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Cleric + Bramble = ???

krystalsaberkrystalsaber Posts: 0 Arc User
edited November 2010 in Cleric
So don't kill me clerics...I love you all! b:cute I'm just curious because it's REALLY, REALLY bugging me! b:cry

So I was super happy when I first got bramble 'cause hey there's a buff I can use on my buddies right? And I randomly buffed people I ran into, until a high level cleric in my faction told me that brambling a cleric is about the worst thing I could have done because it lowers their already low defense (gotta love those squishies though).

Do anyone (you) know why? Because the skill descript on bramble only says that it "Returns __ % of melee damage to attackers. Lasts 10 minutes." Doesn't mention anything about affecting defense, whether increasing (a big myth-a duh read the skill description) or decreasing it (?another myth? not in the description?)

Is it because of some cleric buff? (veno's my main and I've never played cleric) But if it was one of those, wouldn't the same apply to ALL other class characters after they recieve the cleric buffs?

If it's not some cleric buff then is it something unique about the clerics themselves? But if it has to do with their gear...well aren't other character's squishy? I'm a LA veno but a lot are arcane so they're pretty squishy too...

I don't understand! HELP ME! b:cry
Post edited by krystalsaber on
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Comments

  • Dyskrasia - Heavens TearDyskrasia - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,161 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    I think the mindset is that if someone gets aggro and they aren't supposed to have it, bramble will make it harder for the tank (or whoever wants it) to get it back. I don't think that's true. If the person isn't an idiot and stops attacking once they get aggro, the bramble really won't make a difference if the tank doesn't suck. But whatever, if people are going to cry about it then only bramble the heavies and whoever else asks for it.
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  • Disarmonia_X - Heavens TearDisarmonia_X - Heavens Tear Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Let me put it this way...
    The main way tank's hold agro is from their active skills (flesh-ream, or roar) The bramble damage reflecting is also a passive agro skill.
    Herc's hold agro mostly from the bramble damage. Along with the use of 1 Agro skill. (Bash/Roar/Fleshream/Pounce)

    Most lower level cleric's don't have the survivability yet to keep their selves alive with even 1 melee mob in a instance. So, making something stick around for longer = bad. Esp if that cleric slips, and miss-heals and gets heal-agro. ESPECIALLY-SO in groups were the tank' or other people pay no mind to the cleric's situation.

    However, Bramble on a cleric should pass on a few occasion's.
    1) When in TT, before doing General Feng, in TT2-X. His physical AoE reflects damage back to him, which can help speed up the boss. The bramble will wear off before the squad get's to Wurlord typically. So, honestly: the cleric then, should just be glad the veno knew when to bramble, and not complain.

    2) When they are just grinding mobs. Hell, it's added damage when they get hit by melee mobs. More damage - always good.

    3) In T.W. It's funny running around with a holahoop. Not to mention,a ny damage delt back to BM's/Barb's/Assassins - is always a good thing, means they can be that much close to dying when hit by a high-DD.


    Other than those situations, don't do it unless otherwise requested.

    Answer's to other questions in your post:
    Doesn't mention anything about affecting defense, whether increasing (a big myth-a duh read the skill description) or decreasing it (?another myth? not in the description?)
    It doesn't increase/decrease defense or anything, it just make's unwanted things linger a little longer. Which is why it's great on Tanker's for Bosses.
    Is it because of some cleric buff? (veno's my main and I've never played cleric) But if it was one of those, wouldn't the same apply to ALL other class characters after they recieve the cleric buffs?
    It isn't the cleric's buff's either. They don't draw-agro, they are passive, and don't reflect damage back.
    A Psychic's "Soul of Vengeance" skill does the same as bramble, and will cause build-up hate from mobs due to the damage reflecting.
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  • krystalsaberkrystalsaber Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Thank you! This is SUPER helpful/understandable. b:victory
  • Disarmonia_X - Heavens TearDisarmonia_X - Heavens Tear Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    NP, anytime.
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  • SerenityMare - DreamweaverSerenityMare - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,211 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    I also have a question...


    Well, if it's mostly because it helps hold aggro for the barb along with his aggroing skills, why is it frowned upon to bramble Magic users and not other melee classes as well? You know, since the barb, is the one who needs to have aggro but still a melee who is brambled could get aggro, isn't it kind of the same situation?
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  • LadyofReal - Heavens TearLadyofReal - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,993 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    I think it really just depends on the individual, the people that they're with, and the level that everyone involved is.

    For example, in Nirvana, we ask that the veno cast bramble on everyone in the squad, even the cleric. The mindset behind this is the fact that you're going to get hit anyway because of random agro, so why not do some damage back to it; the same thing goes for TT.
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  • Rawthorne - Heavens TearRawthorne - Heavens Tear Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Basically aggro/bramble works like this. Brambling barbs while tanking bosses helps them keep aggro on hard hitting tt bosses but barely help on fb bosses cuz they have a much higher reflect damage the harder they are hit. The more damage a barb does along w/ their aggro skills allows them to keep aggro. Any physical aoe inside tt's will be reflected so bramble everyone. I still get venos questioning me when I say "bramble everyone", "bramble me," etc. 95% of the time they end up brambling everyone but me or ask me "are you SURE you want brambled"? Any reflect hit I can do = the faster something dies. Plus if I go all out and pulled aggro in the first place, I better be able to handle itb:laugh
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  • Disarmonia_X - Heavens TearDisarmonia_X - Heavens Tear Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Because the other melee classes can survive the hits, that's fine. a BM in squad = a meat-shield. Rather him take agro, than the Healer's/Mage's because they can't survive the hits.
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  • NinnaXXX - SanctuaryNinnaXXX - Sanctuary Posts: 430 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    im not sure what lvl you are but if a higher lvl cleric would join your bh/fb you can be sure to bramble them they steal agro anyways =)
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  • Disarmonia_X - Heavens TearDisarmonia_X - Heavens Tear Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    im not sure what lvl you are but if a higher lvl cleric would join your bh/fb you can be sure to bramble them they steal agro anyways =)

    I can survive, But, I'm talking lower levels.
    People < 90.

    Like you shouldn't bramble 7x cleric's and wizzies.
    Cause, most of them are squishy a hell.

    I've seen people cuss veno's out for brambling them.
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  • MystiMonk - SanctuaryMystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • Sarieanna - Raging TideSarieanna - Raging Tide Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Just Follow:

    1. If they ask for it, go for it.
    2. If they are high level, ask first to make sure it's okay. If yes? Go for it. If no? obvi b:victory
    3. If you ask and they say no? Dont do it.

    Bramble is beneficial but I find that I aggro more easily.
    Hope this helps b:thanks
    I love my sister, Alex <3
    Even though, I taught her more then she taught me. b:cute
  • Keliska - Raging TideKeliska - Raging Tide Posts: 768 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    So don't kill me clerics...I love you all! b:cute I'm just curious because it's REALLY, REALLY bugging me! b:cry

    So I was super happy when I first got bramble 'cause hey there's a buff I can use on my buddies right? And I randomly buffed people I ran into, until a high level cleric in my faction told me that brambling a cleric is about the worst thing I could have done because it lowers their already low defense (gotta love those squishies though).

    Do anyone (you) know why? Because the skill descript on bramble only says that it "Returns __ % of melee damage to attackers. Lasts 10 minutes." Doesn't mention anything about affecting defense, whether increasing (a big myth-a duh read the skill description) or decreasing it (?another myth? not in the description?)

    Is it because of some cleric buff? (veno's my main and I've never played cleric) But if it was one of those, wouldn't the same apply to ALL other class characters after they recieve the cleric buffs?

    If it's not some cleric buff then is it something unique about the clerics themselves? But if it has to do with their gear...well aren't other character's squishy? I'm a LA veno but a lot are arcane so they're pretty squishy too...

    I don't understand! HELP ME! b:cry

    >.> Soloing mobs with bramble is somewhat useful. Good thing, it deals damage to your oppenent when they hurt you with Blessing on. Bad thing, since it is dealing damage to themselfs they will follow you until they stop killing themselve or you out run them (Clerics are the slowest class).

    It rather depends on if you can handle said mob before you die from bramble induced rage.
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  • MystiMonk - SanctuaryMystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Clerics are not the slowest class as Barbs( not in tigerform)Wizards and Psychics have the same walking speeds of 4.8 m/s.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • Keliska - Raging TideKeliska - Raging Tide Posts: 768 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Well don't see a lot of barbs outside tiger form. Wizzies can use distant shrink to escape.
    Psys ... personal experience have shown I don't need to outrun anything. Run from me or die.
    Cleric runs pretty slow hence the cover of a barb. (hmm I might just make a female cleric, works well if you have a barb friend :))
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  • MystiMonk - SanctuaryMystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    I wished the action Charge actually made us run faster but it does't do much.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • Mauntille - Heavens TearMauntille - Heavens Tear Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited October 2010

    For other clerics who might be curious, this was cross posted in the veno forums as well:

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=895682

    Our consensus was ask.

    Think link above was disputed as helpful, but not the end-all answer.
  • Nuallan - Raging TideNuallan - Raging Tide Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Clerics are not the slowest class as Barbs( not in tigerform)Wizards and Psychics have the same walking speeds of 4.8 m/s.

    Actually, Barb base move speed is 4.9 m/s (upright), but they make up for it w/tiger form.
    Move speed doesn't really make a big deal later on when you can get armor that adds to move speed (I have 5.2 m/s base atm, 5.5 if I bothered to get better gear) and when you have holy path/WoP/GL/ a bunch of other stuff.
  • Sarrafeline - SanctuarySarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    When I'm on my Veno, if there's a Barb in the squad, I bramble, regardless.

    If there is a BM in the squad, I ask if they want bramble.

    Same with sins, it's an offer.

    Never ever should casters have Bramble.

    Bramble doesn't return magic damage, only melee, and only NON RANGED physical Melee damage.

    It reflects damage, but it doesn't reduce it for the initial target.

    Bramble Guard is more or less the exact same skill as reflect for the Herc. A Herc without reflect cannot hold aggro as a tank nearly as well as with reflect.

    If you have a level 60 BM tanking, and a level 65 Cleric healing, and you bramble the cleric, and the cleric gets aggro, there are two scenarios. The cleric will die before the BM can get aggro back, or the BM and Cleric will kill the mob while it still has aggro on the cleric. Even if the cleric kites, there's no way in hell that aggro will be removed from that cleric, especially after a mob hits bramble more than once. Bramble builds aggro fast, and so does healing. (Now, I can think of an exception, and that is if the BM stuns the mob, it may build enough aggro fast enough for the BM to take aggro, or for the Cleric to get out of targeting range of the mob and reset the mob.)

    A REAL Barb should have no problem getting aggro back in tiger form.

    And you know... Before I restatted my Veno for light armor, and got a set of Light Armor, I didn't even use Bramble on myself. WTF would I? It was killing me in instances. Light Armor + Aura of Golden Bell + HP Buff + Cleric Buffs + Fox Form lvl 3 + Bramble = you can be a secondary tank in instances. n00b aggros 3 mobs, and the barb is a little low in levels? Hit Malefic Crush and tank 2 or 3 of them while the rest of the party deals with the rest (I actually was called suicidal in a BH because the cleric took aggro, and I AOEd everything going after the Cleric. XD My response? I'd rather die and save the cleric, instead of surviving and watching the cleric die, then having her go to town, then have to fly back, then rez the 3 other party members already dead... That one worked out well because I managed to AOE all 3 mobs anyway, and used Leech to keep myself from dieing while the Cleric healed herself. :P).

    My faction and I have all agreed that when we run FB, BH, TT, etc., if we have a lower level cleric, someone is on 'Cleric duty'. Sometimes it's 4 people on Cleric duty. :D We like to keep Clerics alive, and not waste their EXP while they are trying to heal a Barb or BM. Part of the reason for this is having to take a level 51 cleric into FB59... Yeah. We need clerics. :( Or doing a run for a Cleric, we tend to watch out for them even more than normal.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
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  • Sarieanna - Raging TideSarieanna - Raging Tide Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    Just ask and NEVER bramble clerics whose level is high then yours (unless they ask) b:cute
    I love my sister, Alex <3
    Even though, I taught her more then she taught me. b:cute
  • DrFeealGood - ArchosaurDrFeealGood - Archosaur Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited October 2010
    The tank should always maintain the aggro. The cleric can log out and log in and your bramble will be gone. Alternatively, they can stop attacking to get the aggro on someone else ( assuming their heals don't aggro and continue to aggro mobs).. Essentially , that cleric was big cry baby =). It's not really a big deal IMO..I've never had issues with it what so ever even when I was in an instance and a veno brambled me.. I walked out without a scratch.. Open and shut case..
    With that being said, I do confide in the better safe then sorry way of life. Bramble can be a MINOR hassle with clerics..So just save yourself the trouble. =)
  • Sarrafeline - SanctuarySarrafeline - Sanctuary Posts: 4,661 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    The tank should always maintain the aggro. The cleric can log out and log in and your bramble will be gone. Alternatively, they can stop attacking to get the aggro on someone else ( assuming their heals don't aggro and continue to aggro mobs).. Essentially , that cleric was big cry baby =). It's not really a big deal IMO..I've never had issues with it what so ever even when I was in an instance and a veno brambled me.. I walked out without a scratch.. Open and shut case..
    With that being said, I do confide in the better safe then sorry way of life. Bramble can be a MINOR hassle with clerics..So just save yourself the trouble. =)

    That's the problem... If you get a heal aggro, and you are brambled, and the mob melees you, even if you don't attack the mob, or heal, you are building aggro until someone else starts poking that mob. You have to heal yourself, stack IronHeart. There's more aggro. Start kiting. Tank comes over and slaps the mob, but you have more aggro than the tank can generate in one hit, and the mob is moving, following you, making it very difficult for a BM or Barb to hit twice rapidly (unless the BM stuns). If you turn so the tank has a second shot, the mob has a second shot too, and in BH or FB, this is how my cleric always dies, and bramble isn't even a factor in that example. Bramble just makes it so much worse.

    Bramble is only an issue if you get aggro, and nobody else is around to deal with it. Cleric is squishy. Bramble is an aggro building skill. Cleric does not need aggro. Therefore, do not use Bramble on a Cleric.
    101 Sage Sin*/Archer
    100 Demon BM*/Barb
    96 Demon Cleric/Sage Seeker
    95 Demon Wiz/
    94 Sage Veno
    85 Psy/80 Mystic
    And a handful of other alts, all 79 and under.
    *Pre RB level
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    When I was on my veno I would bramble clerics a lot, just to see the anal retentive ones whine up a storm - some would hilariously ragequit just to remove the buff cuz I wouldn't purge them. Too bad it doesn't stay on you like the psychic soul buff. Bramble doesn't "take" aggro as commonly ascribed to it, because it's returns are generally so low -- as in, it does very little return damage to things hitting melee that pose an escapable threat to a cleric, and those who do the most return damage via melee a cleric likely wouldn't survive anyways if they somehow have aggro, bramble or not. I remember doing so many Belial runs where people (by people I mean a few clerics) said not to bramble the cleric lest he get aggro. I loved watching the squad crawl up that cleric's *** for their silly paranoia.

    Clerics need to relax and not get so worked up over bramble. It's like a running gag.
  • Paramedic - DreamweaverParamedic - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,801 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    u dont bramble clerics not because of belial, but because of mobs.

    mob can build enough hate on cleric that it might take one or two hits more for DD to rescue poor squishy.

    and that assumption that 'cleric likely wouldn't survive anyways' is just b:beatup


    i would kick veno from squad if she 'troll' me with bramble in way u described
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  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    You mean the mobs that stand a far better chance aggroing from BB and not from bramble? The mobs that only one of them that would aggro to heals anyways would even hit melee to reflect damage w/bramble on? Uh, right..

    I would bramble you just to get booted and find a better cleric, or better yet, bramble then boot you instead, also for a better cleric. This nonsense fear stuff about bramble is way exaggerated.
  • Jellytoast - SanctuaryJellytoast - Sanctuary Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I like having bramble when I'm doing quest mobs, but not somewhere like FCC.
    Just because I can be accident prone, and mobs seem to love me when I have a green circle swirling around me.

    It's not really that big of a deal if a veno puts it on me though. >.<
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  • Paramedic - DreamweaverParamedic - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,801 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    You mean the mobs that stand a far better chance aggroing from BB and not from bramble? The mobs that only one of them that would aggro to heals anyways would even hit melee to reflect damage w/bramble on? Uh, right..

    I would bramble you just to get booted and find a better cleric, or better yet, bramble then boot you instead, also for a better cleric. This nonsense fear stuff about bramble is way exaggerated.

    i will explain it like for dummy:

    few mobs and heal aggro = little chaos in squad

    at least one of mobs reach cleric and hit him. normaly, any DD could steal aggro back by one hit, but since cleric reflect dmg it may take at least one hit more to do so.

    this -obviously- decrease cleric's chances to survive.
    BUILD EFFICIENCY CALCULATOR: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1129681

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    GAME IS DEAD wiki-article: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=938282
  • MystiMonk - SanctuaryMystiMonk - Sanctuary Posts: 4,286 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    ^I am glad some body understands what bramble does to Clerics.
    Looking for a decent casual understanding Faction.
  • JanusZeal - Heavens TearJanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    i will explain it like for dummy:

    few mobs and heal aggro = little chaos in squad

    at least one of mobs reach cleric and hit him. normaly, any DD could steal aggro back by one hit, but since cleric reflect dmg it may take at least one hit more to do so.

    this -obviously- decrease cleric's chances to survive.
    I will explain it like for someone with ESL and a lack of reading/game comprehension:

    There are three guards, two of them kite, one hits melee always. One of those three, one hits only magic, the other one of those three hits ranged with arrows, not counting the melee only guard. Even if both of those ranged mobs went near a cleric it's not to hit them melee. It's because they're likely kiting from someone who hit them and thus heals won't take aggro. Those two do not run up to people and hit them melee, so your know-nothing scenario falls on it's face as there is only one guard who matters surrounding melee damage. I would re-consider my squad if people could not get aggro on this single guard, and BB being up won't hurt a cleric that much. The bramble is, counter to your strange claim, to return damage on Belial when he random turns to cast phys magic, and for it to be on everyone. The only time it matters when to bramble is the barb, and only if you're with a low DD squad who wants to play it safe with the guards and not pull out all three together along with Belial's randoms which would occur if one brambles the barb -- that's obviously not the contention here so no point in furthering that aspect. Bramble is far more beneficial than it is risky, so no, it's not a decrease to a cleric's survivability. If anything, brambling a cleric has a risk of decreases their sensibility, which you've now been a good lab rat and proven.
  • Paramedic - DreamweaverParamedic - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,801 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    ok, since u have to go into details and keep that belial example..

    and when u solo-heal and u cant keep tank up just with BB and u have to IH? if mob spawn near you, im sure you wouldnt want to have bramble on you.

    also i believe, that belial beside random aggro have reset too. if he turn to you and start to aoe, it will be harder to take him from you (i saw many times archers or wizzies being hit even 3 times by aoe).


    your argument is valid only if there are 2 clerics or barb which will tank with charm.
    this isnt very popular method -at least on dw- since i never saw anyone doing 2-3 like that.

    if u rly want to argue about this still, i can agree that -just in this case -bramble dont seem so bad idea, tho i still wouldnt want to have it on my cler.
    things may go wrong, bb will be interupted and if AE aggro on me, brambled..


    general rule is to not bramble clers, i know why -and u know why. Some ppl may be too paranoid about it, so what? -.- there is really good reason to not use it.

    if guy dont want it - u dont bramble him, eot.

    unless u really like to troll your squads and justify your behavior by weak arguments
    BUILD EFFICIENCY CALCULATOR: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1129681

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    GAME IS DEAD wiki-article: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=938282
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