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Recent expansion, HA venos valid again?

Atropah - SanctuaryAtropah - Sanctuary Posts: 186 Arc User
edited February 2014 in Venomancer
With the recent expansion I decided to change my veno from HA to AA. Desdi has pointed out that with titles/meridians there is very little point to having an HA veno because the 90% pdef reduction (about 34k pdef) is reachable by r9t3 venos also (although not really G16 venos). Plus the +magic stats of meridians and titles go a much further distance with 600 magic instead of 450, and rebirth would make those numbers near 700 vs 550.

But then I thought "Wait, HA venos are getting some very decent boosts here." First is the obvious boost to a stat starved build. It's not hard to wind up with over 100+ stats after 2 reawakenings. This means HAs are no longer gear dependant to find the 5.5 stats per level needed for HA armor and AA weapon. Also, the ratio of magic an endgame veno has becomes smaller; 100-150 magic stats means less when you have 8 multipliers instead of only 6. One bonus of HA is we are freer to wear -channeling ornaments, since our pdef doesn't hinge on our ornies. When the difference between an HA build and an AA build drop to only about 10-15% dph (skill+bonus makeup a chunk) than HA almost has an advantage with faster channeling.

The other huge reason I'm considering keeping my HA build is the defense caps were raised to (I think) 95% reduction. This means we can potentially take 50% less damage than the previous 90% reduction cap. Only issue is.... it's sort of dependant on reaching the 70k pdef mark. Whether that's possible with meridians, titles, and avatars I dunno yet. The point is HA can now reach a higher pdef mark than AA r9t3.

Those are my two main considerations, the increase in stat points and the increase in def reduction. There are many other things I'm considering. For instance,

1. The avatars are class based and a veno avatar will give "AA stats" like higher mdef. I see this as an advantage though, since that makes up for the difference between AA and HA.
2. When RAing aoe grinding is huge. Fox form still lacks a decent aoe.
3. I am more focused on pve but I'll make mention that in PvP caster dph has always been massively important. It kills HAs (something I'd need to fear) and its what you need to kill others (something I'd lack).
4. +phys damage from titles doesn't get multiplied as much in a 255 strength build where each +mag stat is multiplied 6-8 times. Not to mention it takes 1.5 stats to increase melee damage 1% while it only takes 1 stat to inc melee damage for magic attack (for all classes).



So, just wanted to revisit this with the latest expansion. Going to reawaken now. Figured I'd stat to 500 magic then decide if i want to go HA or AA so I have a few days to decide.

Edit: Thanks Kossy, came back to edit in that I was hoping to leave r9t3 out of the equation and you'd beat me to mentioning it. The beauty of G16 is you can share HA with 3 other class and AA with 5 other classes. While r9t3 costs have dropped significantly, sharding and refining has only gone up. This was more an inquiry for those of us who never plan on r9ing a veno. They'd be my 6th choice of classes I'd r9, and I doubt I'll ever afford 6 sets of refined r9t3, and many other people have similar priorities or just plain can't afford it. I'd rather have 1 well refined and sharded set of G16 for many classes than 1 set of r9t3 moderately sharded/refined.
Post edited by Atropah - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014
    If you aren't in R9 third cast and don't intend on any form of it as endgame, heavy/robe has never been truly invalidated as its entire purpose was sacrificing potential magical offense in favor of physical offense and (more importantly) greater survivability as well as versatility with said survivability. Nothing stops a heavy veno with an up-to-date weapon from switching to arcane armor if they have it on the fly, after all.

    If you have some form of R9, on the other hand, then HA becomes obsoleted because R9 will provide better overall defense (the major point of heavy/robe) without needing to sacrifice your offense.

    So for G16 and under? This update simply helps Heavy builds do their thing with much more ease than before. If you're R9 and up, though, then there's still no real reason to have a heavy build unless you simply like it.
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Nobody wanted to join my discussion of Venomancer builds after New Horizons :(

    There's also passive skills to consider, it looks like it's 400-500 defence per level (at 8% mark), maxed out is +56% I think. There's also the attack passive (2% per level) and the Crit (1% per level) but I didn't check what's the max level for them.

    I didn't think HA is invalid per se but at that point where R9rr could simply go around in similar defences as HA while not sacrificing offence...the obvious choice was going with R9rr of course. If the choice of armor is only G16, for whatever reasons, then HA still remains at an advantage, even moreso now that the defence cap has been raised.

    I'm not sure about the physical defence of HA vs R9rr now with the cap raised and the defence passive skills and War Avatar coming into play, some would have to do the math. There's a lot to consider such as Nuema, defence passive skill and War Avatars (one could opt to having cards with lots of +physical defence then there are also cards that give +10 Str/Mag/Dex/Vit) and let's not forget S cards, leveling them and reawakening them.

    To be honest, I think nothing has really changed and R9rr defences are still probably comparable to HA* (in the physical department always) but leveling up the Nuemas and the defence passive take a lot of time and the War Avatars are...random...so..this is all kinda getting into the realm of theory.

    I do think, however, that the new update has offered more customization such as making HA stat distribution easier and giving them a better boost in magic defence etc. etc.

    * I mean things like, whatever boost a HA gets, it's the same for AA. They get more attack from cards? So does AA. They get more magic defence? So does AA and so on.
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  • Vedovis - Lost CityVedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Nobody wanted to join my discussion of Venomancer builds after New Horizons :(


    I did :( wish other venos commented on it, seemed like an exciting thing to discuss!

    anything I could have said in this thread, President Fluffy already covered xD HA is definitely easier to achieve now due to extra +stat point from rebirthing, but imo its still worse than full R9R3. However if venos want nice pdef and hp without having to spend thousands and dont mind the little attack sacrifice, its still a viable build.
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Ah I forgot to mention something as well;

    New Fox Form attack skills (once learnt) will hit regardless which makes HA/LAs higher accuracy kinda pointless unless you count the auto-attacks but quite frankly, auto-attacks won't be doing much to your enemy unless they have bad physical defence so you'll most likely want to be using actual skills.
    In PvE, lots of newer bosses have anti-APS buff so you'll also want to be using skills there. I'm not counting situations like auto-attacking normal mobs because that really doesn't matter much.

    On the flip side, Fox Form attack skills get a damage boost which takes an even better advantage of HA builds (LA too but to a lesser extent) having more Str.

    Then there's the skill damage passive skill to consider which increases damage of skills, this applies to all skills and all builds but just throwing this out there. There's also the crit passive which does make AA's crit better (moreso on Demons) but it also makes HAs even better (moreso on LAs).

    Lastly, War Avatars and Nuemas are giving +physical attack to AAs making their physical attack actually decent getting to the point that a R9rr person can still go for a pure magic build and still have decent physical damage through attacks if they like being in Fox Form mostly while not sacrificing their magic damage at all..while keeping good defences and HP...in other words this expansion just boosted R9rr endgame peeps even more.

    Back to the world of G16 Nirvana, I think all builds got great boosts honestly and this update just gave them more options of customization and personalizing the build towards what one may want. Though I personally regard LA build as inferior to AA and HAs ( sorry LAs out there :< ) but they really all got good things and I think they are still viable choices.*

    * For the record, people know from previous build comparison threads that I've been favouring AA, pure magic especially, and arguing on it but I don't consider the other builds inferior (unless Nirvana vs. R9rr you know why). I just like arguing :3
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  • Marengo - Lost CityMarengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Nobody wanted to join my discussion of Venomancer builds after New Horizons :(
    I missed it. But I'm too judgemental in this question anyway and said what I think many times in different topics: there is no point to stay in HA nowdays both in pve and pvp. Lack of mdef will lead you to death since mages gained enormous attack power. Maybe you will die less to HA classes (which is actually doubtful), but then you will drop dead instantly to mages. Pdef of full vit veno is comparable with HA one. Besides magic build is a lot more flexible, you can always restat into full def/offence, whatever you like most, without remaking your whole set.
    HA is acceptable in case if you have another HA char and can pass your gear to alt veno, you can actually be in any armor if you are pve. 8-10k hp and 5-7k pdef in human is enough to accomplish anything in pw (in squad or solo). Pvp depends on whom you fight with.

    Foxform skills damage is negligible and not necessary, good for aesthetic sensibility perhaps, if you are tired looking at similar animated human form skills b:chuckle
    IMHO
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I'm actually not sure how effective Fox Form attacks are in PvP (mostly HA builds) but I'd guess it's not bad if you're fighting lesser geared people. I did kill an Assassin by accident using Grudge Strike when I wanted to chi up on the NPC and I had left squad already (in Flowsilver Palace) but it's not something I'd personally rely on, however I thought I should mention it anyway.

    Definitely **** damage on well geared people though but still a fancy thing if people like going in Fox Form for attacks. What I was trying to say is that the boosts we're getting now make AAs' physical damage decent enough that you don't necessarily need HA build to play the Fox Form style (it's mostly applicable in PvE though) as opposed to the previously, rather crappy, Fox Form damage AAs had prior this expansion.
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  • Marengo - Lost CityMarengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I'm actually not sure how effective Fox Form attacks are in PvP (mostly HA builds) but I'd guess it's not bad if you're fighting lesser geared people
    The only thing I don't understand is why one needs to kill lesser geared ppl with foxform skills, try to catch them up, most likely let them escape, unable to stunlock, while you can kill them on distance with magic much more easily. They are lesser geared as you said, there wouldn't be any problem :)
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    That's a question for someone that plays HA/LA. I've seen a few attacking in Fox Form, mostly in NWs (not talking about the Fossilized Curse + ToP combo). Maybe they just like it, maybe they are just trying to be fancy, I don't know.
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  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014
    The only thing I don't understand is why one needs to kill lesser geared ppl with foxform skills, try to catch them up, most likely let them escape, unable to stunlock, while you can kill them on distance with magic much more easily. They are lesser geared as you said, there wouldn't be any problem :)

    You're in fox form after an amp/purge/myraid/whatever and for whatever reason an opponent is close enough to you for you to attack (happens often enough depending on the type of fight and how much your opponents are targeting you). May as well save the time switching to human to attack by just killing them there and then with a fox skill if you're able to do so.

    The bit of time you save may wind up saving you from an attack by someone that actually matters. You're not going to rely on fox form for dealing damage, even as heavy/robe, but it gives an additional option in various situations instead of needing to always be in human form to deal reasonable damage to even mid-geared opponents that catch you in fox.
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    opkossy wrote: »
    You're in fox form after an amp/purge/myraid/whatever and for whatever reason an opponent is close enough to you for you to attack (happens often enough depending on the type of fight and how much your opponents are targeting you). May as well save the time switching to human to attack by just killing them there and then with a fox skill if you're able to do so.

    The bit of time you save may wind up saving you from an attack by someone that actually matters. You're not going to rely on fox form for dealing damage, even as heavy/robe, but it gives an additional option in various situations instead of needing to always be in human form to deal reasonable damage to even mid-geared opponents that catch you in fox.

    That's true and I actually had this in mind when thinking of potential uses of the updated skills which I tried to talk about in the previous post. There's quite a few situations during which you're in Fox Form like that. This does depend on knowing the opponent is lesser geared though. I think it's pretty viable in NWs considering there are a lot of lesser geared people (or at least were last time I did NWs ages ago >.>).

    Then there's also the thing that I want to try incorporating Grudge Strike (and Dark Taboo to a lesser extent) in my playstyle for better chi management/building. Finding moments to throw it in, especially in team play where I'm in Fox Form significantly more as my team can take care of the killing (doesn't mean I shouldn't DD/CC in human too but just saying).

    However, I was also thinking of people that do stay in Fox Form to attack on purpose in which case it's something I can't answer since I prefer casting/range personally (and it happens to be most effective usually). There are people that either prefer Fox Form or just aren't fans of casting so maybe this boost (physical attack from Nuema/War Avatars, skill damage passive, HA builds etc.) is not too bad and maybe HA builds find a new way of using the skills or incorporating them into their play style (but it's also not totally limited to HA seeing the boost AAs get too).

    We actually get some better control in Fox Form now with Stunning Blow always hitting (plus 50% for 3 second stun if Demon) and the new Malefic Crush that's apparently some kind of AOE stun or whatever. Whether that's effective or not, it's up to people. I might use Stunning Blow (once upgraded) a few times though, I think it's going to be a neat situational thing.

    I'm just theorizing things here (and I'd love it if I can find uses for these new updates, I don't want to render the skill updates for Venomancers completely useless/meaningless) and I don't even know if I'm making any sense right now, in-between finishing writing my research papers my brain's working for me @[email protected]
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  • Marengo - Lost CityMarengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    OPKossy, there is something wrong with my opponents probably, but if I'm close to them and in fox form, their easy-to-see wish is run for life or at least to faith or immune b:laugh
    Again, if I manage to start casting purge/amp being in 5m radius, they may run, purge will work. But it's impossible to hit right after in most cases. Maybe our server is just full of pro kiters :D
    Sometimes it's possible to hit in fox in mass pvp when victim doesn't pay attention to you yet or out of defensive skills, but relying on such situations is out of the question. I see no point in wasting time for 300-400 damage while this time can be used more efficiently on immune, another debuff, human form dd, even fossilized curse (though it's not spammable and it's not melee, which makes it more usable in fox). Foxes draw a lot of attention and DDing calmly in foxform... you live really well in mass pk I must say b:chuckle

    There are people that either prefer Fox Form or just aren't fans of casting so maybe this boost (physical attack from Nuema/War Avatars, skill damage passive, HA builds etc.) is not too bad and maybe HA builds find a new way of using the skills or incorporating them into their play style (but it's also not totally limited to HA seeing the boost AAs get too).
    I know venos who use axes as the main wep :D They can also use bows, it's not at all impossible to play like that b:avoid
    We actually get some better control in Fox Form now with Stunning Blow always hitting
    Well, apparently better than before lol
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  • theholygiesttheholygiest Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    This is an odd discussion. The moment I see an r9rr veno outlast a G16 veno, no other variables like refines/shards/buffs/ect, to psysical damage... Well, I'm rerolling. G16 HA is the only way to go for an endgame HA veno, but is it bested by R9RR? It depends. If you want to nuke things left and right, yes. If you want to survive a squad wipe, or make use of the fox form skill tree, no. Most venos just try to keep it simple and use foxy for looks and purge/amp, but what can you do? Then there's LA which I'm still wondering how that works out, dealing less damage with magic AND melee, and having lower defenses overall. Sure, you crit more... to deal about what the other builds deal per hit, ijs. I'm not saying HA is by any means superior, but sheesh, it's way cheaper than buying r9, and imo it beats everything except r9, and totally worth the damage reduction xD
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    This is an odd discussion. The moment I see an r9rr veno outlast a G16 veno, no other variables like refines/shards/buffs/ect, to psysical damage... Well, I'm rerolling. G16 HA is the only way to go for an endgame HA veno, but is it bested by R9RR? It depends. If you want to nuke things left and right, yes. If you want to survive a squad wipe.

    I disagree with that for reasons I have already stated in my first post. R9rr isn't about "nuking things left and right". A Venomancer's first priority is to support the squad through debuffs, purges and CC (such as Parasitic Nova). Actual damage comes second but in the instance that you can achieve good defences without sacrificing damage it's just becomes the better option for the obvious reasons.

    Previously R9rr Venomancers could hit the physical defence cap (at 90%) making HA's extra physical defence kind of pointless since it didn't count beyond the 90% mark. Something like +11 NW Necklace with R9rr recast ring and a Sky Cover/Star's Destiny +10 or higher with physical defence shards worked too and there are a lot of variables among gear engravings, Meridian and titles.

    Granted, the R9rr person would have less physical defence in human form but there's things like Bramble Hood, Blazing Barrier and then Feral Concentration, Windshield, Expel, Ironguard/Pan Gu and Sutra. There's a considerable amount of options for someone to counter physical damage.

    If you're a teamplayer, you'd be in Fox Form a lot and popping to human form in certain situations for certain needs like Ironwood and Parasitic Nova. Everytime you pop in human form you can use one of the things I mentioned above (I usually use Blazing Barrier) as a protection for incoming damage.

    Another thing is that a lot of people focus too much on "woah so much physical defence!" and forget how much casters hurt nowadays with their their crazy magic multipliers. Of course, this does depend on the server and the class population it has but physical damage isn't the only "danger" there is.

    What happens now though? Among various boosts we got and the raise of the cap HA does get the edge at physical defence again however this boost isn't limited to HAs only and I'm certain R9rr will still hit the cap with Nuemas/passive defence/War Avatars but this won't be so soon (people still leveling Sky, still collecting cards etc.). Basically they raised the cap because with all the boosts everyone would hit said cap (except LAs I guess) so they had to raise it.

    I'm not saying HA is by any means superior, but sheesh, it's way cheaper than buying r9, and imo it beats everything except r9, and totally worth the damage reduction xD

    That along with sharing gear with multiple toons is one of the reasons one would choose to stick to G16 which I agree with. The budget and the refines/shards do play a role also. Yeah, I've seen those +3/+5 R9rr Venomancers drop because they lack refines/shards while +10 G16s last (I recently PK'd with, in a team, a G16 +10 BM with Vit stones or so and she stayed alive just fine). Then I've also 1-shot HA Venomancers because they couldn't take the magic damage.

    I agree that with the recent expansion HA is potentially a better choice for G16 Nirvana Venomancers that PvP a lot (PvE really doesn't matter what build you have these days) thanks to the cap being raised (and other things like extra attributes that make a HA's life easier) or people who's budget has limits. Alternatively for people that want to use Fox Form attacks and whatnot but the new Nuema/War Avatar system is boosting physical attack for AAs too and then there's R9 ring which gives both types and Sky Cover/Star's Destiny which a lot of AAs use making their physical attack not too bad buuut most AAs don't go for the Fox Form attacks so that doesn't matter much. Not saying their physical attack will be same as HA's.
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  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I've found that foxform allows you to auto-cultivate on melee mobs until your weapon is broken using just a couple skills (and no charms or auto-pot stones), at least for heavies. Triple spark (to restore mana)->leech (to restore health)->auto attack. I stuck a walk behind enemy node before leech, but doubt it is necessary if you have good damage.
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  • Azura - Lost CityAzura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    HA venos valid again? Once again, no.

    I think people go Heavy armor for one of three or the combination of three reasons: because they want high physical defense; because they want to "survive squad wipes"; and because they want to be different. Going HA for the first 2 reason makes the build invalid.

    Like Desdi said before, an arcane veno can achieve the same physical defense as a heavy veno. I don't have an idea of how much physical defense a fully buffed veno in heavy armor can get, but trust me: you don't neeed more than 40k. Remember that physical defense gets capped, so even if you a bigger number on your physical defense, you may still have the same physical defense as a fully buffed arcane veno.

    Going to heavy armor to survive wipe squads. What do people mean by this? Surviving after a cleric dies, or what? What's the point of surviving anyway? If you want to survive at all cost a "party wipe", then you can just use feral concentration and then tele out from the dangerous situation. Any kind of veno can do that. I should add that mobs don't limit their attacks to physical attacks. Some mobs have magical attacks. A heavy armor usually has lower magic defense, so if a mob is wiping a squad with magical attacks, this could beat the purpose of the build.

    I think the valid reason to go heavy is to be different, even if the build isn't practical. HA venos, with this new expansion, will have more than enough points to get their heavy gear, and will get stronger, but so are the standard arcane venos. The arcane venos can get more magic or vitality, therefore they will increase their survivability and damage. HA are still at the same distance behind the arcane build.

    Summarizing, HA builds sacrifices survivability vs magic, and attack power for high physical defense while Arcane build can get it all.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Well, I should mention that the OP is talking about G16 Nirvana gear only which I didn't disagree with but R9rr came into the discussion anyway so I responded to it.

    ^ the above comment isn't directed to anyone specifically but for future reference.
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  • edited February 2014
    HA venos valid again? Once again, no.

    I think people go Heavy armor for one of three or the combination of three reasons: because they want high physical defense; because they want to "survive squad wipes"; and because they want to be different. Going HA for the first 2 reason makes the build invalid.

    Like Desdi said before, an arcane veno can achieve the same physical defense as a heavy veno. I don't have an idea of how much physical defense a fully buffed veno in heavy armor can get, but trust me: you don't neeed more than 40k. Remember that physical defense gets capped, so even if you a bigger number on your physical defense, you may still have the same physical defense as a fully buffed arcane veno.

    HA-veno can have better overall defences with all those reincarnation stat points giving freedom over ornies(no more taking points from ornies!). Why so? For example T3-HA-plate gives 2301 p.def and 984 elem. res.(totalling 3285 defence, not counting in defence +%-stats T3 has) and R9rr gives 713 p.def. and 2250 m.def(totalling 2963 defence) so the difference ish about 300 defence without buffs.

    At high refines of ornies the refine bonus' makes up for the difference of these pieces(WS G16 p. belt+12 has 300 more p.def. than elem. version has elem. res.). Cube neck would make up for the difference between R9rr legs and T3-legs.

    As R9rr boots and wrists don't have real p. def. bonus stat like legs and plate has, T3-boots and wrists gives T3-HA-veno slight advantage in defences.


    Going to heavy armor to survive wipe squads. What do people mean by this? Surviving after a cleric dies, or what? What's the point of surviving anyway? If you want to survive at all cost a "party wipe", then you can just use feral concentration and then tele out from the dangerous situation. Any kind of veno can do that. I should add that mobs don't limit their attacks to physical attacks. Some mobs have magical attacks. A heavy armor usually has lower magic defense, so if a mob is wiping a squad with magical attacks, this could beat the purpose of the build.

    The point ish that HA-veno can tank until others are back in most situations. Why run when you can tank? <.< Besides HA-veno has better defences than a barb, magic needed for weapon gives nice little multiplier to elem. res. from ornies.

    I think the valid reason to go heavy is to be different, even if the build isn't practical. HA venos, with this new expansion, will have more than enough points to get their heavy gear, and will get stronger, but so are the standard arcane venos. The arcane venos can get more magic or vitality, therefore they will increase their survivability and damage. HA are still at the same distance behind the arcane build.

    Putting vit. to caster's build ish a bad joke really. Even though veno having slightly higher HP-gain from vit. than other casters, it's still quite bad. Going HA and refining high gives HP an arcane veno can't reach no matter what build.

    In basic DPSing(AA-R9rr throwing spells and T3-HA APSing) HA-veno's slightly better. Calculating with similar refines and shardings Kitty got 32798 DPS for AA-veno and 35548 DPS for HA-veno.
    In real gameplay the difference would be even greater as caster would have interval caused by lag between skills, casters need to swap between human form and fox form for Amp(even more interval between casting) and AA-veno can't amp their damage with genie debuffs as well as HA-veno(genies tend to have far more defence-reduction debuffs but no wood res.-reduction ones available).
    Because of AA-veno's massive damage multiplier from magic spark isn't nearly as effective as for HA-veno and even less due to HA-veno attacking almost 4 times when AA-veno attacks once.


    Summarizing, HA builds sacrifices survivability vs magic, and attack power for high physical defense while Arcane build can get it all.

    /sarcasm

    The builds Kitty based her calcs on:
    HA(Kitty's build before reincarnating, Kitty's been too poor to afford better ornies): http://pwcalc.com/191c4dbd890d05b1
    AA(Exactly similar refines and shardings for comparison, end-game ornies): http://pwcalc.com/36c3dd0a3e3ddb1b
    Calculated as pre-reincarnation due to pwcalc not supporting all this new stuff. And it can be said that HA-veno benefits more from cards and points, that extra magic for AA-veno ish suffering from quite diminishing returns.

    This should be enough math for proof, Kitty thinks.f:worry

    E: And Kitty should emphasize that this ish more of PVE-point of view, PVP ish far more about DPH than DPS. Kitty's gears are too bad for PVPing 1vs1 against some end-game(except maybe BMs). Kitty's not PVP'd in ages x_x'
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
    Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
    Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    To be honest, in PvE the build really doesn't matter all that much these days. HA Venomancers can get pretty decent magic damage with G16 gear giving attack levels and all these boosts from Nuema/War Avatar/pasives/Meridian/Titles and have good defences to survive. Likewise, AA builds aren't all that squishy anymore considering decent refines and shards which are pretty easily obtainable (+7 with event gold and Morai shards) nowadays.
    Then again, most people only take the Venomancer for debuffs, not DD so it almost doesn't even matter as long as the Venomancer lives somehow lol.

    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • edited February 2014
    Well, Kitty thinks that a casual veno ish a debuffer, but a good veno ish a major DD on top of that. f:cute
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
    Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
    Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)
  • Marengo - Lost CityMarengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The builds Kitty based her calcs on:
    HA(Kitty's build before reincarnating, Kitty's been too poor to afford better ornies): http://pwcalc.com/191c4dbd890d05b1
    AA(Exactly similar refines and shardings for comparison, end-game ornies): http://pwcalc.com/36c3dd0a3e3ddb1b
    Calculated as pre-reincarnation due to pwcalc not supporting all this new stuff. And it can be said that HA-veno benefits more from cards and points, that extra magic for AA-veno ish suffering from quite diminishing returns.
    Calc doesn't support all new stuff, that's right, but replacing it with chineese stuff also doesn't work well. For example, our version of r9r has extra 100 stats as bonus. It matters.
    Why does your arcane veno wear mdef necklace in calc?
    Mdef is not less important than pdef.

    Putting vit. to caster's build ish a bad joke really. Even though veno having slightly higher HP-gain from vit. than other casters, it's still quite bad. Going HA and refining high gives HP an arcane veno can't reach no matter what build.
    Completely disagree. I was about same opinion till recent updates, but now it changed a bit.
    r9r - 100 points
    reawakens - 152 points
    self gained stats - ~150 points.
    That all makes full vit veno win about 400 points in comparison with mag. It's around 5k hp difference (adding 5% hp necklace bonus and r9r top bonus) + some defence boost. Not counting HP buff yet.

    Another advantage is a pet. Full vit veno will always have stronger pet, because veno's build affects only pet's hp. Similar geared full vit and full mag venos will have pet with same attack (considering they inherit same attack value) but full vit will always get more hp on her pet.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    youtube.com/elmarise
    pw art ◊ tinyurl.com/q6ca7ar ◊
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