Has Perfect World made it impossible for new players to start playing?

nightmare201

So I've played Perfect World International since a little over a year after it's full release, and I can honestly say the game has gone through a lot of pretty heavy changes. While I don't remember much of how it was end-game at the beginning of my playing, when Tideborn was released I really began to understand how things had changed in PWI. I've played a Blademaster for about 80% of my game time, and thus have had quite an interesting relationship with coin making in-game.

Now the bulk of what I'm going to be saying is based off of my own experiences and is probably wildly different from a lot of other folks for a number of reasons: I have put money into this game, but not enough to be super well geared. I have often given gifts or coin to friends/Factionmates for no return because that's just who I am and what I enjoy. That being said, I really worry about how this game has gone in terms of making coin outside of real money transactions. So briefly I'd like to talk about some of the ways I can recall myself or others making money; and how those ways have slowly disappeared over time. And hopefully I can maybe get some answers as to why they have stayed gone.

1) Non-epic crafting mats: I think most of the playerbase (at least since the time I started playing) has at one time or another gathered crafting mats for the sole purpose of selling them for coin to catshops. I recall quite vividly taking my level 31 psychic out to Orchid Temple (On Dreamweaver for a long time OT was the pk spot), asking for a cleric to give me buffs, and then killing the wolves just outside the tele area for rough fur, then selling it to catshops by the blacksmith in archo for an ok bit of coin (for my level at least). However, with the cash shop leveling items, crafting mats aren't really worth anything anymore besides Apoth mats for high level apothecary items; and those aren't readily available should someone be just starting out.

2) DQ mats: Well just as with Crafting mats, DQ items were a newer players dream if you weren't used to seeing a lot of coins. "Oh wow these sell for 1k coins each? That's amazing!" Or something to that effect was my reaction at least. And towards the later levels of the game, you could very easily farm them in certain areas over and over, getting coin at a fairly steady rate. I can't recall the name of it, but I remember hearing about squads that would go and farm together before genies came out, just to get DQs to sell. And while it certainly wasn't a very fast way to make coin, it was accessible to the entire playerbase from the get go. Sure certain classes couldn't do it as easily as others, but I'd chalk that up to classes having different roles. But sadly not too long ago they removed the price off of DQ items and instead turned them into point farming mats to get items from a store on the PWI website. Now I'm not sure if it's still there, but I know that when they added the "bot" feature to the game that was quickly abused to farm DQ while afk, so I don't exactly blame them but I wish it didn't have to go that way.

3) Epic-crafting mats: Once you got past lvl 60, Twilight Temple became open to you as a crafting area. Suddenly a whole new set of gear and weapons were ready to be made, and with it came the materials that made them. Now for a few years, TT gear remained supreme as the best gear you could get, both because rank gear was extremely hard to get, and because there were lots of people farming it as the end-game. I remember my faction running me through TT 1-1 to get my first set of green axes and being amazed at them. And TT has remained a go-to method of coin making ever since then, but recently it seems to have died in a big way. The War Supply crate giving away free full TT99 gear probably has something to do with that I imagine. But even without that, I think the first big problems came from having assassins being able to stealth through the entire dungeon solo with ease, and then expanded from there with r9 gear and such.

4) Frostcovered City (FF/FC): Once a materials dungeon, Perfect World decided that it would be better off as a leveling area that sometimes dropped gear. Rather silly if you ask me, but hey it's their game. So the advent of FC runs for sale dawned on us. Usually done by 2 people or 1 aps class, this was an interesting idea that quickly turned sour because it also brought with it loads of Hyper Babies that knew nothing about their class and just bought everything they could with gold. And while I can't say it made the game better necessarily, taking it away hurt worse because suddenly the easiest way to get through an already exhausting grind to 100 suddenly became much longer.

5) Jolly Old Jones: A newer addition to the list of ways to make coins, this was added while I was taking a break from the game so I'm honestly not sure if PWI said anything specific about it's intentions, but JoJ quickly became an altoholics best friend as people with loads of alts just did their JoJ dailies and transferred the money to their mains. The problem is that this isn't a great mechanic for a new player. They may quickly figure out JoJ is an "easy" way to make money, but that then requires you to level another toon which takes a lot of time and effort to do. Plus gearing that toon adds to the expenses and just makes it a mess.

6) Flowsilver Palace: FSP is the second to last method of coin making in-game I'll talk about, and from what I've been told it is also slowly dying. An option only available for those nearing end-game, the coins from it pose an interesting problem since they are both an effective way to get cards, and a way to make money. I'm honestly not very experienced with selling them so I'll say it's not a bad addition, it shares the problem with JoJ of needing a lot of alts to be effective (and requires a lot more gear).

7) Merchanting: The most common method I hear about to get lots of coin nowadays is merchanting. Personally I'm horrible at reading what the markets like and have never been successful at it, but I understand that those who are profit from it greatly. What I don't understand is why merchanting has essentially become the only way to get coin consistently if you don't have alts. If you don't have several alts to do JoJ or FSP with, merchanting is your only hope of getting coin for the pricier items.

From the list I just made, numbers 1,2,4,and possibly 6 are either completely gone or mostly gone. And there's a big problem with the first two being there, they're the only ones a completely new player can really use. TT is only effective for making money at 3-3 and that requires a lot of gear and the ability to aps with BP or have a squad, not an easy task for a new player. FC required an APS or Squad as well in it's hay day, and FSP requires gear nowadays. JoJ takes a load of alts to be worth it, and merchanting is primarily for players with a lot of experience in the market and a good starting point of coin to work with. If I joined the game, fresh and never having any experience, the amount of coin required to get a good amount of gear would be staggering. And being told that the only options require gear, money, or alts would not help that in the slightest.

I truly don't understand why, even with the fairly decent steps that have been made in the last year or so, that PWI continues to make it nearly impossible for anyone new to play this game. 60-75% of all the announcements are cash shop based, and only offer some help to a newer player. But for a Free to Play game, there's not a whole lot of options to actually play for free! Anyways I'm curious of thoughts on what I've said and corrections for anything I've gotten wrong.

shag1991

okay so lets see you pretty much answered your own question for number 1, 2. yes 3, those free 99 gears killed TT market and 4. Jolly Jones is an hassle i dont do it because maybe im lazy but i remember someone telling me in game that to make real money i would need like over 10 lvl 71 alts and do JJ daily, the dailies of pwi is annoying enough no way in hell could i do this. By the way i wouldnt say gear is an issue for JJ, All gear under g15 so easy to get these days. most of them free.
FSP i do but here is the issue with fsp the profit you make daily gets lessens and im going to blame those Lord of Morai chest and Warsong chest that they have in game, people no longer depend on luck to get good cards, so i remember back when i started doing fsp you were looking at 4m per run, some weeks ago 1m per run now its less. Keep in mind that some classes are also necessary to complete fsd whether you do the long way or nuke, at times it takes forever to build a squad, so even with multiple alts you dont get to do alot of runs in a day, unless you're certain people who habe an alt army.
With merchanting i would say it takes money to make money and a whole lot of patience, keep in mind that nowadays there is more sellers than buyers and if you're not able to run a catshop 24/7 or commission shop its a little harder. So overall new players who dont intend to cash shop are screwed
Oh yeah let me be fair and say if you're a new player and simply plan to pve then you should have no problem, work your way up to nv3 and you're set, keep in mind that even in pve though better gear players will always get preference over you, but you're a bm your gear not important get demon HF max passives and have fun lmao

bloodedone87

shag1991 wrote: »

Oh yeah let me be fair and say if you're a new player and simply plan to pve then you should have no problem, work your way up to nv3 and you're set, keep in mind that even in pve though better gear players will always get preference over you, but you're a bm your gear not important get demon HF max passives and have fun lmao

Should have no problem to pve if you just do dailies and dungeons like EU, FWS and other older instances but if aiming for JFPS, UP you need the r9rrr.

wisewillowtree

When I first started in 2008...it was fun to collect mats, and make your own gear. Then the permanant Dreamchaser pack started being given out free....no one makes gear under 50 anymore except to level up crafting so you can eventually make your TT and up gear. Otherwise, why bother with the selection anymore? The game really is nothing more now than grinding til you are 60...then it starts to get a bit more fun...but only a bit. I realize you wanted to make more money (that's what it is about now right? Money? Fun doesn't mean anything anymore right?) when you nerfed the DQ mats to 1 coin and ammo to zero, forcing us to put real life money into the game. But all you did was make the game boring at the under 60 levels, and taking away most of the inititive to farm. Free gear til 40, why bother? No way to get money except real cash til you are at least 100...you basically ruined a good game...all in the name of more cash more zen mo money mo money mo money...but that's all it is about now, right?

phantomforce#4598

A a new "returning" player, I can understand some of this I think.

Look at the industry though. In many "F2P" MMO's they put hard caps. You can't get past X level unless you pony up for a subscription. You can't get into certain areas until you have gear or levels that are only available by spending actual money into the game.

I think the biggest issue is the stagnancy of the players. This is an older title, and the systems and graphics are years behind most of the rest of the industry. (Excluding browser games.) Add to that the idea of starting as a newbie when the majority of the rest of the player base is much farther advanced in levels, and you are loosing a lot of draw to attract new players. The end result is that the player base isn't significantly growing or changing. How do you cater to that? You make exclusive new content for them to spend money on.
Think of the alternative. No new content requiring you to invest considerable time and money. Soon everyone has reached end-game. PvP is no true contest. PWE doesn't make money because people stop buying, the player base decreases, then the servers shut down.

Now, back to being a new player. I totally agree with the DQ item prices. On a similar note, I did my research and I can see exactly why they are the way they are. Supposedly we've been compensated some in the questing. I need to play more to find out though. I have the pill now to instant level, and I probably have all the pills for gear. My issue is that when I use that, how will I know how to play? Will I still be able to do my learning quests afterwards? Do I really want to eat the pill and grow up too fast, or do I want to save it and level casually?

In the end, we will have to dedicate either time, or money, to get what we want or need I think. It appears they are definitely making it a lot harder for those of us that cannot afford to simply drop a significant part of our paychecks to move along.​​

nightmare201

My biggest issue, and one I think I didn't say very clearly in my original post, is that most of the methods I outlined were/are ways to make money in the game; but when 1 disappeared, another didn't replace it, it just stayed gone. And the total number of available ways to make money has dropped to really only the 3 I mentioned at the end. Even if you're not factoring in new players, it's really difficult for someone to play this game without spending real money.

heerohex#3018

Not totally true...

1 you need to know your class and 2 you need to know your limits.

being a PvP player in this game from scratch is not impossible but unless you have time or money I would Write that idea off. As for PvE the game is somewhat easier than in past years.

The PvP balance between players and the " Gear Gap" of gears is very BIG. but R8S2 is not that hard to obtain. Really if and it will happen soon R10 comes out I would hope they either allow players With R9 to cover some of the cost via upgrading or make it easier to obtain R9 from the word Go.

Time will tell...

Yes and No is my answer it all depends what you aim for.

eirghan

The problem is that, like @phantomforce#4598 says, it takes time or money. 3 or 4 really large markets for people who wanted to invest time disappeared. There are even more than whats listed in the op. So compound the disappearing markets with server merges you now have double the people farming 10% of the original available markets. Which means the value of those farmed items flood the market as the markets decrease, prices drop, and those last few markets to invest "time" in to make money take 80% more time for less money. Eventually those players have to make a decision if the grind is still fun or worth it. And if its not, if the game is still worthwhile enough to charge their cards.

And then the reality: if f2p players quit game and the player base shrinks in exchange for more cash (like they caused flooding the market with pack sales and eliminating farming routes like tomes) in pwi eyes its a good trade. They make nothing off of free players and they want to make more off of those who spend.

Basically this is an issue we have to accept in my eyes in exchange for the servers to keep running. The only thing is, and forgive my negative personal opinion, its a downward spiral. Absence of f2p forces combination farmer/spenders to charge more or quit, f2p have to start to charge or quit at a certain point. But that is natural. And interesting if youve studied the concept of entropy

nightmare201

eirghan wrote: »

The problem is that, like @phantomforce#4598 says, it takes time or money. 3 or 4 really large markets for people who wanted to invest time disappeared. There are even more than whats listed in the op. So compound the disappearing markets with server merges you now have double the people farming 10% of the original available markets. Which means the value of those farmed items flood the market as the markets decrease, prices drop, and those last few markets to invest "time" in to make money take 80% more time for less money. Eventually those players have to make a decision if the grind is still fun or worth it. And if its not, if the game is still worthwhile enough to charge their cards.

And then the reality: if f2p players quit game and the player base shrinks in exchange for more cash (like they caused flooding the market with pack sales and eliminating farming routes like tomes) in pwi eyes its a good trade. They make nothing off of free players and they want to make more off of those who spend.

Basically this is an issue we have to accept in my eyes in exchange for the servers to keep running. The only thing is, and forgive my negative personal opinion, its a downward spiral. Absence of f2p forces combination farmer/spenders to charge more or quit, f2p have to start to charge or quit at a certain point. But that is natural. And interesting if youve studied the concept of entropy

Then I would ask, is there really any possibility the game will get more friendly to f2p people? Or is it going to just be a doomed game down the line when enough people stop charging money?

eirghan

I cant answer for pw, maybe they will surprise us all, but in my opinion it will never be f2p friendly like it was, and definitely not at end game.

Like @phantomforce#4598 pointed out a lot of games have level caps for f2p (ffxiv recently implemented this) i think its similar in pw now. You can f2p all you want 1-100 g16, r8rr etc. And actually thats a really excellent gap for f2p, players have a ton of choices in how you want to gear, fashion, factions, instances, thats a ton of content for not spending a dime. But end game, pvp etc will always be locked to cashers and the Insane Farmers who can stomach that 12 alt daily grind for 10m

Tldr i think f2p is still there just limited in content and it will never expand much beyond what is there now.

greenfire312

phantomforce#4598 wrote: »

Look at the industry though. In many "F2P" MMO's they put hard caps. You can't get past X level unless you pony up for a subscription. You can't get into certain areas until you have gear or levels that are only available by spending actual money into the game.

This is true, but the answer to this should not be "hey, we may suck at some things at least we're not doing that." Other games, for the purposes of this topic, are virtually irrelevant. The question is what's stopping newbies from playing PWI specifically, and while the answer to that has always been some variation on "it's a pay to win game," there are specific barriers to entry that PWE has never sufficiently addressed.

(Disclaimer: the following wall-o-text is responding to the thread and not specifically to you, phantom )

High among these barriers, as the OP alludes to, is moneymaking. He's absolutely right in saying that Jolly Old Jones is one of the only guaranteed methods out there for newbies, and there's a reason for that. It's one of the few methods that generates new coin instead of just passing around the existing coin in the market, unless you count BH and event rewards which are generally unreliable.

Which would otherwise be fine, except we've been told a million times that inflation is out of control and we desperately need coin sinks. Do we? I don't think so, personally, at least not to the degree that we already have them. Homestead comes to mind - an otherwise excellent piece of content marred heavily by the need for massive expenditures to the system for the purposes of upkeep and expansion.

They actually nerfed those coin rewards from quests - and while they did remove skill costs for pre-Lv11 skills, the costs to learn anything above that are still there and still significant. 1mil per base Lv11 skill, several mil to learn various others (Morai, Primal, Homestead), and now 10mil to learn a single glyph-able skill (to say nothing of the spirit cost which practically demands its own damn thread).

There are significant crafting fees for almost any gear set that can be considered "endgame" - even those that aren't PVP-based. Ever farmed Morai g15s2? No, of course you haven't, because it's 6.8mil per base piece of armor and another 9mil to s2 it, and that's not even counting the weapon (16.8 mil for s1, 36m to convert to s2). That's over 130mil in crafting fees, and it's not even PVP gear! Nirvana g16 is downright reasonable by comparison.



The point of my rambling is, this is not a newbie-friendly system. In any game, there has to be a direct and visible link between goals (skills, gear, vanity items, etc.) and available means to achieve them, or people get frustrated and quit. And the means may seem obvious to us who've played for years, but for a newbie the question of "how do I make money?" should not be answered with any of the following:

"Farm TT for gold mats / WS for essences" (y'know, using the APS characters you don't have)
"Do well in NW" (using the PVP gear you don't have)
"Just do BH every day and hope to get lucky" (using the 10+ eligible characters you don't have)
"Do a lot of merchanting" (as I agree with the OP that merchanting really is not for everyone)
"CREDIT CARDS LOL"

For my part, I've been playing since 2008 and never once have I had a stable source of income that lasted more than a year or two (unless you count BH, which I personally don't). I farmed Pages of Fate back before FSP killed that market, I dabbled in merching high-value skill books for awhile, I sent my barb into NW to get smacked around when that was still profitable, I did a fair amount of HS contracting before a certain glitch started literally clearing out the money I made from it. FSP is still decent coin for the moment, but that market is starting to drop as well. This past week I've made a good amount just by sending every eligible character I have to farm glyphs, which are selling pretty damn well to (what I can only assume are) impatient PVP-minded folks. But I'm under no illusions that that market will be as rewarding as it is in a month or so, and even if it was, it requires alts which a newbie wouldn't have.

Bottom line here is, I wouldn't expect a newbie to do any of the things I did. I would expect a newbie to do a few daily quests, BH runs, and maybe a few runs to farm their own gear. Guess what? Those things don't earn you much coin. And ultimately, that is why people leave.

capnk

bloodedone87 wrote: »

Should have no problem to pve if you just do dailies and dungeons like EU, FWS and other older instances but if aiming for JFPS, UP you need the r9rrr.

Oh please I've done JFPS in level 85 Quicksand gear. You do not need massive gear for PVE in this game. Everything currently in game can be done with Grade 16 Nirvana*. Gear is needed for PVP only.

*We don't know how hard full Dawnlight is yet, but anything pre-Neverfall is certainly doable in G16NV.

dingo488

PWI PvE uses methods which basically follow the rule that u have to execute their mechanics properly or you'll get 1shot, meaning gear doesn't matter at all in PvE. I wouldn't be too worried about the noobs that think you need r9rr, these guys dont even know or understand the bosses themselves. All they know how to do is nuke bosses with a macro (click 1 button!), they basically don't even play the PvE aspect of the game. There's squads with max geared players that are scared to do an instance without a seeker, this game might have the laziest n worst PvE community in any game I've ever played. You absolutely do not need to nuke any bosses, so in PvE you'll be more than fine with any type of gear, you'll just have to learn how the bosses work, and which things you have to avoid to not get 1shot! If anything you'll probably have way more fun doing instances than the people that just click 1 button to kill a boss.

yoabu#2667

I'll chime in. This is from the perspective of a player who has spent a fair amount of both time and money on the game. I started playing PWI some 4 months ago. Since then I got 3x103, Shifting V, full r9r3+10/11 armour with vit stones, r9r3 +12 weapon, NW r9 +12 ring. Sitting at a bit over 800 spirit. Missing a single War Avatar card for three sets (AEU, Aba and SoT).

I join the TNF. Ported to a new room, fully buffed, no debuffs, I get hit for 56k. This doesn't happen often, but I regularly take 25k+ hits.
I use the barb ulti in TNF and I don't land a single hit over 1k.
I can't do the new dungeon because I'm not Shifting X yet.
I can't do the new culti because I'm not Shifting X yet.
I don't have a host of offline friends to abuse the Friend Invite thingy like so many people do on a daily basis (even if the event is not on) so I don't have a hoard of Ancient Gifts. I'm making as good a use of the AGs we get from events as I can.
I farmed my **** off in TT, Lunar and WS (fortunately my gear is more than good enough for soloing these).

As you might have guessed from the tone, it's all a tad frustrating. I realise the gear I have is not the end all be all, but one would expect after so much time and effort put into the game (exhibit A: half an hour of PV every day for as long as I could get the item from the Morai order NPC) I would see myself getting closer to being on equal terms with the rest. As it is I could have stuck with my g16. The farming would have been slower, but it really doesn't make much difference whether I get hit for 56k or 156k. Both are a one-shot.

/rant

bloodedone87

capnk wrote: »

bloodedone87 wrote: »

Should have no problem to pve if you just do dailies and dungeons like EU, FWS and other older instances but if aiming for JFPS, UP you need the r9rrr.

Oh please I've done JFPS in level 85 Quicksand gear. You do not need massive gear for PVE in this game. Everything currently in game can be done with Grade 16 Nirvana*. Gear is needed for PVP only.

*We don't know how hard full Dawnlight is yet, but anything pre-Neverfall is certainly doable in G16NV.

I was talking about the fact that almost no one will take you in squad in those instances if you are not r9rrr not that you cannot do it with less gear. I have done JFPS with G16. That when I cared about it.

greenfire312

capnk wrote: »

bloodedone87 wrote: »

Should have no problem to pve if you just do dailies and dungeons like EU, FWS and other older instances but if aiming for JFPS, UP you need the r9rrr.

Oh please I've done JFPS in level 85 Quicksand gear. You do not need massive gear for PVE in this game. Everything currently in game can be done with Grade 16 Nirvana*. Gear is needed for PVP only.

*We don't know how hard full Dawnlight is yet, but anything pre-Neverfall is certainly doable in G16NV.

I'd like to second this. I've had all kinds of people react with utter shock to the fact that I'm not interested in R9, but it's never stopped me from participating in instances. My mains both run in g15 gear currently (with the exception of the barb's s1 Warsoul wep), they've done so for years and I've never had a problem. If there ever was a current instance where you "couldn't survive" in such gear, the advent of primal passives has soundly negated that problem. Hell, I've got a mystic alt who I put in full 90s mold armor (with g17s1 weapon) and I'm going to see how far I can get him on primal passives - I wouldn't be surprised if he could do UP eventually as well.

When people say you "need" R9, what they're saying is "I'm used to a run where Mushi dies in fifteen seconds or less and I will whine incessantly if this turns out not to be the case." But you've never actually needed R9 for anything yet, and the day they make an instance that does require it is the day that they shaft everyone else, which will not do wonders for player retention.

phantomforce#4598

@eirghan @greenfire312 In looking at the current status, I think it's a very similar approach to the level-locked games. If you really think about it further, PWI has that limitation, but at the same time it does not. If you invest the time, you should be able to eventually make the in-game coins playing free to be able to do the needed gear upgrades to participate in top-tier content outside of PvP.

I think the issue really is that this game needs a revival, and in it's current state that is difficult. My personal opinion is that the major walls new players are presented with are the time-sucking daily quests, and the state of the player economy. Keep in mind though, the majority of my opinion right now is based on my past experience from years ago, and a short time of experience now. plus what i read here in forum.​​

bloodedone87

My question is where are the „economy experts” that were telling everyone on the forum that when they will nerf DQ and autocultivation will stop everything will become milk and honey?

greenfire312

phantomforce#4598 wrote: »

@eirghan @greenfire312 In looking at the current status, I think it's a very similar approach to the level-locked games. If you really think about it further, PWI has that limitation, but at the same time it does not. If you invest the time, you should be able to eventually make the in-game coins playing free to be able to do the needed gear upgrades to participate in top-tier content outside of PvP.

In the sense that high-end PVE content does not require high-end gear, you are certainly correct.

phantomforce#4598 wrote: »

I think the issue really is that this game needs a revival, and in it's current state that is difficult. My personal opinion is that the major walls new players are presented with are the time-sucking daily quests, and the state of the player economy. Keep in mind though, the majority of my opinion right now is based on my past experience from years ago, and a short time of experience now. plus what i read here in forum.​​

The problem is that a revival will look different to each person. My idea of a revival, for instance, involves severe nerfs to several endgame gear sets and a complete lack of purchasable gear-related items in the cash shop - which given the state of the game now, could only realistically be accomplished with a new server using different rules than the current ones. Obviously I'm not holding my breath on that.

Regarding dailies specifically: I would tend to agree that some dailies, particularly Primal dailies, need to be more streamlined and the rewards concentrated in fewer quests. They made some minor steps in that direction recently, but it wasn't nearly enough to be realistically doable on multiple characters per day along with anything else you feel like doing. Personally, when I do primals, it's only on one or two characters at a time, and some days I don't do them at all in favor of other dailies (FSP money runs, for instance). Switching it up keeps the game fresh, IMO.

dregenfox

The issue is that China for some reason is deathly paranoid of allowing people to farm for any length of time. They think this will increase the longevity of the game. PWE staff are either unable, unwilling, or incapable of convincing the China devs that the American market has different expectations than the Chinese market.

I also get the impression that the Chinese devs treat their American partners like inferior little children who can't take care of themselves, and only worth thinking about during the free time they have while taking a dump at the toilet. At least that's what I feel from the responses they have seemed to give us. I wish the partnership was more equitable like in other Asian-licensed game's I've played.

capnk

yoabu#2667 wrote: »

I'll chime in. This is from the perspective of a player who has spent a fair amount of both time and money on the game. I started playing PWI some 4 months ago. Since then I got 3x103, Shifting V, full r9r3+10/11 armour with vit stones, r9r3 +12 weapon, NW r9 +12 ring. Sitting at a bit over 800 spirit. Missing a single War Avatar card for three sets (AEU, Aba and SoT).

I join the TNF. Ported to a new room, fully buffed, no debuffs, I get hit for 56k. This doesn't happen often, but I regularly take 25k+ hits.
I use the barb ulti in TNF and I don't land a single hit over 1k.
I can't do the new dungeon because I'm not Shifting X yet.
I can't do the new culti because I'm not Shifting X yet.
I don't have a host of offline friends to abuse the Friend Invite thingy like so many people do on a daily basis (even if the event is not on) so I don't have a hoard of Ancient Gifts. I'm making as good a use of the AGs we get from events as I can.
I farmed my **** off in TT, Lunar and WS (fortunately my gear is more than good enough for soloing these).

As you might have guessed from the tone, it's all a tad frustrating. I realise the gear I have is not the end all be all, but one would expect after so much time and effort put into the game (exhibit A: half an hour of PV every day for as long as I could get the item from the Morai order NPC) I would see myself getting closer to being on equal terms with the rest. As it is I could have stuck with my g16. The farming would have been slower, but it really doesn't make much difference whether I get hit for 56k or 156k. Both are a one-shot.

/rant

Wow, entitled much? Why would you possibly expect to be competitive with players that have been playing for years in 4 months? The fact that you've gotten that far indicates how damn easy PW makes it for new players. Which is where the problem lies. These "pill-babies" can level super fast, buy their gear straight out of the cashshop, and access nearly every part of the game in four months. But they won't know how to play their class worth a ****. The slower grind that we had before actually taught you how to play.

dregenfox

capnk wrote: »

yoabu#2667 wrote: »

I'll chime in. This is from the perspective of a player who has spent a fair amount of both time and money on the game. I started playing PWI some 4 months ago. Since then I got 3x103, Shifting V, full r9r3+10/11 armour with vit stones, r9r3 +12 weapon, NW r9 +12 ring. Sitting at a bit over 800 spirit. Missing a single War Avatar card for three sets (AEU, Aba and SoT).

I join the TNF. Ported to a new room, fully buffed, no debuffs, I get hit for 56k. This doesn't happen often, but I regularly take 25k+ hits.
I use the barb ulti in TNF and I don't land a single hit over 1k.
I can't do the new dungeon because I'm not Shifting X yet.
I can't do the new culti because I'm not Shifting X yet.
I don't have a host of offline friends to abuse the Friend Invite thingy like so many people do on a daily basis (even if the event is not on) so I don't have a hoard of Ancient Gifts. I'm making as good a use of the AGs we get from events as I can.
I farmed my **** off in TT, Lunar and WS (fortunately my gear is more than good enough for soloing these).

As you might have guessed from the tone, it's all a tad frustrating. I realise the gear I have is not the end all be all, but one would expect after so much time and effort put into the game (exhibit A: half an hour of PV every day for as long as I could get the item from the Morai order NPC) I would see myself getting closer to being on equal terms with the rest. As it is I could have stuck with my g16. The farming would have been slower, but it really doesn't make much difference whether I get hit for 56k or 156k. Both are a one-shot.

/rant

Wow, entitled much? Why would you possibly expect to be competitive with players that have been playing for years in 4 months? The fact that you've gotten that far indicates how damn easy PW makes it for new players. Which is where the problem lies. These "pill-babies" can level super fast, buy their gear straight out of the cashshop, and access nearly every part of the game in four months. But they won't know how to play their class worth a ****. The slower grind that we had before actually taught you how to play.

Grinding pve doesn't teach you how to play. That's why there are extremely pro players in CS:go even though there's no leveling in that game. It all depends on mindset and willingness to learn from mistakes/study the game. Or take advice.

Also the issue for him is mainly a lack of spirit. Shifting 5 + no card set + crappy star chart means every endgamed player has something like a 70%+ damage bonus + defense bonus against him.

eirghan

@capnk said:
Wow, entitled much? Why would you possibly expect to be competitive with players that have been playing for years in 4 months? The fact that you've gotten that far indicates how damn easy PW makes it for new players. Which is where the problem lies. These "pill-babies" can level super fast, buy their gear straight out of the cashshop, and access nearly every part of the game in four months. But they won't know how to play their class worth a ****. The slower grind that we had before actually taught you how to play.


Isnt part of this discussion about the wellbeing and longevity of pwi as a free to play title?

You may have some good points hidden in there but the way you address your comment (and anyone who has this mindset) is part of the problem. The part of the player base who thinks "pill babies" are garbage, and have no right to their opinion because they havent played long enough are 100% for sure the part of driving new players away. Who wants to play a game where 90% of the playerbase is old players who think new players are entitled?

Youve played for years? Good, so have i. When i started we levelled to level 100 and got gear. When this guy started he had to level to 300, get gear, 5 sky levels, a card set, star chart and now runes for his skills. We as a community would do well to keep that in mind when a new player finds the game challenging. It IS challenging. We were fed it in bite sized pieces.

edited because quote system is hard on mobile​​

greenfire312

eirghan wrote: »

Isnt part of this discussion about the wellbeing and longevity of pwi as a free to play title?

You may have some good points hidden in there but the way you address your comment (and anyone who has this mindset) is part of the problem. The part of the player base who thinks "pill babies" are garbage, and have no right to their opinion because they havent played long enough are 100% for sure the part of driving new players away. Who wants to play a game where 90% of the playerbase is old players who think new players are entitled?

Youve played for years? Good, so have i. When i started we levelled to level 100 and got gear. When this guy started he had to level to 300, get gear, 5 sky levels, a card set, star chart and now runes for his skills. We as a community would do well to keep that in mind when a new player finds the game challenging. It IS challenging. We were fed it in bite sized pieces.

edited because quote system is hard on mobile​​

Both of you have good points and not-so-good points here, but I think the common denominator is that elitism has many faces. There's "pillbabies inherently don't know how to play" elitism, but then there's also "if you don't have [R9S3/g16/etc], I'm going to assume you can't play." Not to say that yoabu or anyone in this thread implied the latter (though bloodedone87's assertion of "you need r9rr [for JFSP/UP]" comes close), but R9 is often purchased on this general mindset, and there's often a fine distinction between those who learned the game along with their purchase, and those who play as if the purchase is a substitute for learning the game.

Regarding amount of time to learn the game... can you learn a class in four months? Sure. Can you learn it without completing the lowgame and midgame, by using a 95/100 pill? Yes, though I would argue it's harder. Can you do all that if it's also your first character and you've never played the game before? Clearly yoabu has, but I would say that's a stretch for some people.

I, for example, have two pillbabies I'm working through culti right now, and even though I've seen those classes played for years (and my wife has every class that I don't), I still struggle to get comfortable with, for example, all the Seeker's skills when I get them in such quick succession. Though to be fair, that may be more due to the fact that all the seeker skills friggin look the same, but I digress.

My point is, different people are going to overcome PWI's learning curve in different amounts of time, but the key factor is willingness to learn... particularly from others who came before you (and who are willing to not be elitist about your attempts to learn, which also sadly happens). If you have that, you're good. If you're not willing to do that, you're going to be pissing off squads no matter what your gear is.

The other question - which I'm going to leave open - is "how long is an appropriate length of time to expect to catch up, and what does catching up entail?" On one end of the spectrum you have your heavy cashers who can do it quickly, which does engender some resentment among established players (and not all of that is unearned). On the other end, some people will grind for years and never come close to "catching up." My personal solution has always been to not bother trying to "catch up," and subsequently not care much about the PVP.

kyoske

@yoabu#2667 please share some of your farming brilliance with me because if you started over a month ago and have r9 then you either have no life outside of game or you cash shopped, so teach me because I'm an f2p player
@eirghan i get what you're saying to cap and I agree but cap is somewhat justified as it relates to pwi, there are people who just start this game charge gold get OP gear and still suck and complain about it. You know my bm eirghan I'm f2p I'm nv3, now maybe my priorities weren't in the right place and I wasted opportunities to make money but I'm okay with what I have(well i try to convince myself that i am). Now back to me being f2p, so being f2p this is what i have full nv3+6,7,8, plan to make helm and robe +8, warsong g15 elemental belt the green one and basic cube ele neck with i think lvl 5 tome, sky cover and wang ring and okayish star chart and lord of morai set. yay me, thats how i felt when i got it some months ago until pwi introduce those chest so everyone could get it, currently i stand at 1913 spirit, so yes i could kill that yoabu person.
This is why i dont like people like him and wouldnt get mad at cap, just by creating alts i know the grind to catch up with my bm would be hell and my bm isnt anywhere near endgame, but you have this dude who started 4 months ago probably bought cash shopped everything(he probably bought the account thats what came to mind at first but who am i to judge) and he expects to stand toe to toe with veterans,

dregenfox

kyoske wrote: »

@yoabu#2667 please share some of your farming brilliance with me because if you started over a month ago and have r9 then you either have no life outside of game or you cash shopped, so teach me because I'm an f2p player
@eirghan i get what you're saying to cap and I agree but cap is somewhat justified as it relates to pwi, there are people who just start this game charge gold get OP gear and still suck and complain about it. You know my bm eirghan I'm f2p I'm nv3, now maybe my priorities weren't in the right place and I wasted opportunities to make money but I'm okay with what I have(well i try to convince myself that i am). Now back to me being f2p, so being f2p this is what i have full nv3+6,7,8, plan to make helm and robe +8, warsong g15 elemental belt the green one and basic cube ele neck with i think lvl 5 tome, sky cover and wang ring and okayish star chart and lord of morai set. yay me, thats how i felt when i got it some months ago until pwi introduce those chest so everyone could get it, currently i stand at 1913 spirit, so yes i could kill that yoabu person.
This is why i dont like people like him and wouldnt get mad at cap, just by creating alts i know the grind to catch up with my bm would be hell and my bm isnt anywhere near endgame, but you have this dude who started 4 months ago probably bought cash shopped everything(he probably bought the account thats what came to mind at first but who am i to judge) and he expects to stand toe to toe with veterans,

I think 4 months of focused investment + cash shopping should at least give him a chance. The win/loss gap by veterans vs "pill babies" should be the massive burden of knowledge required in this game - ie the difficulty in identifying and tracking cooldowns/buffs/debuffs due to the clunky interface and lack of information.

As it stands now he worked "hard" in both CS'ing and dailies+farming to get R9rr +11 and good shards, and still gets one-shot by pretty much every ho-hum character with full spirit. I don't think that's fair.

In all honesty everyone being near equal-ish in gear disparity would be wonderful for arenas. It's a hard balance to strike, and I wish pwi made more effort than they do now to make this achievable for newbies.

There's no reason R9rr should cost as much as it does now, especially considering that just getting R9rr is only the beginning of the gear-ing up process.

eirghan

This guy didnt charge his gear though. This thread is about farming and f2p. Just because they feel like theyre walking underwater doesnt mean we should step on them too.

And who cares if someone does charge their gear? A new player wants to join in and charge through the nose to pk my ****? Fine by me. You wanna pay to keep the servers running? Hell yes!

Last thing ill ever complain about especially is someone who wants to charge their gear and still suck because what is a better feeling for the long time entitled players of this game than pking noobs with better gear and more money?

kyoske

@dregenfox fair enough and maybe in some other game but he is playing pwi not some other game. No matter how we complain the spirit factor wont go, it was here before 4 months ago and its here now, so either he humble himself and raise his spirit or quit while he is ahead, plus keep in mind that even if he had cash shopped for his gear, there is much more things to raise other than spirit, i dont remember him mentioning passives, meridian, titles, nuema. It all adds up.
People complain about leveling and some may complain about the spirit factor, but if an f2p player like myself who gets to play undisturb like 2hrs a day can get 1913 spirit with a great potential to pass the 2k barrier then any1 can do it. Most older players had to farm 1 A pack a day from fsd and hope to get lucky, nowadays pwi giving A chest free, i have low level alts with cards, my sin has 3 cards sets already. taking leveling out of this, but complaining about spirit come on thats just straight up being spoiled. All these free cards killed fsp farming. They need to fix the economy. I agree though with your last statement r999 cost is a lot.

kyoske

@eirghan unless he played this game religiously or have a ton load of alt that he did JJ with he charged his gear and as you said i have no problem with that, in fact thank you because strangely i still like pwi and if i could i would charge too but you keep this game running and i appreciate that. What i have a problem with is people complaining about something as simple as spirit.
Spirit and meridian are like the only two things in this game that still takes some luck. Its even easier now with those avatar chest, so yes i love the feeling i get when a r999 person tries to pk me at backpack or any other time and i kill them, but even i know that in some weeks I may die because they can close the spirit gap but the gear gap is a different story. Also if he is so hard working and focus to the point where he can farm is gear( let's say he did) then he should be focused enough to easily fix spirit.
Lets see he could easily have farmed coins for lucky coins, do his nuema runs, get a starchart and hold a pretty girl so he gets lucky when rolling and let's see 4 months ago hmmm, pwi would have given out a good amount of cards since then or since he is a dedicated farmer, do FSP. 1 A pack a day that was a thrill, i do find opening multiple packs at once to be better for me.

nightmare201

kyoske wrote: »

@dregenfox fair enough and maybe in some other game but he is playing pwi not some other game. No matter how we complain the spirit factor wont go, it was here before 4 months ago and its here now, so either he humble himself and raise his spirit or quit while he is ahead, plus keep in mind that even if he had cash shopped for his gear, there is much more things to raise other than spirit, i dont remember him mentioning passives, meridian, titles, nuema. It all adds up.
People complain about leveling and some may complain about the spirit factor, but if an f2p player like myself who gets to play undisturb like 2hrs a day can get 1913 spirit with a great potential to pass the 2k barrier then any1 can do it. Most older players had to farm 1 A pack a day from fsd and hope to get lucky, nowadays pwi giving A chest free, i have low level alts with cards, my sin has 3 cards sets already. taking leveling out of this, but complaining about spirit come on thats just straight up being spoiled. All these free cards killed fsp farming. They need to fix the economy. I agree though with your last statement r999 cost is a lot.

How long have you been playing, cause the game (as I stated in the main post) had a lot more options for a f2p player to get coins. I had a friend who farmed his full 3rd cast without spending a dime, but gear no longer is a the big factor. It's a legitimate complaint that a person, regardless of cashing or farming for their gear, is suddenly put behind everyone else because he hasn't be playing as long and has no way to effectively catch up short of praying that he's lucky. You can "farm" for your a cards, but realistically you just have to hope that the RNG gods will bless him to get a set, or just good a cards in general.

If you'd prefer to still take a standpoint of "He hasn't been playing as long as I have, therefore he has no right to complain about getting one shot; what else is he supposed to do at max gear? This game's end-game is solely pvp-based. There is dungeons he can run, yes, but what on earth is he gonna do with his gear? My bm isn't quite as refined or sharded as his barb, but my enjoyment of this game has severely died because there's no end-game I can actually compete in effectively. And if my BM and his barb, both of whom have "end-game" gear essentially are one shot material in the only available end-game content (that being TW, xTW, and now the 3v3/6v6 arena) then what hope does a new or just newer/returning player have? I actually had someone who quit around the time sins were released come back and basically had to tell him that all the ways he knew how to make money were gone, and that there really wasn't a good grinding method to get money besides TT 3-3.

kyoske

@nightmare201 and you my friend go back to the fact that money is hard to make in this game and as i clearly stated im a f2p person, so if anyone has that complain, trust me i do, but the point is spirit though a major factor in pvp, is one of the easiest things to get in this game. take out card sets out of it even though they are easier to get these days and starcharts even though most people can get atleast 1 spirit stat on a chart. It doesnt change the fact that spirit is far more easier now to get than before. I mean he said he is mirage sky that means he should even be able to access neverfall, the vitae from quest there is pretty sweet; wasted on most Ts10 persons but still sweet, older players didnt have that, so here you are defending this dude when for one this post was originally about making money to make or buy gear that he himself admitted he already had. All he needs now is the spirit which is an easy 1-2-3, If anything this dude somewhat derailed the post and you should see that seeing you are the OP