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Sage vs Demon

Mowriyah - SanctuaryMowriyah - Sanctuary Posts: 28 Arc User
edited June 2011 in Venomancer
As a lvl 81 venomancer i have to chose between sage and demon soon. And this is harder than i thought! It's not like my bm.. I knew almost from the beginning that i would go demon. And now i'm here, as a 81 LA venomancer and still confused.. People tell me "omg go demon!! Demon LA venomancers owns!!!!" but just because i'm LA doesn't mean i'll go demon just because i chosed to use light armor. Hmm... So of course i have been on ecatomb a lot of times to look on skills, but still can't chose.. I've never pk before, but don't know if i start doing it later on. I want to hear something: did you chose demon or sage? Why did you chose sage/demon? Something you regret? Jealous? And do you have any tips for me? Thank you.
Post edited by Mowriyah - Sanctuary on
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  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    That is starting to become my favourite type of question...

    By looking at the two paths, without considering genies and such, you can clearly see that Sage is made for squads (eg. Ironwood Scarab, Soul Degeneration, Amplify Damage) and Demon is more PvP oriented (eg. shorter cooldowns, Ironwood Scarab, Frost Scarab) however that does not mean Sage can't do well in PvP or that Demon is not good in PvE. Both do pretty well in each case but Sage has clearly an advantage in PvE.

    I play on a PvE server, I don't PK but I knew I wanted to go Demon since lvl 60.
    The reason is because I love the type of skills Demon has. I like to call them "chance to hit, chance to miss" and I usually refer to them as "will either save you or kill you" (eg. Leech, Ironwood Scarab, Frost Scarab -don't have 100% chance to proc-).

    I also enjoy the shorter cooldowns. The biggest difference is seen to Noxious Gas, Metabolic Boost and Nature's Grace and I absolutely love the Critical Hit bonuses (though I only have Wood Mastery). I know you can get such bonuses from gear but +the masteries will give you even more.
    A high critical hit rate will make up for the +5% wood magic damage. Not to mention that you already have some Critical Hit rate due to being LA.
    Demon triple spark gives you more % of weapon damage which is useful for you as you lack both magic attack and physical attack (what i mean is that AA has more magic attack, HA has more physical attack due to the builds).
    One more thing that's absolutely awesome is that Summer Sprint + Feral Concentration makes you a god for a few seconds (without having to cost you genie stamina).

    Now if you include genie skills you can easily ignore bonuses like Demon Fox Form's speed bonus. Tangling Mire or pet skill Pierce will make up for Demon Ironwood (as it has only 20% to proc) and so on. You can make up for some drawbacks of each path by considering genie skills.


    Well, that's from the side of a Demon Venomancer. Keep in mind that you also have to consider the skills you will actually be able to afford. For example, I didn't include Demon Parasitic Nova since I knew it would be hard as hell to find and/or buy.
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  • Tyramera - DreamweaverTyramera - Dreamweaver Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Keep in mind that you also have to consider the skills you will actually be able to afford.

    This is important. If 20mil coin is going to be beyond your budget for skills then, for example, sage soul degen cannot be considered a 'pro' for sage when you're making your pro and con list for each path. I suggest looking through the AH at veno skill prices, doing some price checks in faction chat or world chat and including that information in your decision. You want to decide based on which skills are likely available for you.

    Personally, I went sage mainly for soul degen. This was back before Tideborn expansion when soloing TT on veno was more profitable and knocking 20% off a boss's HP was a nice time saver. Now, since I never farm and my main focus is TW, I would probably go demon if I could switch (I know I can switch, but I've already got all my sage skills except malefic and consume spirit - so I'm sleeping in the bed I made). I would prefer demon for TW for extra crit, extra freeze skill (frost), summer sprint for anti-stun, and amp on nova. But it's not like I hate sage - extra second stun on lucky, extra pdef in foxform, aoe purge, and nice chi gain/conservation are good as well.

    You really can't go wrong with picking for veno, just think about your play style and what skills you would enjoy having most.

    I will say though - with demon - chaining absolute domain-feral concentration-summer sprint-iron guard = over 20 seconds of god mode b:dirty
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    This is important. If 20mil coin is going to be beyond your budget for skills then, for example, sage soul degen cannot be considered a 'pro' for sage when you're making your pro and con list for each path.

    That's a ridiculous reason. The choice in path is extremely important to get right as it may affect the rest of your time with that toon or be extremely expensive to undo. 20m is chump change for a Lv.100+ veno and can be made in a day with some effort. BH100 rewards are like 50 mirage (can be sold for 850k), 2 ecstacy cards (2m), 50 Mysterious Chips (can be used to get items and resell for higher), 8 ultimate substances (can be sold for 280k). Even if you're not ambitious, BH100 is a daily pot of gold that can also give you your 4th Nirvana key a day. 20M is also merely ~2/3 the cost of a Dragon Orb Ocean when on sale!

    The two paths are also comparable in PvE and PvP. People really need to just look at the skills for themselves with a little feedback on how the skills actually work like how Sage Soul Degeneration may reduce HP by 20% but so can a 5.0 in the same amount of time and that 5.0 isn't going to kill everyone's XP like SD does. I also don't think it even works on Nirvana bosses. When you become more powerful; it's more of a buffer on elite mobs (89-99) to get HP down before stealing aggro.

    There is no winning a debate on this. They're too close to say which is better for PvE or PvP.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Cheski - SanctuaryCheski - Sanctuary Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I'm only level 86 but I've decided to go sage.

    My interpretation is that demon is the better DD but it's sporadic. Like Desdi said- Hit and miss.

    So, I want to go sage because I see it as more 'reliable.'
  • Zvyn - Heavens TearZvyn - Heavens Tear Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    My interpretation is that demon is the better DD but it's sporadic. Like Desdi said- Hit and miss.

    I would hardly call it sporadic. If you have the Demon skills for your level you will do more damage regardless of whether or not the skill does what it is supposed to. The bonuses are just that, bonuses, if they kick in so much the better, but they aren't entirely necessary.
  • xxxdsmerxxxdsmer Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    demon ironwood is extremely sporadic (and extremely unreliable, at least for me).
    i went demon, and have demon venomous, ironwood, blazing, foxform, and maybe another skill or 2 lv11..

    personally i cant stand how rarely demon ironwood procs: i'd rather have the 40% debuff for 20 seconds that works all the time.

    and i've hated how leech has only an 80% chance to give HP ever since i'd put it to lv1, all the way to lv10 (which it still is): i'd rather have leech work everytime than have a chance to do 800HP.

    the 75% reflect (which currently only works PvE and TW) would be nice for demon, but so would a buff that lasts 20 minutes

    nova's mini dragons effect (67% ? chance of cursing all targets in range of the aoe) would be nice, but so could being able to cast nova more often because of only using one spark sometimes, and being able to make chi considerably faster.

    soul degeneration: takes 20% HP right off the top of anything its cast on - this would be awesome for bosses (and awesome for me b/c i still spend spare time in HH).


    but yea.. there's skills i'd miss if i switched to sage, like the extra speed boost from demon fox that stacks with summer sprint and moves me over long distances at 9.8+ m/s more often than most of the trip, and the possible 75% reflect that'd help assassins end theirselves even faster (in tw.. they should turn that and hood back on everywhere), demon venomous is handy to have one of: especially when there's several people around that do wood damage. but i hate when things dont work, and i dont like having to hope for a crit rather than being able to do more dmg everytime.

    so i went demon, got some of the skills, cant stand *chance* things - so i wish i'd went sage. takes quite a long time to kill a HH boss w/ no (or very little) pdef debuffing b/c demon ironwood doesnt want to proc, and sage soul degen would be really nice (for me anyway). and the free 50 chi per minute would speed filling 399 chi after logging in (in tandem with pethealing or shooting things with sage venomous), and without having to use genie stamina or a pot. plus that nice 40% pdef debuff from sage ironwood stacks with genie debuffs like tangling mire: so 40% pdef debuff, +tangling mire +having already purged and amped = pain. especially if you can throw in a sage spark for "+900% magic attack"

    n yea, pierce on a pet can help some w/ demon ironwood's crappy proc chance; but pierce can only keep something debuffed for 50% or less of the time, whereas sage (or even lvl 10) ironwood can keep it debuffed 100% of the time. also since i use nature's grace and metabolic boost rather than pots/charms, considering i do that even on bosses, the 60% per cast could be nicer than having a reduced cooldown (wouldnt have to nature's / metabolic / soultrans as often), but the demon cooldown reduction on NG/MB would be sweet too.


    i could see demon working for light armor since its already got some crit, or if someone can stand the hit or miss of the skills, but i'd rather have reliable skills i know will work, and i'm more pve than pvp... not to mention farming is how i make most of my coin (so i'm wishin i'd stuck with my original decision to go sage. had sage leech book since like lv60 lol)
    i'm pro all classes, and against none in particular..
    but the age old QQ about venos is just that. OLD.
    QQ'd about a nix lately? check out this thread n tell me who's "OP" lol..
    (copy and paste this to address bar):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=102172
  • Sevas - Heavens TearSevas - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,132 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    xxxdsmer wrote: »
    demon ironwood is extremely sporadic (and extremely unreliable, at least for me). It's not that sporadic. It works for me.
    i went demon, and have demon venomous, ironwood, blazing, foxform, and maybe another skill or 2 lv11..

    personally i cant stand how rarely demon ironwood procs: i'd rather have the 40% debuff for 20 seconds that works all the time. As a Demon I prefer my own.

    and i've hated how leech has only an 80% chance to give HP ever since i'd put it to lv1, all the way to lv10 (which it still is): i'd rather have leech work everytime than have a chance to do 800HP. Fox form skills were pretty lame anyway unless you went HA.

    the 75% reflect (which currently only works PvE and TW) would be nice for demon, but so would a buff that lasts 20 minutes In case you didn't notice, Demon Bramble lasts 15min with 75% deflect, sage only gets 5 extra minutes and remains at 60% deflect.

    nova's mini dragons effect (67% ? chance of cursing all targets in range of the aoe) would be nice, but so could being able to cast nova more often because of only using one spark sometimes, and being able to make chi considerably faster.

    soul degeneration: takes 20% HP right off the top of anything its cast on - this would be awesome for bosses (and awesome for me b/c i still spend spare time in HH).


    but yea.. there's skills i'd miss if i switched to sage, like the extra speed boost from demon fox that stacks with summer sprint and moves me over long distances at 9.8+ m/s 10.4 if you have demon summer more often than most of the trip, and the possible 75% reflect that'd help assassins end theirselves even faster (in tw.. they should turn that and hood back on everywhere), demon venomous is handy to have one of: especially when there's several people around that do wood damage. but i hate when things dont work, and i dont like having to hope for a crit rather than being able to do more dmg everytime. You don't have to hope for a crit. That's another one of those "bonuses."

    i could see demon working for light armor since its already got some crit, or if someone can stand the hit or miss of the skills, but i'd rather have reliable skills i know will work, and i'm more pve than pvp... not to mention farming is how i make most of my coin (so i'm wishin i'd stuck with my original decision to go sage. had sage leech book since like lv60 lol)Works fine for me and I'm vit/AA. My Ironwood works amazingly well and when it doesn't I've got it covered with amp and the myriads. I can solo instances rather well, though I haven't been able to in a long time.

    Why did you even go demon if you hate it so much? I love demon and my skills.
  • Tyramera - DreamweaverTyramera - Dreamweaver Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    tweakz wrote: »
    That's a ridiculous reason. The choice in path is extremely important to get right as it may affect the rest of your time with that toon or be extremely expensive to undo. 20m is chump change for a Lv.100+ veno and can be made in a day with some effort.

    It may be chump change for you or me, but not everyone who plays this game has time to farm a ton or the inclination to merchant. Lots of players are much more casual, or just play this as a break from some other game, or as they wait for another game to come out, or they have lots of alts and don't want to spend a ton on skills on some of them. Looking at the gear of a lot of 90-100 venos on my server, and their refines and shards, I would say that 20mil for one skill could be quite beyond the budget of a casual player that may not be in it for the long haul. At least based on gear it seems that many people don't have the desire or wherewithal to make 20mil in one or two days (or longer) with some effort.

    I only said "if" 20 mil is beyond one's budget. The OP and anyone else is free to look at that and go "pfft, 20 mil is nothing for me, I don't really have to worry about skill costs" or maybe "well, I don't play this game seriously enough to spend of the coin I do make on that skill, I'd rather use it for other things," and make judgments on sage or demon based on what does fit their coin income level and how serious they are about fully developing that class.

    At any rate, I agree with your other two paragraphs (not that I totally disagree with the first, just that there is much greater player variation than you allow). And yes, no HP reduction on Nirvana bosses.
  • Mowriyah - SanctuaryMowriyah - Sanctuary Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I have a lot of characters. But i mainly use my bm, sin, cleric and of course my venomancer. And i want great gear for them all, means i also use a lot of coins for them all, and it takes a long time before i get what i want. I will be able to get some few skills for my veno, but not all or close to.

    I duel sometimes but not often. I'm not really the pk type, but dont know if i start it one day.

    I like to spam ironwood, so i dont get chi much. Sage could fix that problem, but so could cloud eruption or whatever the genie called.

    I guess i use my veno mainly for bh, fcc and TT squads and fight in human form and ofc use the debuff when foxform.

    If i go demon, i'll be jealous of sage debuffs, their chi and their sage spark.. And some of the skills too. I'll hate ironwood for only 20% chance, since its one of my really favorite skills.
    If i go sage, i'll be jealous of their summer sprint, crits and fast when use foxform. I really want the demon summer sprint and crits, but sage is also really nice. I really dont know...
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I found an old post of mine that you might want to consider (again about Sage/Demon thing):

    The way I see it, Sage is defensive, squad-based and specialises in making the squad deal more damage for a long time while Demon is offensive and specialises in spike damage.
    Several Demon debuffs are stronger than Sage ones but they last less.

    I have stacked critical hit gear (Demon Wood Mastery helps too) and I use all of the debuffs I have (Demon Venomous, Demon Amplify Damage, Extreme Poision, Tagling mire -though it's phys debuff-, Howl/Pierce -when using dd pet-, Myriad Rainbow (both)) with some decent -% channeling (~30%-40% depending on the gear i'm wearing -i switch between gear to match my needs-) and that makes me deal some massive damage....as long as I time the right skills correctly. Also, sometimes the Demon skills might work and save you or might not work and kill you (eg. Demon Leech). I love playing that way, I'm having great fun there. Always trying to make up the best combinations, wondering what critical I will do next. I cannot expect the results, it's always different because my debuffs will not work 100% of the time like most Sage skills (Ironwood, Leech etc. )

    Keep in mind howerver that:
    -Chi may be a problem from time to time since you can't always build it fast (Ironwood & Myriads eat chi like crazy if you spam them and there is no free chi skill). After Demon
    Lending Hand though, things might be different. (and it was, once I got Demon Lending hand and crush vigor I am able to build chi faster, crush vigor has 50% to give you a spark and i use it as an opener before using amp + combo)
    -High Critical Hit ratio (and your skills in general) might cause you to steal aggro a lot. My pets are unable to keep aggro from me most of the time so I need to be prepared or not DD much.

    I modified the quote a little to match with my venomancer in her current state. (such as the -channeling part)
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • LongWushi - Heavens TearLongWushi - Heavens Tear Posts: 138 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I have a lot of characters. But i mainly use my bm, sin, cleric and of course my venomancer. And i want great gear for them all, means i also use a lot of coins for them all, and it takes a long time before i get what i want. I will be able to get some few skills for my veno, but not all or close to. Then you really need to look at the skills you know you will be getting and compare the Demon v Sage for them.

    I duel sometimes but not often. I'm not really the pk type, but dont know if i start it one day.

    I like to spam ironwood, so i dont get chi much. Sage could fix that problem, but so could cloud eruption or whatever the genie called. Duh! I have cloud eruption for my veno, works like a champ. Besides, when you get to 99 Lending Hand is an awesome skill. "Chance" to send the target two sparks at the cost of one, meaning you can send yourself a spark.

    I guess i use my veno mainly for bh, fcc and TT squads and fight in human form and ofc use the debuff when foxform. The only debuff that really makes a difference in Sage v. Demon is Soul Degen with the Sharpened Tooth affect. Arguing amp's bonuses is pointless because the difference comes out to be negligible. Since the dawn of time, the purge argument only turned out to be good in certain instances, like TW.

    If i go demon, i'll be jealous of sage debuffs, their chi and their sage spark.. And some of the skills too. I'll hate ironwood for only 20% chance, since its one of my really favorite skills. Why hate Ironwood? At L11 it's still one of your strongest hitting skills. It can easily be covered with the "chances" from the Myriad 79 skills.
    If i go sage, i'll be jealous of their summer sprint, crits and fast when use foxform. I really want the demon summer sprint and crits, but sage is also really nice. I really dont know...Is the speed and crits your only reason for going demon?

    I'm biased, I have a preference to demon venos and I always will. Of course, my veno is demon and I love her. Demon and Sage venos can work very well together if they're will to watch out for each other's debuffs. Not many do that.
  • zbzkdazbzkda Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Hi:

    Why is it that whenever someone asks this question, people find it necessary to to shoot down other peoples' responses? Why can't you...state your own case, and then shut up without replying in a harsh tone to someone else's own playing experience?


    @OP: I went demon because I like moving very quickly and I'm very impatient, and I also was swayed very much by the following:
      * 3 & 1/2 min cooldown on Nature's Grace and Metabolic Boost. * 6 second anti-stun on Summer sprint, which means I can use Feral concentration without needing genie Fortify, and can therefore use genie Expel more readily when I need to. * 6 second wood debuff on Venomous Scarab. * 3 second freeze on Frost Scarab. * Amp effect on Parasitic Nova.

    The following are things I believe I am missing out on by not having gone sage:
      * 3 second stun duration on Lucky Scarab. * 30% amp on Sage amp.

    I have begun soloing TT in squad mode since I hit lvl91. I do not find myself at any time, whether during PvE or PvP, feeling like I should have gone sage, and I don't miss anything other than Sage amplify damage while doing TT, and sage Lucky Scarab while PKing. I must say though, the extent to which I miss those two skills is pretty big, since a 3 second stun is just plain pr0 :)

    If I had gone sage, I imagine that I would have missed:
    • Everything I listed as a deciding factor above for me going demon.

    I was looking at several other similar threads, and I noticed that whenever a pro-sage lobbyist gave workarounds for sages to use to regain the advantages of demon, they were generally genie skills. The problem with compensating with your genie is that you can only use one genie skill at a time, with a long period between one skill's use and the next.

    For example, nobody uses Extreme poison in PK, since it makes more sense to keep the genie open for Absolute Domain or Expel, given the existence of our wonderful friends, the assassins. Additionally, have to use genie Fortify for anti stun as opposed to having Demon Summer Sprint is again, a bad thing since you could have saved that genie skill use window for AD or Expel, and NOT have died when INEVITABLY an assassin pops out on you while you're enjoying PKing.

    Venomancers don't have that many control skills, so a 3 second freeze on Frost Scarab is probably more useful than sage Frost's increased damage, given that a rank 9 BM with magic marrow (or anything else rank 9) will not be dead after you use it anyway. But if you can freeze him for 3 seconds, you're more able to take control of the situation. Also, Demon speed boost again steps in here against melee opponents...something you cannot replace. Unless you're going to argue that Holy Path will supplement that. But again, you're missing an opportunity to live through a sin stunlock by sacrificing Expel.


    In the case of the Demon veno defending being demon and giving workarounds for lacking a 3 second stun, if you say Occult Ice can be used to replace that then you're making sense since occult ice being used in PK actually makes sense, as opposed to the sage arguments which involve using things like Extreme Poison (??) etc. And for the 30% amp vs. 20% amp, if you can't kill an opponent with a whole 26 seconds of extra damage from both you and your pet, then you probably just...can't kill that opponent period.
    I seriously wonder: people who don't RPK, if you play the board game "Sorry!" and you roll the dice so that you land on an opponents piece and send it back to the beginning, do you sincerely apologize and ask everyone if you can have a do-over roll so you can give your victim another chance? It's a god damn game..

    --LongKnife
  • ColdSnow - DreamweaverColdSnow - Dreamweaver Posts: 983 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Well first at all for Soul Degen. it debuffs 20%. Archers Sharptooth 16% and Deicide rebuff less than Archers. So Venos SD wins. This debuff doesnt stack as well.


    And as for rest. There is no wrong nor right. I m sage veno. I love it. If i have a chance to chose again i would go for sage. Why? Cause amp, ironwood, SD are awesome debuffs.
    And for those who think sage amp is same as demon: as for time and dmg only with this debuff yes. As for time and dmg with all other debuffs no. Cause i been many times with demon venos on squad...their Ironwood was useless. It didnt work once, rather removed my debuff. So sage amp+sage IW rocks.

    The only thing that i really want to have as demon..is short cool down on DD skills. Hell if you have high channel..its useless cause sometimes you cant press any buttons at all due cool down. Thats the only thing that hurts me (ALOT).

    As for demon nova..i love it. i know it makes more dmg than sage gas. yet i m fine with it, since gad doesnt cost any chi. So i actually dont pay much attention to it.

    If you want to do more dmg..demon. If you rather prefer to play a passive role then sage.

    As for pk. Sure Demon wins here due faster cool down. Yet i m on pve server, i dont care.
    If i m trolling and spamming on forum...then i cant sleep and need a good laugh
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I've done plenty of pvp as a sage and I don't see anything from demon that I ever needed. Anything a demon gets that a sage doesn't can be made up for in other ways, same with what a demon gets that a sage doesn't. In the end its entirely based on how you like to play.

    I prefer skills that I know will work rather than ones that can frequently fail. (how many times have I said that in these topics now? I lost count. lol )
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Vitenka - DreamweaverVitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Sage personally - and loving it.
    Demon ironwood is wonderful, when it works. Lots of demon veno's complain that they'd rather not have learnt it and would have prefered to have stayed with level10 for the guarantee.

    Demon venomous, however, is utterly lovely. And their runspeed boost is also yummy. (We get better defence though, so it's a playstyle thing.)

    Our amps are balanced over time, sage is very slightly better if the fight is shorter or if the teammates are good at making sure their big skills' cooldowns coincide.

    But demon and sage are VERY well balanced for venos (as opposed to, say, Archers - who DO have a better sharpened arrow if they go sage, but, um, pretty much never do)

    Demons get a much prettier spark animation.

    So pays yer money and takes yer choice. (Go sage! Not enough people do! We're the good guys! Also, Degen+Amp=50% damage right there. Sit back and gloat. Ironwood+pet is just gravy.)
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    (Go sage! Not enough people do! We're the good guys! )
    No, you gotta join the dark side b:sin
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • LenieClarke - Heavens TearLenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    i'm still leaning demon --- but i'm also still reading threads like this one, and still thinking about it.

    sage soul degen is a huge reason i'm not just already shopping for demon veno books in AH; passing that up would actually hurt. demon venomous and demon fox wallop, though... sound yummy.

    sage fox form would add defenses, which would be good... but demon fox form / demon spark is more tailored to melee attacks while in fox, and that's kindof what i want to be doing once i go HA anyway, to play more down the lines of how a seeker plays.

    demon amp's better if i'm the only veno in the squad, or am soloing. sage amp's better otherwise. sage purge --- i can see might have uses in TW, but i'm still not interested in ever PvP'ing.

    then there's the speed boost, and i'm a speed addict... plus it might be handy with feral. at least it'd give me more leeway in how to build my genies, not having to stick an antistun on them or ignore feral concentration.

    demon ironwood i wouldn't bother getting, that'd be a downgrade instead of an upgrade.

    still thinking it over, nineteen levels to go...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.
  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Sage Soul Degeneration was the skill that gave me the most trouble in whether to decide Sage vs. Demon. Sure, a lot of the other Sage skills have their perks, but the Demon skills appealed more to me.

    What finally swung it for me was the thought that even though solo'ing things might take a little longer, I'd be using skills that I like better, so I'd be having more fun in the process. Once I got Demon Nova, I got the hang of managing my sparks so that I could Amp, Wallop, transform, red spark, and Nova all in quick succession. I haven't done the math, but stacking Nova on top of Amp definitely helps to close the gap created by Sage Soul Degen.

    I understand why people don't like Demon Ironwood, but I still love it. You're at a slight disadvantage when solo'ing, but in my experience, spamming Ironwood and both myriads make the effect proc enough that I don't miss the guarantee. In the squad situation, a cleric with level 11 Dimensional Seal or a barb with even level 7 Devour has a p.def reduction either the same or stronger than the Sage Ironwood. If you're running with a mystic who uses their Befuddling Creeper, you've got another chance at the same. albeit weaker, debuff. I love Demon Ironwood for squads. It just takes a little coordination to make sure that any overwriting that's done is done by the veno.

    As far as the books go, the cost is really not as bad as it sounds. If you run the Cube of Fate daily from level 91+, you'll get a level 99 skill every month (even faster if you, like the OP, have multiple characters that can cube everyday). Find RB squads and help people with culti to get your old book pages. Sell drops and buy tokens to make books (or turn in those pages for the bookclip). No one says you have to spend 30 mil on a book in the AH. Although, if you've farmed 6 repeat 5mil books, you've covered your cost already.
  • ColdSnow - DreamweaverColdSnow - Dreamweaver Posts: 983 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Once I got Demon Nova, I got the hang of managing my sparks so that I could Amp, Wallop, transform, red spark, and Nova all in quick succession. I haven't done the math, but stacking Nova on top of Amp definitely helps to close the gap created by Sage Soul Degen

    Sorry...but you are actually saying you can do same dmg with nova as SD with 20% HP debuff?

    Lets say a small mini boss 11mil HP > Sage SD > 2,2mil HP less

    So..you actually can do 2,2mil dmg with demon nova?
    If i m trolling and spamming on forum...then i cant sleep and need a good laugh
  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    I said close the gap, not equal it out. It won't be as much as Sage Soul Degen, but a spark on top of two amps does more damage than a spark on top of one amp.

    Bosses it won't come close, but there are plenty of Sage Venos who use SSD on mobs as well. In that case, sure, I think it'd make up for it.
  • Vitenka - DreamweaverVitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Absolutely. Soul degen is primarily an antiboss skill - but it's worht using even on 90+ trashmobs if you happen to already be in fox.

    Given cooldowns, I found my fastest play now is to alternate - degen one mob, amp the next one etc. Fuddling mist as my main attack, with leech life and siphon soul to top it up when they cooldown.

    Edit: I don't even remember what demon foxy-wallop DOES. But I remember it looked good.
  • LenieClarke - Heavens TearLenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Edit: I don't even remember what demon foxy-wallop DOES. But I remember it looked good.

    20% chance to make all hits critical for 5 seconds... b:dirty
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    5 seconds is too short to be worth it.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • LongWushi - Heavens TearLongWushi - Heavens Tear Posts: 138 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    5 seconds is too short to be worth it.

    And yet that's about how long the debuff on Heaven's Flame lasts.
  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    At -65% channel or better (which is not at all uncommon for endgame), you can easily get 3+ spells in that 5 seconds if you're paying attention.

    Or if you're a fox form veno, you can get a fair amount of regular attacks in 5 seconds.
  • LenieClarke - Heavens TearLenieClarke - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,275 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    five seconds should be six or seven regular attacks from a 1.25aps magic weapon.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.
  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    five seconds should be six or seven regular attacks from a 1.25aps magic weapon.

    Or 10+ attacks with a magic sword if you go the aps route.
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    Not everyone cares about aps. Not everyone can afford it Even if I was a heavy veno (I nearly was once, I just didn't buy the restats) I would ignore it. Being overpowered is simply not fun.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    For the Demon Ironwood issue;
    Nobody forces you to learn the Demon version of it. However, you should keep in mind that there is a considerable boost in the damage it deals.
    Also, there are many options to make up for it if it doesn't proc. In the cases it doesn't I have the two Myriads, Tangling Mire on my genie (which I use after Demon Amplify Damage + Extreme Poison anyway) and my pet's Pierce. It's 36% physical defence reduction. That's stronger than lvl10 Ironwood and close to Sage's 40%. And like somebody mentioned, there is also the Cleric, the Barbarian and the Mystic that can help with it as well. Of course, when I'm tanking I don't have my pet with Pierce on it but most of the time when that happens I'm either soloing, trying to save a squad from total wipe or helping someone. In instances now I barely get to actually tank for the obvious reasons.

    For Demon Fox Wallop;
    I don't have it but you're making me want to buy it now...it's pretty cheap,too so why not. I love criticals. Recently bought Demon Melee Mastery as well to get up to 14% critical rate. I'm also aiming to get Demon Parasitic Nova via Cube.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Phoenix_Eye - Heavens TearPhoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,681 Arc User
    edited June 2011
    For the Demon Ironwood issue;
    Nobody forces you to learn the Demon version of it. However, you should keep in mind that there is a considerable boost in the damage it deals.
    Also, there are many options to make up for it if it doesn't proc. In the cases it doesn't I have the two Myriads, Tangling Mire on my genie (which I use after Demon Amplify Damage + Extreme Poison anyway) and my pet's Pierce. It's 36% physical defence reduction. That's stronger than lvl10 Ironwood and close to Sage's 40%. And like somebody mentioned, there is also the Cleric, the Barbarian and the Mystic that can help with it as well. Of course, when I'm tanking I don't have my pet with Pierce on it but most of the time when that happens I'm either soloing, trying to save a squad from total wipe or helping someone. In instances now I
    barely get to actually tank for the obvious reasons.

    For Demon Fox Wallop;
    I don't have it but you're making me want to buy it now...it's pretty cheap,too so why not. I love criticals. Recently bought Demon Melee Mastery as well to get up to 14% critical rate. I'm also aiming to get Demon Parasitic Nova via Cube.

    This this this .

    after all Veno isnt just for debuffing , venos deal dmg too and Sage/Demon ironwood hits hard. Ill go sage myself but demon ironwood is a skill i will miss a lot (along venomous and nova)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    <--- MALE Veno ..... Moved to G W 2 or maybe not completely , don't know ...... PW addiction
    {That TT xbow chain is one that describes someone's bowel movements after having too much spicy food. A loud **** (Thundercrack), then a burning sensation (Flash Fire), followed by an explosion of multi-colored poo-confetti (Blinding Radiance). Excellent...} By Quilue
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