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Demon Redstone Wenomworm assessment

Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
edited November 2014 in Venomancer
Hello fellow fluffy Venomancers.
The latest expansion has brought upon new changes in the game that includes an update to skills for all classes.

Venomancers got various updates or merges to their skills as well. In this thread I wanted to talk about Demon Redstone Venomworm (merging Demon Ironwood with Demon Blazing Scarab) because it's a special case. Whilst the Sage one is a no-brainer when it comes to updating, the Demon one is not exactly an update...it's, like I said, a special case.

I'm making a new thread about it because I don't want it to get buried in this thread. I was undecided on what to do and I think a lot of Demons feel the same way. Maybe this helps them decide what they want to do.



Videos.
Redstone Venomworm animation.
40% and 180% animation differences.


Skill descriptions.
Demon Ironwood Scarab
Range 27.0 meters
Mana 175.0
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 8.0 seconds

Throw a splinted bug at the enemy, dealing Wood damage
equal to base magic damage, 300% of weapon damage, and 2770.0.
Costs 25 Chi.

Demon version only has a 20% chance of success,
but will instead reduce Physical Defense to 0
.


ΩRedstone Venomworm
Range ?? Meters
Mana ??
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 8.0 seconds

Fling a venomous sandworm at the target, dealing base
magic damage plus 300% of weapon damage plus3578 as
Wood damage. The worm burrows into the target for10
seconds, lowering its Physical Defense by 40% and
dealing 600% of weapon damage plus 6427 as Fire damage. Appears to last ~9 seconds.
Costs 25 Chi.

Demon version has a 25% chance to reduce Physical Defense by 180%.
Note: The debuff icons are the same for both 40% and 180%.



Review.
Please keep in mind that this is my personal opinion/assessment. I tried to be objective but it's still going to be what I think. People may or may not disagree. Debates are welcome but keep them civil.
The overall assessment/review comes from my personal overall knowledge & experience, a few chats with other classes and how they see the debuff.

Edit 8.05.14: With the passive defence skills available, 180% is even less effective now. I think Ironwood's debuff remains really strong and becomes even better now because of the passives (possibly the best debuff). The downside is that it's proc rate is very low but that's something you're okay with anyway if you learnt the skill to begin with.With all this said, take this review with a grain of salt.




Reasons to upgrade to Redstone Venomworm.
-You only PvE. In this case there really is no reason not to upgrade. The guaranteed 40% physical defence proc will give you a better place in farming squads, your physical DDs will be happier.
-A lot of PvE, a little PvP. In this case maybe upgrading is the better choice for the reasons I said above. The Redstone is a really great skill for PvE purposes.
-You do mostly group PvP (of any sort). In group PvP (including TW) the guaranteed debuff is pretty nice for your team mates, especially in a physical DD heavy squad.
-You don't 1v1. Same reasons as above.



Reasons to keep Demon Ironwood (not upgrade).
-You 1v1 a lot. Demon Ironwood's proc plus Arcane Antinomy is one of the best combos to kill the opponent and in some situations, it might be the only way to kill them (eg. they outgear you).
-You don't want to lose Blazing Scarab. Blazing is a great skill to help with building chi in human form. It does hurt your chi making a little when you lose this.
-Ironwood's proc is the only way to kill sometimes. Either for yourself or for your squad, Ironwood's 0 pdef debuff is the only way to kill enemies sometimes. It might be a person that you can't kill yourself because your DD is low or it might be a very tanky person with high physical defence (and HP) in the enemy team that your group is unable to kill.
-Ironwood's debuff is the strongest physical debuff there is. Similar cases are above, the debuff is really strong and Redstone's debuffs are inferior to it.
-It's difficult to tell which debuff you proc'd with Redstone. While there is a way to tell which debuff you have proc'd (watch the video), it's still not very noticeable especially in PvP when there's all sorts of flashy skills going on.


Overall conclusion/opinion: Don't upgrade to Demon Redstone Venomworm if you PvP on a regular basis. However, if you did upgrade and don't have time/money to change cultivations to get your Ironwood back, try to make the best use of your Redstone.
Post edited by Desdi - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I haven't seen any tests to make sure that Demon Ironwood still debuffs player defense to 0 when it procs. It may have been stealth nerfed to 100% pdef debuff like Myriad.
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    All the tests I've done so far indicated it's still 0 physical defence.
    If someone discovers otherwise I'll update the first post.
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  • Azura - Lost CityAzura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    All the tests I've done so far indicated it's still 0 physical defence.
    If someone discovers otherwise I'll update the first post.

    Probably the target has too low defense. 180% is a lot.

    Restone is very nice, but if the demon version doesnt have different icons for each debuff, I'm not gonna learn it.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Mayfly and I were talking about Demon Ironwood potentially having been ninja nerfed (in which case Redstone wouldn't have been a nerf) but all tests I've done showed Ironwood is still 0 physical defence debuff.
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  • Anonome - DreamweaverAnonome - Dreamweaver Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    ... but if the demon version doesnt have different icons for each debuff, I'm not gonna learn it.
    +1. Looks snazzy, though! b:dirty Even still, at the moment I can't justify to myself losing that 0 p. def debuff, even if it's not so reliable. Might change my mind in the future, who knows. I'm definitely in no rush. Review is very nice, thanks c:
  • Vedovis - Lost CityVedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Shame Lv11 Blazing Scarab is hard to find. Skill seems interesting.
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  • Azura - Lost CityAzura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Shame Lv11 Blazing Scarab is hard to find. Skill seems interesting.

    Open books
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Ehh books. That's mostly your only way of getting it but it can also end up costing a lot lol. However you can sell other skills to get some of your money back.

    Ironically, when I was trying to get Demon Amplify Damage, Blazing Scarab was the first skill I got from trying.
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  • EIayne - DreamweaverEIayne - Dreamweaver Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I adore this new skill, myself. I had both demon ironwood and demon blazing scarab before the update (been trying for bramble for a while now, got nearly everything but.)

    I love the fact that it's a guarantee'd 40%, as it used to be rather frustrating when you'd throw 20, 30 ironwoods and none would proc. The fact that this increased the proc rate, gave a guaranteed debuff, and nearly doubled the proc's power has me very happy.

    Looking at the blazing scarab aspect of it, yes, you lose a skill that you used to use for chi. but that's what cloud eruption is there for; +, I no longer spam my myraid rainbows so much trying to get a debuff. Chi = saved. Furthermore, I loved blazing scarab and usually would try to cast it immediately after ironwood. This redstone skill makes blazing scarab not only more spamable, but saves the the time of casting it, making my veno overall more efficient.

    Plus lets be honest here, it's AMAZING that they finally gave veno's a standup form skill that didn't have some sort of circle under our feet with the same cast animation. It's quite pretty :)
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    The fact that this increased the proc rate, gave a guaranteed debuff, and nearly doubled the proc's power has me very happy.

    Looking at the blazing scarab aspect of it, yes, you lose a skill that you used to use for chi. but that's what cloud eruption is there for; +, I no longer spam my myraid rainbows so much trying to get a debuff. Chi = saved.

    The 180% debuff is weaker than original Demon Ironwood but still hurts a lot against an AA/LA however since both procs share the same icon, you're unable to tell which one proc'd therefore it's sucky in 1v1 scenarios when you're relying on the Ironwood + Arcane Antinomy combo to kill your enemies (there are other ways too of course but that's a very effective one).

    You also have to consider the fact that Venomancers that PK will most likely have a Faith genie with either AD or Expel. In that case, Cloud Eruption (affinity restrictions) is not really an option so you can't consider it for chi in every situation. In addition to that, Myriad is often used for the mind break too so in most situations you should still use it (more chi consumed) but in PvE, it's true that I stopped spamming Myriad like I used to.

    Edit: I have yet to see how Grudge Strike and Dark Taboo chi gaining will affect things but...getting those skills with take a while because of what you need to do to get the materials.

    Because of the above reasons, it's not as easy to choose to upgrade. I do agree that it's nice to have a new human form attack animation though, instead of the same one over and over!
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  • EIayne - DreamweaverEIayne - Dreamweaver Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    The 180% debuff is weaker than original Demon Ironwood but still hurts a lot against an AA/LA however since both procs share the same icon, you're unable to tell which one proc'd therefore it's sucky in 1v1 scenarios when you're relying on the Ironwood + Arcane Antinomy combo to kill your enemies (there are other ways too of course but that's a very effective one).

    You also have to consider the fact that Venomancers that PK will most likely have a Faith genie with either AD or Expel. In that case, Cloud Eruption is not really an option so you can't consider it for chi in every situation. In addition to that, Myriad is often used for the mind break too so in most situations you should still use it (more chi consumed) but in PvE, it's true that I stopped spamming Myriad like I used to.

    Because of the above reasons, it's not as easy to choose to upgrade.

    I PVP on my veno as well. my genie has both AD and cloud erruption, as well as some others (mire, ep, tree, ect) it's not the greatest genie but it gets the job done. as a demon veno I use cloud eruption a lot (sages with their 35 chi fox form and master li's technique...)

    and I don't have arcane autonomy yet.. so... not sure what to say on that one. That having been said some debuff is better then no debuff, and even if it's only a 40% it would still cause some damage. (how did you kill your enemies when ironwood didn't or just refused to proc? this combo of ironwood/arcane autonomy would still work, if not quite as effective.) and yes, the mind break debuff from myraid is also lovely but it seems every squad I run with the cleric spams the hell out of their elemental seal, as I ask them not to use dimensional so that they won't overcast ironwood... So, I don't cast it almost at all anymore outside of PVP.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Well, I was just mentioning some situations as an example to why it's not as easy to upgrade because you have to consider a lot of things unlike Sage which is a no-brainer.

    I don't 1v1 on a regular basis because I prefer group PvP scenarios so I don't have a in-depth knowledge on how Demons cope with Ironwood not procing (it also depends on what class you're fighting). That is, however, one of the reasons I did upgrade; Redstone is more beneficial to your team as far as I've observed.
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  • EIayne - DreamweaverEIayne - Dreamweaver Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    1v1 isn't something I typically do either. I suppose it boils down to how you play your veno; the way I see it, I do my best work in NW when I'm running around purging, debuffing, ect.

    I think veno's are there not to be beastly godly things with 57489023574839 attack and defense levels that can do anything they want just because they're there... I view veno's more as the class that litterally makes hell for other classes. we're highest, rivaled only to clerics on kos lists in pvp because we have a highly reliable purge, (once it starts casting, they can't run. only AD or apoths will stop it) we have every debuff in the book available to us, we steal chi, and we send our pets after people and generally make life hell for them. Because of this, it wasn't a hard choice for me at all. even in a 1v1 situation, I'll be using my nix (physical damage) against any given class. a 40% proc is better then nothing, and it's freed up a lot of my casting time to use stunning blow more often. (demon ;D faster cooldown.) So now not only do I get my DoT's and debuffs, but I also get my stuns lol.
  • Marengo - Lost CityMarengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    ...every squad I run with the cleric spams the hell out of their elemental seal, as I ask them not to use dimensional so that they won't overcast ironwood... So, I don't cast it almost at all anymore outside of PVP.
    If I see that someone else spams physical def debuff, I just don't use ironwood. Problem solved b:laugh
    I don't 1v1 on a regular basis because I prefer group PvP scenarios so I don't have a in-depth knowledge on how Demons cope with Ironwood not procing (it also depends on what class you're fighting).
    Well, that's not the hardest thing (in theory). Try to catch the right moment and debuff your target after charm tick. If it procs, you cast Arcane antinomy, if it doesn't you don't use AA and wait for another chance or try to manage with nova.
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  • Vedovis - Lost CityVedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Open books

    10% chance to get at 450 tokens a try.. with near-30k token price I think I'll wait to try my luck :p
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    If I see that someone else spams physical def debuff, I just don't use ironwood. Problem solved b:laugh

    Well, that's not the hardest thing (in theory). Try to catch the right moment and debuff your target after charm tick. If it procs, you cast Arcane antinomy, if it doesn't you don't use AA and wait for another chance or try to manage with nova.

    I'd usually go for stacking debuffs (amp/venomous/nova etc.) and used Ironwood as main nuke skill while hoping for an Ironwood proc or a Myriad mind break. If everything fails run like mad because..hey, we're Demons after all f:laugh (figuratively speaking that is).

    I haven't done any sort of PK with Monkey though to see how it is (did a TW but not the same thing). As soon as I got on holidays we had the expansion and I became a noob again f:meh
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  • Marengo - Lost CityMarengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I'd usually go for stacking debuffs (amp/venomous/nova etc.) and used Ironwood as main nuke skill while hoping for an Ironwood proc or a Myriad mind break. If everything fails run like mad because..hey, we're Demons after all f:laugh (figuratively speaking that is).
    I would go too, but since it's so random and others have it too in most cases, I don't bother with it unless I see no one else tries to debuff :)
    I haven't done any sort of PK with Monkey though to see how it is (did a TW but not the same thing). As soon as I got on holidays we had the expansion and I became a noob again f:meh
    What I like about this combo is that it's not that chi consuming (unlike nova which needs 2sparks + 50 chi to bewitch if you want to purge before it) and quite fast. Also you don't need to debuff your target with anything else. Nix would be ok with it's 3 sec stun too + human form veno stun.
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  • Azura - Lost CityAzura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    10% chance to get at 450 tokens a try.. with near-30k token price I think I'll wait to try my luck :p


    Thought it came out from old book pages too, but now that I remember, I think not.

    Btw, now you lose only half of your money if you open packs, maybe is time to open b:chuckle
  • Vedovis - Lost CityVedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Thought it came out from old book pages too, but now that I remember, I think not.

    Btw, now you lose only half of your money if you open packs, maybe is time to open b:chuckle

    I think I've used up all my book luck when I got demon amp & bramble in two books.. knowing my luck I'd get melee mastery and wood mastery again, for the sixth time. Wish I was kidding. f:strive Besides, with Xmas around the corner I've been wasting my coin on petty gifts :p
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  • Seacoral - SanctuarySeacoral - Sanctuary Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Got around to some testing today:

    On an unbuffed psychic and barb, the 40% reduction worked as expected, and the 180% reduction brought their Physical Defense to 0.

    When I gave the barb full buffs (Cleric/BM/Panda form), the 180% reduction reduced his PDef by about half.

    My opinion? The physical defense reduction on a buffed target is no longer near as significant as it was. The increased damage from the skill and the DoT damage are great, but Blazing Scarab was a large part of my chi gain during a fight, and losing that really screws up that aspect of my playstyle. It is a powerful skill, but in my opinion Demons lose out on more than they gain.
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'm going to get a SweetieBot after my tail but I didn't want to make a whole new thread about it instead of updating this one.

    Someone told me a little detail about Redstone that I had never noticed. That's quite embarrassing I guess, I should have tested it out myself... Anyhow, Redstone has different animations for the 40% debuff and the 180% debuff.

    Here's a video: click!


    I also updated the first post a little.
    Overall conclusion: Don't upgrade to Demon Redstone Venomworm if you PvP on a regular basis. However if you did upgrade and don't have time/money to change cultivations to get your Ironwood back, try to make the best use of your Redstone.
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  • Marengo - Lost CityMarengo - Lost City Posts: 771 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Thanks, Desdi, very helpful tip.
    And I see I was wrong. They actually cared of us, thought about this... b:sad
    Nice try, pwcn, but still no, no b:laugh
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Thanks, Desdi, very helpful tip.
    And I see I was wrong. They actually cared of us, thought about this... b:sad
    Nice try, pwcn, but still no, no b:laugh

    I thought so too. b:laugh

    I don't want to sound whiny, but I'd still prefer different icons because in mass PvP it's hard to notice the animations sometimes, especially when a person gets hit by other people, too. The upside is that other people won't notice either. I know the 180% debuff can't compare to the 0 pdef of Ironwood, but it's certainly stronger than the 40% one.



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  • Fail_BM - Raging TideFail_BM - Raging Tide Posts: 929 Arc User
    edited November 2014
  • Asterelle - SanctuaryAsterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'm going to get a SweetieBot after my tail but I didn't want to make a whole new thread about it instead of updating this one.

    Sweetiebot lets people bump their own threads even though the forum rules don't actually make that exception.
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  • SweetieBot - LothranisSweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited November 2014


    Sweetiebot lets people bump their own threads even though the forum rules don't actually make that exception.
    It sounds dangerous to me.
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  • Asterelle - SanctuaryAsterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It sounds dangerous to me.

    I think you are overstating the danger. Ultimately though the decision lies with me and I'm too lazy to change it.
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  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited November 2014
    I think you are overstating the danger. Ultimately though the decision lies with me and I'm too lazy to change it.

    And I can live with this since it helps threads that stickies link to. b:chuckle
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  • Azura - Lost CityAzura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Redstone has different animations for the 40% debuff and the 180% debuff.

    Here's a video: click!

    The difference is that there are some dark orange clouds around the target?

  • Asterelle - SanctuaryAsterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The difference is that there are some dark orange clouds around the target?
    I think it's the jump spin during cast. I wonder if that's viewable to other players as well.
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