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Myriad Rainbow and Sage Soul Degen?

ugysekellugysekell Posts: 16 Arc User
edited November 2010 in Venomancer
Hey I'm planning to get Myriad Rainbow (fox form) and mainly want to use it on mobs/bosses in FCC but I heard if I get the bleeding effect I will steal aggro from the Barb (after he aggroed them). Is this true? :S Should I get it anyways?

I'm Demon but I'd like to know if Sage Soul Degeneration works like Archer's Sharpened Tooth Arrow or not... Like, does it decrease the exp we get from bosses? An Archer recently told a Sage Veno to not use it on FCC bosses because we get less exp and she was like **** THAT'S NOT TRUE. lol.

Sorry for my bad English and thanks for the help. b:shutup
Post edited by ugysekell on
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Comments

  • Segreta - SanctuarySegreta - Sanctuary Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I use Myriad Rainbow all the time on FCC...and I don't remember to ever steal agro.
    (As a Veno,putting Bramble on Barb would probably prevent that).

    Idk about Sage Stuff,Im Demon ^^
    Iam Segreta,Queen of the Chicken Kingdom,proud owner of the legendary Blue Chicken,BEHOLD Mortals o,o^
    Current # Chickens:
    ^,^ <- My Cleric <3
    o,o <- My Veno
    n_n <- My Bm
    =,= <- My Barb *Used as Mount*
    >,o <- My Sin(Stealth all the time for no reason)
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The archer was right. Generally archers are dumb and get the STA thing wrong, but good on that archer if he told the veno, who is even less likely to fully understand the effects of max HP reduction and how, when it's used properly, it nerfs experience. STA and sage soul degen are horrible to use in frost. For any sage veno with sage soul degen, it's good to use on the two bosses that leech and regenerate lots of HP (fragrance and nix) but wait until they are below 80% health.
  • ugysekellugysekell Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I'mma get Myriad then! I'm always very careful and only AoE after Barb's aggro... unlike some people. :P
    I wasn't sure about Sage Soul Degen... Thanks to both of you!
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I'd still recommend sage soul degen though -- it's a very good skill. I will emphasize it's usefulness in TT (especially for a soloing veno doing squad mode TT), unless it's found later on to nerf drops (haven't seen anyone suggest this nor have I personally noticed that and nor has there really been any tests run on it unlike the exp part) as well. Also useful for WB's, RB (bosses), BH, WS, and instances where it actually works (i.e. not COA or Nirvana).
  • Desdi - SanctuaryDesdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Just to add my 2 cents. If you get the Wood of Bleed DoT from Myriad, it does generate aggro but it is not strong enough to actually steal aggro from a Barbarian or a pet.

    If you buy the fox form Myriad Rainbow remember to be careful when you use it at the boss in 'exp room' so that you won't AoE/DoT the mob that spawns. You can use the Blademaster's Heaven's Flame as reference to when to use it (that if the Blademaster knows what he's doing...).
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  • Silest - SanctuarySilest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The archer was right. Generally archers are dumb and get the STA thing wrong, but good on that archer if he told the veno, who is even less likely to fully understand the effects of max HP reduction and how, when it's used properly, it nerfs experience. STA and sage soul degen are horrible to use in frost. For any sage veno with sage soul degen, it's good to use on the two bosses that leech and regenerate lots of HP (fragrance and nix) but wait until they are below 80% health.
    I just bought soul degeneration 2 days ago -.-. And now I'm discouraged in using it.

    Figures such a good skill had a catch to it =/.
  • Heavenberry - DreamweaverHeavenberry - Dreamweaver Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    First
    Both of the myriad ranbow's DoTs generate agro, but the agro rating is the same as Blazing Scarab/other classes's DoTs. You can steal with it if the barb hasn't hit the boss yet and you already casted 1 of the myriads. The flesh ream effect DOES replace the barb's flesh ream, but doesn't nullify it's agro.

    Second
    Sage soul degenerations is better than a lvl 10 STA and the same as a sage archer's lvl 11 STA. Also in FCC it can quite cut the time killing a boss with an ordinary squad, that can't kill the boss in 30 seconds. Because after the 30 seconds max HP debuff expires (both for Archers AND Venomancers) the exp that's gotten from the boss is normal. It's bad to use SD/STA on -5 interval squads or super DD squads, that can kill every boss under 30 sec.
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  • Silest - SanctuarySilest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Now that's a relief. b:victory
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    My wife, who has a bazillion times better luck than I do opening packs or opening skill book pages, had soul degeneration for me. Had this been when my veno hit 92 or a few months after I would have easily taken and used it -- instead I sold it for 22m. I pretty much had quit playing my veno (my BM was at 5 APS and my cleric 6K HP buffed and 10.3K MP) and when I used my veno during Nirvana runs (I'd play my veno and BM, she'd play her cleric and BM) there was obviously no point to having sage soul degen as it doesn't work in Nirvana, but if I were at your level I'd definitely, without a doubt, use it. You've got a lot of farming ahead of you, and w/e TT (or archer-less RB) squad you're in will appreciate the Sage SD. If you're gonna use Sage SD on the two bosses where SD is really useful in FF, just wait until their health is less than 80%. I will admit though at 95 the first two boss XP pretty much sucks so if I were doing FF on my veno and had Sage SD I'd probably use it on the first two. I wish Sage SD were an AOE like STA to be used on the first many group of mobs who give you like 30 - 100 XP per kill.

    I will also correct Heavenberry. On any boss that's 500K - 1M HP, besides maybe a very long Fragrance/Nix fight, no bosses will regenerate 150-250K HP with a squad at Silest's level, especially if there is a veno using level 10 or 11 soul degen. The "faster" part is really a moot point, as you're nerfing ~20% XP (20 - 60K XP per later boss) to STA a boss at the beginning of a fight to make it some seconds shorter. Even if it takes a matter of seconds longer to kill a boss, it makes zero sense to purposely nerf your own XP and everyone else's (especially that much XP) in an XP instance.
  • tweakztweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The bosses in FF don't give that much XP anyway, FB bosses' XP are fixed by the tab. It's useful on mobs in FB89/99 so I can reduce HP w/o much aggro and kill before I steal it from Herc. The XP loss is often worth the time it saves.
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  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    At 95 the bosses, especially from Messenger and on, will give, with 12x hyper, around 300 - 600K. That's maybe 2-4%? I suppose if the entire squad wasn't using hyper it wouldn't be a big deal, but that's highly doubtful. Nerfing one's self by well over 100K XP isn't exactly a wise thing to do to save some seconds to a few minutes off a FF run.
  • Heavenberry - DreamweaverHeavenberry - Dreamweaver Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    (^^') Depends if you want to finish the run faster or with more exp in the pocket. Allthough for me; faster run > 80-100k~ish exp. Other people prefer it the other way around.
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  • Regenbogen - Lost CityRegenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    just ask your squad if they want to kill the boss faster to get to big room or want more exp/hyper the boss...b:bye
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Also ask them if they plan on doing runs all day. Some who are doing 1 or 2 runs might not like the idea of nerfing xp for a "faster run" when they're not doing a bunch of them -- and again, we're not talking faster by much at level 95. I can see the issue being one if you're 95 and with mostly 80s and the run takes forever, and want to just move it along. In all likelihood, this isn't the case. A 95 (usually 95+) squad with any decent damage dealers (not even talking about full of DPS, just ppl who do damage and not like 3 clerics) will knock out that 100 - 250K in a matter of seconds.

    Don't get me wrong, I like fast runs. I hate it when people idle and afk a multitude of times. But I'm also not trying to set a world record for fastest FF runs. I think it would be fair to the squad to ask them beforehand if they don't mind nerfing their xp ~ 20% for every boss to save seconds to a couple minutes on the entire run.
  • Gwendolynne - Heavens TearGwendolynne - Heavens Tear Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    My wife, who has a bazillion times better luck than I do opening packs or opening skill book pages, had soul degeneration for me. Had this been when my veno hit 92 or a few months after I would have easily taken and used it -- instead I sold it for 22m. I pretty much had quit playing my veno (my BM was at 5 APS and my cleric 6K HP buffed and 10.3K MP) and when I used my veno during Nirvana runs (I'd play my veno and BM, she'd play her cleric and BM) there was obviously no point to having sage soul degen as it doesn't work in Nirvana, but if I were at your level I'd definitely, without a doubt, use it. You've got a lot of farming ahead of you, and w/e TT (or archer-less RB) squad you're in will appreciate the Sage SD. If you're gonna use Sage SD on the two bosses where SD is really useful in FF, just wait until their health is less than 80%. I will admit though at 95 the first two boss XP pretty much sucks so if I were doing FF on my veno and had Sage SD I'd probably use it on the first two. I wish Sage SD were an AOE like STA to be used on the first many group of mobs who give you like 30 - 100 XP per kill.

    I will also correct Heavenberry. On any boss that's 500K - 1M HP, besides maybe a very long Fragrance/Nix fight, no bosses will regenerate 150-250K HP with a squad at Silest's level, especially if there is a veno using level 10 or 11 soul degen. The "faster" part is really a moot point, as you're nerfing ~20% XP (20 - 60K XP per later boss) to STA a boss at the beginning of a fight to make it some seconds shorter. Even if it takes a matter of seconds longer to kill a boss, it makes zero sense to purposely nerf your own XP and everyone else's (especially that much XP) in an XP instance.


    I'm sorry I hjust have to correct you here. I have tested Sage Soul Degen in Frost on all bosses. Same Squad two runs with with Soul Degen and one Without. Gained the exact same EXP on the bosses and I wasn't using hypers. Besides, once you get to the 95+ area lots of them Archers and BMs and Barbs use Decides which Proc an HP reduction that goes off enough to have the debuff activated anyway.

    @OP: However, use at the parties discretion. Some people will throw a fit and it causes way less irritation to just not use it if they don't want you to.

    Just know that Sage Soul Degen is Amazing in TTs, BHs, FBs, etc. It especially helps with soloing and combined with your other Sage Skills you are pumping out a lot of debuffs and crippling damage. So Its worth the energy and money to get it. My Myriad and Degen have more then paid for themselves.
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  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I'm sorry I hjust have to correct you here. I have tested Sage Soul Degen in Frost on all bosses. Same Squad two runs with with Soul Degen and one Without. Gained the exact same EXP on the bosses and I wasn't using hypers. Besides, once you get to the 95+ area lots of them Archers and BMs and Barbs use Decides which Proc an HP reduction that goes off enough to have the debuff activated anyway.

    @OP: However, use at the parties discretion. Some people will throw a fit and it causes way less irritation to just not use it if they don't want you to.

    Just know that Sage Soul Degen is Amazing in TTs, BHs, FBs, etc. It especially helps with soloing and combined with your other Sage Skills you are pumping out a lot of debuffs and crippling damage. So Its worth the energy and money to get it. My Myriad and Degen have more then paid for themselves.
    Unfortunately Heavy Armor veno who uses a pataka has it wrong again:

    Here is STA explained, by archers (same effect as Sage SD) who spent several threads testing and researching:
    -- Sharpened Tooth Arrow Explained --

    A common question on the Archer forums is how the Sharpened Tooth Arrow skill works. This post will explain the details and nuances in its entirety.

    As I would like this to be the end-all and be-all of Sharpened Tooth Arrow answers, please comment and criticize anything.

    -- Short and Practical Answer --

    Get it. Max it. Use it.

    When killing something with high HP, such as a boss or mini-boss, use this skill immediately after the tank has hit once or twice. Afterwards, do whatever you normally do to kill it. There is no need to use this skill twice (unless you missed).

    Link: Short and Sweet Example by Lady Asterelle.

    -- Basic Mechanics --

    Ignoring Sage and Demon qualities, this Skill has three parts to it:
    1) It is an Area-of-Effect skill.
    2) It deals some inherent damage to the target(s).
    3) It reduces the Maximum Health of the target(s). This is done as a 30-second debuff.

    The last effect is the most important and confusing part of the skill. The HP Debuff immediately lowers the Maximum Health of the target for 30 seconds, by the percentage stated in the skill (max 16%). As a result of this, the Current Health of the target also gets lowered immediately. After the HP Debuff is applied, the inherent damage of the skill gets factored.

    After 30 seconds, the HP debuff goes away. At this point, the Maximum Health is restored to its normal value, but the Current Health stays at its present value.

    Example: Basic Usage

    Suppose we have an archer at level 70 with a level 6 Sharptooth Arrow; this would cause an HP Debuff of 10% of the target's Maximum Health. The target is a boss with 1 million Health Points.

    The following would be the progression of the battle. For simplicity's sake, we do not factor in the inherent damage of the skill.

    - Start
    - Boss HP: 1,000,000 (current) / 1,000,000 (max) => 100% of HP bar is filled

    - The archer uses STA. This lowers the Boss's HP by 10%, giving it a Maximum Health of 900,000 HP.
    - Boss HP: 900,000 / 900,000 (100% of HP bar is filled)

    - Squad does 50,000 damage.
    - Boss HP: 850,000 / 900,000 (94.44% of HP bar is filled)

    - HP Debuff goes away because 30 seconds have passed.
    - Boss HP: 850,000 / 1,000,000 (85% of HP bar is filled)

    As you can see, the target's current HP was lowered by 10% with a single usage of this skill (at skill level 6). This effect is immediate. When the HP Debuff goes away, the Current Health does not go up.

    Example: Repeated Usage (Continuation)

    Continuing with the above example, you can fire Sharpened Tooth Arrow again, but it does not do anything else beyond its basic damage. Thus:

    - Continuation from previous example.
    - Boss HP: 850,000 / 1,000,000 (85% of HP bar is filled)

    - Squad does another 75,000 damage.
    - Boss HP: 775,000 / 1,000,000 (77.50% of HP bar is filled)

    - You decide to use STA again.
    - Boss HP: 775,000 / 900,000 (86.11% of HP bar is filled)

    As you may have noticed, the actual percentage filled within the target's HP bar can vary depending on what stage of Sharpened Tooth Arrow you are at (before and after Debuff). The most important thing to realize is that the percentage usually does not matter; it can go up or down depending on if you use STA again. What's important is the actual Current Health always goes down numerically, assuming the target neither heals itself nor has HP Recovery.

    Example: Screenshots

    The following screenshots was provided by Sir Dractonis:

    - Boss before STA.
    - 2010-01-3017-52-29.jpg

    - Charging STA. Debuff has been applied.
    - 2010-01-3017-52-33.jpg

    - Fired STA. Damage has been applied.
    - 2010-01-3017-52-35.jpg

    - HP back to normal after 30-second time duration
    - 2010-01-3017-53-26.jpg

    -- "Stacking" Sharpened Tooth Arrow --

    Some people wonder what happens if two Archers with STA at different levels both use the skill at the same target.

    The short answer is as follows: regardless of who attacks first, you get the benefit of the higher level STA.

    The longer explanation is that the both HP Debuffs apply immediately, and they overwrite each other. This is best explained by an example for each case. We assume Archer10 and Archer16 have Sharpened Tooth Arrow skills that give an HP Debuff of 10% and 16%, respectively. The target has 1 million Health Points.

    Example 1: Archer10 goes before Archer16.

    - Start
    - Boss HP: 1,000,000 (current) / 1,000,000 (max) => 100% of HP bar is filled

    - Archer10 uses STA. This lowers the Boss's Max HP by 10%, giving it a Maximum Health of 900,000 HP.
    - Boss HP: 900,000 / 900,000 (100% of HP bar is filled)

    - Archer16 uses STA. This new HP Debuff overwrites the previous one.
    - Boss HP: 840,000 / 840,000 (100% of HP bar is filled)

    As you can see, the Boss has 840,000 HP, which is due to Archer16.

    Example 2: Archer16 goes before Archer10

    - Start
    - Boss HP: 1,000,000 (current) / 1,000,000 (max) => 100% of HP bar is filled

    - Archer16 uses STA. This lowers the Boss's Max HP by 16%, giving it a Maximum Health of 840,000 HP.
    - Boss HP: 840,000 / 840,000 (100% of HP bar is filled)

    - Archer10 uses STA. This new HP Debuff overwrites the previous one. However, Current Health stays the same.
    - Boss HP: 840,000 / 900,000 (93.33% of HP bar is filled)

    As you can see, the Boss has 840,000 HP, which is due to Archer16.

    -- Sage and Demon --

    - Sage Sharpened Tooth Arrow has applies an HP Debuff of 20% (instead of 16%, at level 10).

    - Demon Sharpened Tooth Arrow grants the archer a 10% increase in critical rate for 15 seconds. This increase does not stack with the increase granted from Demon Stunning Arrow.

    -- Miscellaneous Details --

    - The HP Debuff does not really count toward aggro. This is because it is not really damage dealt. Instead, it's just a max HP debuff, which just so happens to also lower the current HP if necessary. The inherent damage dealt by the attack does count toward aggro.

    - Some archers equip a low level bow so they do not risk drawing aggro with the skill's inherent damage. I personally do not think this is necessary, as you have Winged Shell and Wings of Grace in case you steal aggro.

    - Some archers forget this skill is an AoE. If you use this skill on Twilight Temple monsters (which I recommend), be careful of hitting more than one at a time.

    - Some archers wait until after the HP Debuff before attacking. This is not due to any limitation of the skill or anything complicated. Instead, the archer doesn't want to draw aggro and thus is letting the tank build aggro for 30 seconds. In essence, the archer is using the HP Debuff as a 30 second timer.

    - "With a maxed sharptooth if you add the basic damage of the attack to the initial HP loss of the effect it can often be more damaging than take aim or deadly shot as an openner." - Lady Asterelle.

    - The HP Debuff works in PvP and suffers no reduction in effectiveness. The damage is reduced per normal damage reduction, in PvP. Note that in PvP, after 30 seconds, the target can heal back to full health using healing abilities.

    - "In PVP sharptooth shines not only from the initial debuff and basic damage but also by the charm refresh of the opponent being less effective." - Lady Asterelle.

    - Some bosses execute special attacks when they reach a certain health percentage. You can influence when this occurs by using Sharpened Tooth Arrow to change the health percentage. An example is given here, by Sir Cirdan.

    - Mobs that die after sharptooth actually give you less XP / SP. This is due to the fact that you deal less damage than normal. Researched here.

    -- Similar Abilities --

    There are a few other abilities that have similar effects to Sharpened Tooth Arrow. This includes (but is not limited to):

    - The Archer skill Blood Vow (level 100) applies an HP Debuff of 18%. This does not stack with Sharptooth Arrow, much like two Sharptooth Arrows do not stack.

    - The Sage version of the Venomancer skill Soul Degeneration applies an HP Debuff of 20%. It is assumed this does not stack with Sharptooth Arrow, though it has not been verified.

    - The Genie skill Ice Blast applies an HP Debuff. It is assumed this does not stack with Sharptooth Arrow, though it has not been verified.

    To reiterate for HA pataka veno, experience is relative to HP and damage done -- which is why when people outside of a squad fight the same mob both parties get XP (instead of all of the XP going to the squad who did the most damage), the one who did most damage gets the most XP. STA/Sage SD results, when used properly, a % HP reduction which the game does not recognize as damage dealt -- this results in % XP loss relative to the both the % XP loss by the max HP decrease skill used, and the mob's HP when the archer or veno (or even BM with deicides or someone else with a weapon relative to the effect of soul infect) hits with that skill.

    Hope some other venos learn from this. Sage SD is not a smart thing to use in FF unless the squad says it's ok. In the case of deicides there's nothing really to do about it -- but it's soul infect only does 10% opposed to the 20% of Sage SD, and using deicides on my BM, it usually proc'd just around 90% of boss health or before, and that was with 2.86 APS

    Lesson? Be highly skeptical of Gwen for veno advice.
  • Gwendolynne - Heavens TearGwendolynne - Heavens Tear Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I'm a wonderful Veno. HA, Pataka and all. =D~ Don't be a hater Mr. Derogatory. All I did was correct with my findings.

    Like I said before, I went on two runs back to back, with the same squad to test it. Same XP was gained no matter what was done.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    Gwendolynne : 101/SageVeno - Xyleena : 102/DemonCleric
    Delecroix : 101/DemonSin - Anatoxin : 9x/SagePsy
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  • AnimaBlanc - SanctuaryAnimaBlanc - Sanctuary Posts: 555 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I dont think spending around 20 to 25M ( depending on your server i suppose ) on soul degen is worth it in the end for people who do not have it.
    I'm one of those that doesn't have it and i'm not sure i'll ever bother O.o ...
    I got more cons than pro's atm to that skill and yesterday was another example.

    With the rise of these highly fast, pro, uber and fast hitting Aps, people have become a bit damage h0rny instead of looking at what skills actually -do-.
    I wont be naming here and i dont mean to offend these people either IF they read this and even remember that run.

    FCC run, Me another veno, pshy, assassin, Bm and my cleric husband.
    zooming through FCC like mad we eventually ended up at the Decaying fragrance and i KNOW that using soul degen opposed to Amplify makes a difference on this boss.
    in this case the other veno was quick as hell ( my respects to her ) which kinda prevented me from doing it.
    But as soon as we got there she used amp instead of soul degen, i stated that using soul degen was used on Fragrance instead of Amp and according to her it wasn't so and Amp was FTW.
    Who needs soul degen with this kind of DD? was her responce...

    i just kinda went.. Okay~... and didn't bother with it cause this squad was all about speed, high dd and getting it done as quick as possible. I'm not flaming these people or saying their wrong for doing so just saying that that's not what i'm used to or how i run FCC with people i usually run to and prefer. ^^
    we all have our preference, ne ?

    Point i'm making is...
    Why invest in a skill that's probably going to the "yeah it's nice for such and such occasions, BUT hardly ever occur cause the majority of people dont do it that way anymore" corner
    versus a skill that in nearly ANY case is handy and appreciated, doesn't nerf exp or raises the aggitation of people thinking it nerfs exp...

    Just my thoughts and 2 cents...
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  • Silest - SanctuarySilest - Sanctuary Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Been using it in FCC..

    No xp nerf so far..
  • Tyramera - DreamweaverTyramera - Dreamweaver Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Been reading this thread and decided to go test myself whether sage soul degen causes reduced xp.

    I killed the Bulldoc Massacres just outside village of dreaming cloud. Didn't bother with pet, just did normal attack in fox form, with amp, and triple sparked when I had chi.

    Four trials

    1. NO soul degen at all - 128 xp

    2. Soul degen at the start, killed the mob in less than 30 sec so it still had the lowered max HP - 102 xp

    3. Soul degen at the start, but waited until after 30 sec to kill the mob, so it had it's original max HP - 102 xp

    4. Took mob down to about 20% HP then did Soul degen. Therefore, killed boss when it had lowered max HP, but I had still done the full HP worth of damage - 128 xp

    This supports JanusZeal's contention (and the Archer research, which I read) that sage soul degen does nerf xp if used at the start. Even if you kill the mob/boss within 30 seconds. This is because it is the damage dealt that determines XP, not the max HP, as he stated. Notice that 102 is 20% less than 128, exactly what we would expect in a nerf if one only does damage to 80% of the mobs normal HP. This experiment should be easily repeatable for any other veno that wants to try and confirm, and it only took about 5-10 min.

    Yet, Gwen and others contend that they've done FC runs with and without sage soul degen and seen no difference? I can think of four reasons why.

    1. All mobs in FC do not suffer the xp nerf from SD, STA, deicides

    2. Only the bosses in FC do not suffer the xp nerf - and perhaps Gwen was focusing on looking at the xp given from the bosses only.

    3. Even though sage soul degen was not used, perhaps the archer still used STA or someone had deicides, and so the xp was still nerfed close enough to sage soul degen that it was thought to be the same.

    4. There was a mistake made in calculations or method that led to the conclusion that xp was the same, even if it was not. It's a lot harder to control for variables in a whole FC run with multiple people, than it is to just test the mechanics on the same mob.

    Anyway, if I have time later this week maybe I'll test a mob and boss in FC and see if #1 or 2# are the answer.
  • Solandri - Heavens TearSolandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    But as soon as we got there she used amp instead of soul degen, i stated that using soul degen was used on Fragrance instead of Amp and according to her it wasn't so and Amp was FTW.
    Who needs soul degen with this kind of DD? was her responce...

    i just kinda went.. Okay~... and didn't bother with it cause this squad was all about speed, high dd and getting it done as quick as possible. I'm not flaming these people or saying their wrong for doing so just saying that that's not what i'm used to or how i run FCC with people i usually run to and prefer. ^^
    The effectiveness of Sage Soul Degen scales with mob hp and regen rate.
    The effectiveness of Amp scales with party DPS.

    So the other veno could very well have been right that Amp was better. Given mob hp H, regen rate R (hp/sec), and party damage rate D (hp/sec), kill time t becomes:

    Base case, time to kill:
    H + Rt = Dt
    t = H / (D-R)

    Sage Soul Degen case (stopping regen for 30 sec out of 31.5 sec):
    t = .8*H / (D - .0476R)

    Sage Amp case (30% for 20 sec over 31.5 sec = 19.05% effective amp):
    t = .8*H / (1.1905D - R)

    setting the last two equal to each other (same kill time), you get as the threshold case:
    D - 0.0476R = 1.1905D - R
    .9524 R = .1905 D
    R = 0.2000 D

    So if the mob's regen rate exceeds 20% of your party's DPS, then you are better off using Sage Soul Degen. If your DPS is more than 4x the mob's regen rate, you are better off with Amp. Measuring your party's DPS and the mob's regen rate is left as an exercise for the reader. b:chuckle (Looking over the calcs, it works out to 20% because the extra 1.5 sec channel times cancel out, leaving just the 20 sec of 30% Amp out of 30 sec = 20% effective Amp.)
    I dont think spending around 20 to 25M ( depending on your server i suppose ) on soul degen is worth it in the end for people who do not have it.
    [...]
    Why invest in a skill that's probably going to the "yeah it's nice for such and such occasions, BUT hardly ever occur cause the majority of people dont do it that way anymore" corner
    versus a skill that in nearly ANY case is handy and appreciated, doesn't nerf exp or raises the aggitation of people thinking it nerfs exp...
    For a non-regen boss (i.e. negligible regen, which is most of them), the kill time simplifies to:

    t = H / D

    Here are the figures for different cases:

    0) No Soul Degen, no Amp
    t0 = H / D = 100% t0
    Use t0 as our baseline kill time.

    1) Level 10 Amp (20% Amp for 20 sec out of 31.5 sec)
    t1 = H / 1.127D = 88.7% t0

    2) Sage Amp (30% Amp for 20 sec out of 31.5 sec)
    t2 = H / 1.1905D = 84.0% t0

    3) Sage Soul Degen only (no amp)
    t3 = .8H / D = 80% t0

    4) Sage Soul Degen + level 10 Amp
    t4 = .8H / 1.127D = 71.0% t0

    5) Sage Soul Degen + Sage Amp
    t5 = .8H / 1.1905D = 67.2% t0

    Bottom line is, against bosses, Sage Soul Degen is a better skill than Amp. If you're going to give up Sage Soul Degen because you think it's ineffective, you might as well stop Amping in your fights. Because Sage Soul Degen cast once at the beginning of the fight by a lazy veno is more effective than a conscientious veno keeping Sage Amp applied throughout the entire fight. The only time Sage Amp is better is if you can kill the mob before the Amp expires.

    In terms of incremental improvement, if you're deciding whether to buy Sage Amp or Sage Soul Degen, the two cases to compare are (2) vs (1) compared to (4) vs (1). Since t1 = 88.7%:

    Upgrading to Sage Amp reduces your kill time to 84% / 88.7% = 94.7% of t1.
    Upgrading to Sage Soul Degen reduces your kill time to 71% / 88.7% = 80% of t1.

    You get a much bigger improvement from getting Sage Soul Degen instead of Sage Amp.

    The exception is if you regularly group with an archer. Level 10 sharpened tooth arrow (there are hardly any Sage archers) does a 16% hp debuff. Not quite as good as Sage Soul Degen, but pretty close. With an archer using L10 STA, the relative improvements are:

    ta = 0.84 H / D = 84% t0

    Switching to Sage Soul Degen yields 95.2% ta, which is a slightly smaller improvement than the 94.7% for going from L10 Amp to Sage Amp.
  • Gwendolynne - Heavens TearGwendolynne - Heavens Tear Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The effectiveness of Sage Soul Degen scales with mob hp and regen rate.
    The effectiveness of Amp scales with party DPS.

    So the other veno could very well have been right that Amp was better. Given mob hp H, regen rate R (hp/sec), and party damage rate D (hp/sec), kill time t becomes:

    Base case, time to kill:
    H + Rt = Dt
    t = H / (D-R)

    Sage Soul Degen case (stopping regen for 30 sec out of 31.5 sec):
    t = .8*H / (D - .0476R)

    Sage Amp case (30% for 20 sec over 31.5 sec = 19.05% effective amp):
    t = .8*H / (1.1905D - R)

    setting the last two equal to each other (same kill time), you get as the threshold case:
    D - 0.0476R = 1.1905D - R
    .9524 R = .1905 D
    R = 0.2000 D

    So if the mob's regen rate exceeds 20% of your party's DPS, then you are better off using Sage Soul Degen. If your DPS is more than 4x the mob's regen rate, you are better off with Amp. Measuring your party's DPS and the mob's regen rate is left as an exercise for the reader. b:chuckle (Looking over the calcs, it works out to 20% because the extra 1.5 sec channel times cancel out, leaving just the 20 sec of 30% Amp out of 30 sec = 20% effective Amp.)


    For a non-regen boss (i.e. negligible regen, which is most of them), the kill time simplifies to:

    t = H / D

    Here are the figures for different cases:

    0) No Soul Degen, no Amp
    t0 = H / D = 100% t0
    Use t0 as our baseline kill time.

    1) Level 10 Amp (20% Amp for 20 sec out of 31.5 sec)
    t1 = H / 1.127D = 88.7% t0

    2) Sage Amp (30% Amp for 20 sec out of 31.5 sec)
    t2 = H / 1.1905D = 84.0% t0

    3) Sage Soul Degen only (no amp)
    t3 = .8H / D = 80% t0

    4) Sage Soul Degen + level 10 Amp
    t4 = .8H / 1.127D = 71.0% t0

    5) Sage Soul Degen + Sage Amp
    t5 = .8H / 1.1905D = 67.2% t0

    Bottom line is, against bosses, Sage Soul Degen is a better skill than Amp. If you're going to give up Sage Soul Degen because you think it's ineffective, you might as well stop Amping in your fights. Because Sage Soul Degen cast once at the beginning of the fight by a lazy veno is more effective than a conscientious veno keeping Sage Amp applied throughout the entire fight. The only time Sage Amp is better is if you can kill the mob before the Amp expires.

    In terms of incremental improvement, if you're deciding whether to buy Sage Amp or Sage Soul Degen, the two cases to compare are (2) vs (1) compared to (4) vs (1). Since t1 = 88.7%:

    Upgrading to Sage Amp reduces your kill time to 84% / 88.7% = 94.7% of t1.
    Upgrading to Sage Soul Degen reduces your kill time to 71% / 88.7% = 80% of t1.

    You get a much bigger improvement from getting Sage Soul Degen instead of Sage Amp.

    The exception is if you regularly group with an archer. Level 10 sharpened tooth arrow (there are hardly any Sage archers) does a 16% hp debuff. Not quite as good as Sage Soul Degen, but pretty close. With an archer using L10 STA, the relative improvements are:

    ta = 0.84 H / D = 84% t0

    Switching to Sage Soul Degen yields 95.2% ta, which is a slightly smaller improvement than the 94.7% for going from L10 Amp to Sage Amp.

    I like using both, using Degen when Amp isin cool down to keep the boss debuffed constantly. But very good Findings!

    @Tyramera: I think it is slightly different in FC, Mostly because there are a lot of common mechanics that don't make sense in FC. Mobs HP is relative to XP gained in the outside world. But in FC The Metal Ladies and the heads give insane amount of EXP with very low defenses and HP.

    However I will run my test again and make sure. That way we can all come to a common consensus about how it works. IMO, FC is just a really strange instance that breaks the rules of convention within the game as it is designed for leveling.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Character Roster:
    Gwendolynne : 101/SageVeno - Xyleena : 102/DemonCleric
    Delecroix : 101/DemonSin - Anatoxin : 9x/SagePsy
    Raevynne : 100/DemonBM - GotMeTwisted : 8x/SageSeeker
    Deicidea : 8x/Mystic - Diva : 95/SageBM/Retired
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Dude, there was already a consensus when these tests were done long ago by archers. You're way late to the party and all the beer is gone. You're just now learning about what some of us knew long ago. Sage SD nerfs XP everywhere -- OHT, Moonshade, TT, FF, BH.. anywhere that gives normal mob kill XP and you can place the max HP debuff on the mob, it nerfs XP.

    Additionally, XP factors in FF, which people overlook in cases like this, are relative to mob levels and player levels in the squad. If you go with Group A, Soul Degen a boss, report with the XP you got, in all likelihood (an extremely high one) when you go with Group B your XP will be different because the squad will have changed. One can test it when they understand how to use control methods appropriately to prevent such outside influences from ruining a test.

    Given your penchant for mindless assertions and even, with experience being in a squad with you, ragequitting over stupid stuff and being a drama queen (oh, and yes, HA pataka veno, before I forget), you're not a reliable source whatsoever.
  • Gwendolynne - Heavens TearGwendolynne - Heavens Tear Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    You are simply rude and you don't read. I said it was back to back wit hte SAME squad. Not different, and we were all eh same level.

    Why don't you take a chill pill and relax. I don't remember squadding with you ever, but I could have. So maybe I was having a bad day or maybe I was PMSing, hell maybe I was just being a whiny bish. Everyone has their days. Who knows all are possible, but that doesn't discredit me what-so-ever.

    And there is obviously not a consensus since people are still debating it, and there are findings to support both sides.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Character Roster:
    Gwendolynne : 101/SageVeno - Xyleena : 102/DemonCleric
    Delecroix : 101/DemonSin - Anatoxin : 9x/SagePsy
    Raevynne : 100/DemonBM - GotMeTwisted : 8x/SageSeeker
    Deicidea : 8x/Mystic - Diva : 95/SageBM/Retired
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    You are simply rude and you don't read. I said it was back to back wit hte SAME squad. Not different, and we were all eh same level.

    Why don't you take a chill pill and relax. I don't remember squadding with you ever, but I could have. So maybe I was having a bad day or maybe I was PMSing, hell maybe I was just being a whiny bish. Everyone has their days. Who knows all are possible, but that doesn't discredit me what-so-ever.

    And there is obviously not a consensus since people are still debating it, and there are findings to support both sides.
    Please don't act like you're sincerely trying to test things out -- you already made your decision based on 2 FF runs, and cautioned people, of all things, for those who would throw a fit because they don't want their XP purposely nerfed on bosses (which give great amounts of XP, emphasis on later levels when non [?] mobs give less and less) in an XP instance:
    I'm sorry I hjust have to correct you here. I have tested Sage Soul Degen in Frost on all bosses. Same Squad two runs with with Soul Degen and one Without. Gained the exact same EXP on the bosses and I wasn't using hypers. Besides, once you get to the 95+ area lots of them Archers and BMs and Barbs use Decides which Proc an HP reduction that goes off enough to have the debuff activated anyway.

    @OP: However, use at the parties discretion. Some people will throw a fit and it causes way less irritation to just not use it if they don't want you to.

    Just know that Sage Soul Degen is Amazing in TTs, BHs, FBs, etc. It especially helps with soloing and combined with your other Sage Skills you are pumping out a lot of debuffs and crippling damage. So Its worth the energy and money to get it. My Myriad and Degen have more then paid for themselves.

    Sorry, especially for any others here who actually genuinely don't know and are trying to test things out (thank you Tyramera for your contributions) -- nothing at all wrong with confirming what is already known, especially with the possibility that PWI change things without telling people or inadvertently bug it with an update, the latter of which I'm sure we're all too familiar with. Can't stand the snobbery of certain fail players (Gwen's failure extends beyond veno, and it's embarrassing that I even recognize one of her alts) who don't even know how to play their class or what their skills do and want to passive-aggressively be snobbish here toward people who do know, case in point with the response to my initial post starting off with my wife's luck. That'll be it for me in this topic barring new developments on the actual Sage SD skill itself.

    I will point out one way to test this out for one of the bright venos. When the barb or whoever is luring dragoons (that follow the nix boss) in FF, while the luring is taking place, probably on the first three in case you pull that group instead of just one, use Sage SD, before anyone can even hit, then just follow the puller to wherever their destination was. Keep that one dragoon targeted so you can see how much XP it gives relative to the other dragoons. Make note beforehand of the player levels in squad [and nearby] so in case someone levels that doesn't lower the XP by alternative means and ruin the test, as so many exterior factors can do -- FF itself is hard to do controlled tests on.
  • AnimaBlanc - SanctuaryAnimaBlanc - Sanctuary Posts: 555 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    @ Solandri

    Ty for the elaborate explaination. even though i am completely nubcake and retardeeed where it comes to numbers, equations and formulas, this made -overall- sense.

    But might i reiterate that i also stated that my reluctant responce to her was due to the fact i am not a "quick squad" kind of person that runs through these instances JUST for the sake of quick exp fixes and lvling ? I might have been a bit vaque about that, i dont know.
    regardless, the information is a good add-on in this discussion.

    for me personally it's the overall expierence of running said instance, may it be lunar/FCC/a dungueon or TT and not just because it's such a good exp haul or good mat drops.
    That's my personal preference and that's different for everyone, cause like i said as well i dont flame these quick squad kind of people it's just not my "thing" and doesn't really go well with my playing style.

    My comment was more directed at the people that can relate to this view and arent charmed by the high DPS squadding.
    Sure, this might be an insentive for people to tell me now: " then dont go random squadding anymore" ( cause i've had those responces as well )
    and it makes me go, where's the fun in that ?
    you meet new people due to random squadding, expand your Friendlist etc etc...

    Anyway... i'm drifting off topic.

    New point i'm making is... depending on your playstyle/squadding preference is it depends whether or not it's a good investment ( cause face it these skills arent cheap )

    OP's question was initially about myriad rainbow, that question was long since answered, i assume.
    next question was whether or not SAGE soul degen nerfs exp or not.
    Oppinions and findings differ ALOT in this case, where i merely tried to point out from my personal opinion that such a skill is or it not profitable, worth the trouble of people QQing on exp nerf is dependable on what you prefer to play with and where.

    I gave said example to emphesize the fact for ME, and maybe other veno's as well, i'm in doubt on its effectiveness and hunger for my wallet is worth it if such a skill will only be used in a rare occasion i am random squadding.
    and where that's concerned... i dont really plan on using such a skill if i'm going to get flamed for nerfing people's exp. whether or not this nerf is true
    All you need is something to believe in. -Solar_one. <-- <3 mah snoockums, mah hubby, mah eberyfing. :3

    Lag; You think yours is bad ? It took Jesus 3 days to Respawn !
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Current games aren't -games- anymore, just light shows operated by win buttons, lol."
    "ah sh*t, were gonna die!.... but it's still cool!" -INTMDATOR
  • Raequel - DreamweaverRaequel - Dreamweaver Posts: 133 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Myriad Rainbow does do a lot of potential damage, yet it's not enough to pull agro from tanks or pets.

    Sage soul degeneration takes out 20% max HP of whatever you hit with it (except a select few bosses like the Nirvana ones). I find since getting sage soul degen, my TT times have been literally cut in half. Most of my TT profits went to getting my hubby's APS on his BM, and now we can run a full 2-2 squad mode in 45mins easy ( and that's taking our time ) b:cute
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Raequel (103 Sage Veno) / Egwaine (101 Demon Cleric)
    Daniiella (101 Sage Sin) / Else (100 Demon Archer)
    Tiae (bm) / Athanasyos (barb) / Zeylene (wiz) / Eleysha (mystic)
  • Heavenberry - DreamweaverHeavenberry - Dreamweaver Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The effectiveness of Sage Soul Degen scales with mob hp and regen rate.
    The effectiveness of Amp scales with party DPS.

    So the other veno could very well have been right that Amp was better. Given mob hp H, regen rate R (hp/sec), and party damage rate D (hp/sec), kill time t becomes:

    Base case, time to kill:
    H + Rt = Dt
    t = H / (D-R)

    Sage Soul Degen case (stopping regen for 30 sec out of 31.5 sec):
    t = .8*H / (D - .0476R)

    Sage Amp case (30% for 20 sec over 31.5 sec = 19.05% effective amp):
    t = .8*H / (1.1905D - R)

    setting the last two equal to each other (same kill time), you get as the threshold case:
    D - 0.0476R = 1.1905D - R
    .9524 R = .1905 D
    R = 0.2000 D

    So if the mob's regen rate exceeds 20% of your party's DPS, then you are better off using Sage Soul Degen. If your DPS is more than 4x the mob's regen rate, you are better off with Amp. Measuring your party's DPS and the mob's regen rate is left as an exercise for the reader. b:chuckle (Looking over the calcs, it works out to 20% because the extra 1.5 sec channel times cancel out, leaving just the 20 sec of 30% Amp out of 30 sec = 20% effective Amp.)


    For a non-regen boss (i.e. negligible regen, which is most of them), the kill time simplifies to:

    t = H / D

    Here are the figures for different cases:

    0) No Soul Degen, no Amp
    t0 = H / D = 100% t0
    Use t0 as our baseline kill time.

    1) Level 10 Amp (20% Amp for 20 sec out of 31.5 sec)
    t1 = H / 1.127D = 88.7% t0

    2) Sage Amp (30% Amp for 20 sec out of 31.5 sec)
    t2 = H / 1.1905D = 84.0% t0

    3) Sage Soul Degen only (no amp)
    t3 = .8H / D = 80% t0

    4) Sage Soul Degen + level 10 Amp
    t4 = .8H / 1.127D = 71.0% t0

    5) Sage Soul Degen + Sage Amp
    t5 = .8H / 1.1905D = 67.2% t0

    Bottom line is, against bosses, Sage Soul Degen is a better skill than Amp. If you're going to give up Sage Soul Degen because you think it's ineffective, you might as well stop Amping in your fights. Because Sage Soul Degen cast once at the beginning of the fight by a lazy veno is more effective than a conscientious veno keeping Sage Amp applied throughout the entire fight. The only time Sage Amp is better is if you can kill the mob before the Amp expires.

    In terms of incremental improvement, if you're deciding whether to buy Sage Amp or Sage Soul Degen, the two cases to compare are (2) vs (1) compared to (4) vs (1). Since t1 = 88.7%:

    Upgrading to Sage Amp reduces your kill time to 84% / 88.7% = 94.7% of t1.
    Upgrading to Sage Soul Degen reduces your kill time to 71% / 88.7% = 80% of t1.

    You get a much bigger improvement from getting Sage Soul Degen instead of Sage Amp.

    The exception is if you regularly group with an archer. Level 10 sharpened tooth arrow (there are hardly any Sage archers) does a 16% hp debuff. Not quite as good as Sage Soul Degen, but pretty close. With an archer using L10 STA, the relative improvements are:

    ta = 0.84 H / D = 84% t0

    Switching to Sage Soul Degen yields 95.2% ta, which is a slightly smaller improvement than the 94.7% for going from L10 Amp to Sage Amp.

    Let's not forget that the duration of Soul Degeneration is 30 seconds. The duration of Amplify is 20 seconds (for LVL 10/11SAGE and +5 seconds for DEMON). With the cooldown of both skills being 30 seconds, you can just (in the perfect case) hold SAGE Soul Degeneration up all the time, so the monster's HP regeneration is in theory 0. Where you have 10 seconds non Amplified monster and 5 seconds non amplified in the purrfect case for the Amplify.*

    *That all not counting the channeling and casting of the skills. So it's about +/- 3 seconds.
    Achievment unlocked: Lagg
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I know why you cry, but it is something I can never do.
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    @ Solandri

    Ty for the elaborate explaination. even though i am completely nubcake and retardeeed where it comes to numbers, equations and formulas, this made -overall- sense.
    Personally, no offense to Solandri, but I find the numbers somewhat overrated and often times skewed based on perception. At very least the issue of Sage Soul Degen has no debate on what it does. As for which is better during the course of a FF run on bosses, that was already described but really just use whatever you're most comfortable using. I only ever used Soul Degeneration on Fragrance and Nix because they both steal HP and regenerate at a higher rate.
    Oppinions and findings differ ALOT in this case, where i merely tried to point out from my personal opinion that such a skill is or it not profitable, worth the trouble of people QQing on exp nerf is dependable on what you prefer to play with and where.

    I gave said example to emphesize the fact for ME, and maybe other veno's as well, i'm in doubt on its effectiveness and hunger for my wallet is worth it if such a skill will only be used in a rare occasion i am random squadding.
    and where that's concerned... i dont really plan on using such a skill if i'm going to get flamed for nerfing people's exp. whether or not this nerf is true
    The only time you would get "flamed" for nerfing XP is in FF. It's useful on everything else, and 8 levels after you get it, doing BH's, it's useful for basically every instance you'll go to -- 3-3 (even the regular mobs who have tons of HP), Abaddon, SOT, WS, RB (bosses). And hell, every single TT boss it's useful for. I second Raequel's post about it's usefulness in TT, and while you may not like faster runs, clerics and barbs may not feel the same way when they have pot or high repair cost. Not that it justifies nerfing your own XP in FF with Sage Soul Degen (I don't think this is a smart thing doing either a fast or slow run) but it's way more useful and way more often than you indicate. It's fine if you personally don't think it's worth it or don't wanna fork over the possible 15-20m it will cost -- what you find worth it is up to you -- but the skill itself is profitable by default because it saves time. On Arma, that's 2m HP taken off right off the bat, and that guy is way more difficult with the new 3-3. How do you overrate this? And why would you want to deal with 2m more HP to kill off when it can easily mean squad-wipe?

    I don't see what debate there is anymore about whether or not Sage SD nerfing XP is true. Maybe Gwen's still out "testing it" =D (or maybe left the topic because she can't come back saying she was wrong -- not surprising), but those of us who know how STA/Sage SD works knows it's an XP nerf no matter the dungeon -- wherever you can use it, and it places the max HP debuff on the mob (i.e. not COA or Nirvana for example), it nerfs XP. The only time that matters is in an XP instance. FF is the big XP instance. RB used to be the biggest one, near endgame, and that was purely quest based XP, which STA/Sage SD can't nerf, but once hypers came out, everything went to FF, which is, besides the heads quest for bonus XP after Oceania, purely mob kill XP.
  • Alphae - Lost CityAlphae - Lost City Posts: 1,512 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    It is entirely possible that Sharptooth and Sage SD works differently in Frost because in there, mobs have set EXP and Spirit values (out of proportion to their HP and defense).

    That being said, I would be highly annoyed if either of these skills were used in Frost. The amount of time it saves is so negligible with the boss HP being so embarrassingly low that it's not worth even the -chance- of -possible- experience loss in an EXPERIENCE instance.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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