do anything, e.i. stunned/sealed AND immobolize/slept, is very chi consuming on a sin.

Headhunt- cost 2 sparks
Deepsting- cost 35 chi
Throatcut- cost 1 spark
Tackling slash- gives 50 chi
Total cost for 1 rotation of skills=-200-35-100+50=285 chi=2.85 sparks

For the sake of balance lets assume the sin used inner harmony, that bring the cost to 85 chi. It's not bad, but its still actually costing the sin chi, just not as much as a BM. Unbalanced? Depends. You can still used skills while immobolized, and genie/apo while sealed. It's a bit more counterable than the 'spark-boom-ur-dead' wizzie combo, don't you think?

Dragslave - Dreamweaver

Is so fun to hear BMs who got the OP stun, and sins who got insane crit and skills complaining....
Wizards ONLY way to hit harder tham other classes was spark combo.... nowadays with passives and max reduction increased to 95% made spark not so great... im a +12 pure AA 890 magic wiz, my genie has 90 dex, and i cant hit so hard as before the rebirths... i mean... i hit more.... but on crappy targets... i hit a full jade psy for 7k with spark hits maybe.... even on seekers is like 10k luckily, counting the damage i have and the bonus fron undine + spark.... something is seriously wrong.

So, QQ less when u got ubber skills and upgrades and we got our best way to kill ppl nerfed

XXHotXx - Morai

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

It costs very little to use, is spammable to a degree, and allows for immense damage. The damage output is insane for the cost, making the combo unbalanced. The same way the Seeker combo's unbalanced and Assassin stunlocks are unbalanced. The actual cost to perform those combos is low, but the actions give a high reward. Low risk, high reward gameplay is horrible for competitive games.

WoG will only work if the person has chi, or if the target isn't immune.

You can't maintain three sparks in PvP for very long unless you're an Assassin. Triple spark is not a realistic option for negating Spark combos. Especially considering the cost of both skills.

Purify won't work if the Cleric is sealed or stunned, both of which Wizards can do.

Not a whole lot of classes actually have damage reduction skills, and the 15% or so from Windshield isn't that impressive.

Good luck CCing a Wizard from 15-30 meters away. Or CCing one who's used apo.

I'm not saying you can't survive it, but for the cost? It's a little broken.

Also what kind of scrub is dying to attacks doing half damage?

well bro today you saw in pk what i was talking about actual pvp is hell of unbalanced

its even more Perfect World Assassins right now xD

but besides that wizards cant dps so the only way to kill anything was to spark-bypass

removed that, we got no way to kill targets (if equal geared, equal skilled, equal buffed etch)

XXHotXx - Morai

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sorry to tell you this but to keep a target unable to do anything, e.i. stunned/sealed AND immobolize/slept, is very chi consuming on a sin.

Headhunt- cost 2 sparks
Deepsting- cost 35 chi
Throatcut- cost 1 spark
Tackling slash- gives 50 chi
Total cost for 1 rotation of skills=-200-35-100+50=285 chi=2.85 sparks

For the sake of balance lets assume the sin used inner harmony, that bring the cost to 85 chi. It's not bad, but its still actually costing the sin chi, just not as much as a BM. Unbalanced? Depends. You can still used skills while immobolized, and genie/apo while sealed. It's a bit more counterable than the 'spark-boom-ur-dead' wizzie combo, don't you think?

i believe sins can manage their chi to keep up a stunlock pretty well xD prolly its the class with the best chi management ability in game,
cmon which other class got a CC skill that actually gives half a spark back XD

also spark-boom-ur-dead combo on sage sins? that never happened even before New Horizons, you know sage tidal doesnt make undine either spark very viable to be used

but now in that 30 seconds tidal mirror, assumed sin has stealth down, deaden nerves down, genie down, apothecary down, def charms down (impossibru), a spark wont still bypass him due to def passives

Eoria - Harshlands

...there are other options than just spark combo.

XXHotXx - Morai

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

...there are other options than just spark combo.

for a wiz?
to kill an endgame sage sin?

we cant purge him \ CC him\ debuff him \ amp him

he can purge us\ CC us \ debuff us \ amp us

there are no options, we can just prolly outtank the sin, or sutra + ztp try to dps him if you dont get a lock, but please enlighten me here

edit: no we cant even outtank the sin, since he can purge and we cant

Euzebe - Sanctuary

If wizzies don't like Spark anymore, Psys will take it. ty

XXHotXx - Morai

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

If wizzies don't like Spark anymore, Psys will take it. ty

besides the fact that you dont have fire damage, psychic class can actually kind of dps xD

Cantabrum - Archosaur

for some reason this just end up to QQ sin to op as was before r999 update

XXHotXx - Morai

Cantabrum - Archosaur wrote: »

for some reason this just end up to QQ sin to op as was before r999 update

yea >-< i dont really wanna derail so lets return in topic

whats your feeling about current PvP balance \ unbalance \ suggestions etch

Nudimmud - Lost City

Sins really didn't need the insane boost they got. PK is now basically whoever has the better/most sins. They're so broken now in pvp its stupid. If you don't believe me just go watch rinc's youtube videos. All those tw's are against people of equal gear, or something close to it. And if you're going to argue that's just one person, there are three other channels of different Lost City sins that show the exact same thing.

Barbs needed the nice new stun they got. I'm glad for the fluffies.

BM's, they pretty balanced now, except for the ones that just spam that demon bm buff. Then again, those are the ones that hide in sz so I don't worry about them as much. Also, I don't have a complete opinion on this yet as I don't believe any bm's on the server have all the new skills yet.

Cleric's stayed pretty balanced. That shield just takes forever to get through now since their mana pool went up with more magic from reawakening.

Veno's, the only ones I see well geared in pk run around like made and purge/amp all the time. They're maddening, but pretty balanced. Those upgraded monkey pets are a pain.

Psy's stayed pretty balanced too. Slightly tougher to kill, but that's to be expected. Glad they finally got a zhen for the pve side.

Wizards are all qq'ing about the fire nerf, but that was a needed nerf imo. Every single wizard just spammed that same combo when they have tons of other skills. They're still the hardest DPH class in game, and their defense when geared is crazy.

Seekers lost out, we gave up a bunch of versatility with no major benefit. We're basically pidgeon-holed into the same combo's now. I chose the class for versatility, makes me sad.

Archer's got the shaft on most of their skills. That aoe one is the only nice one.

Mystics, not enough are geared enough and pk enough on LC, so no opinion here.


Disclaimer: This is all my opinion as a seeker pk'ing/tw'ing/doing nw. I have every primal passive maxed and almost every skill. I am full r9s3, so make of it what you will. Also, trying to argue with someone else's opinion is pointless in a thread/place like this, so I will not be replying to any comments on this.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

besides the fact that you dont have fire damage, psychic class can actually kind of dps xD

Archers will have it. That blazing arrow damage man!

Euzebe - Sanctuary

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

besides the fact that you dont have fire damage, psychic class can actually kind of dps xD

Well duh, a water/earth version obviously. The DPS nature of Psy sometimes makes it hard to hit through a tanky class' HP inside a charm tick duration. I wouldnt say no to a debuff or amp

Cantabrum - Archosaur

dont really think pw is interesed on invest time and money to rebalance all our broken pvp skills