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Sage or Demon ?

_Peyton__ - Sanctuary_Peyton__ - Sanctuary Posts: 12 Arc User
edited September 2011 in Venomancer
Hi guys Im now lvl 88 and really unsure wether to go sage or demon so would be very grateful for any feed back. This is a toon I play when Im not on my higher Bm or cleric so generally just use my veno to solo TT or grind etc. I use my cleric for vana so really dont have any plans for using my veno for that and I dont PvP so really would love some feedback as to which way you guys would recommend I go. Thank you in advance
Post edited by _Peyton__ - Sanctuary on

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  • Coral_blades - DreamweaverCoral_blades - Dreamweaver Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php heres a site i hav about sage and demon skills 4 all classes, for you , id say its rly about what YOU prefer in a veno, because both sage and demon r very good imo b:pleased
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    signature picture thanks to Schznider<33 ty hun<333 b:cute
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Yeah its preference really.

    Overall, however, I'd recommend Sage if you can't afford many skills (Sage Ironwood is good for increasing pet's damage output and is a reliable debuff, free chi skill to help you further) but even if you can afford more skills Sage would still be better if you're planning to solo TT heavily (Sage Soul Degeneration saves a lot of time). Also Sage Fox Form would probably help you survive some of the strong physical AoEs (staying in Fox Form and spamming heal pet with an occasional Myriad Rainbow).

    I do TTs myself but I've never truely soloed one. I usually have a friend or two (or more) with me there because, although I like soloing things, TT takes so long that it gets boring for me to do the whole thing on my own. This is not the reason I chose Demon, though. What I like about Demon is the bonus critical hit from the masteries (I stack crit gear). Also the shorter cooldowns on skills (Metabolic Boost, Nature's Grace, Noxious Gas etc.) and the more "control skills" (Frost Scarab has a chance to freeze, Stunning Blow freezes & stuns). Crush Vigor and Lending Hand keep my chi up most of the time and Demon Parasitic Nova is just wonderful. The bonus debuff from Venomous Scarab is nice and I spam Myriads + Ironwood for Armor Break (it's not too rare but it's not 100% reliable). Demon Amplify lasts longer which is more beneficial if you solo (but can't compare to Sage Soul Degeneration).
    As you can see I have bought many Demon skills (I pretty much have all 23 skills I wanted/needed) but this is my main character and I've put most into her.

    Since your Venomancer is just an alt you have to consider what skills and how many skills you can possibly afford for her and judge upon that. Also, consider whether you'd like to invest later (eg. get a few skills now and work for more later) which may also affect your choice.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • LenieClarke - Heavens TearLenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    venomancer is one of the lucky classes where the sage/demon tradeoff is really well balanced, you really can make either one work great.

    i'm leaning demon because a lot of the skills there seem better suited to fox form melee playing, which i want to be doing more of and plan to be doing much more of after 90. demon spark giving more weapon attack, more damage reflected from bramble, higher crit rates from the masteries, faster cooldowns on a number of skills including some staple fox form skills, demon summer sprint giving immunity to the stun from the handy-dandy feral concentration... just seems well suited to mixing it up with the seekers and the BMs. but there's plenty of great sage skills making me still question the decision, too.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.
  • _Peyton__ - Sanctuary_Peyton__ - Sanctuary Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Thanks so much for the advice and although this is an alt i really do enjoy playing her so am quite happy to invest in this toon as well as my others that are pretty much set up now. Leaning slightly towards demon as that what my previous veno was many moons ago but will look further into the skills etc then make a decision :)
  • Kaitica - Heavens TearKaitica - Heavens Tear Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Demon b:dirtyb:dirty

    b:shutup






    b:shocked




    b:surrender

    Sage is cool too bro.
  • tfi3ftfi3f Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I completely agree that veno is one of the most balanced classes with reference to culti choice. I would like to nominate demon and recommend it to you; but sage is really as good. You get a 3 second stun, 50 chi every minute and some other perks.

    On the demon end of the spectrum, there really is almost nothing that can replace constant 10m/s run speed from demon fox form while also keeping your genie free. There's also nothing that can replace an extra break, and a 50% chance to gain 1 spark from crush vigour. Nothing can really replace the 4 second cooldown reduction on purge. And in endgame PvP, antistun is everything. D. summer sprint is a colossal advantage. As a demon veno it is entirely possible to PvP without getting stunlocked if you have the right genie. Not being stunlocked is very important since it ensures your kiting isn't messed up.

    You'll be kiting a lot, and you'll be darting in and out at your opponent to try for breaks. Antistun and stun-purify is essential. Sage summer sprint doesn't work while you're actually stunned.

    I'm a demon advocate but tbh I always did consider trying out sage just to see how it would feel, since it really, really has a lot of upsides as well. Have fun choosing and I hope you get what you want out of your veno.
    Valhalla disband. That is all \o/

    "The thing about winners is... they get to write the history books, and they get to analyze everything from high atop their winner's perch.

    Doesn't matter what the circumstances are." -- Burnout, Harshlands, Wizard.
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I will second Sage veno's, even though for a while I had considered switching mine to demon. However, I'd say for your case there's unfortunately a more politically correct answer which is it depends on your preference on which skills and style of play.

    For instance, HA/AA and LA to me is pretty much an instant Sage answer to make the most of fox form and melee mastery, as well as physical attack. For demons, quite a number of them are PK and caster damage oriented, due to the speed of demon fox form, debuffs of venomous, possible armour break (more on that), -chan in spark, amp in nova.

    What separates Sage from demon is the squad oriented skills which best cater to squads, and while not truly a KO factor in elimination from PK, as far as PVE and TW goes Sage is far more useful. Purge is an AOE even if short ranged like Sage wiz FOW for taking out catas and the healers close to them, Soul Degen's max hp debuff is extremely useful (except in FF) on bosses like RB, TT, WB's, and so on from bosses that don't resist the max hp debuff. Now, about ironwood. For the longest time I've watched how armour break works when it hits using myriad, and without a doubt there is quite a noticeable difference over Sage ironwood, however, the reason I will dismiss this in PVE is because Demon ironwood armour break doesn't proc often enough, and having 40% reduction for twice as long with two chances to myriad in human and fox form for an armour break is more than sufficient.

    While Sages can certainly perform well in squads, and demons can be very useful to squads, the generality of these which stands up to cursory scrutiny one will encounter on the forums are Sage for PVE (HA/AA, LA, Arcane, squad-oriented) and TW and Demon for PK and caster damage.
  • Sarrafeline - SanctuarySarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I will second Sage veno's, even though for a while I had considered switching mine to demon. However, I'd say for your case there's unfortunately a more politically correct answer which is it depends on your preference on which skills and style of play.

    For instance, HA/AA and LA to me is pretty much an instant Sage answer to make the most of fox form and melee mastery, as well as physical attack. For demons, quite a number of them are PK and caster damage oriented, due to the speed of demon fox form, debuffs of venomous, possible armour break (more on that), -chan in spark, amp in nova.

    What separates Sage from demon is the squad oriented skills which best cater to squads, and while not truly a KO factor in elimination from PK, as far as PVE and TW goes Sage is far more useful. Purge is an AOE even if short ranged like Sage wiz FOW for taking out catas and the healers close to them, Soul Degen's max hp debuff is extremely useful (except in FF) on bosses like RB, TT, WB's, and so on from bosses that don't resist the max hp debuff. Now, about ironwood. For the longest time I've watched how armour break works when it hits using myriad, and without a doubt there is quite a noticeable difference over Sage ironwood, however, the reason I will dismiss this in PVE is because Demon ironwood armour break doesn't proc often enough, and having 40% reduction for twice as long with two chances to myriad in human and fox form for an armour break is more than sufficient.

    While Sages can certainly perform well in squads, and demons can be very useful to squads, the generality of these which stands up to cursory scrutiny one will encounter on the forums are Sage for PVE (HA/AA, LA, Arcane, squad-oriented) and TW and Demon for PK and caster damage.

    Had a Sage Veno in squad with me in TW tonight. That AOE purge is pretty freaking awesome. Turned back an entire cata squad just because the AOE Purge hit the entire Cata Squad coming down our path... And while they were buffing, I stunned and got an AOE in which killed the barb and then I killed the seeker while he tried to kill the Veno, who followed me.

    So yes, that AOE purge is extremely nice to have. The PDef boost is also really really nice for Sage. She had more PDef in Fox Form than I can get with Hax buffs lmao
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    For demons, quite a number of them are PK and caster damage oriented, due to the speed of demon fox form, debuffs of venomous, possible armour break (more on that), -chan in spark, amp in nova.

    Sage for PVE (HA/AA, LA, Arcane, squad-oriented) and TW and Demon for PK and caster damage.
    Just a correction. Venomancers are the only class that have a different triple spark than the other caster classes. Sage Venomancers don't get damage reduction and Demon Venomancers don't get -channeling. They both get increased physical damage instead and Sage gets more +magic attack increase while Demon gets +weapon damage increase (hence why some people mention Demon triple spark being more suitable for HA who depend on their weapon to maximise their damage output due to the lack of magic but also increases the physical damage as mentioned.)

    As for TW, Sage is good for the crowd part and Demon for the 1v1 part due to the more stunlocking skills available, Demon Summer Sprint and a few others.
    I wouldn't classify Sage as squad oriented only because Demons have a better Bramble, Purge, Lending Hand, Parasitic Nova (for aoes)* and Amplify has a 4% difference as proved by Solandri a few days ago so Demon's isn't as bad as some people make it be. I'd say it's more like Sage go for debuff as first priority and Demon for the other things (without underestimating each side).

    For caster damage, I'm not sure. Demons get critical bonus from the masteries so unless you stack critical gear (is what I do) it's quite useless. My critical hits proc relatively often and adds to my overall damage output. It's really a matter of how good your weapon is and if you took advantage of the cultivation chosen in the right way.

    *by that I meant for the squad. By reading the skill descriptions you will understand why they are better in squad
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • thumbsthumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    tfi3f wrote: »
    I completely agree that veno is one of the most balanced classes with reference to culti choice. I would like to nominate demon and recommend it to you; but sage is really as good. You get a 3 second stun, 50 chi every minute and some other perks.

    3s stun is only 1 extra sec while Demon's cd is reduced 2s. 50 chi every minute comes at a cost of time. A real perk for sage is Sage Soul Degeneration.
    On the demon end of the spectrum, there really is almost nothing that can replace constant 10m/s run speed from demon fox form while also keeping your genie free.

    10m/s isn't 15m/s, and your pet is limited to far below that.

    There's also nothing that can replace an extra break, and a 50% chance to gain 1 spark from crush vigour. Nothing can really replace the 4 second cooldown reduction on purge.

    Nothing can replace Sage Soul Degeneration, or AoE purge.
    And in endgame PvP, antistun is everything. D. summer sprint is a colossal advantage. As a demon veno it is entirely possible to PvP without getting stunlocked if you have the right genie. Not being stunlocked is very important since it ensures your kiting isn't messed up.

    One hit wonders needn't worry about stun lock.
    You'll be kiting a lot, and you'll be darting in and out at your opponent to try for breaks. Antistun and stun-purify is essential. Sage summer sprint doesn't work while you're actually stunned.

    Demon Ironwood doesn't actually work most of the time.
    I'm a demon advocate

    You don't say.
    That separates Sage from demon is the squad oriented skills which best cater to squads, and while not truly a KO factor in elimination from PK, as far as PVE and TW goes Sage is far more useful. Purge is an AOE even if short ranged like Sage wiz FOW for taking out catas and the healers close to them,

    JunuzZuel is just a fail / troll. Demon has an AoE amp with much greater range than sage's purge.
  • tfi3ftfi3f Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Everybody needs to worry about being stunlocked. The biggest reason why stunlocking an arcane class is a valid strategy is because it messes up their kiting. Even when it's HA vs. HA, being stunlocked means that if your HP is low, your opponent will likely get the kill before you can retreat and replenish your HP. That's why BMs stunlock barbs and other BMs. Did I really have to say that?

    By one-hit wonder, if you mean "classes which aim for quick kills", then does that also include Archer and Assassin? And would you also say that they don't need to worry about being stunlocked?

    10m/s is not 15 m/s, but it is higher than the run speed of most other classes in the game. Apart from barb, which other class can run at 10m/s or higher constantly?

    Additionally, "trying for a break" includes using Myriads, and not just Demon Ironwood. Err, I'll give a sample of what I do in PvP:

    Demon Ironwood -> Human myriad -> fox -> Genie Fortify -> fox myriad -> human -> Lucky -> Demon ironwood.

    It's highly situational though, but usually I get a break in that first set. As you can see, it's actually a highly practical combo and only one of the skills requires me to get up close, and as long as you do the anti-stun right, you will be able to resume kiting after you try fox myriad. You basically do a full set of tries for break and take only one hit. I'll maintain also that anti-stun is highly critical at endgame, and it can and should be used regularly. Knowing how to use it though requires good knowledge of not only your own class, but other peoples' as well, and it takes some practice :)

    @OP good luck with your culti choice :)
    Valhalla disband. That is all \o/

    "The thing about winners is... they get to write the history books, and they get to analyze everything from high atop their winner's perch.

    Doesn't matter what the circumstances are." -- Burnout, Harshlands, Wizard.
  • kitaoujixkitaoujix Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Yesterday I chose the path for my Veno. It has been my favourite class since the begining and even though it fell behind on lvls I still stick to it. I remember when I used to play, there were no sins or aps or anything like that at all... and the majority of venos were demon. I had always thought sage was the best, so all my pwi life i was planning on going sage. It turns out venos are like in the mythology, Huli Jing, and they are both good in sage and demon.

    I started thinking, and I remembered when I tested the sage path in a private server... of course things are very different there, everyone is OP, but still... as a sage veno, I had trouble killing someone in pvp (in a big confusion it was easy though, purging and amping and it was done... for some of the classes). Veno isn't exacly an endgame character... the nix becomes irrelevant and veno becomes one of the hardest to PvP with (in my opinion) so it's nearly impossible to DD someone to 0 Hp. You just can't do it, your mag dmg isn't high enough. That's where I remembered again... venos aren't DDs, they aren't supposed to DD someone to death, you'll have to completely rely on debuffs, and that's where I started thinking I had better chances with the demon path (although I had never tested it), the speed in fox form keeps you moving fast enough like a ninja. You just need to debuff, run run run, debuff again, run run run, debuff... and if it works, good, you'll attack the target, if it doesn't, keep running because you're not really lasting long enough if you don't. Think... why would venos need two skills that basically do the same (Myriad) and which only intent is to nuke after the debuff?! In my mind... Because venos will NEED them to actually kill anything.
    These were my thoughts. But then there was other problem: Nirvana. I really want to go to nirvana, and I had doubts if demon venos would get to nirvana just as much as sages. Then some people told me it doesn't really matter as long as it's a lvl 11 amp, and like Desdi refered... Solandri has made the calculations and it turns out it's a difference of 4% more dmg.
    It's true sage venos have their tricks, but so do demons.. I love sage soul degen, I always go to TT with a fellow sage veno, and to be honest I would also love an aeo purge and an instant purify from summer, the extra stun would be nice as well. Anyway I went back and forth back and forth with it and in the end I said **** it I'm going with demon. How ironic! I was the person who would tell everyone who wanted to hear me that sage venos were the best, and honestly, I was really convinced of that, I really was.
    I have chosen demon, but if I get to 100 and I end up feeling it's not good enough for me, or doesn't suit my playstyle, I'll change.

    P.S-> Regarding Ironwood... I'm not getting the demon version of it until I'm lvl 100 and only go around pvping and TWing. BUT it's not that rare to proc with the two myriads and the Ironwood... Besides if you're in a squad, it's not like you're really tanking anyway... so you can put Pierce and Howl in a Kowlin (I say kowlin because it's incredibly fast) just to debuff anytime it doesn't proc.

    Anyway enough with the wall of test... I don't know if I forgot something or if I have some contraditory parts there... we're just discussing, I may be wrong.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    kitaoujix wrote: »

    P.S-> Regarding Ironwood... I'm not getting the demon version of it until I'm lvl 100 and only go around pvping and TWing. BUT it's not that rare to proc with the two myriads and the Ironwood... Besides if you're in a squad, it's not like you're really tanking anyway... so you can put Pierce and Howl in a Kowlin (I say kowlin because it's incredibly fast) just to debuff anytime it doesn't proc.
    That's what I have done b:chuckle Pierce on pet as well as Tangling Mire on genie which I literary spam along with Extreme Poison.

    You're not obligated to get Demon Ironwood but It's also not the end of the world if you do. It's not like you're suddenly out of physical defence reduction options.

    And for the record, I use my debuff pet more often than my Hercules (when I'm in a squad, TTs excluded because I run those for faction and usually tank unless we do a full-squad-run). It has Claw (better overall damage output, Hercules is not tanking usually so without Reflect it falls behind) and it's also equipped with Howl. Not that Hercules has become useless, but I see no point in having it out when there's usually 2-3 other players in squad that are far better tankers than my pet.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • tfi3ftfi3f Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    kitaoujix wrote: »
    ...so it's nearly impossible to DD someone to 0 Hp. You just can't do it, your mag dmg isn't high enough. That's where I remembered again... venos aren't DDs, they aren't supposed to DD someone to death, you'll have to completely rely on debuffs...

    ...Think... why would venos need two skills that basically do the same (Myriad) and which only intent is to nuke after the debuff?! In my mind... Because venos will NEED them to actually kill anything.

    Lol, you're either a PvP server char, or a very very rare specimen of a pro PvE server char \o/
    Valhalla disband. That is all \o/

    "The thing about winners is... they get to write the history books, and they get to analyze everything from high atop their winner's perch.

    Doesn't matter what the circumstances are." -- Burnout, Harshlands, Wizard.
  • Kaitica - Heavens TearKaitica - Heavens Tear Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I saw the title,

    Sage or nirvana will sage gtfo LOL
  • kitaoujixkitaoujix Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    People usually ask for lvl 11 amp, whoever spends more time looking for a sage veno because they prefer sage is just dumb or too obsessed about something like 1 more second while killing the boss... which we could say ends up being the same thing...

    Yes I'm in a PvP server. What I meant by not being able to DD someone to 0 hp... well I'm probably being biased by my tests in private servers, everything is OP there, but while I was OP as a sage veno, it was extremely hard to kill other OP classes. I do believe it ends up translating to this server as well in some point (although not everyone has uber gears and etc etc) correct me if I'm wrong. It shouldn't matter though people say there's no PvP anyway.
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    I saw the title,

    Sage or nirvana will sage gtfo LOL
    Honestly, it would make more sense if they actually asked Sage Ironwood instead.
    The two Amplify don't have much of a difference. An extra second or two, more or else. Let's not forget that the run depends on the refines and damage output of the rest of the squad as well (go compare 5.0 with +2 weapon refine and a 4.0 with +7 weapon refine for example).

    But it makes me believe that people only rely on the in-game skills description. I have encountered people that didn't know Demon offers 26 duration and 5% more than lvl10 Amplify. While other times they didn't even know how Amplify actually works or how long its duration is O.o

    You're not obligated to know the skills of each class but you should at least check and comfirm things yourself before adopting an ideology and following it (remember when people asked Venomancer with Hercules? Some didn't even know why but asked anyway lol!)

    PS. this reply is not meant towards you but quoted as reference
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Atraieu - SanctuaryAtraieu - Sanctuary Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who made this thread an awesome discussion. I have found it most helpful in deciding what to do with my veno, who is my main char.

    Thank You. <3
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