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arty's veno pvp thread~

Artymis - DreamweaverArtymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
edited June 2013 in Venomancer
Oh my lord, you guys. I am really really shocked at how little our class discussion seems to span on the pvp side. and i did check the "PVP Ponderings" section too and it is all the same question - what is the best build for veno? f:confused like omg idk, how you want to play is what is best for you? f:angry

my reason for making this thread is to share and learn and absorb from other venos across the board on how to be strong and survive against other classes. 'cause i feel there are not that many good venos (sorry guys!) and i think it is because people feel that we don't DD well or we rely too heavily on the pet or something silly. both of these i would like to testify as false*. then other people tell me that it's because not many know how to play as it's a hard class. (oh uh i kinda cuss alot, i'll try not to)(i also use alot of parentheses (i don't mean to (sorry)))

so this post needs some organization 'cause currently things are going all over the place so for your benefit here: this will be organized as such - my not so nice introduction to y'all and then videos that have taught me or i find special. got it? great 8D




i'm arty and idky pwi thinks it's cool to capitalize my name? but it's not the end of the world either. i've been around since may 2009 and only been on dw. outside of pwi, i'm a finance and poli sci major with a background in media. i am relatively new to pvp actually. i was always afraid to even as first cast r9 but now i got no inhibitions, i know i'm gonna die. i play on a laptop with my a/d keys switched on, i don't click my skills (except genie), i rotate through the bars using v and `, and i use the laptop mousepad, not a real mouse. don't ask me how i play, i just do xD

sorry sage venos, i'm demon and you're welcome to reply with good things for sage but tbh, i don't know much about sage except that nova and lending hand have chances to keep your spark, you got lucky with the advanced fox form, you can get another spark from soul degen, your amp is 5% more than ours, and your purge has a pretty tiny aoe range. also the bramble is :( and uh sprint puries.

ehh other things about me and my playing style is that i used to be LA, a wannabe aps toon in all honesty, then i raged after a breakup and went r9 instead. then i became the first full r9rr veno on my server, can't say for certain on other servers but it was kind of a race between me and another veno which i don't think she even remembers setting up the race but it gave me the motivation to do it anyhow.

this is me: http://pwcalc.com/98677f75863da456
(so yeh you can see i am 1 squishy *** mthrfkr qq)
my goal is this: http://pwcalc.com/2d1bd48aa1c5156c
i'll be getting the gems in the next couple of weeks but calc doesn't show you i want the refined r9 ring, the nw cube neck, or dominance. and after i get those i'll be working on the eventual +12 and chicken stones for the next cast or rank or whatever.

i also value HA and LA as decent pvp builds, although uncommon especially LA :s but for me, i really do prefer being AA so naturally i only go to fox for a few skills. so if anyone wants to contribute over these things, you're more than welcome to! as my philosophy for veno is that there isn't just 1 right way to play this class which i think makes it difficult for people at times.




and i did check youtube for videos but nothing impressed me. except a few things which i saw somehow randomly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvkPJ5pKlPw
this taught me something - i had never considered frost scarab to be of any use to me because i felt it was pretty fail leveling up and then i saw her use this and was like oooh. and it is actually quite cheap because so many other venos think the same, i got mine for 400k ikr xD so now i use this quite often once i got it demon -> frost, lucky, iron. will tick their charm for sure if not kill 'em. idc if it cost a spark, it will stop them from doing **** :3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL_tgi75EQ4
this one i like 'cause in the middle of the video, she purges a spark. i love to do that but i never see other venos doing it. just the same old "purge barb" mindset ~_~' she also continues to use lucky and amp, i get why and i mean she can kill the person but could be more effective with other chains.

i haven't stumbled across any others and it's not like i've pilfered through heaps upon heaps because i'll watch some and it isn't anything i haven't done or considered so i stop watching. however, i would love to add more if they were brought to my attention or i might start making videos.




other things i can contribute are this and i do not see many venos doing these:

mo zun's taunt + chi burn + CRUSH VIGOR. so like about a year ago, there was a discussion about mo zun's taunt on my faction forums about how mo zun's taunt will work through invincibility (either pan gu or ig) and correct me if i'm wrong but it does for both. if you don't automatically realize what this means, it means alot of classes won't be able to do what they were just about to do. idk if this is news to y'all or not but i am only just recently seeing people stealing other people's chi. also this chain, as demon, i really love. not only did i just steal 2 sparks for 30 chi, i got another spark (potentially) from using crush vigor and each time they get a hit, they lose 12 chi (15 if sage), granted puri don't proc. and i should clarify that when i say steal, i mean take away 'cause i don't get the chi unfortunately. but steal is a 4 letter word versus 10 characters to write take away. it is divine to use on barbs for tw but i use this for anyone really.

can we also move past the idea of saving the purge for just a barb or cleric? or just using amp? and fyi amp and crush are both curses so they will overwrite each other, be careful. i purge everyone i don't like or feel needs to be purged. i really like purging too 'cause i find it funny when people lose their buffs. i know i am so mean xD and i may i mention also that i do love the range for mo zun's taunt?

and lastly my new favorite chain, brought to my attention by my old friend The__Sun, who had his friend Feone share it to him. i just made it better. :3 now this is really specialized for demon venos/r9rr venos but can be augmented to however you play for sure, just think about it. ok so this does require alot of chi so be smart. bramble hood + blazing barrier = 115% dmg reduction (imagine in fox ;)) still hitting on you? hope for a puri proc/demon sprint/fortify -> feral (can feral in fox nowadays) still? oh my lord, now choose one that you didn't use last time and ig? hood should be free to use again (provided you got chi and you can at this point if you cloud erupt once you cast hood the first time) and by the time hood is over, barrier is free. this means you have 54 seconds of near invincibility (hood and barrier don't really count as invincibility...). if you didn't understand that garble here:

barrier first for cd purposes + hood (fox or not, your choice) erupt asap, wait 15 secs
summersprint -> feral, wait 10 secs
fortify + ig, wait 12 secs
hood again, 15
barrier again, 15 (ps if you die with barrier on, res as quick as you can 'cause the buff lasts through death :3)

also you can use transfuse at this point if you want 'cause you don't need a full spark to use. i actually used this in nw carrying the flag and someone pm'd me asking me if i was full jades +12 and i laughed, saying i was flawless citrine xD i didn't have to go as far as feral 'cause i got like 3 puri procs and capped. but still i use this alot now.

*this is from the very top, i didn't think it fit well in that paragraph of what i wanted to say but guys, we got lucky that our signature wep is the pataka. sure, at first, i was like "ew it's ugly and it's weird, doesn't give my girl a good posture and why the ** is there pdef on a wep?!" this was on my r8 pataka and i do remember LoCoWoKo (spelling) was like "your r8 why aren't you using the wep?" i told him i thought it was stupid and he didn't call me stupid in return but i knew he thought it. however, i eventually grew to like it! especially because we have the potential to hit higher than other mages. and if you do it right, you can. yes, i sat down with a wiz, mys, and psy and compared the matk (with r9rr wep +10 saph gems) we got the biggest range (as you should hopefully know) and if you peak 700 mag, your damage is so beautiful. and contrary to popular belief (popular being the fact that veno is like some dying race or people are just dumb, idk) that our hits are pretty consistent. when my r9rr wep was just +3, i would consistently hit for 10k on bosses, 4-5k on people. now that i'm +10 is naturally alot higher. secondly!!!! the pet thing, idky venos don't use their pets anymore or when they do it's to hide behind them. i think our "damage nerf" is because we have pets right? so use it as an extension of your damage and show that veno power. an old friend, Chibiusa, complained that people would kill the pets quickly but have you checked the new pet base buffs? can survive a bit more that way :) sure it is kinda expensive but it's worth it i think :3




so i think that is all i can think of on my own and like i wrote above, (i am like super longwinded and wordy, sorry....) i want to know how other venos play and use their class. i am always trying to survive and play defensively 'cause i know people don't like getting purged or having their chi stolen or hell, even dying to a veno but it's fun! so i write this in hopes that there are some other well-played venos, thank you for reading ^___^ and please do contribute f:flower
Post edited by Artymis - Dreamweaver on
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  • BungaSakura - Raging TideBungaSakura - Raging Tide Posts: 902 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    hm.. this is stupid question. i barely pk in open area. is bramble hood works in pk open area? thanks in advance. my friend told me is not working.
  • Artymis - DreamweaverArtymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    the damage reduction certainly works but i mainly mess around with archers so i'm not sure if the reflection works too (would like to assume yes). not a stupid question btw 'cause i know normal bramble don't work in open world b:kiss but it certainly do work in nw ^_~
  • BungaSakura - Raging TideBungaSakura - Raging Tide Posts: 902 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    hehe i know in nw is works. but i put NW is instance area like TW, tourney and ToB :)
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    About the purging thing...I think it also depends on what kind of squad you're in when it comes to TW.
    Of course, it does depend on your faction's strategy but I'm almost always on defence (because it suits me better) so naturally I focus on the key targets which are the person who pulls the catapult (usually barbarians) and the healer (usually clerics). However, if there's not cata around I'll go off to purge other targets (usually high DDs that pose a threat).

    When you're in offence you usually go for the highest DDs and generally people on the KoS list. I've only been in offence once though and I didn't really like it so I claimed a spot in leading defence squads instead.

    As for builds...with R999 being pretty much the top tier gear available as of now and with a rather large gap from G16 Nirvana, Venomancers just go for the pure magic build. Although, I've heard a few still go for a vit/hybrid build.
    I think the latter works well if you're pure support so your priority is to survive as much as possible to debuff targets without focusing in actual killing.


    Well, I hope this can turn into an interesting PvP discussion thread. I'm quite interested in it as I'd love to learn new tips even though I'm not much of a PvP person b:chuckle I've only got experience in TW and very little in NW (timezone making it hard to attend those). I don't PK at all though (too much drama on my server).
    My gear is also not anything fancy, just full G16 Nirvana +7 with cube/warsong ornaments. Working to get r9 some day P:
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • helovesuhelovesu Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Does a veno actually have to rely on her pet?

    I saw from the video, so many times her niex got killed. And everytime she revived the pet, it took some times which can give you vulnerable moment.

    I hope that the new pet system shall overcome this.

    Btw, i seldom do PK or PvP otherthan TW. Those 2 things must be different.

    When in TW, my role is to debuff (and try to not seek for actual killing)

    Nice thread, so i can learn from here b:laugh
  • Artymis - DreamweaverArtymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    @desdi, you are 100% right about what role you play in tw. i prefer being in the cata squads (mainly just so then i have assurance i will be buffed xD) so naturally, i only purge high priority targets. although when i played defense, i would never leave fox form (was too squishy otherwise) and only purge barbs. oh and for those who use vent, i did call out who i purged on vent. no point in purging if no one on your side knows about it.

    on your builds paragraph, i personally don't see the reason to not be pure as you got refining and can shard with citrines if you feel you need the hp. but i'm chilling with 12k hp unbuffed, 16k hp buffed. and i just spoke with someone concerning sharding on a full vit versus half citrine/half garnet. first post here which you commented on :3 but i'm not sure if you saw the reply but for me, i want as much pdef as possible without losing hp which is why i won't be going vit. although i do agree having vit works if you only wanna be support but that ain't for me :p

    @helovesu
    i don't rely on my pets, i can't. but it is nice having the nix around for the defensive stun (put nix on defense, sin pops out, and it stuns them) and bleed. and i don't feel vulnerable without my pet but i do prefer having it around, as i wrote in my first post, i view it as an extension to my damage. and yes as the girl in the video did, i take time to res my pets too but not like this in her 1 on 1 in most situations unless they're long 1v1s. i generally wait till either i die or the other person dies before i take it out again.
  • Veneir - DreamweaverVeneir - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,541 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I just wanted to say that I'm stalking this thread. :3
    I don't see PvP veno stuff alot, either; the only thing that comes to mind is on some server forum, people talking about how some veno faction leader never even went into fox forme in tw which was terrible >:!!
    I actually don't like purging clerics a bunch in nw because I know they'll just buff themselves right back up again, unless there's already a concentration on them at the moment. o-o
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  • Azura - Lost CityAzura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Well my build is pure vitality veno. Here is my build, fully buffed.

    I went pure vit for the massive pk and tws we sometimes have in Lost City. Since, I'm the evil veno that takes everyone's buffs away I would get targeted a lot (and even more now). I really like my build because thanks to it it's rare when I die. With this build I can help greatly my teammates, and we often win outnumbered because they don't have buffs (they did have, but I purged them all), and my team does have buffs. This vit build is also great for NW. I'm the one who always carry the flag.

    The downside of my build is that it's not good for 1vs1, but who cares about that really. Even though, I still can kill a lot of players, thanks mostly to parasitic nova.

    Like a month ago I went pure magic for 2 days, and it pissed me off. Some sins were randomly one shotting me (zerk-crit), and other players were killing me while I was trying to cast a spell. Playing vit veno and pure magic is different, and I wasn't ready for being full magic, so I went back to pure vit. Maybe I will go back to pure magic once I get the new r9-ring and when I +12 my cape and helmet. When I was pure magic I realized my physical defense wasn't high enough, which is why I was getting killed to zc.


    As for my genie. I have a 91Lp Discipline with its initial skill. The skills I have, besides the initial one, are: windshield level 10, whirlwind level 1, extreme poison level 10, soul of fire level 10, domain level 10, faith level 10, and fortify level 1. I can't remember my genie stats, but I think it has 75 magic, and the rest is on vitality.
    helovesu wrote: »
    Does a veno actually have to rely on her pet?

    I saw from the video, so many times her niex got killed. And everytime she revived the pet, it took some times which can give you vulnerable moment.

    I hope that the new pet system shall overcome this.

    Btw, i seldom do PK or PvP otherthan TW. Those 2 things must be different.

    When in TW, my role is to debuff (and try to not seek for actual killing)

    Nice thread, so i can learn from here b:laugh

    I don't bother much with my pets, sadly. When I pk I use them rarely because they are useless atm. I hope the coming content update, which is about pets, will change this because venos and pets are one. Without our pets is like we are only playing half of our class.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    oh and for those who use vent, i did call out who i purged on vent. no point in purging if no one on your side knows about it.
    Good point >.> and one more reason people should use vent, at least to listen if not talk b:surrender
    on your builds paragraph, i personally don't see the reason to not be pure as you got refining and can shard with citrines if you feel you need the hp. but i'm chilling with 12k hp unbuffed, 16k hp buffed. and i just spoke with someone concerning sharding on a full vit versus half citrine/half garnet. first post here which you commented on :3 but i'm not sure if you saw the reply but for me, i want as much pdef as possible without losing hp which is why i won't be going vit. although i do agree having vit works if you only wanna be support but that ain't for me :p

    Venomancers are just way too damn versatile!
    Overall, I believe it plays a huge role on what exactly you want and do. TW only? Pure support? Offence? Pk too? @[email protected] Personally, I went pure mag path; I feel squishy at times but I couldn't give up on my damage and even with my average gear (because nowadays G16 nirvana is pretty average xD) I still get to land some nice crits and sometimes 1-shot LA/HAs b:dirty Plus, I PvE more than PvP like mentioned above


    Pets~ yeah, relying on pets is a huge mistake. I use the phoenix for the stun and the upcoming skills seem rather nice and useful though I doubt they will greatly effect the overall PvP for Venomancers but it may improve it regardless.

    I'm pretty excited though; I want to see how the pets will affect, improve and change playstyles in both PvE and PvP. I think we'll have a lot to talk about once the content update gets over here!
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  • Artymis - DreamweaverArtymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    @azura, for sure /O\ oh man my pdef unbuffed is 3.7k hahaha but that's why i will soon be going garnet and acquiring these nice new nw upgrades although i did the math last night (avoided studying for a test last night to wake up and realized i didn't have to take it) and the prices are kinda scary.

    star's destiny (nw sky cover) will cost 460m; assuming you only make and not buy your sows
    cube neck: defiance - 460m (excluding what it takes to make the g16 pink 1) and "assuming.."
    r9r ring - 870m "assuming..."
    and emperor tome - 900m (this includes cost to make dominance) "assuming..."
    which puts all those upgrades as a total cost of 2.69b and this is without refining all the damn things.

    my genie seems to be opposite of yours too which makes sense as your gear is opposite of mine. i rely on my genie for defensive purposes, she's a zeal w cloud erupt + abs dom + fortify + top + hp + ep, with a skill leftover for when she hits 102. (my genie finished leveling before i did, she's waiting on me b:surrender) although i am currently looking for a longevity because those seem to be the better genies.

    @desdi, hehe yes :3 my faction requires vent to the point that you won't get paid for tw if you're not in your squad's room.

    hm i don't go to west that often actually but i pk with close friends. keeps the gs cost down. i do weekly tourney which is fun and i do alot of nw which is where i put what i do with friends into practice. ofc i do tw as well but i don't pk as much as i'm leading the cata squad and need to sit back sometimes and check positioning - this is another unnoticed part of pvp i feel. where you stand is so important. so much that it determines how long you can survive. i constantly check where my squad mates are in relation to the cata and the opposition. 'cause really the cata has a huge sign on it saying "aoe me" so if you're too close and squishy, you gonna die. and if you're too close to opposition, a big duh you got a high chance of dying 'cause they will all target you xD but too far away from the scene just means you're no use either. i get it tho if you ran away to live or rebuff or whatever. that's good.

    anyways you both mentioned new pet skills. i haven't heard any of this. i am new to these forums so i kinda live under a rock since i mainly just troll my faction forums ;) someone care to enlighten me? :D

    also does anyone have a nice video they'd like to share or perhaps a chain that hasn't been discussed? i do like discussing gear and it's nice to see how different venos play based on their gear but only talking about gear doesn't make this thread very different from the rest of the threads here :p

    perhaps, how do y'all incorporate your gear to make your playing style best for you? if that didn't make sense, what about your gear allows you to make the chains you do or survive or kill or idk? xD
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    If I was able to participate in every TW and NW I think I might have went the defensive path as well since I like to play support, but like I said, I can't due to my timezone so my choices are affected a lot by what I do in PvE as well. Either way, it was a nice input to have from a Vit Venomancer and see how things are from that point of view/playstyle.

    @Arty - I record all the new things together with a few other people (ecatomb, dupethefile mainly) here. I keep it updated regularly so it's up to date to everything new we discover. I'm also planning to start writing a guide for it with the translated things etc. but I'll be posting once the content update is launched on our version.

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  • Azura - Lost CityAzura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    You want to add Garnet Shards (g11), Artymis? Those are good shards, but aren't they too expensive? (50m each in LC)

    All the non-r9 gear that I have has a reason for which I chose them, and it was mostly to increase physical defense.

    Sky covers, I guess I don't have explain myself here much. Except that although you lose some channel and magic attack, it's really worth the trade off. With 2 sky covers +10 your survivelity increases greatly. It will be so sweet when I get the r9-recasted ring because that ring will not only be way better than a sky cover in terms of defense, the best of all is that it's actually a magic ring, and the best one.

    I use a LA helmet. It may be strange, but the reason for this is to have more hp, crit and defense. Ofc, for a pure magic build arcane helmet would be better, but I decided to trade a bit of potential magic attack for more survivelity and crit, which I really lack.

    And finally, the cape I got. I chose it because of the +500 physical defense part, and the increased walking speed f:hehe. Maybe someday I will recast that cape, but it's not really necessary.

    So, what was my point?
    Perhaps you should consider getting new accesories or update the ones you have to increase your physical def, instead of buying garnets. Not only this will be better in the long run, but also cheaper. Besides, if we suppose that you someday reach ur dream setup ( star's destiny, cube neck: defiance, r9r ring, emperor tome) those garnet shards will be almost useless to you because they won't add much survivality once you get certain physical defense.

    If you get the same ornaments and accesories I have, you will be better off with citrines because they help you survive more agains magic and physical attacks.
  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    anyways you both mentioned new pet skills. i haven't heard any of this. i am new to these forums so i kinda live under a rock since i mainly just troll my faction forums ;) someone care to enlighten me? :D


    What's known or surmised is in this thread. Basically, two new legendary pets are in the pipeline (one of which will be the veno's answer to Storm Mistress), and all the legendaries, a good number of the rares and a few commons will be able to evolve at level 100, receiving a skill exclusive to the pet type, and up to 2 personality skills that will depend on what training you give them. This system went live in China April 2, so we're probably looking at a June-July rollout here.
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  • Artymis - DreamweaverArtymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    on dw, they are only 40m b:chuckle so they are same price as vit stones. i was originally gonna go full citrine. and i guess i could since i'll be getting those but i much like the idea of 20k pdef in hume with 17.5k hp 8D

    no i don't think it is strange. my cleric friend, Aeliah, went the same way. and hm even tho unbuffed i only got 3.7k pdef, i can actually survive a long time thanks to defense charms and apo and what not. i got purged the other night in nw and took 2 hard instances to actually kill me, in which i did not die or get rebuffed by said cleric friend or others in the squad.

    i do agree that the shards won't add terribly much once i get those nice things. in which case i guess i could reshard to full citrine like my original intention or just keep the garnets 'cause i do like that pdef and what if i get purged or so? but yeah, it's either gonna be sky cover or garnets next but seems my farming partner and i've decided garnets to match the price it'll be for his new nw warsoul bow we got him. b:shy
  • Artymis - DreamweaverArtymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    What's known or surmised is in this thread. Basically, two new legendary pets are in the pipeline (one of which will be the veno's answer to Storm Mistress), and all the legendaries, a good number of the rares and a few commons will be able to evolve at level 100, receiving a skill exclusive to the pet type, and up to 2 personality skills that will depend on what training you give them. This system went live in China April 2, so we're probably looking at a June-July rollout here.

    yes hun, i did read it and was really excited. seems the rest of my faction veno sisters live under a rock so i linked it to them and are happily discussing it b:chuckle thank you <3
  • mercifulemperormercifulemperor Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Love the thoughts! I already love playing veno, and this thread makes me even more excited about veno, especially endgame. b:victory
    I don't pvp much, but I love duels, and so think of random things from time to time.
    I would appreciate some feedback on some combos I was thinking of:

    1) "Stunlock combo". Disclaimer: this was thought of with regards to sage venos (sorry demons--I appreciate you a ton and think you're awesome, but sage worked better for this combo). The thought was: Lucky scarab (4 sec stun sage), parasitic nova (8 sec seal/freeze), lucky scarab again (4 sec), bewitch (6 sec seal) + stunning blow (if you don't like foxform or don't think you can hit, frost scarab works well enough by slowing)(8 sec freeze for stunning blow), pet bash (3 sec stun), then lucky scarab again (4 sec), for a total of ~30 seconds of stunning/dd time.
    If you had the chi (either by cloud erupt or sage/demon lending hand on self(and getting lucky)), you could try: nova (8 sec), lucky (4 sec), bewitch(6) + stunning blow(8), pet stun (3), lucky (4), slow them for at least 3 more secs by frost or arcane antimony or use some fun genie skill if you have it, then nova (8) and lucky (4) again, for a total of ~37 seconds of stunning/dd time.
    I realize both of these combos have holes, namely a) proc chance (95% lucky, 95% nova, ~80% chance pet bash, ~95% frost). Also, during the first suggestion there is a 1 sec of nothing between the pet bash and the lucky's cooldown. In the second suggestion, there is that 3 sec of no control besides slow, and the issue of chi. However, I thought it was relatively effective and might be worth the trouble. Feedback is appreciated!

    2) "Tank combo". This was actually really similar to the one you mentioned, arty--I was pleased someone else had come up with something similar. b:pleased My idea used absolute domain though: hood + barrier (15), AD (5)(+2 antistun), use the 2 sec anti-stun at the end of AD for go into Feral (10), demon sprint or fortify into IG(12), hood (15), barrier (15), and depending on genie, AD again (5).
    A couple things on this: first, the issue of chi--once again, you can cloud erupt, or sage/demon lending hand on yourself and hope for a good proc. Second, to have added control (or anti-control, rather), there is always natural synergy (15 sec antistun) to consider--you could use it right before feral to continue into the IG without need of fortify, purify proc, or demon sprint. You could also use it during a hood period to not be stunned during hood. Third, you could space out the hood and the barrier--there would be less defense, for sure, but it would last longer. And I agree, throughout this if needed you could transfusion, or use metabolic boost/nature's grace.

    3) "Barb killer". This one is purely theoretical, I don't have the genie or skills to try this, but....You know how it's really rough trying to knock through some barb's hp pool, especially the ones with nice magic ornies and hp charms?
    This combo considered that they might have a magic charm, too. Basically, after ticking their hp charm, use malefic crush (sage is preferred for this combo), smack him for 3 secs then use chaotic spirit (hope for switch), then dd that last little bit of hp for the win.
    Here's the math behind it: barbs, though they may have hp in excess of 40k, almost never have mp above 2k (most might be somewhere about 1.75k). We'll say for this example that this barb has 1.8k mp. Using malefic crush (sage) drops 1800 mana over 3 secs. In the first sec, his charm will tick at 75%, putting him back at 1.8k, then drops 1.2k over the next 2 secs. Then, chaotic spirit (60% chance of working, but can be raised via genie dex) swaps, putting his hp at a 1/3 it's normal value while his hp charm still has ~6 more secs before it ticks again. If he has no mp charm, his mp could drop to like 1% of normal value, making his hp at swap 1%. This makes the remaining DD relatively easy if you can kill him in that time.
    Yes, this has holes as well. If he has auto pot or uses an herb, the point is moot since he gets more mp than he looses. Also, if he invokes in the last 6 secs before charm tick, it's nearly impossible to kill him even with 1/3 hp.
    However, this combo has a very high chance of catching them off guard, and seemed interesting. Opinions and feedback?

    4) "Cursing up a storm". In a support situation, one needs to be able to maximize the efficiency of others. In general, sage soul degen would be lovely for a starting tech--drop their max hp.
    However, the curses widely depend on situation, and a skilled veno should use their own discernment to judge when one or another should be used. I came up with a couple scenarios:
    a) trying to kill a flag carrier in NW. Sage soul degen is lovely, once again. Demon soul degen is also nice, but not to start off, unless it's an LA class. Purging is a must, though timing is situational. It's really funny to purge someone as soon as they use their 15 sec max speed/antistun pot, and watch them slow to a crawl in befuddlement before dying. If they are r9rr or very powerful, they may try to go on the reverse offense, so you could wait until they spark to purge their offense. If they are tanky, using crush vigor right while everyone is wailing on them (especially barbs) lessens their capabilities. Amp is wonderful--absolutely use it, but once again, situational timing. It overwrites and is overwritten by other curses, so use it when you know some powerful DD is backing you up. Otherwise, you might be better off ridding the opponent of their skill abilities by crushing vigor. Myriad rainbow is lovely when you're backed up by squadmates who know what they're doing.
    b) 1v1: sage degen, purge if buffed, amp. Crush vigor would not help much in 1v1(too few hits), and demon degen is better for squads--few venos rely on accuracy to kill.
    c) squad aid: sage degen the tank, demon degen the archer or sin, crush vigor on anyone taking a lot of hits, amp on the one you really want dead (like cleric), purge the sparking ones or the most dangerous. Myriad rainbow on anyone that you feel lucky hitting with backup.

    Really, with curses, the biggest thing is the situation--use as your veno judgement dictates. b:pleased


    Thanks! Your feedback on these ideas would be greatly appreciated! b:victory
  • Kiszmet - Heavens TearKiszmet - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Wow, a lot of input on this thread :). That's good but it makes a lot of posts very long and I apologize in advance for skimming some and repeating any information that my have been said.

    First of all, there isn't a lot of info on PvP for venos because a lot of venos do it differently and disagree with each other over which is "the best." It's not as simple as comparing DD build vs APS build vs Nuke build because for venos there are different styles and discrepencies among all those builds and all are possible for a veno.

    Let's start out by saying I am sage HA veno, I rely primarily on phys attacks and fox skills. I can't speak much from an Arcane standpoint so I won't go into that particular strategy. One thing I will say is one should be careful about combining fox and arcane skills. Theoretically they should work well together but fox has a 6 sec cooldown so if you are going into fox for an amp or a purge you are stuck in it for a considerable amount of time. Because of this many venos forego combining those skills because it leaves HA's vulnerable in caster form and AA's vulnerable in fox.

    Fortunately many skills can be combined within both trees. What I will post here are actual and effective manouvers I use for HA fox in NW and TW and I will leave the magic skills for someone else.

    "Stun Lock" Shutdown: I have been cursed at repeatedly for using this in NW's. My favorite line so far is from an R9 archer who told me "Is that all you know how to do?" to which I replied. "Your'e dead, do I have to do anything else?" R93's believe they should be invincible but this combination leaves them vulnerable for at least 10 sec in which they get killed by APS sins, or other S3s or R93s. All skills are fox skills-- Stunning Blow (Freeze) + Bewitch (Seal) + Purge + Amp + Fossil Curse (no att speed or evasion). This combo will usually burn 2.5 to 3 sparks and requires a decent Acc. Due to the long cool down of several of the skills it can only be used every 2 min or so. The skills are combined to create a stun effect, preventing the use of IG (but won't stop AD) and can be broken with genie. However the beauty is very few genie skills will break both the freeze and the seal and those that can are expensive.

    Invulnerability chain: (This one requires genie skills and can be used in or out of fox) I have been called "haxer" repeatedly for using "multiple irnoguards in succession" ofc all venos know this is not the case. Start out with Natural Synergy before you are attacked or shortly before you engage in combat + Feral Concentration +skill/att for 7-8 sec + Fortify + IG + Badge of Courage if you didn't use Fortify and/or Skill/att for 7-8 sec + AD (if you still have genie energy) and/or swtich to caster (or not if you are already in caster) and use Bramble Hood + continue attacking... If done well this can buy you a whopping 20 sec of invulnerability with additional time in bramble hood. Blazing Barrier can be used as well but only prevents 30% of damage so isn't quite as invulnerable. This will usually cost 3-4 sparks of chi with more depending on the skills used. Take God's or White Teas.

    Endless Regeneration: This one is the bane of barbs, BMs and Sins who like to attack through bramble guard, though Barbs have similar skills that can counter it. This one is best done in HA fox form where melee damage against me is only 200- 500 per hit so other venos will probably not receive the same benefit. Keep mana full via pots or not burning it through skills. If your opponent is unskilled with regeneration, or simply isn't paying attention, they will kill themselves. Attack with Leech and use HP pots till you are at 1/2 - 1/3 HP + Soul Transfusion + Attack with Leech while using HP AND MP pots + use genie healing skill (both ToP and Second Wind will work depending on genie) + Att with Leach while using HP and MP pots + Soul Transfusion again :P. I have kept battles going for almost 3-4 min against BMs and barbs using this combo where we will either stalemate and give up, someone screws up a regen, someone spikes, or we get killed off by eachother's friends. This costs very little chi but will burn through potions and genie stamina reserves. Timing and attention are everything.

    Ofc this is not the end of the list but those are three of my favorites. Try them out if you want to but remember, as I said before, due to the wide range of veno builds they won't work for everyone.
  • Vedovis - Lost CityVedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So awesome reading all of these strategies for PvP - while something I don't do often [apart from NW], I still have a few tricks up my sleeve, most of which have already been posted xD

    One thing thing that it very nice to see in PvP [good timing is required for this, and it's only happened by accident once or twice, but damn is it nice] is using soul link/shatter on a target while a well-geared caster [usually wizzy] is casting a BIDS, or a similar ultimate spell on them. I have yet to learn soul shatter [5m spirit cost :s] but I imagine the extra 50% damage taken would be even more badass. This does require good coordination but it can take down some pretty nicely geared people much easier ^o^

    With full chi against a HA opponent, I have a nice combo that usually allows me to survive until my teammates can come help me. Depending on how hard they hit, I go AD + IG -> demon summer sprint + feral -> bramble hood [and cloud erruption] then go into fox and use fossilized curse -> bewitch. If by then they're still not dead then.. run your little foxy tail away xD
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  • Artymis - DreamweaverArtymis - Dreamweaver Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Love the thoughts! I already love playing veno, and this thread makes me even more excited about veno, especially endgame. b:victory

    this made me pretty happy to hear :3
    1) "Stunlock combo". Disclaimer: this was thought of with regards to sage venos (sorry demons--I appreciate you a ton and think you're awesome, but sage worked better for this combo). The thought was: Lucky scarab (4 sec stun sage), parasitic nova (8 sec seal/freeze), lucky scarab again (4 sec), bewitch (6 sec seal) + stunning blow (if you don't like foxform or don't think you can hit, frost scarab works well enough by slowing)(8 sec freeze for stunning blow), pet bash (3 sec stun), then lucky scarab again (4 sec), for a total of ~30 seconds of stunning/dd time.
    If you had the chi (either by cloud erupt or sage/demon lending hand on self(and getting lucky)), you could try: nova (8 sec), lucky (4 sec), bewitch(6) + stunning blow(8), pet stun (3), lucky (4), slow them for at least 3 more secs by frost or arcane antimony or use some fun genie skill if you have it, then nova (8) and lucky (4) again, for a total of ~37 seconds of stunning/dd time.
    I realize both of these combos have holes, namely a) proc chance (95% lucky, 95% nova, ~80% chance pet bash, ~95% frost). Also, during the first suggestion there is a 1 sec of nothing between the pet bash and the lucky's cooldown. In the second suggestion, there is that 3 sec of no control besides slow, and the issue of chi. However, I thought it was relatively effective and might be worth the trouble. Feedback is appreciated!
    On the second one, can you really double nova? You realize cd is 30? Otherwise, it is nice to hear we can stunlock too. It's what I tried to achieve with my frost/lucky combo. I like the idea of stunning blow but I got super low acc and not gonna waste a spark for a big chance of a miss. But yeh frost could work well there. and i like to save my 2 sparks for hood rather than nova, at least till i get my pdef up :)
    2) "Tank combo". This was actually really similar to the one you mentioned, arty--I was pleased someone else had come up with something similar. b:pleased My idea used absolute domain though: hood + barrier (15), AD (5)(+2 antistun), use the 2 sec anti-stun at the end of AD for go into Feral (10), demon sprint or fortify into IG(12), hood (15), barrier (15), and depending on genie, AD again (5).
    A couple things on this: first, the issue of chi--once again, you can cloud erupt, or sage/demon lending hand on yourself and hope for a good proc. Second, to have added control (or anti-control, rather), there is always natural synergy (15 sec antistun) to consider--you could use it right before feral to continue into the IG without need of fortify, purify proc, or demon sprint. You could also use it during a hood period to not be stunned during hood. Third, you could space out the hood and the barrier--there would be less defense, for sure, but it would last longer. And I agree, throughout this if needed you could transfusion, or use metabolic boost/nature's grace.
    The natural synergy is not a bad contribution although not many venos i know actually like this skill or find it to be a waste. don't think i could double AD like that for CD purposes, not stamina purposes. On the note of blazing barrier and hood spacing out, hood only has a 30 sec cd :) it's totally spammable compared to barrier with the right chi buildup.
    3) "Barb killer". This one is purely theoretical, I don't have the genie or skills to try this, but....You know how it's really rough trying to knock through some barb's hp pool, especially the ones with nice magic ornies and hp charms?
    This combo considered that they might have a magic charm, too. Basically, after ticking their hp charm, use malefic crush (sage is preferred for this combo), smack him for 3 secs then use chaotic spirit (hope for switch), then dd that last little bit of hp for the win.
    Here's the math behind it: barbs, though they may have hp in excess of 40k, almost never have mp above 2k (most might be somewhere about 1.75k). We'll say for this example that this barb has 1.8k mp. Using malefic crush (sage) drops 1800 mana over 3 secs. In the first sec, his charm will tick at 75%, putting him back at 1.8k, then drops 1.2k over the next 2 secs. Then, chaotic spirit (60% chance of working, but can be raised via genie dex) swaps, putting his hp at a 1/3 it's normal value while his hp charm still has ~6 more secs before it ticks again. If he has no mp charm, his mp could drop to like 1% of normal value, making his hp at swap 1%. This makes the remaining DD relatively easy if you can kill him in that time.
    Yes, this has holes as well. If he has auto pot or uses an herb, the point is moot since he gets more mp than he looses. Also, if he invokes in the last 6 secs before charm tick, it's nearly impossible to kill him even with 1/3 hp.
    However, this combo has a very high chance of catching them off guard, and seemed interesting. Opinions and feedback?
    The idea is there even with autopot and herbs. although i do prefer the idea of purging and not giving him any chi to invoke mainly so then i can keep two sparks
    4) "Cursing up a storm". In a support situation, one needs to be able to maximize the efficiency of others. In general, sage soul degen would be lovely for a starting tech--drop their max hp.
    However, the curses widely depend on situation, and a skilled veno should use their own discernment to judge when one or another should be used. I came up with a couple scenarios:
    a) trying to kill a flag carrier in NW. Sage soul degen is lovely, once again. Demon soul degen is also nice, but not to start off, unless it's an LA class. Purging is a must, though timing is situational. It's really funny to purge someone as soon as they use their 15 sec max speed/antistun pot, and watch them slow to a crawl in befuddlement before dying. If they are r9rr or very powerful, they may try to go on the reverse offense, so you could wait until they spark to purge their offense. If they are tanky, using crush vigor right while everyone is wailing on them (especially barbs) lessens their capabilities. Amp is wonderful--absolutely use it, but once again, situational timing. It overwrites and is overwritten by other curses, so use it when you know some powerful DD is backing you up. Otherwise, you might be better off ridding the opponent of their skill abilities by crushing vigor. Myriad rainbow is lovely when you're backed up by squadmates who know what they're doing.
    b) 1v1: sage degen, purge if buffed, amp. Crush vigor would not help much in 1v1(too few hits), and demon degen is better for squads--few venos rely on accuracy to kill.
    c) squad aid: sage degen the tank, demon degen the archer or sin, crush vigor on anyone taking a lot of hits, amp on the one you really want dead (like cleric), purge the sparking ones or the most dangerous. Myriad rainbow on anyone that you feel lucky hitting with backup.
    might i also suggest fossilized curse to your arsenal? :) all of these are very good to use certainly although i don't use soul degen. i find it irrelevant :p
  • mercifulemperormercifulemperor Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    this made me pretty happy to hear :3
    b:pleased

    On the second one, can you really double nova? You realize cd is 30? Otherwise, it is nice to hear we can stunlock too. It's what I tried to achieve with my frost/lucky combo. I like the idea of stunning blow but I got super low acc and not gonna waste a spark for a big chance of a miss. But yeh frost could work well there. and i like to save my 2 sparks for hood rather than nova, at least till i get my pdef up :)

    Yeah, I realized that cd is 30 on the second one--so if you add up the times, it's 8+4+6(or 8, depending on skill used)+3+4 (=25~27), then I mentioned that we would have to find something to do for 3~5 secs before being able to nova again.
    True, hood would be more useful than nova in a lot of cases, since most often venos are hunted down and ganked like stray cats in NW, TW, or any PvP for that matter. b:surrender (We just scare the living daylights out of the other classes b:laugh) The stunlock combo was really with the mindset of a 1v1, though. =)


    The natural synergy is not a bad contribution although not many venos i know actually like this skill or find it to be a waste. don't think i could double AD like that for CD purposes, not stamina purposes. On the note of blazing barrier and hood spacing out, hood only has a 30 sec cd :) it's totally spammable compared to barrier with the right chi buildup.
    Ah, true, I forgot the long cd of AD...good point. =)
    And yeah, for spammability hood is great, spaced out especially. =) Though I love your idea of combining barrier with hood, since reflecting ~300% dmg(in TW/NW at least) and absorbing 115% is hilariously OP> b:pleased


    The idea is there even with autopot and herbs. although i do prefer the idea of purging and not giving him any chi to invoke mainly so then i can keep two sparks
    'Tis true. =) Regarding invoke, though, I was reading another thread, and soul shatter sounded rather fun for that (even though it's 2 sparks). I mean, sure, we can only hit them down to 1 hp with soul shatter, but easily finished after that, right? Would be funny to see their faces when 90% dmg reduction has no effect. =)


    might i also suggest fossilized curse to your arsenal? :) all of these are very good to use certainly although i don't use soul degen. i find it irrelevant :p

    Good idea with fossilized curse. =)
    And point taken regarding soul degen--just thought it might be useful for incredibly high hp people(sage, at least) initially. =)


    Thank you so much for the feedback! I really appreciate it. f:grin Hopefully as I get more experience I'll have more to contribute to this thread. =)
  • Womansley - SanctuaryWomansley - Sanctuary Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I grew up with a sage-mage build and a non-DD support mindset. As my gear approached endgame and the release of NW brought more pvp activity into pwi, things began to change. Actually I was browsing these forums one day when I read azura say something about amp,EP, and demon HF being able to kill anyone.
    I might consider it the first time I really saw value in demon venos. I pride myself in my sage heritage, but I began to see how much more optimized demons are at fighting offensively. Normal venomous scarab, Ironwood, Nova,even wood mastery.
    Well being too proud a sage, I began to think how I can be more effective at pvp (NW and tw mind you, I never go out and pk). I actually skimmed this whole thread today (very good inputs so far, good job everyone), but no one mentioned myriad rainbow. It may seem silly to rely on a chance armor or mental break, but for me it is well worth a small Chi cost for an instant cast chance to ruin a target's defence. I had considered a genie specialized to stack another debuff on top of the already dangerously high myriad debuff. In consideration of which icons were which debuff, the options are tangling more with armor break and elemental weakness (also demon venomous) with mental break. Although I admit the first might be excessive since arcane antimony is the only skill that could utilize it. Anyway I never made that genie, but am still considering it. Keep in mind this would be most effective for purged targets, cleric buffs and the like will greatly offset myriad's debuff.
    Alas I also took into consideration how defenses are calculated. Most arcanes will be less vulnerable to mental break and most heavy armors will be less vulnerable to armor break, even fully purged. There is a component of your raw defense granted by stat points that will be leftover after the myriad debuff.
  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I don't think tangling will stack with an armor break from myriad or demon ironwood (can't reduce pdef below 0%). It will, however, with sage ironwood's 40%. If you want a genie skill to stack with myriad's armor/mind breaks, look at extreme poison.
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  • Womansley - SanctuaryWomansley - Sanctuary Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I don't think tangling will stack with an armor break from myriad or demon ironwood (can't reduce pdef below 0%). It will, however, with sage ironwood's 40%. If you want a genie skill to stack with myriad's armor/mind breaks, look at extreme poison.

    Actually that was the point of my last paragraph. There is always a need for a reduction greater than 100%. If your target is buffed, anyone should be able to understand why.
    The argument is harder to make if your target is purged, but I will try. Myriad and demon Ironwood specifically reduce defense by 100% of gear value. The assumption is that without buffs, gear defense is all that is left. This is actually wrong.
    From the formulas available on pw wiki, your base defense is calculated off gear, str (for pdef ) magic (for mdef) and vit (for both defenses). I took a close look at my own gear and came to the following conclusion: my magic defense is about 1.9 times my gear value. I forgot the number for pdef, it was lower because I don't have much str. Something like 1.2 or 1.3 probably. And the numbers given to me by my archer friend indicates both his base defenses are about 1.2 times his gear's value.
    Hopefully you might understand what I was talking about now. Myriad or demon Ironwood even on an unbuffed target will not reduce a target to 0 pdef because 100% of gear value is not the same as 100% of base defense. This is entirely why I sought out an extra debuff to further lower defense, not just because I could also be trying on buffed targets.
    I do, however, like your suggestion to stack EP. It is cheap enough to cast alongside another genie skill and could be very nasty b:laugh.
  • Mayfly - DreamweaverMayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well, my only experience with trying to stack mire with an armor break is in PVE where mire doesn't add anything; do those with PVP experience notice additional damage when mire is added to an armor break? (suggest testing this with a pet attacking a testing opponent, to ensure constant attack value.)
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Myriad and demon Ironwood specifically reduce defense by 100% of gear value. The assumption is that without buffs, gear defense is all that is left. This is actually wrong.

    Myriad does reduce physical damage by 100% which doesn't equal to 0 physical defence so in the case of Myriad and Sage Ironwood you can use Tangling Mire to further reduce the defences.

    Demon Ironwood however reduces physical defence to 0 regardless so Tangling Mire in that case is useless as Mayfly suggested.

    It's a common misconception but yeah, Myriad and Demon Ironwood actually work differently, in PvP at least.
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  • Womansley - SanctuaryWomansley - Sanctuary Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Myriad does reduce physical damage by 100% which doesn't equal to 0 physical defence so in the case of Myriad and Sage Ironwood you can use Tangling Mire to further reduce the defences.

    Demon Ironwood however reduces physical defence to 0 regardless so Tangling Mire in that case is useless as Mayfly suggested.

    It's a common misconception but yeah, Myriad and Demon Ironwood actually work differently, in PvP at least.

    Checked the in-game encyclopedia, you seem correct. Well that's what happens when I'm sage XD. But this does make Demon Ironwood even better in PvP than I thought...
  • JustAllEvil - HarshlandsJustAllEvil - Harshlands Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Checked the in-game encyclopedia, you seem correct. Well that's what happens when I'm sage XD. But this does make Demon Ironwood even better in PvP than I thought...

    Yes, the above is correct.

    Also nice to see a PvP thread for venos.

    At this point I'd advise almost nobody to get a nix..just my personal opinion but it's not worth the money to have in PvP, it'll die and you'll be too distracted healing it if it's not one hit. Money is better spent on gear..

    Worth mentioning if anybody is in this thread who hasn't already bought one and considering it ;)

    I'm pure magic, I hit hard but it does cost you in survivability if you don't have the coin/time to farm gear to counter the low def.

    I will hang around this thread b:victory
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  • Arctix - DreamweaverArctix - Dreamweaver Posts: 124 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Checked the in-game encyclopedia, you seem correct. Well that's what happens when I'm sage XD. But this does make Demon Ironwood even better in PvP than I thought...

    for the amount of time it procs u can say u'll feel like a boss twice a weak b:chuckle
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    for the amount of time it procs u can say u'll feel like a boss twice a weak b:chuckle

    To be fair, some days you're lucky and it procs a lot whilst other days it seems like it never procs but that's luck.

    I would have preferred if it had 30% chance to proc or something similar but overall I understand why it has such a low proc-rate...imagine it have something like 80% chance; that would be pretty OP and broken.
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  • opkossyopkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited May 2013
    To be fair, some days you're lucky and it procs a lot whilst other days it seems like it never procs but that's luck.

    I would have preferred if it had 30% chance to proc or something similar but overall I understand why it has such a low proc-rate...imagine it have something like 80% chance; that would be pretty OP and broken.
    Yeah.... I once got bored and played around with demon ironwood for fun.

    With demon ironwood proc a level 85 sin with +5 hooks was hitting a third cast R9 BM for ~3ks on various skills when the normal damage said sin did was triple digits at best.

    If it had a higher chance to activate than it currently does.... veno + (insert phys class here) would be an instakill for pretty much anyone fighting them.
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    image
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