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Grudge Strike skill thoughts and info

Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
edited February 2014 in Venomancer

The latest expansion has brought upon new changes in the game that includes an update to skills for all classes.

Much like in my previous thread Demon Redstone Venomworm assessment, I'll be reviewing one of the new Venomancer skills. This time I'm writing about Grudge Strike which is a merger of Befuddling Mist and Fox Wallop.


Video.
Grudge Strike animation and tests.


Skill descriptions.
Grudge Strike

Requires Fox Form
Range 5 Meters
Mana 160
Cast 1.0 seconds
Cooldown 3.0 seconds
Chi Gained 10
Weapon Unarmed, Magic instrument

Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
Attack all enemies in front of you with a flurry
of blows, dealing base physical damage plus
5055.
Lowers the targets' Accuracy by
70% and increases
their channeling time by
35%. Also increases
cooldowns by
125% for non-player targets.
Lasts
8 seconds. Never misses.

Sage version increases channeling time by 50%.
Demon version generates 20 Chi.


Befuddling Mist

Range Melee
Mana 160
Channel 0.7 seconds
Cast 0.5 seconds
Cooldown 3.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Void
While in fox form, the caster sprays a bewitching fog inflicting
base physical damage plus
2281.0 and reduces the
target's accuracy by
70% for 8 seconds.

Sage version deals an extra 800 damage.
Demon version also decreases enemy's speed by 30% for 3 seconds.

Fox Wallop

Range Melee
Mana 160
Channel 0.7 seconds
Cast 0.5 seconds
Cooldown 3.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
Delivers a powerful melee attack, inflicting base physical damage plus
3059.0. Reduces target's channeling and casting speed by 35%
for
3 seconds.

Requires 20 Chi and Fox Form.

Sage version has a 50% chance to cast without consuming Chi.
Demon version gives a 20% chance to make all hits critical for 5 seconds.


Review.
Please keep in mind that this is my personal opinion/assessment and experimenting. I tried to be objective but it's still going to be what I think.

The skill description is quite messed up for this skill. What it actually does are the following:
~On monsters and any non-player target. Applies 70% accuracy debuff, applies 35% channeling debuff (50% if Sage).
~On players in PvP and any player target. Applies 70% accuracy debuff, applies 35% channeling debuff (50% if Sage), applies 125% attack rate debuff.

The Assassin in the video that I tested with had 2.86 attack rate and 11480 accuracy with the gear they were wearing when I recorded. Fossilized Curse's 100% attack rate debuff and 300% acurracy debuff changed those values to 1.43 and 0 respectively. Grudge Strike's debuff changed those values to 1.25 and 7341 respectively.

The damage increase is noteworthy in PvE but probably negligible in PvP. I didn't do enough tests for this though, perhaps it's not too bad on AA targets with low physical defence. HA and, perhaps, LA builds should enjoy the damage increase. My physical attack when testing was only 6.6k-7.2k unbuffed.

Grudge Strike is frontal AOE only.

In the case of the Demon version, note that the skill does not calculate Befuddling Mist's original chi gain which was 10. Unlike Demon Crush Vigor that includes both its original chi gain (10 chi) and the Demon bonus (100 chi if it procs), Grudge Strike is only 20 chi. I was a little disappointed in that matter~


Reasons to upgrade to Grudge Strike.
~More Damage. It's mostly beneficial for PvE. It's most effective on HA and LA builds but it's still pretty decent on AA builds.
~Another attack rate debuff for PvP. It's not as effective as Fossilized Curse altogether since the 70% accuracy debuff is nowhere near as strong and the duration is just 8 seconds but if you happen to be in Fox Form you might as well throw it in. I can see work mostly against Archers that heavily rely on auto-attack and DPS, probably works best in group PvP scenarios. I don't think I'd use it much in 1v1 unless I had room for it.
~Chi gain. If you're Demon...well some bits of extra chi to gain which you might as well get. The 20 chi is pretty low but the cooldown of the skill is fairly low too. You can spam the skill and build chi faster, along with Crush Vigor. It would probably work best once you have Dark Taboo too. You will need a target, NPC or player.
~Hardly anyone uses Fox Wallop. I'm not aware if HA/LA builds that use Fox Form attacks a lot, use Fox Wallop frequently (I didn't use it much on my HA Venomancer because of the chi consumption) but most people I know don't really use that skill so....might as well merge it.

Reasons to keep Befuddling Mist & Fox Wallop.
~You use Demon Fox Wallop regularly (for Crit proc). I think it's self explanatory.
Post edited by Desdi - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Befuddling Mist has always been a very short ranged frontal AOE.
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Okay thanks, shall update now!
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  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014
    Level 12 befuddling mist! Yay!

    Fox Wallop? What's that? Are you talking about that odd fashion you need to dump spirit into to learn befuddling mist?

    (Guess what my opinion on Wallop is and how I feel about this merge!)
    (Insert fancy image here)
    image
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    opkossy wrote: »
    Level 12 befuddling mist! Yay!

    Pretty much f:laugh
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  • TJTLegend - ArchosaurTJTLegend - Archosaur Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    So Grudge Strike aps debuff doesn't work in world map pvp?
    It only works in duels and arena type instances?
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    So Grudge Strike aps debuff doesn't work in world map pvp?
    It only works in duels and arena type instances?

    I didn't say anything about arenas.

    ~On players in PK and duels (consequently TW & NW most definitely). Applies 70% accuracy debuff, applies 35% channeling debuff (50% if Sage), applies 125% attack rate debuff.

    Unless PK on your server has a different meaning, that's precisely open world PvP. Since it works in PK and duels, it's safe to assume that it works in TW and NW as well but I can't test that right now.
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  • X_volcano_y - HarshlandsX_volcano_y - Harshlands Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    to me it doesn't sound very useful...the debuffs are great but 8secs.....f:angry
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I don't want to judge the skill just yet, before actually using it in PvP though as it stands there isn't much of a reason not to upgrade to begin with. It's really the "might as well get it" kind of skill.
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  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    After watching that grudge strike video I suddenly have the urge to race chocobos in FF7.

    Thanks Desdi. D:
  • X_volcano_y - HarshlandsX_volcano_y - Harshlands Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I don't want to judge the skill just yet, before actually using it in PvP though as it stands there isn't much of a reason not to upgrade to begin with. It's really the "might as well get it" kind of skill.

    yea it wont hurt to learn it but the question is whether I will get the chance to use it.
    it does seem promising in pve tho some bosses buffs/debuffs/attack can really use a delay....I don't know if it will affect the blasts of the bubble boss in HDD...or the buff rate of steel in tt.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    After watching that grudge strike video I suddenly have the urge to race chocobos in FF7.

    Thanks Desdi. D:

    How is that even related D:
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  • mol1mol1 Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    this combined with genie blinding sand may become OP vs archers
  • TJTLegend - ArchosaurTJTLegend - Archosaur Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I didn't say anything about arenas.




    Unless PK on your server has a different meaning, that's precisely open world PvP. Since it works in PK and duels, it's safe to assume that it works in TW and NW as well but I can't test that right now.

    ooooooooooooh k.b:laugh
  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    to me it doesn't sound very useful...the debuffs are great but 8secs.....f:angry

    8 second debuff with a 3 second cooldown... you can keep the debuff up continually (provided you stay in foxform; not so great if you plan to be in human most of the time.)
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  • X_volcano_y - HarshlandsX_volcano_y - Harshlands Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    8 second debuff with a 3 second cooldown... you can keep the debuff up continually (provided you stay in foxform; not so great if you plan to be in human most of the time.)

    the question is what shall keep the one I am spamming it on from killing meb:chuckle
  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014
    the question is what shall keep the one I am spamming it on from killing meb:chuckle

    The fact that you're just so GOSH DARN ADORABLE and OW QUIT BITING ME WITH YOUR-- Aww isn't it so cuuuuuuuute! b:cute
    (Insert fancy image here)
    image
  • X_volcano_y - HarshlandsX_volcano_y - Harshlands Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    opkossy wrote: »
    The fact that you're just so GOSH DARN ADORABLE and OW QUIT BITING ME WITH YOUR-- Aww isn't it so cuuuuuuuute! b:cute

    LOLf:laugh
  • Azura - Lost CityAzura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    To me this skill is really nice. I had no use for the skills I lost because they always missed, and this one never misses. And although 20chi per hit doesnt sound like a lot, this can be super helpful...

    How many times have you tried to use chi burn, a myriad, or ironwood, and didnt even have chi for that? It's happend a lot to me =(. Now I can just use this 1st, and then the skil I want. Other times I won't want to go out of fox form, so while I'm a fox I can spam this skill on anyone, and gain a spark really fast.

    Things will just get better with dark taboo.
  • Vedovis - Lost CityVedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Congrats on the new skill! I currently have the merged skillbook, unable to learn due to the lack of OBefuddling Mist sellers on my server :< Can't wait to learn it :D
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  • TJTLegend - ArchosaurTJTLegend - Archosaur Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    To me this skill is really nice. I had no use for the skills I lost because they always missed, and this one never misses. And although 20chi per hit doesnt sound like a lot, this can be super helpful...

    How many times have you tried to use chi burn, a myriad, or ironwood, and didnt even have chi for that? It's happend a lot to me =(. Now I can just use this 1st, and then the skil I want. Other times I won't want to go out of fox form, so while I'm a fox I can spam this skill on anyone, and gain a spark really fast.

    Things will just get better with dark taboo.

    I can't +1 this enough.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I want to try it in PvP but I haven't had the chance or time to do it :[
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  • Bezdna - DreamweaverBezdna - Dreamweaver Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Reasons to keep Befuddling Mist & Fox Wallop.
    ~You use Fox Wallop regularly. I think it's self explanatory.

    Could you please explain this? What does Fox Wallop offer that Grudge Strike does not?

    Sage Fox Wallop+Befuddling Mist:
    2.4seconds spent to cast both, with 1.3 seconds remaining on cooldown until next cast
    320 mana altogether
    +0 Chi (-10chi on average for wallop, +10 chi from mist)
    Deals 2*(base attack)+6140 dmg BUT ONLY HALF OF THIS IS AOE
    Inflicts +35% chan for 3 seconds, -70% accuracy for 8 seconds

    Sage Grudge Strike:
    1+? seconds to cast, with 2 seconds remaining on cooldown until next cast
    160 mana cost
    +10 Chi
    Deals 1*(base attack)+5505 all aoe
    Inflicts +50% chan and -70% accuracy both for 8 seconds
    (And has a range 5 Meters???)
    NEVER MISSES

    ~~~

    The way I'm reading it, you're sacrificing:
    - some damage 1v1, assuming you have high patk

    ...but gaining:
    - damage in an aoe situation
    - extra chi
    - saving mana
    - longer chan debuff
    - stronger chan debuff
    - a short range, but this can be a bad thing because usually when you're in melee you don't want your enemies to be attacking you with their ranged attacks
    - 100% acccuracy


    At first I thought the 100% accuracy was a significant improvement, but then I remembered it doesn't affect normal attacks. So if you're primarily in fox form, you still have to have some gear that augments dexterity/accuracy, because the skill cooldowns will not allow you be casting all the time.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Could you please explain this? What does Fox Wallop offer that Grudge Strike does not?

    There really isn't much to say there. If someone uses Fox Wallop for whatever reason, they may not like the idea of merging the skill into Befuddling Mist.

    Do I think Fox Wallop is good or useful? No. Do other people use it? I cannot answer that myself though I do believe most people don't use Fox Wallop nowadays but I felt obliged to mention it regardless in case there are people that do use the skill (keep in mind that this is for both or either PvE or PvP).


    At first I thought the 100% accuracy was a significant improvement, but then I remembered it doesn't affect normal attacks. So if you're primarily in fox form, you still have to have some gear that augments dexterity/accuracy, because the skill cooldowns will not allow you be casting all the time.

    This could be one reason one may not want to merge them. It's really up to them and up to their playstyle. My opinion is in favor of the merger but someone else might not think the same way.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
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  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2014
    Could you please explain this? What does Fox Wallop offer that Grudge Strike does not?

    Demon version has a 20% chance of raising your crit rate to the maximum possible for 5 seconds.

    This does not make it worth using, mind you, but you did ask. b:chuckle
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    image
  • Vedovis - Lost CityVedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Finally found a befuddling mist seller on LC, so yay!

    Using this skill during NW today really solidified my decision as a demon veno to learn this skill. I don't miss either befuddling mist nor fox wallop, but the AoE fan phys damage was great to use after purging a target - AA classes were hit with phys damage and increased casting time, HAs/LAs missed and hit slowly.

    Plus, it's spammable, with a 3 second cooldown for an 8 second effect. And the chi gain is just yummy * 3*
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  • Satyrion - Sanctuary_1389862626Satyrion - Sanctuary_1389862626 Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I got Redstone but decided to get rest of the skills later, as attacking in foxform aren't really my playstyle. I will eventually get them one day as I like the idea of having all skills possible for my veno. My priority is the passive skills for now, I've been lvling the passive defense skill and its so lovely.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Most people will do that because the skills aren't anything game breaking. I'll be heading for the passive ones too.
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  • Veneir - DreamweaverVeneir - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,541 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    *pops in out of nowhere*

    Fox wallop on its own (as apposed to being a combination) is mostily only useful if you're an HA fox veno and need to keep aggro on a boss if you're doing a dungeon and the tank, since venos don't have any aggro skills so have to skill spam to keep aggro on them.
    That being said, anyone have any way to test how the aggro mechanics of this skill work x3? is probabily the same as befuddling though.
    "Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
    I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
    First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    *pops in out of nowhere*

    Fox wallop on its own (as apposed to being a combination) is mostily only useful if you're an HA fox veno and need to keep aggro on a boss if you're doing a dungeon and the tank, since venos don't have any aggro skills so have to skill spam to keep aggro on them.
    That being said, anyone have any way to test how the aggro mechanics of this skill work x3? is probabily the same as befuddling though.

    Ven :3

    I'd also guess it's like Befuddling Mist with nothing else in particular. The damage increase is rather interesting though.
    Yesterday, after a finished Flowsilver Palace run, I left squad and started using Grudge Strike on the NPC to chi up before I get teleported out.

    I hadn't noticed one of the Assassins was in the range and I killed her in two hits (2.5k and 5k crit I think). Granted the Assassin wasn't well geared (probably just the basic APS set up) but it seems like that damage is not that bad (even for my poor physical attack). If I get to have a TW this weekend (though I doubt >.>) I'll try throwing it on some AAs to test just to see how it is. It's certainly something I wouldn't rely on for killing though.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
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  • Veneir - DreamweaverVeneir - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,541 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Ven :3

    I'd also guess it's like Befuddling Mist with nothing else in particular. The damage increase is rather interesting though.
    Yesterday, after a finished Flowsilver Palace run, I left squad and started using Grudge Strike on the NPC to chi up before I get teleported out.

    I hadn't noticed one of the Assassins was in the range and I killed her in two hits (2.5k and 5k crit I think). Granted the Assassin wasn't well geared (probably just the basic APS set up) but it seems like that damage is not that bad (even for my poor physical attack). If I get to have a TW this weekend (though I doubt >.>) I'll try throwing it on some AAs to test. If anything, I can use the lesser geared people to build chi while killing them <.< >.>

    *purrs* Hi Desdi x3
    The extra damage makes sense to me, since it's taking two skills that were used for damage-- skill spamming for fox forme damage is much more effective than auto attack--and it if took away one skill and only had the same damage that one alone had, with the same cooldown, blahblah.... it'd be decreasing the damage foxes can do.

    I like how you can do the damage of both (sans about 200 additional damage and the extra base damage but base damage can come from next auto-attack so it's negligable) and use only the mana of one :3 Mana use is why I normally only used one of the two in PvE scenarios unless it was a boss and it took way longer to kill stuff only using befuddling ahhhh but then I got a nix and.... *awkward stare then the mana wouldn't have been worth it and pfffff look at me going on about something like mana geez x3*
    I never did get to use my nix in a dungeon after the update.....

    Nnnnnn that attack damage sounds really good for an AA foxie, yeah :3 Though I can't judge too well for your gear because I never did get my gear upgraded from tier one green lunarv(my lunar buddy quit >:) and it's been a really long time OTL
    "Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
    I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
    First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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