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ddunn0o
Posts: **3** Arc User

witch one give extra output damage at the end? everyone asking for a sage veno for nirvy, and i got rejected like 10 time for being demon b:angry

Post edited by ddunn0o on

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6,094Arc UserNot that hard to do the math.

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0Arc UserOKAY, there is a increasing demand for sage amps, buit it depends of your squad, for example: If you go with a saquad "top" that kill a boss in 6s, they prefer the sage, but if you go with a pt that isnt so much top, they will prefer any veno.

My opinion: Sage amp = 30% dmg for 20s. Demon = 25% dmg for 26s. In my opinion 5% is negligible. As well as the 5% dmg nerf in 4.0+ is negligible too. So i prefer demon for caster nirvy.

@Edit:

Math: If you hit 1000, with 30% amp, you hit 1300, 1300x20=26000. If you hit 1000, with 25% amp, you hit 1250, 1250x26=32500. So the demon give more dmg than the sage at the end.

5,369Arc UserDupethefile explained it nicely there. But yea, don't expect people to be smart when they're elitist like that... lol

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660Arc UserWhere exactly did you get those numbers?

I remember a post that broke down sage vs demon amp in detail, but I can't remember who posted it. It concluded: If the target lives for more than 20 seconds -and there isn't a second veno in the squad- demon amp is better over all, but only by a few percent. In the short term, sage amp is better, but in a longer fight, demon just barely edges out sage with it's longer duration.

151Arc Useramps? ... both 11 about the same. Maybe melee heads actually care that sage venos and have 30% and 40% reliable pdef debuff while demons has 25% and 30%(36% with peirce) or unreliable demon ironwood.

There is no shame in losing when there is no honor in winning.

942Arc Userhttp://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9369842&postcount=4 I think this is the post you're alluding to.

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6,094Arc UserFaulty memory b:surrender

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48Arc Userur maths a bit off there on the sage part since u go for 26 secs on demon amp u should go for 26 on sage amp aswell wich would be 1300x20 = 26000 + (1000x6) = 32000 . so the dif on the long run isnt that much in favor for demon. for the short run its for sage 1300x20=26000 and for demon 1250x20=25000 so in the terms of short run sage is better

544Arc UserDemon amp is specifically "Increased duration by 6 seconds" = 26 sec along with the 25% for being lv11

Sage amp is simply a 20 sec 30% increase

sage amp, unless there is a 2nd sage amp veno in squad, would not go for longer than 20 sec till cd was off, demon can be mostly kept permanently so long as the veno goes fox form right before amp goes off cd (26 sec duration / 30 sec cooldown) in which care it would only be 5 sec w/o the amp.

so it would be more of a:

[?] dmg x 25% x 26 sec for demon

and [?] dmg x 30% x 20 sec for sage

1000 x 1.25 x 26 = 32500 dmg within 30 sec for demon

1000 x 1.3 x 20 = 26000 dmg within 30 sec for sage.

but ofc, most ppl requesting sage amp are completely clueless and simply go for the shiny extra 5% or are too stupid to check what % of dmg increase demon is and instead think its merely 20% like lv10

b:surrender

7,881Arc UserThe way you have it set up is not a fair comparison since you are comparing total damage done over a period of 20 seconds with sage versus total damage done over a period of 26 seconds with demon.

With that set up even if they had equal total damage the sage would have higher DPS since it occurs over a shorter period of time.

If you are trying to compare the average DPS you would need to account for the unamped damage sage would be doing over those 6 extra seconds you gave to demon.

It is more simple though to just look at only the total damage added only by the amp over the entire amp duration and ignore the unamped damage component which is the same in both cases.

That would be just:

1000 x .25 x 26 = 6500 dmg for demon

1000 x .3 x 20 = 6000 dmg for sage.

Demon is in fact slightly higher but only if the fight lasts longer than 24 seconds, that's the break even point between the two amps. For any fight less than 24 seconds sage would do more added damage.

Sage amp is actually able to catch up to and overtake demon again 10 seconds after the start of the next amp cycle but demon overtakes it for good 12 seconds after that. That means sage is better for any fight of less than 24 seconds and for fights between 40 and 52 seconds. Demon is better in other cases (although they are equal at t=80s).

Really though the difference isn't that noticeable.

EDIT: Managed to graph demon, sage, and lvl 10 amp together for better visualization

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6,094Arc UserWeekly Japanese/English bilingual webcomic

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0Arc UserYou are worng, the question is

" witch one give extra output damage at the end?"So the sage amp there are a duration = 20s, and the demon amp = 26s, so you have to compare using the duraition too, because the amp's cooldown = 30s, so to put other sage amp you have to wait 10s, and to put a other demon amp you have to wait only 4s, so the demon amp is better when you have only one veno in squad, and the sage amp when you have two sage veno in the squad.

But now pay attention for an interesting situation:

A squad will kill a boss in 60s.

The sage amp, if you hit 1000, you will hit 1300, 1300x20 = 26000 dmg, then 10s without the amp, you hit 10000. Veno put the amp again, you will hit more 26000, and the last 10s without amp the boss died. So your dmg was 26000 + 10000 + 26000 + 10000 = 72000 dmg.

The demon amp, if ypu hit 100, you hit 1250, 1250x26 = 32500, then 4s without amp, you hit 4000. Veno amp again, you hit more 32500 and the boss die. So your dmg was 32500 + 4000 + 32500 + 4000 = 73000.

Look for the diference: 73000 - 72000 = 1000 dmg,

the demon amp is a litlle bit better.So now your example was. SAGE: 1300x20 = 26000, and 1250x20 = 25000. Look for the diference now: 26000 - 25000 = 1000 dmg.

The sage is a little bit betterbut if the boss doesn't die in 20s, the demon will become bettterSo what do you conclude from that???

8,680Arc UserI've been saying that for a long time already, both Amplify are equal and good. They just shine in different situations/scenarios/squad set-up and in the end, the difference between them isn't all that big.

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48Arc User7,881Arc UserThe amp takes affect at the beginning of the cast animation not the end. Channeling will vary considerably depending on how much -channel gear the veno has and can be removed almost entirely with aporthecary.

In any case the channeling and cast are the same for both demon and sage so it will not affect their relative performance.

The effectiveness of each is also assuming people in the squad are doing constant DPS. People like to stack demon spark / frenzy / mire at the start to dramatically increase their burst DPS in which case sage's higher amp becomes more efficient.

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636Arc Useralone tho sage and demon amp is about the same. that's just my thoughts tho.

1,154Arc UserSage amp is simply more wanted for nirvana because the squads in wc are usually (aiming to) kill within 1 spark cycle on ampable bosses. And over the 15 sec of 1 spark, sage amp > demon amp, even though the difference is minimal. There may be also the addition that demon has 3 chances to armor break and sage has 2 chances to armor break + a reliable def buff (not counting a pierce pet). Since clerics and devouring barbs are rare, I think this has become a consideration also.

Personally, I'd consider sage better in squad ; the kills are usually fast for the shorter 30% to be more usefull and either amp is pretty long anyway, while solo I'd consider demon amp more usefull, cause it's rare you can cast whenever you want.

With all damage increases being strictly % based, the damage gap between sage and demon amp over the first 20 sec is, and always will be, the exact same (4% more for sage), ijs

[QUOTE=Desdi - Sanctuary;166016

61]I think it's time I link people to this thread. It's very useful.

I've been saying that for a long time already, both Amplify are equal and good. They just shine in different situations/scenarios/squad set-up and in the end, the difference between them isn't all that big.

[/QUOTE]

Tbh, I think you better link this one (if you remember) : http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1164911

Solandri is one of the rare persons on these forums that knows how to handle figures.

4,001Arc UserMy vana squads typically will designated the first HFer, the first Tangling Mirer, and the first EPer (or a continuous EPer, since its spammable. Or a Sin that will Subsea first.) The amplify damage and physical debuff is performed by the veno. We run up, all triple spark, and all the debuffs hit within a couple seconds of each other 5-15 seconds after a boss is started.

At this point the physical debuff of 40% Ironwood is about a 29% dps increase, the Subsea or EP is 20/30% amp, the HF is a 100% amp, and the Tangling Mire is normall 35-40% dps increase. The 5% difference of sage and demon Amplify Damage is pretty big at this point.

1.29 (ironwood) x 1.3 (subsea) x 2 (HF) x 1.37 (Mire) x 1.3 (sage Amp) = 597% damage is multipled.

1.29 (ironwood) x 1.3 (subsea) x 2 (HF) x 1.37 (Mire) x 1.25 (demon Amp) = 574% damage is multipled.

So that 5% difference makes a 23% difference for a couple seconds in a good squad. When we are talking 200k dps Sins thats another 46k per second for 1 person.

Also... Most demon veno's are horrible at rotating their myriads/ironwood to get a proc. I've done entire runs without a single armor break with some demon venos. Not to pin that down on the cultivation, its the veno's fault, its just harder for a demon veno to master phys debuffing than a sage.

8,680Arc User@Empu - I know that thread and have it bookmarked along with others but as people tend to avoid walls of text, this short thread might come in more handy sometimes xD

@Sakubatou - I totally agree with the last lines. Hence why I often actually recommend Sage to venomancers. I don't want more fail Demons ruining our reputation -.- Plus some of them don't even bother to have Tangling Mire on genie and Pierce on their pets, let alone have the Myriad Rainbow skills.

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2,843Arc UserAsterelle hit pretty much all the points I made last time this came up.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=14585471&postcount=51

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=14595331&postcount=57

Bottom line is, arguments about which amp is better really only matter for long fights. If you're killing the bosses in 20-30 sec, how quickly you run between bosses and how quickly you loot are going to matter more than which amp you use. If you're just trying to finish the instance as quickly as possible, most of your time in the instance is spent running and looting, so that's where you can find the most time savings. Max Holy Path moves you at 15 m/s for 6 sec, so if your default move speed is 7.5 m/s, using it once will save you 6 seconds of run time. If your default move speed is 5 m/s, using it once will save you 12 seconds of run time. That's a far bigger time savings than the 1 sec difference of Sage vs Demon amp.

In fact, another way to improve loot/time efficiency is to go on runs with fewer people. The fights are longer, but the time wasted running between bosses is the same. Thus you're spending a greater percentage of your time killing bosses instead of running between them.

e.g. If 6 people can kill 5 bosses in 30 sec each, and take 30 sec to run between bosses, that's 4.5 min for a run @ 5/6 bosses per person, or 5.4 min spent to collect one boss worth of loot for each person.

If 3 people can kill the same 5 bosses in 75 sec each (80% the DPS per person of the 6 person squad), and take 30 sec to run between bosses, that's 8.25 min for a run @ 5/3 bosses per person, or 4.95 min spent to collect one boss worth of loot for each person. An 8% time savings (31 seconds) despite dishing out less DPS per person.

See? Killing bosses faster is not always better. But if people wanna be silly and settle for shaving just 5 seconds off their run time by requiring Sage amp, well you're probably better off not running with them. (Which brings up a pet peeve of mine. After a mob dies, slower toons like clerics should immediately run to the next mob. Faster toons like barbs, BMs, assassins, and yes, venos should stay behind to loot, then use their speed to catch up to the slower toons. But usually what you'll see is the faster toons take off leaving the cleric to loot, then they sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for the cleric to catch up.)

151Arc UserHahaha I notice that a lot. Demon veno, sage barb, in things like frost I usually loot and sort of slap my forhead at how hard BMs and sins try to outrun me but I always beat them in the end ._.' I find its kinda wasted effort trying to outrun one person in squad when everyone else is left miles behind.(Neither my barb nor veno have Holy Path)

Also in NV I really hate those times when everyones just standing around waiting for like one person... this is why I prefer to duo things with my friend...

There is no shame in losing when there is no honor in winning.

8,680Arc UserAnd yep, I agree. People sometimes lose

a lotof time running inbetween the bosses. It's not even funny when it takes longer to "run" than to kill a boss.★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★

1,154Arc UserI'm not sure if the obsession over dps comes from most reasoning as if nirvana is the only instance around or if it's a remaining from the old days when killing did take the longest part. The running time really is underestimated (recent fcc time bragging thread for example) and everyone plays in a "1 target at a time" way lately (when was the last time you saw a barb, seeker or bm "pull" even 3 mobs in seat?).

Anyway, if you involve loot, things would change even more as less ppl means more drops per person. I think most of this kind of "what is best dps" threads are simply for intellectual purposes. As you and several said : on 1 to 2 spark-during fights, nobody is going to notice the difference between both amps.

@Desdi : I only know a few demon venos, and they are all pro. Idk why they have "a bad reputation" actually.

8,680Arc UserI don't know, you must be lucky lol. Then again, I usually form random squads (with a friend or two in them) when it comes to BH.

Nevertheless, I'm trying to advice them most of the time. It's a huge pet peeve for me, just because it's my favourite class and I hate it when people can't use it right b:surrender.

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2Arc Usernot sure if late but....

from what i gather, demon amp is 25%

and sage is 30%

not counting duration,

you have x(1.25)

and x(1.30)

but there IS duration involved.

formula would be;

D = (1.25x)26

D = (1.30x)20

with 1000 damage, in one use the damage is;

1000*(1.25)*26 = 32,500

1000*(1.30)*20 = 26,000

unless i got my math dangerously wrong, demon seems FAR better for single uses.

now lets see where the two break even.

(im gonna use a different form, same equation)

32.5x =26x

-26x -26x

6.5x = 0

---

6.5 6.5

x = 0

oh.... would you look at that. theyre only equal at 0.

as you can see, plainly, demon is FAR better.

and the math backs it up.

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3Arc Useri did read the thread...

i am, however, a very new player to PWI.

where did the extra values come from?

3,765Arc User1,154Arc Userb:shocked you better review your basics. No offence, but if you don't know how to work with figures, better not try use them but just rely on common sense.

All math is "hypothetical", that is even where formula's come from. It's the users capacity to see the different dimensions that gives math sense, if not, you're simply filling in formula's. It's the work before and after the calculations that is worth looking at, calculations itself are pretty redundant and brainless.

6,094Arc UserUn-amped time during one (30 second) cooldown cycle.

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