How to survive this game without a Herc

Silest - Sanctuary

I like that last paragraph.

Silvia_Xenth - Lost City

i myself do a few thing i for one if they start talking i pk them with my 91 barb or my 82 cleric wish would make them even more dumber cos instead of getting help they get pked or hated as i do always write name of idiots who **** me of.

see for me a veno is a class that is mostly for fun if i care for bh i go 2 the 2 main classes wish is most welcome and least played can only say its worth the time lving them
tho they are boring to play but me we all have our fun in our own way right

Myralis - Sanctuary

Mercinary - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You don't need it to survive, you still can fufil your NATURAL duty just fine. Its just you won't be able to go over that limit as easily without it. Anyone that expects a Veno now must have this 'equipment' or be fail is a moron themselves.

+1

Its not like a veno without herc is useless. You can still do a lot of things and to be honest.. I dont think being able to tank all stuff from the start on and relying on reflect will learn you much.

Ive met many great venos with herc and great venos who survived just fine without it.
Imo the point of a veno is to be support of your team, do your job, do it well, if you can tank stuff and lessen barbs repairs, well thats awesome. But spending 200$ just to be accepted as a full veno is plain nuts.

So many venos I met never passed the tank or anyone a spark, didnt go into fox form to amp or purge, ...
Learn your class and dont let people bash on you for not spending cash. If they arent even willing to give you a chance to show you can play veno just fine, well then they just dont deserve you. Let them stick to their stereotypes.


I have for long been a hercless veno myself, I know how people react and I know what they expect. The trick is just to show your friends and the people you hang out with that youre good. And you can bet on that run being way more enjoyable than with random people in most cases too.
My funniest experience was a bh79 when 3 herc venos died of stupidness and lazyness to react at stygean lol Ended up tanking him with my kowlin, wth b:shocked


So, you dont need a herc to be good Show them what you really are and dont let them make you sad.

tweakz

Myralis - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, you dont need a herc to be good Show them what you really are and dont let them make you sad.

You don't need a weapon or a pet either.

stkakasirsprout

well u see that veno's don't need a nix or herc if they have their pets as the same lvl as them i have a lvl 61 Walker and once my Walker stool aggro from a herc so i don't see the big deal with the herc so what that it has buffs lvl 5 tough can take a beating.and about the nix i don't see a use for it if it doesn't have Flesh Ream its fail for pvp on the ground cuz i have out ran a nix before but i have never seen someone out run a Kowlin and besides a veno is only good for pvp with a good pking pet and if u want the best class for pve use a veno

BordoRose - Sanctuary

Mercinary - Heavens Tear wrote: »

A Herc cannot replace a Barb ever. It can substitute a barb in certain cases such as a BM can, a well geared Sin or archer can, or even some heavily geared arcanes.

I would love to see a Herc tank Polearm when he's at his worst.

I would love to see a Herc pull mobs to BB in BH89 Eden or Brim and hold agro on all of them as the group zhens.

Veno's can solo many things thanks to a Herc but if you look at it in the way I view a Herc, a Herc is just like a Lunar Glade weapon/cape/Love up and Down.

Hehe i so like it.

With herc is cool when you can help your faction members with their 'kill boss' quests, or BHs, FB.. I know it cause I could tank few caves only with my 'free' pets. Great feeling when your lower friends thanks you for help. With herc would be easier, faster and could make more caves... but hey if you like helping you ll find way to help.

And about FFC or Rebrith? FCC I always ask barb if he wanna me unhercy in squard (barb = tank all cave of course) so if only barb say 'yes no problem' and he\she is determined (when rest squard don't wanna unhercy veno) it's ok. And here u re done with FCC. Just find strong (menatlly) barb. Rebrith.. who lose exp? Only veno ;P with hercy you can faster dig and get beans. It's only diference..

What is the best if you haven't got herc? Find good faction and make good friends. They will not withdraw you from squad only because you haven't got herc.

Desdi - Sanctuary

BordoRose - Sanctuary wrote: »

but hey if you like helping you ll find way to help.

That's correct b:victory
I always try to help my friends, faction members or even strangers. It's a great feeling and I don't need a herc for that. For sure there have been times that I couldn't do it while a herc'd veno would but I just gather a squad and do it.

It feels kinda impolite though when I offer to help them and they ask me if I have a herc. When I reply no they probably look down on me but in the end I finish the mission succesfully and everyone's happy b:chuckle

Myralis - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

You don't need a weapon or a pet either.

Pretty colours you got there. But the point.. not what I said. b:cute

BordoRose - Sanctuary wrote: »

What is the best if you haven't got herc? Find good faction and make good friends. They will not withdraw you from squad only because you haven't got herc.

Thats my point.

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

Mercinary - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You don't need it to survive, you still can fufil your NATURAL duty just fine. Its just you won't be able to go over that limit as easily without it. Anyone that expects a Veno now must have this 'equipment' or be fail is a moron themselves.

As a veno that got my herc in my late 70s/early 80s there are times I wish that a lvl requirement was required to own a herc/nix...so that venos would learn how to use their skills...and not rely on the herc (or nix for that matter) being the "do all end all."

It's truely a wonderful thing to learn how to be a veno without them. In my case I look at them as being my "lunar/nirvana/warsoul pets" ROFL They allow me to do stuff I couldn't do before but they don't replace my friends, team mates, and squad mates that make the game so much fun!!!!

tweakz

I have yet to see someone say what they learned by not having a Herc. I didn't have one til 74, and fail to see the advantage.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Well, things I'm FORGETTING due to mainly use a herc:

How to lure. Because, like, why bother? Send the herc in and kill the whole group at once.

How to keep a pet alive when the monsters would normally overload it (pulling it back periodically, taking aggro on yourself etc.) - because, really, how often does a herc get overwhelmed?

I'm sure there's more.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Let's get something clear, even Tweakz admits some pets (such as the Eldergoth Marksman or the Dark Wanderer) are not made obsolete by an herc. There are roles which a veno can fullfill and competently perform in without one. What herc does is grant you great capabilities you cannot otherwise obtain, but it's not a necessity for every veno to have one. Tanking bosses, however efficient and convenient it may be, is not a natural veno role and neither are any other of herc's many uses. A well leveled/skilled non legendary pet can perform as a capable DD in instances and tank multiple elites, no more is necessary for a veno to fulfill his/her role competently and efficiently.

LinneaSage - Raging Tide

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Tanking bosses, however efficient and convenient it may be, is a natural veno role and so are any other of the herc's many uses. A well leveled/skilled non legendary pet can perform as a capable DD in instances and tank multiple elites if it's a much higher level than the mobs.

Fixed b:chuckle.

Venos without a herc simply can't tank dungeon mobs with ease if they're at the same level. With my Walker caught up in levels, as a vit-mag hybrid veno, I'd be lucky if I could tank some of the mobs in the higher level dungeons alone--in fact, I died once trying to get back to my party in my FB51 because I couldn't handle a one-on-one fight with one of the runners. The thing pretty much twoshot my Glacial, which was at same-level. From what i've heard, this doesn't get better as you go up in levels.

As for bosses, it sort of is a traditional role of the veno, nowadays. Don't have a barb? No problem, herc can tank. At lower levels, Walkers can tank bosses, but once you get up to higher levels (starting around level 50, I believe), you can't tank them with a Walker anymore, unless you're insanely overleveled (and some, you can't tank even then).

Now, if you want to bring in a Varicose Scorp to a high level dungeon run as an extra DD, I'm sure some squads will take you...but many will just laugh b:surrender . Why take a veno as purely an extra DD, when you could bring a wiz/psy/sin, all of which are better at DDing? Venos without herc can't even lure some mobs, because our pets won't live long enough.

Not saying I agree with the herc trend--I don't have one yet myself, though I'm currently grinding like heck to get one--but you can't really compare non-legendaries to legendary. Yes, it is possible to get by without a herc, but you won't be able to fill any of the traditional veno roles once you get up to higher levels--thus many squads won't take a hercless veno. It's best not to sugarcoat that.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

I've had my Shodu Cub tank multiple mobs in TT runs my own level. It takes some spam healing although Tough helps get a couple of hits in. This should buy enough time for an average squad to regroup and help you. Ofc not all mobs can be handled this way but sometimes taking care of just one is sufficient. Pets are especially good with archers (which can take squishies out fast) and DoT mobs and i can usually handle 2-3 of those. But even the toughest kind can be taken on for a few precious seconds using Tough and Threaten.

Edit; Also pets make for great DD against (?) bosses because their damage is not reduced. Add a veno's debuffing skills to the mix and you've got some good arguments for taking a veno along in your run.

2nd Edit; As for 51 there are some mobs you can tank multiples of once you've gotten your lvl 53 heal (the schrunchkins or whatever the archers are called) which would technically still be mobs your own level. Doing BH runs i was able to handle Fushma at early 6x without much trouble (except for the extremely looong time it took my pet to make the kill) and by late 6x even Rankar.

tweakz

You're talking about roles, but maybe not aware that Barbs after 100 aren't the tanks they used to be. If they can't even hold aggro against me, how are they going to keep it off sins, and bms? We ALL become tanks at 100+! SnakeFist Guardian in Warsong Metal will allow range tanking, as well as all the mobs up to it. Most often I'm the primary tanker when plowing through the mobs there because they're all mag and wiz's with more dps are very rare.

We are no longer the best lurers either. Everyone can use Genies for luring, and Assassins' ability to lure blows our pet lures away! It's more practical for a tank to lure than risk a bad aggro transfer BUT I lure without hesitation to save them some coin.

Debuffs? I think Clerics, Barbs and BMs have better pdef debuffs don't they? Clerics also have a better mdef debuff.

The mistake I keep seeing in WC requests is calling for specific classes by people who are ignorant about other classes. They should be asking for roles like "lurer", "tank", "pureDD" vs Veno, Barb, etc. When I see someone call for an archer for something I >.> because most archers with less than a +5 weapon aren't out dps'ing me (knowing I could do the job better than most).

Some Barbs are discouraged now because any class can pull aggro from them repeatedly. That doesn't make them obsolete. Their buffs are awesome, and they can fix it when things go awry. I thought it was funny once when I was sure I had aggro but the mob wasn't hitting me. I realized the Barb was canceling the mag attack which was another awesome thing they can do. I remember someone saying how they Herc tanked Polearm while a Barb did the canceling on it's debuff!

So, we no longer have value as lurers or debuffers (Archer has -20% HP debuff, and BMs have HF). We do however hold a lot of value if we have a Herc. It is natural for people without to be in denial, but it is what it is and their effort could be rather put into obtaining one. I'm not trying to put people down for not having them, rather they should have a more positive approach to getting one.

How to lure. Because, like, why bother? Send the herc in and kill the whole group at once.

I still lure almost daily often multiple times. There's PBR, Stygean, Ofotis, etc that I still use pet lure on.

How to keep a pet alive when the monsters would normally overload it (pulling it back periodically, taking aggro on yourself etc.) - because, really, how often does a herc get overwhelmed?

Herc needed this approach when it could start tanking Phlebo, and possibly on other bosses later. Other than that, there is no use for the old ways so the point would be moot. I'll stick with the "not having a Herc til 74 didn't make me a better veno" story for now.

Light/ - Raging Tide4

Why is a Veno good for new players if a herc is necessary? I can't understand that.

tweakz

Light/ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Why is a Veno good for new players if a herc is necessary? I can't understand that.

It's not necessary, neither is 5aps for BMS, Sins, and Archers. Neither is HP for a Barb or Res for a Cleric. We have less expenses than most classes and an easier time getting things done. What other class has the advantage of having a tool that scales with them to the end of the game (there is no end)? Try being a BM and wanting to refine multiple weapons, or an archer that constantly has the coin leak called ammo, or a Barb with the repairs. It seems silly that people complain about the meager price of a Herc when it has yet to show signs of becoming obsolete and is yet incredibly useful.

Once a cleric rage quit after whining about a Veno with no pet in BH metal (me). It's funny because last time I did metal, the other veno stowed their Herc also after seeing it was less efficient to have it out. So if you can tank multiple mobs yourself there, you are as good w/o a Herc up to the boss.

Light/ - Raging Tide4

I'm a mage veno, does that make a difference?

MANray_ - Sanctuary

I'll readily admit not being familiar with the dynamics of high level squad work although many venos who are have argued for the class remaining useful without an herc. Personally i can't wait to get to levels at which other classes start taking on the debuffer role...

I would find it sad however to learn that a veno's only squad role in high level parties is to save repair bills for other toons by playing pet cleric. Because the bottom line is this is what an herc brings to the squad. It will never be the best tank because of it's limited aggro holding potential (as compared to other classes) and can be outclassed by other pets in every other department (DPS, luring, debuffing). Yes, it allows venos to solo a large part of the game which i've never found especially entertaining, and is not even as profitable as it once was.

Here's the thing, either the veno grows out of its niche role and can develop different ways of contributing to the squad or is it hopelessly stuck just healing golden boy. If the first choice is right then there's room for non herc'ed venos. And i want to make this clear, i choose not to have an herc. I just don't like the looks of it nor do i care to fit in a role that would make me quit the class. I'm saving for a Nix and hopefully one day i'll get some pet skills that will allow me to have what pets i chose to perform at a competent level, not on par with herc, but decent enough i'll get some squads.

The bottom line is wether it's absolutely necessary to have one to be able to enjoy playing a high level veno, and i've yet to see evidence that would contradict that. Yes, herc is better, that's not what the argument is about, but necessary?

xxxdsmer

herc is not reqired to be a good veno. period. end of story regardless of level or what you're doing.


herc is only 'required' by those that think its mandatory to be a pro veno, or that dont want to tank bosses theirselves.

get an armored bear n that should take care of most things, the things it dosent.. geta barb. barbs love venos that do their squad roles (lure mobs, feed 'em chi, bramble 'em, etc etc etc) but dont be a 'lazy veno' either lol.

and if you REALLY need a tough pet, get to the higher lvls n farm dragon temple till u get the rare skills like strong + protect n add those to the armored bear, it'll be dang near as tough as a herc, even have more mag resistance than a herc (with strong+protect at lv5 ofc).

so no, to all the haters out there.. herc is NOT required, its just nice to have.

tweakz

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

The bottom line is wether it's absolutely necessary to have one to be able to enjoy playing a high level veno, and i've yet to see evidence that would contradict that. Yes, herc is better, that's not what the argument is about, but necessary?

No, Res on Clerics - not necessary. Roar on Barbs - not necessary. HF on BMs -not necessary.

I'm sure Clerics don't like paying to level Res anymore than Venos like paying for Hercs.

Martiin - Archosaur

Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »

EDIT: Ofc a veno without a herc can be great too. Heck I've met veno's with hercs that was a blacklistneversquadwithagain and veno's without hercs that I will always love to squad with. The main thing is how do you play your class.

Yes because knowing your class allows a golem to tank ape boss or foshura boss in squad mode....there is NOTHING to know about your pet other then knowing how to spam heal.

You don't need skill, the most skill I can represent for a veno tanking was me tanking 3-3 emporer and my cleric with rb died so I had to call my herc back and forth so he would aoe herc for like 1k instead of smacking him for almost 3k.

So yea...no skill involved...you can either heal faster then the boss can deal damage or you cant.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Martiin - Archosaur wrote: »

So yea...no skill involved...you can either heal faster then the boss can deal damage or you cant.

I'm sorry, but that statement is just wrong.

There are a few ways to stretch out a pets survivability, the example you give of having your pet kite the boss can allow your pet to tank bosses many levels ahead of normal (and is good training for a couple of bosses in frost)

Then, of course, there's all the other stuff you should be doing whilst your pet is tanking. Heck, even knowing how much you need to heal - both per boss and during a boss (vipenalt, for example, hits harder as time goes on) is a skill.

Yes, on some bosses you can sit back and just heal. On a few, at the right level, that's ALL you an do. (But even THEN, why aren't you throwing myriad? It's an instant cast...)

So... yeah. Know how to play your class better than just holding down the heal key, please - you're giving the rest of us a bad name.

GuinevirX - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

No, Res on Clerics - not necessary. Roar on Barbs - not necessary. HF on BMs -not necessary.

I'm sure Clerics don't like paying to level Res anymore than Venos like paying for Hercs.

We don't like to pay our rez anymore because some noobs and b@st@rds don't deserve it anymore . And no herc is not necessary , if u can afford it i recommend u investing in one because ull find the game a bit easier. But if u want a challenge and be able to stand out from the other venos in a different way , learn ur class and become pro with any other pet. What matters is u have fun not the other carebears in a squad that will lay back and watch u

Desdi - Sanctuary

I agree with Vitenka....there's much more you can do with a Venomancer than sit there and spam heal on your pet. If we take things this way you don't really require any skill to play this game since all you have to do is click buttons with your mouse or press the equivalent key on the keyboard but if you really want to do more than that you can by combining skills and trying out things.

tweakz wrote: »

No, Res on Clerics - not necessary. Roar on Barbs - not necessary. HF on BMs -not necessary.

I'm sure Clerics don't like paying to level Res anymore than Venos like paying for Hercs.

What tweakz says is correct. Sage/Demon res is expensive like hell so why would Clerics spend so much for something that doesn't even benefit themselves. Though, if we think this way no skill is really necessary to play nor armour (on venomancers at least). I've even had a lvl70 venomancer with no armour at all solo my FB29 and did well (she had a weapon though). I don't know whether she had been **** or did it for fun but apparently venomancers don't need anything beside a pet, heal pet and a weapon or not even a weapon.

Also, I'd like to add one more thing. I believe we talk too much about endgame when half of the people will never get there for various reasons. Maybe their Venomancer is just an alt, maybe they don't have time, some of them even quit the game etc. etc.
I'm not aware of how useful or how needed is a Hercules by lvl 100 for those instances and bosses (which seems to be the only thing you have left to do in this game besides PK).
However, throughout the game you can do quests with any pet, you can BH with any pet since most of the time you'll find full squad and/or high levels to help, you can find help with your FBs easily with friends or higher levels who seek reputation and fun, you can do your daily quests since you just have to buy some shards (CS) and fly around (WQ), you can have fun AOE grinding with a good tank pet (Glacial Walker, Shaodu Cub, Crystalline Magmite etc.), lure effectively, do great DPS with the right pet, fulfill you role in squads as a lurer-DD-Debuffer-Chi giver. Yes, Hercules will make them easier/better (sometimes maybe too easy and boring) but you certainly don't need a Hercules throughout the game. So the correct thing to say would probably be (especially to newcomers):

Throughout the game a Venomancer doesn't have to own a Hercules. Everything can be done with an ordinary pet, except bosses at the level you get the quests (eg. FB bosses). You can still do your natural job in squads and even tank bosses and solo isntances with a good alternative tank pet at later levels. A Hercules will make things easier and you will be able to solo bosses earlier than a Venomancer without one (eg. lvl80 Herc'd Venomancer can tank all bosses in FB51, lvl80 Venomancer without a Hercules can tank only the first two bosses alone). You will be able to even solo bosses that might never be possible without one. However, no you don't NEED one to play this game. Once you reach the endgame it may become a need as instances and bosses become to hard to handle and you'll have/be asked to tank several bosses in order to save repairs, or a squad from being wiped (because barb has died) or other reasons.

XmasBunny_ - Archosaur

Lylfo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@xmasbunny Venoes are very good at rushing thru TTs. Maybe learn how to from other venos, you do not have to deal with every mobs in your way =D

i tried, i swear i tried to rush with my maxed (to where my lvl can allow me) summer sprint on, hp charm and fox form but i still got 1 shoted XD. i know i need holypath, i am still working on that (i'm noob about genies) and maybe some other good idea to make it through the mobs but i am still learning... ty for the incentive anyway^^

XmasBunny_ - Archosaur

xxxdsmer wrote: »

and if you REALLY need a tough pet, get to the higher lvls n farm dragon temple till u get the rare skills like strong + protect n add those to the armored bear, it'll be dang near as tough as a herc, even have more mag resistance than a herc (with strong+protect at lv5 ofc).

i can't seem to find info about this matter idk why i wanted to try having a Gundam like desiree XD (i wanna have an herc but i wanted to try this out too... i just wanna check all the possibilities, since i play for fun). i was only told this dungeon is for lvl80+ but can venos solo it with a common magmite or armored bear? if so, in which lvl range? i really wanted to pimp my tank pets for "free" (not having to pay like 5mil for each of these rare skills) so if some1 could tell me a bit more about this i would be really thanfull *.*

BTW... +1 to Desdi ^^

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Dragon Temple is underwater, and PVP enabled even on PVE servers. A well-leveled turtle or undine will be more use than a magmite or any other land pet.

Not only are there bosses guarding the chests, but you are in competition with other players who'd like to farm those rare skills as well... or just want to PK.

tweakz

Putting rare skills on an Armored Bear would be a hella stupid thing to do. Coin is easy to come by in this game even w/o vending. Sounds to me like just plain bad choices: not lack of gain.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

Putting rare skills on an Armored Bear would be a hella stupid thing to do. Coin is easy to come by in this game even w/o vending. Sounds to me like just plain bad choices: not lack of gain.

Dude, seriously, what is your problem? It's an easy thing to pass judgement as if you were a figure of authority or were somehow entitled to have a final say on most things on these forums. But you haven't adressed what arguments have been made against your point of view and continue hammering your cleric/res analogy as if it hadn't been sufficiently countered and proven wrong. You have yet to counter my argument about herc being a defficient tank when compared to classes that can handle the job, nor have yet given an example of a single scenario in which herc would make for a faster more efficient kill in squadwork. Other than the convenience of saving a player's repair bill (at the expense of everyone else's time) you have yet to present an advantage that would be so overwhelming as to make herc an absolute necessity.

As i've said before, it's not that your contributions or opinions are not valuable, but the contempt and disrespect that you show other posters are turning you into someone whose posts and responses is better to ignore. No one is claiming any other pet can substitute for what an herc can do, but many players are growing tired of this attitude that there is only one correct way to play the game. This is a game, and while competitive, it's really become stupid that some people are being excluded from participating because of a relatively unimportant advantage. Some players in certain classes, because of their role and rarity, have become used to getting away with whatever arbitrary demand they can enforce on others. Other than saving a measly 100-200k in repairs herc brings nothing to the table a balanced squad could not handle and far from it, forces DD classes to gimp their dps output (the very reason they gear and skill for) trying to accomodate a suboptimal tank. Might as well say a second cleric is better (as much as hercs prefered by many squads) and that veno is an obsolete class in higher levels because if whatever advantages it can provide a group rely on herc, then there really is no point in having a veno if a squad wishes to pursue it's job in the fastest most efficient way. TIME is the most valuable of all resources in an MMO, not coin.