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Still Pay to Win?

mortmagemortmage Posts: 42Member Arc User
I've been away from Neverwinter since 2015. Back then, I played this game all the time and spent literally thousands of dollars in the Zen store. New goodies would come out that were better than the goodies I already had and I'd spend more. Eventually it sank in that this was a never ending cycle and I was just throwing my money away. I quit in disgust at the apparent greed of the studio. On the plus side, I had a lot of fun playing this game. I'm a little surprised to see that it's still going. Is it still a money grab?

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  • mortmagemortmage Posts: 42Member Arc User
    My hope is that Neverwinter has taken a note from Path of Exile and made this a truly free-to-play game where the game is funded by microtransactions, but the benefits are purely cosmetic.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 4,094Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Pay to win what, exactly?
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • mortmagemortmage Posts: 42Member Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Pay to win what, exactly?

    If by this you mean that there is no ending and therefor no "winning", you have a point. However, more broadly I'm referring to items for sale that give your character an in-game advantage. I'm sure you knew that.
  • nooneatzanooneatza Posts: 64Member Arc User
    This is literally the best thing this game has going for it, it was never pay to win o.o
  • aixis2000aixis2000 Posts: 172Member Arc User
    edited July 29
    ...yes it was never pay 2 win...but no company offers a game for free if there is no clever mechanic implemented to earn more money than they would offer it the normal way: u have to buy it and with or without a monthly fee.
    If u wanted to have just a good time...chatting, doing stuff with friends a.s.o. u never needed to spend a single coin...Cryptic always provided good tools for their community to feel at home in the game...
    On the other hand if u seroius wanted to do pvp or doing the new stuff pve when it was released and maybe wanted to play with the "hippsters" u had to be "BIS" or at least well geared...since the beginning there was always the p2w attitude in the game but Cryptic itsself never forced u direcltly to pay anything...it worked much more subtle...

    Im in the game since 08/2013 and could tell alot of storys like being kicked from every old CN cause all rank 10 was a must have and me with my rank 8 was only allowed to join the big boys a few times for farm the 1. boss (ring farm)
    PvP was even worse...up to stuff like a entrance fee (1Mio AD) to join the ..xy... pvp guild.

    Nowadays...pvp is dead and who cares if u can do lomm this mod or if u have to wait a bit longer before u can carry ur weight in there..if u dont have to be part of the "elitits channels and the premades" ofc...enjoy ur time but dont stress urself with anything...
    Just "my 2 ¢"
  • devilxjkdevilxjk Posts: 63Member Arc User
    edited July 29
    yes, is pay to win.. money->Zen->AD-> buy top equipment/material from AH/zen Store->win,
    p.s. there's a 10% that must be dropped in game.

    to play end game you need 20-22k item level so if you start today you have 2 chance
    A ) pay
    B ) wait 6-10 month

    to be competitive
    10-12 month

    C ) RNG, if you are realy lucky you can revert everything.
    so Goodluck
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,915Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Well, there is not, and never has been anything in the game that is locked behind an absolute paywall - nothing you could not obtain unless you paid actual money. However, the game has always had something like "pay-for-convenience" or "pay-to-speed-up".

    Basically, to get certain things, you either had to spend money or time.

    That's fine...some players had a lot of time, but little money to spend, while others had limited time, but significant disposable income....and the game needs both kinds.
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,860Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Invites based on IL or ranks or big boys, or what not, is a people interaction topic. Don't like how people invite or not invite, make your own groups, make your guild, make your channel.
    Whining about premades, but expect the entirety of human society, and with it every random person met, to be generous, altruistic, and without desires is... Naive and entitled..

    I do not ask anyone for 'permission' to join groups, I've made friends, and we went to CN.

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  • tribbulatertribbulater Posts: 122Member Arc User
    devilxjk said:

    adinosii said:

    Well, there is not, and never has been anything in the game that is locked behind an absolute paywall - nothing you could not obtain unless you paid actual money. However, the game has always had something like "pay-for-convenience" or "pay-to-speed-up".

    Basically, to get certain things, you either had to spend money or time.

    That's fine...some players had a lot of time, but little money to spend, while others had limited time, but significant disposable income....and the game needs both kinds.

    "pay-for-convenience" or "pay-to-speed-up" is pay to win

    This is the usual cry of people who don't want anyone else to have anything they don't have.

    First, unless you are PvPing, there isn't even a 'win' to be had. And almost nobody PvPs.

    Second, "I need this for end-game" is a choice. There is nothing you can buy from the Zen store that makes you end-game capable. The most you can buy is things you could earn from play anyway. So as said, "pay to level/gear up faster". That is merely a sign of "I'm impatient", or "I actually want to support the company that provides a product I enjoy", not pay to win.

    Third, most games have to add things to help speed up or power up your character development... because players are mostly locked into this idea that they "have to have the best" in order to "be competitive", even when the game is not a directly competitive game. Players pay for boosts because boosting their char is their reason for playing.

    Fourth, if someone is tossing tons of money at a game, then calling the game "disgustingly greedy" for offering them things they wanted to buy... that someone needs to look at their own motivations and spending habits. The latest and best shinies always come from playing the newest content anyway, so heaven knows what he though he was buying in the Zen store.
  • devilxjkdevilxjk Posts: 63Member Arc User
    i dont think so, however if you like the name buy to speed...it's ok
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 219Member Arc User
    edited July 29
    devilxjk said:



    "pay-for-convenience" or "pay-to-speed-up" is pay to win

    I think you missed that part where F2P does not literally mean you are provided with an absolutely free game and the servers are maintained for altruism's sake.

    Pay-for-convenience is not P2W and does not push you to pay unless it artifically generates inconvenience for you to skip. Which this game does not really and most of the stuff can be provided for free. Like, injury kits, Aurora's whole realm catalog to summon merchant and scrolls to teleport (the last is sucks tho, but you can just walk).

    "Pay-to-speed-up" just means you can spend money for more AD. As of this mod you cannot just buy yourself the best weapon set and the best gear to wear. While you can spend a ton of money to improve, that is unnecessary and most of the people I run lomm with never done in their life.

    Now the only P2W aspect are the wards, the insignia box and the legendary mounts in the lootbox lockbox. Gladly, now there is a pretty good alternative for the ward (as of this summer event) and the ward market on the AH is always filled with offers, so it does not really generate an issue for F2P people. The brutality insignias are kind of the best where you cannot put dominance and only can be got by paying (and good RNG rolling) players, who can set it's price. But it's not the end of the world. And the legendary mounts give quite a powerjump and only realistically can be got for those who buy their keys. This is the most P2W you can get in this game as of this mod. Buy a legendary mount for 10k stat and 110% speed and/or a combat power which helps and unlock a pretty significant insignia effect.

    And as a sidenote, if your daily AD generation is capped on 100k, you just do something wrong. There is more than 1 way to generate 2-3 times more than that a day in average, but most easily the DR lairs.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
    edited July 29
    mortmage said:

    greywynd said:

    Pay to win what, exactly?

    If by this you mean that there is no ending and therefor no "winning", you have a point. However, more broadly I'm referring to items for sale that give your character an in-game advantage. I'm sure you knew that.
    NWO PVP is pay to win game if you buy zen to sell for AD to buy items that may give you a slight advantage. If you play PVE content its not pay to win but pay to advance your character. NWO PVP IMO is horrible so unless you want to play PVP NWO is not P2W it is pay to advance and yes it still exist; it is how the company survived as new player come into the game hoping to catch up to the vets.
  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,361Member Arc User
    Pay to win implies there is no other option available to you if you want to...."win". There are options therefore quit crying.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 4,094Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User



    And as a sidenote, if your daily AD generation is capped on 100k, you just do something wrong. There is more than 1 way to generate 2-3 times more than that a day in average, but most easily the DR lairs.

    eh, no. Farming something to sell in the AH to increase your personal AD stockpile doesn't generate AD. I just moves AD that someone else generated to your account.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • auron#6793 auron Posts: 256Member Arc User
    edited July 29
    it's only P2W if you are impatient. I have not payed a cent to this game since they removed the foundry nor will i until they get there act together but back on topic, I haven't noticed it that hard for non cashers to get decent power or gear in this game, most of the stuff in the zen store is just fluff. If you are patient and save your AD you can buy most stuff in the AH or get gear with seals. it just takes time.

    I personaly don'tt have any intrest in pvp myself though. I don't like killing players for one thing and most of the time it's just not worth it.
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  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,354Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited July 29
    It was never pay to win for me and it is still not. I guess you can pay to win/speed up if you choose to (and thank you for your contribution) but you don't have to pay to win.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Posts: 371Member Arc User
    edited July 30
    adinosii said:

    devilxjk said:

    "pay-for-convenience" or "pay-to-speed-up" is pay to win

    No. There is a very significant difference, There are games where you just cannot progress beyond a certain point, or obtain the best gar unless you pay actual money. Those games are P2W. NWO isn't - it falls in the zone between absolute P2W games one one hand and F2P games where you cannot pay for anything but cosmetic items and other fluff that has zero effect on performance.
    I agree. Pay for convenience, speed, and novelty are the way to go gain income for an MMO. Also, either a flat purchase fee up front or a low-cost VIP benefit system. THis game has all that.

    Alternately, there are games in which you can purchase high grade consumables using real money that give you the competitive ability to win versus those without them. There are pirate games out there in which you pay $100 a month to make your ships faster than someone with no money. That is more of a pay to win game. The closest this game has to it is Legendary Mounts.. but they can be won with luck, or saved for and purchased within six months or less of dedicated daily playing. Even then, a Legendary Mount can be worse than a purple mount (pending its bonuses), but it can also give you an edge. If there was nothing to work for and enjoy accomplishing or obtaining ... the game would get boring.
  • regenerderegenerde Posts: 2,397Member Arc User
    devilxjk said:


    ...
    to play end game you need 20-22k item level so if you start today you have 2 chance
    A ) pay
    B ) wait 6-10 month
    ...

    ... or simply play the game for a few weeks and reach 18-20k IL on your own, then join a decent guild and be within "end game" IL range. These days you neither have to use real money or wait months to get your character to a higher IL.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,400Member Arc User
    adinosii said:

    devilxjk said:

    "pay-for-convenience" or "pay-to-speed-up" is pay to win

    No. There is a very significant difference, There are games where you just cannot progress beyond a certain point, or obtain the best gar unless you pay actual money. Those games are P2W. NWO isn't - it falls in the zone between absolute P2W games one one hand and F2P games where you cannot pay for anything but cosmetic items and other fluff that has zero effect on performance.
    Ran MSVA recently?
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 219Member Arc User
    greywynd said:



    And as a sidenote, if your daily AD generation is capped on 100k, you just do something wrong. There is more than 1 way to generate 2-3 times more than that a day in average, but most easily the DR lairs.

    eh, no. Farming something to sell in the AH to increase your personal AD stockpile doesn't generate AD. I just moves AD that someone else generated to your account.
    Yeah, but... what's your point? It's revenue for you.
  • tom#6998 tom Posts: 780Member Arc User

    adinosii said:

    devilxjk said:

    "pay-for-convenience" or "pay-to-speed-up" is pay to win

    No. There is a very significant difference, There are games where you just cannot progress beyond a certain point, or obtain the best gar unless you pay actual money. Those games are P2W. NWO isn't - it falls in the zone between absolute P2W games one one hand and F2P games where you cannot pay for anything but cosmetic items and other fluff that has zero effect on performance.
    Ran MSVA recently?
    Ran cloak tower recently?
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 1,031Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    mortmage said:

    I've been away from Neverwinter since 2015. Back then, I played this game all the time and spent literally thousands of dollars in the Zen store. New goodies would come out that were better than the goodies I already had and I'd spend more. Eventually it sank in that this was a never ending cycle and I was just throwing my money away. I quit in disgust at the apparent greed of the studio. On the plus side, I had a lot of fun playing this game. I'm a little surprised to see that it's still going. Is it still a money grab?

    Wow. So much wrong here.
    As others have said...
    Spending thousands on zen will make Cryptic happy, but do very little to make you "win" as BiS gear cannot be bought with zen or AD.
    "New goodies" making old obsolete is part of MMO life.
    "never ending cycle" is part of MMo life. Name a single MMO that isn't like that.
    Cryptic has made many questionable decisions worthy of criticism... nothing in this post is one of them.
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  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Posts: 371Member Arc User
    edited July 31
    I'd like to point out that every single MMO lies on a scale... a purchasing spectrum:

    NO ADVANTAGES availabe .....--> to LIGHT advantages at MODERATE cost... --> to EXTREME advantages availabe at HIGH cost.


    If the game is on the left.. they are giving you a service for free, or you are paying a steady subscription

    If the game is near the middle, the game is making its money from non-free players trying to save development time or gain a small advantage/luxury quickly.

    If the game is toward the right... the Whales rule the game & while it could still be fun.. stats and competitions mean nothing.

    All three types are viable options. Paying players avoid the far right unless they have bottomless wallets or dont care if they excel or not. Free players avoid the far right and the subscriptions (left). The middle ground is never perfect, but satisfies the most players in order to fund game development. IMO... NWO is in the middle zone.
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