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Any word on the impossible/near impossible Random Q's

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  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 Is there an option to cut RAQ in two?

    A lot of dungeon there was originally designed to be REQ and RAQ was everything that not quite hit that level. But now, there is a huge group from eDemo to CR, which means you cannot ever guess which difficulty you run for. Which means, you have to premade, because otherwise your party might not be ready for that que. RIQ and the leveling que, for the most has a consistent difficulty and REQ is the most consistent. But RAQ is the "everything else" group that sometimes just unsatisfactory boringness and a few times, hell with almost instantly blasting balls of flames.

    While it has a lot of factor into it (more que increases playtime if you want to finish all, AD economy...) I think if a certain content is balanced into a difficulty, like CR-TONG-CODG(?) it should be it's tier of difficulty.

    Players should have a sense of power by knowing which tier of Random que they can do, and what they can't. Not just hope they don't get the "bad" RAQ.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,083 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    is Castle Never a queue? Or is this one of those things you HAVE to make a premade for?

    CN is in RIQ. I've run it a number of times by queuing RIQ. If it is something you do want to run and don't have a party, queue directly and let the random fill the party for you.
    Post edited by greywynd on
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • planestrider#4331 planestrider Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    If people die to CR mechanism that you lot call "red flames" its because they still dont follow the simple instruction given on the loading screen sometimes "red is bad, it means the enemy is about to launch a powerful attack".

    That is neither what I meant not what happened. Please don't tell players they're all inept noobs. If you had read my posting completely, you might have noticed that I also have a problem with the camera, walls, and seeing the ground. This also applies to CR if the healer stands close to the wall, even if I did not write it down here.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited August 2019


    That leads to the fact that it could be a build or power combination that isn't working as well as other setups. That is more complicated since there are so many factors, but it does lead to questions of what better information we can put out there to help players know which parts of character building are more important or less, which powers/power combos we could boost up a bit and more. We've actually been having conversations lately on how we can help players, especially those just hitting level 80, with better information on areas of character improvement or even content that is a better match to their current progress to help players avoid the frustration of jumping into something their character will struggle to survive.

    I do a lot of PUG RLQ/RAQ on my 23k tank. I experience much of what is written previously in this thread.

    I will however add one more reason why people fails:
    They are inexperienced and do not know the encounters and basic tactics. Or they are not integrated enough in the community to get or pick up advice on building a character. Just yesterday we had to ask a tank in LoMM to leave because he was running with 50k arpen and 55k defense, yet had 22k IL.. just a bad build(no augment pet). He chaindied and could not keep aggro - we did explain things to him though.

    And even worse: Some people refuse to listen to instructions, either for personal reasons(ego..) or because they do not have the language skills(english is default in PUGs) or because they just do not watch their chat window. In a way the high translation rate of NW content becomes a problem because we get players that are not fluent in english, and that becomes a problem when it is necessary to give instructions on builds or tactics.

    With the exception of Bank Heist(requires too much raw dps to keep up with spawns), and CR/Tong, I have an OK completion rate on most instances without resorting to votekicking weak players. But I sometimes need to spend a bit of time explaining things.

    The one thing that makes votekick happen with me is if I cannot communicate with a player that needs instructions.

    To avoid situations where groups fail because they just don't know to handle a dungeon you would need some system that assures an experienced player in group. Maybe add a self-toggleable mentor flag and make sure you get at least one in each group, or since anything 'self' is exploitable in some way, consider people with 10+ runs of a dungeon veterans and make sure each group get at least one if possible.
    I hear a lot of comments that players that do not communicate are idiots or bots. A lot of them are, but the statement is simply not true enough to be stated. There are many new players who simply do not chat unless they have to... let alone read chat on a mission. Some players just want to try it out.. doing their personal best.. and do not see or read chat at all ever. For an experienced outsider... you know how this will look.

    I don't know how bad the 'bot' problem is... but I absolutely know we have a lot of players that are logging into missions equipped with the bare minimum gears that are easily available. It appears that they just leveled themselves up to Undermountain using boosts and now the player progress has stopped. People are logging these 'mimimally equipped' players that have 'zero progress' into Random missions over and over and over again. As an experienced tank using low IL equipment on purpose... I routinely gain double the damage of all the DPS party members at the RiQ level. About half the players in RiQ are like this... it is especially worse during non-premium times.


    In the harder missions, it takes 1 excellent player to carry 1 bot/farmer/new. In the hardest missions... 1 non-contributing member can lead to a fail. Sometimes players kick one of the good players... failing to identify their weak link. Chemistry, to me, is not really a success issue except in CR, CoDG, and Mad Mage dungeons.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    edited August 2019


    The Intermediate queue also has a completion rate mostly in the 80%+ range currently. Tiamat was the major outlier so we are going to try that in the Advanced queue... Many Coins bank was the next outlier and has a completion rate ~65% which is lower than we'd like. The increased item level requirement should help. But in addition to that we are adding roles back into skirmishes...

    I really didn't want to see roles trickle down.
    And it seems especially unnecessary when by moving Tiamat and increasing the requirements for Heist automatically boosts the completion rate. Heist is still an outlier because it's the only skirmish in Intermediate that benefits from a tank - from what I've read.

    Tanks are not welcome in most of the other low level skirmishes - DL, MoH, Thrones, etc. Unless it's someone's overleveled character, it's dead weight. I'd rather land with some 13k warlock than a 16k tank. You should hear the groans when multiple paladins pop in.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    is Castle Never a queue? Or is this one of those things you HAVE to make a premade for?

    CN is in RIQ. I've run it a number of times by queuing RIQ. If it is something you do what to run and don't have a party, queue directly and let the random fill the party for you.
    Ah, I do RIQs daily and have never seen it. Prophecy of Madness though? I guess people like that more?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User

    Prophecy of Madness though? I guess people like that more?

    Prophecy and Throne are campaign tasks, so people working through the campaign will queue for it. But they do seem to pop excessively. And I would not say that anyone likes them - at least I don't know anyone that will run them outside of randoms.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • poisoncloudpoisoncloud Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    What I wonder is how people finish Tyranny of Dragons now with Tiamat being... what it is. For all other campaigns you don't really have to run dungeons/skirmishes, so you can give up on Heist, PoM or Throne, but Liira's favors are real hard to get other than from Tiamat.
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    Tiamat isn't that hard. People quitting and not reading/understanding/following directions in chat make it hard.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • planestrider#4331 planestrider Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    eolee said:

    If people die to CR mechanism that you lot call "red flames" its because they still dont follow the simple instruction given on the loading screen sometimes "red is bad, it means the enemy is about to launch a powerful attack".

    That was not the problem. Four of that group had already finished the dungeon multiple times, and since most groups don't leave one the time to explain a thing, I knew about the mechanics since at least my Reading is at 120k. :)

    Please consider that others might find it offensive to be told time and again that they are too dumb to play the game in exactly this manner.
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Member Posts: 667 Arc User
    "Linu's" favors can be gained by turning in dragon horde coffers, and you only need 16 or 18 (not sure which) of them these days.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,489 Arc User
    edited August 2019


    Please consider that others might find it offensive to be told time and again that they are too dumb to play the game in exactly this manner.

    People taking offense at being told really is part of the problem.

    That you are given instructions does not mean you are dumb, just that there is a chance that how to do this is knowledge you do not have. Compared to the sea of knowledge in the world we all are insignificant islands. Nobody is born a hero. Not knowing something has nothing to do with being dumb.

    If someone takes the time to provide instructions to a Tiamat run it is because experience shows that most Tiamat runs got people in them with no knowledge of the established working Tiamat tactics. Be grateful when someone is trying to provide directions, it is to the benefit of all.
  • justtester#3228 justtester Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    You're need a lot of these coffers to get even a single Linu's Favor. I'm pretty sure there are many interesting ways to spend your time beside farming Dragon Runs until end of your days.
    This forum is an echo chamber
  • planestrider#4331 planestrider Member Posts: 60 Arc User


    Please consider that others might find it offensive to be told time and again that they are too dumb to play the game in exactly this manner.

    People taking offense at being told really is part of the problem.

    That you are given instructions does not mean you are dumb, just that there is a chance that how to do this is knowledge you do not have. Compared to the sea of knowledge in the world we all are insignificant islands. Nobody is born a hero. Not knowing something has nothing to do with being dumb.

    If someone takes the time to provide instructions to a Tiamat run it is because experience shows that most Tiamat runs got people in them with no knowledge of the established working Tiamat tactics. Be grateful when someone is trying to provide directions, it is to the benefit of all.
    I don't mean ingame instructions, these are quite fine. I answered this on a forum posting; and not the only one of its kind. There are quite some people who answer like this, basically saying that players who obviously understand the game rules (make it through CR if you don't) haven't understood the basic principles of the tutorial, which gives these postings a very haughty attitude. I say postings, not people, because I do not want to get personal. It might help to think about one's own tone before accusing someone else: "People taking offense is the problem". If you're serious about that, please reconsider that it's a form of victim blaming (which sounds terribly over the top for this, but follows exactly the same principles).

    If I misunderstood you and you mean really only instructions, that's a whole different matter. I'm glad about dungeon tutorials on the web actually so I don't slow the group down ingame. :)
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited August 2019


    Please consider that others might find it offensive to be told time and again that they are too dumb to play the game in exactly this manner.

    People taking offense at being told really is part of the problem.

    That you are given instructions does not mean you are dumb, just that there is a chance that how to do this is knowledge you do not have. Compared to the sea of knowledge in the world we all are insignificant islands. Nobody is born a hero. Not knowing something has nothing to do with being dumb.

    If someone takes the time to provide instructions to a Tiamat run it is because experience shows that most Tiamat runs got people in them with no knowledge of the established working Tiamat tactics. Be grateful when someone is trying to provide directions, it is to the benefit of all.
    @eloee told people that "red is bad, it's even written down for you". People taking offense is normal, because his mentality IS the problem. That comment was not helpful or constructive in any way and not even reflecting the real problem with the CR boss fight.

    Edit: I thought that was your comment at first, because you were the one standing up in his defense, but not. However, the point stands, he was toxic, he was called out for it and his mentality is a problem. Helping people what to do in Tiamat or other content is fine.
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 821 Arc User

    Ah, I do RIQs daily and have never seen it. Prophecy of Madness though? I guess people like that more?

    Prophecy and Throne are campaign tasks, so people working through the campaign will queue for it. But they do seem to pop excessively. And I would not say that anyone likes them - at least I don't know anyone that will run them outside of randoms.

    From what I've seen, nobody likes Prophecy - lot of nastiness in that one - group afking, toxic chat, and it's a lot harder on low IL players than Throne. But Throne is one that people actually do go out of their way to queue for.
  • eoleeeolee Member Posts: 264 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    It is not my problem if a group can't bother to communicate between them. Finishing CR before M16 and finishing it after is an other story. Nothing was killing us before aside of falling from the platform in craddle. We could stand in red, who cared? Nobody.

    There's mechanisms in CR that can be found on internet. I believe there is a guide written somewhere aswell describing very well every single attack/mechanism in there. But dieing to Ardor isnt even about knowing anything special aside of "red is bad".
    Accepting that now it can one shot people is the problem those that finished it before M16 have after M16. Yeah Lava is bad. Yeah Ardor AoE can one shot people with low HP because its set amount of dmg. If one feel offended to be told that "red is bad" and how to survive mechanisms, then one shouldnt even bother running some dungeons in this game. Let alone the new trial.

    And red is bad isnt even coming from me, its on loading screen of the game sometimes. It was even the first thing told when entering the Sleeping dragon bridge.


    You want the real problem with CR boss fight? I can explain it again: avoid red zones on the floor. Watch for Ardor flames.
    And if the simple ''red is bad'' advice given by the game itself isnt enough, then look up for a guide on internet.

    @theraxin#5169 My mentality isnt a problem and before you call me toxic, please read again. Why is that complicated for people to accept that there are mechanisms now in the game that will result in a one shot if one doesnt pay attention?
    I am bringing every day almost guildies in LoMM CR and whatnot and explain mechanisms to them.
    But i cant stand the mentality of people saying something is bugged when they feel like staying in RED is ok.
    How is it fine to explain Tiamat and not CR to people? I dont get your logic. And please dont be personal or heated or almost insulting. Tyvm.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    I only do random Qs for the most part. I have never run LoMM, except on solo to check it out. My current character would be 24k if I re-equip for max, even though I dont have a Legendary Mount on her yet or a single R15 item (most at R14). According to my math, my character is running at about 66% of her max DPS potential... so I don't feel its fair to run LoMM yet. I dont like RaQ much (once a day is plenty). I usually get first or second place DPS on any random queue, which is good for a tank. I tank too, but their are few places that need me to explicitly think about that aspect of play. It seems to me like there is a big gap between RiQ and the higher content. Demogorgon is clearly the easiest of the RAQ, but when running PUG you never know what your gonna get. When your the only player doing damage... any RiQ can get pretty annoying and long or fail.

    IL level certainly does not reflect player power. That's a big problem. Power, Crit, and Armor Penetration are the primary stats that matter for DPS, but a lot of new or alt characters are flatlined on their stats. After that equipment choice & skills matter greatly, after that skill and rotation, after that teamwork & anticipation.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 117 Arc User

    Ah, I do RIQs daily and have never seen it. Prophecy of Madness though? I guess people like that more?

    Prophecy and Throne are campaign tasks, so people working through the campaign will queue for it. But they do seem to pop excessively. And I would not say that anyone likes them - at least I don't know anyone that will run them outside of randoms.

    From what I've seen, nobody likes Prophecy - lot of nastiness in that one - group afking, toxic chat, and it's a lot harder on low IL players than Throne. But Throne is one that people actually do go out of their way to queue for.
    I see Prophecy more than Throne though. No idea why. I do have to agree Prophecy is harder than Throne. That madness disable effect is annoying.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
  • poisoncloudpoisoncloud Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    It is a part of RIQ queue but I think it's mostly run by premades now.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    The IL is to low for most of the dungeons. The difference between completion and failure? One or two well geared and played Chars. I did duo CN with a DC, no problem. The DC wanted to run it alone and told me of 4 failed runs, due to a lack in dps and his party members getting oneshoted.

    Due to downscaling a BIS or near BIS char still meets most of the caps for crit/ armor penetration etc. A player with worse gear does not. A RQ run in IQ with one well geared char can be done most of the times, with 2 good players without problems.

    Queing solo I just que for IQ, most of the times. Running LOMM premade (with my best geared char), my toons dps is average, compared to the other players. Running IQ (with any dps char) most players have 1/2 or 1/10 of the dps of my chars and sometimes struggle to compete with well geared DCs (healing, not dps spec), dps wise.

    To be fair, IL is not the only issue. There are well geared players out there, who hit like a wet noodle or cant tank or heal for a dime.
    Post edited by asterotg on
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,489 Arc User
    asterotg said:

    The IL is to low for most of the dungeons. The difference between completion and failure? One or two well geared and played Chars.

    To me it feels like Mod 16 led to a lot of the better geared players quit. It feels like I see considerably fewer well geared chars in the RQs now than before Mod 16. That leads to more bad gear in RQs too.

    On the plus side, that void likely will be filled by new players gearing up over time.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User


    The Intermediate queue also has a completion rate mostly in the 80%+ range currently.

    I suspect that the discrepancy that @noworries#8859 noted between the completion numbers they are seeing and player complaints has a couple of explanations...

    First, there are premade groups vs. true "random" groups. Premade groups might have close to a 100% completion rate for any current content (well, maybe not CR, but that's because it is a buggy mess), while random groups might have a much, much lower completion rate. Is there a way to separate those two in the results?

    Second, there is the simple fact that people that successfully run the content do not post about it ... those who complain are those who fail, which results in a bias....disproportionally many negative posts.


    Hoping for improvements...
  • savvje#5554 savvje Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    The only problem is that ppl actually can advance in UM campain without completion of the other campains..

    No boons, No decent gear, First campain to do is UM..

    Doesnt work like that, and it wont work like that for new players at all..

    Maybe make a new Requirement for eatch campain, like:

    Can't advance to Maze engine unless EE is completed. etc etc.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    The only problem is that ppl actually can advance in UM campain without completion of the other campains..

    No boons, No decent gear, First campain to do is UM..

    Doesnt work like that, and it wont work like that for new players at all..

    Maybe make a new Requirement for eatch campain, like:

    Can't advance to Maze engine unless EE is completed. etc etc.

    They changed the boon system for the purpose of allowing new player to skip campaigns. I am not saying that was a good idea.

    On the other hand, boon is not important for UM at all. Gear is. I completed 6 characters for UM without giving them boon. I assigned their boon after they finished UM because at that moment I would know approx. what their stat distribution would be.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 117 Arc User

    The only problem is that ppl actually can advance in UM campain without completion of the other campains..

    No boons, No decent gear, First campain to do is UM..

    Doesnt work like that, and it wont work like that for new players at all..

    Maybe make a new Requirement for eatch campain, like:

    Can't advance to Maze engine unless EE is completed. etc etc.

    They changed the boon system for the purpose of allowing new player to skip campaigns. I am not saying that was a good idea.

    On the other hand, boon is not important for UM at all. Gear is. I completed 6 characters for UM without giving them boon. I assigned their boon after they finished UM because at that moment I would know approx. what their stat distribution would be.
    Uh, how do you get the boon points if you skip campaigns?

    Also Undermountain requires you to either find a team mate to carry you or solo instanced bosses. You can't just spend coin to advance.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,183 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    The only problem is that ppl actually can advance in UM campain without completion of the other campains..

    No boons, No decent gear, First campain to do is UM..

    Doesnt work like that, and it wont work like that for new players at all..

    Maybe make a new Requirement for eatch campain, like:

    Can't advance to Maze engine unless EE is completed. etc etc.

    They changed the boon system for the purpose of allowing new player to skip campaigns. I am not saying that was a good idea.

    On the other hand, boon is not important for UM at all. Gear is. I completed 6 characters for UM without giving them boon. I assigned their boon after they finished UM because at that moment I would know approx. what their stat distribution would be.
    Uh, how do you get the boon points if you skip campaigns?

    Also Undermountain requires you to either find a team mate to carry you or solo instanced bosses. You can't just spend coin to advance.
    My point was you don't need boon point to complete UM campaign.
    I did not say you don't want it after that (or before that).
    I solo 6 characters (and I was learning their new skills) all the UM campaign quests without assigning boon points. Even my gear was not exactly 'impressive' because some actually were wearing elol set.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 117 Arc User

    The only problem is that ppl actually can advance in UM campain without completion of the other campains..

    No boons, No decent gear, First campain to do is UM..

    Doesnt work like that, and it wont work like that for new players at all..

    Maybe make a new Requirement for eatch campain, like:

    Can't advance to Maze engine unless EE is completed. etc etc.

    They changed the boon system for the purpose of allowing new player to skip campaigns. I am not saying that was a good idea.

    On the other hand, boon is not important for UM at all. Gear is. I completed 6 characters for UM without giving them boon. I assigned their boon after they finished UM because at that moment I would know approx. what their stat distribution would be.
    Uh, how do you get the boon points if you skip campaigns?

    Also Undermountain requires you to either find a team mate to carry you or solo instanced bosses. You can't just spend coin to advance.
    My point was you don't need boon point to complete UM campaign.
    I did not say you don't want it after that (or before that).
    I solo 6 characters (and I was learning their new skills) all the UM campaign quests without assigning boon points. Even my gear was not exactly 'impressive' because some actually were wearing elol set.
    Ah, right, that. I have meh gear, and maybe 10 boons( I don't even know how to start half the campaigns). But I'm working on the Undermountain campaign. Honestly, the only hard part of killing the Aboleth was the army of tiny people stabbing me in the back.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
  • planestrider#4331 planestrider Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    eolee said:

    Why is that complicated for people to accept that there are mechanisms now in the game that will result in a one shot if one doesnt pay attention?

    Please read again yourself, the whole discussion, from start: This was never the point. You assumed that the group did not communicate (wrong), you implied that all five did not understand basic game mechanisms (wrong), you never asked whether you might be on the right track or not. All in all, what remains is that you address someone you do not know with something you only assume, and bring that across in a very unpolite and offensive manner. If you're not aware why it is offensive, please at least try to understand instead of fighting it off.

    More so, this discussion has been leading away from the topic of Strahd one-shotting people not even by the red flame mechanism alone, but even before, who were supposedly - judging by the game declaring 16k (now 17k) as sufficient for CR - able to beat him, which they were clearly not, and most of all, what follows from it, a broken RAQ instance where people quit without even caring whether a group might stand a chance.

    Maybe that's why I'm worrying this topic like a pitbull; in an MMO, players should care at least a little bit teamplay (and thus, others), and acting upon one's own mere assumption over the heads of others, as it happened here just as well as ingame, is a major problem of any MMO that relies on party mechanics. If I want to solo something ny all means, I still got the Witcher series.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    The only problem is that ppl actually can advance in UM campain without completion of the other campains..

    No boons, No decent gear, First campain to do is UM..

    Doesnt work like that, and it wont work like that for new players at all..

    Maybe make a new Requirement for eatch campain, like:

    Can't advance to Maze engine unless EE is completed. etc etc.

    that would be terrible. it would take a person MONTHS to finish boons. you can do most in 30 -50 days if you do them concurrently and use a few genies. I always also use the campaign tokens from my main. it takes me 30 days probably more like 50 for someone not doing that. if you wanted to gate by boons would be better to just say need at least 34 boon points to que for this, or something like that.
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