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Official M16: Barbarian Feedback

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  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    edited April 16

    Hi asterdhal, I just had a couple things to mention, most of which is covered but I wanted to reiterate.



    I love the idea of blood spilled but it’s literally killing us in its current form. So umm maybe cap the damage at 50% current health?



    Also why were we changed to have 3 defensive slots on companions. I thought 2 o and 2 d seemed balanced.



    We only have 5 feat columns, but some of the choices seem terrible. The first and 4th column specifically under Blademaster. As a design goal, I would much rather play a game that gives me two awesome choices. Please consider making one choice aoe and one single target. Or just make them both desirable.



    Lastly. A level 80 feat unlock that ends up stunning you during combat? Really? I love trade offs, but they have to be fun. And feats shouldn’t get you killed. And the other choice lowers our damage by 5% no matter what? So I get stunned and possibly die or I just lose damage and play it safe? You’re encouraging people to simply not choose a feat. They should be excited to unlock that feat, not indifferent.



    Thank you btw for all your hard work. Your efforts give us old timers hope.

    Hi Patcherrkm, thanks for checking out the changes on preview and sending your feedback. I've significantly lowered the amount of damage that can be dealt to you when you choose the Bloodspiller feat. Finally, although the feat which increases the frequency with which Battlerage can be used does slightly decrease the bonus damage of the mechanic, you can use it significantly more often, resulting in an overall damage increase.

    With Escalating Rage, the design goal was to offer a high risk style of gameplay that captured the feeling of uncontrollable rage that the Barbarian has to manage. That being said, I understand risk-reward style mechanics can be very unpopular, so that feat may very well change.
    Post edited by asterdahl on
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Bloodletter/Bloodspiller healing/Dmg effect is effected by enchantment dmg in two different ways.
    Healing effect if Vorpal hits first
    image

    Healing effect if Bloodletter hits first
    image

    Dmg effect with Bloodspiller with WE's
    image

    Thank you for the report, I will look into a fix for this issue ASAP.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    While I'm basically on-board with the change to the way our EHP is weighted, the reduction in total stamina would seem to create more pressure for abilities that restore stamina... Is that something you'd consider adding to any of our at-wills?

    It's certainly something that I have considered. There is a competing desire both to ensure that all tanks are equally viable and that each tank plays differently. Since both other tank classes have access to a stamina restoring at-will, I understand the desire. At the moment, I feel that all three tanks are in a reasonably good place. That being said, it's something I will be closely monitoring and adjusting immediately following Module 16's launch and into the future.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    kopros666 said:

    Relentless Slash At-Will doesn't perform its full animation when attacking multiple enemies and it continuously resets.

    I apologize for the egregious animation issues that were occurring over the last few weeks on preview. We identified a number of longstanding animation and server syncing issues that have been in the engine since Neverwinter's launch. Many of these issues caused at-wills of lower or higher speeds to deal more or less damage than expected.

    Some new code was written to compensate for these issues, but we've been ironing out the kinks as a result. We believe most of these issues are now resolved, but please continue to report any that you observe. We appreciate it!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    drumon88 said:

    I’ve done it. If I wasn’t working so hard in real life I would. I’ll see if one of my guild mates will do it for me. Objectively though if you can’t see the problems in his rotation, then you are still playing a gwf, not a barb.

    So you can't provide us with your ACT log, fine, but why don't you just tell us what rotations are you using? The reason I'm asking is that I came up, after testing various powers, with exaclty the same rotations @rjc9000 used. HD, AS, NsF (to proc Trample the Fallen) on mobs, HD, Frenzy, IBS (potentially augmented Bloodletter if it doesn't kill you) on bosses. I don't know what you mean by playing a gwf, not a barb but the rotations have a rationale behind them, they're not just copied from mod 15. NdF for example is not something you'd use on live, ever, but now we have fewer self buffs and we have to use what we have and Trample the Fallen looks promising.

    Just finished playing with my Barbarian the last couple of days:

    1. DPS levels are "meh", significantly lower than on the live server. Seems to be a theme with most of my characters. A slight bump of about 10-15% would make it more palatable for current players.

    2. Survivability is down the toilet. "Battle Rage" provides almost no damage mitigation vs what we have now on live. Considering the class still has no dodge mechanic, this change makes no sense. It also seems to take a lot more effort to get battle rage up to 50%, vs what we have on the live server - why?

    3. The animations for several of the new at-wills feel very clunky, almost to the point of being unusable.

    4. Daggers has been nerfed to the point it will never be used. The new Axestorm, or whatever it's called, will probably take its place, which begs the question - why nerf the original power, then create a new redundant power that most players will choose instead?

    1. that's a balance issue. Each role in each class should be equally palatable to players, leaving the choice to personal taste. If they're moving in the direction I'm thinking, "old" dungeons should keep both their challenging and rewarding value in the future. That is, never in the future ToNG will become the new CN, a dungeon that used the hardest and now you can solo. The reason why tier 1 and tier 2 epic dungeons have no rewards worth mentioning is just because they have become too easy mod after mod. So I picture a future where differences in classes can make different classes the best option for different dungeons, with a wide range of rewarding dungeons to choose from. I.e. there won't be the need to nerf ToNG reward since it won't become exceedingly easy.

    2. yes - I've mentioned this alot. It affects also your DPS and your playstyle. I've always liked the 'in your face' GWF approach to fights. A char that keeps avoiding every attack, hits from the distance, or retreats immediately after an attack, it's not my GWF.

    3. yes - What's worse, they prevent you from sprinting (or maybe doing anything, but usually you commit to a power, a red area appears under your feet, you press shift and nothing happens for just too long)

    4. well actually HDs are quite useful and currently account for a lot of the DPS output of a barb. See previous posts.

    I haven't tested the last patch much tho, so my info could be outdated.


    1. Keeping old dungeons relevant is all well and good, assuming they update the rewards. (which I doubt ever happens) This could have just as easily been done with a tarot card system like they did with Barovia hunts, without ever touching the classes.
    Or they could have implemented a difficulty level system, like they did in City of Heroes.

    What I do have an issue with is when this impacts my performance in solo content. Solo content should very rarely be fatal to anyone - this was tried in games like Wildstar - and it always fails.

    4. I will try HDs again, but in my first attempt the damage felt almost non-existant.
    Hidden Daggers is not used for the damage from Hidden Daggers, it's used for the 200 bonus magnitude to another power (IE, it adds ~50% additional damage to IBS/Bloodletter+Bloodspiller, or ~100% damage to Axestorm). But it's in direct opposition to Asterdahl's claims of "in mod 15 GWF required too much table-setting to do damage" as now before EVERY big encounter power you have to wait for HD to come off cooldown, or it's basically useless, you HAVE to run around like a chicken with your head cut off to not just straight up get splattered in melee, and if anything you have to micromanage the now much shorter list of and shorter duration buffs and debuffs to be worth a lick as a DPS class. I really don't know what they were thinking when they came up with this as it's literally the POLAR OPPOSITE of what Asterdahl stated was the intent.
    This issue should be alleviated by recent fixes and adjustments to Hidden Daggers, which will simply allow you to gain the benefit from Surprise Attack with any at-will.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    With the recent changes barb is now getting smashed in dps by both rangers and wizards. They are putting out more than double the dps. Testing is being done with 24k IL characters. Multiple builds and rotations tested

    There will be DPS adjustments both for the launch build and the builds immediately following launch. Myself and Noworries have been making continual adjustments to all of the classes, and we can only make so many adjustments at a given time, so the classes are moving in cycles, but we won't neglect any class that is falling short, even if that means adjustments in our first or second week builds.

    The Lair of the Mad Mage won't be accessible immediately, so there will be opportunities for adjustments to go in post launch if necessary to ensure that there's a fairly level playing field when the dungeon becomes available.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    I truly belief no on from the dev team plays a dungoen like tong or cradle or even eLoL on the PTR. And i truly believe the devs give a hamster about how the com struggles in the dungeons.

    We have had multiple teams continually playing dungeons and trials internally on all of the builds that have gone to preview, as well as various incremental builds that have not gone to preview. Admittedly, we can't actually play all of the content on every build, and sometimes we pushed builds to preview knowing that some content or another was broken, so that testing could continue in other areas, but we are absolutely playing endgame content.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    Hey everyone! During our livestream today some of you were asking if I was still alive due to my sluggish responses recently and I just wanted to update you all that I am still very much alive, but that I have been devoting all of the evening time I had dedicated to replying to these threads to getting everything locked down ahead of our internal gold deadline so that our QA department has sufficient time to hammer on things ahead of launch. I have been skimming through posts as much as possible and hope to square away some time soon to answer more questions.

    In the meantime, I'd like to apologize for how quiet I've been and let you all know that I absolutely have been reading, will continue to read, and will make the time to respond to your feedback and questions. I won't forget about them.


    so... you "finished" your job with feats/class features, etc, that means, the barbarian concept? for now, everthing will be (maybe) work with values?

    just to know... maybe we are wasting pages (and civility between us) with uselles feedbacks based on
    unrealistic expectations.

    Your feedback is far from useless, even if a feat doesn't change for the launch of Module 16, it may change mid module or at the start of Module 17. I am aware that there are some very unpopular feats on the Barbarian right now. Right now, as we are very close to launch my main focus is on ensuring that the Blademaster is a competitive DPS and the Sentinel is a competitive tank.

    I know that it is frustrating that a change may not come to the feat you were hoping to see altered immediately, but I do still read and appreciate the feedback, even the negative feedback, and there will continue to be adjustments in the future.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer

    The dev responsible for barb is busy bug fixing, he is also responsible for more classes, this changes are not final and they can (and most likely will) be changed even after the release.

    when criticized about the new feats, he claimed that internally he and other devs were having fun with the current changes. so no... this changes can be definitive,varying values ​​like current magnitude/damage bonus. that is why we should know about the real expectatives about that class.

    that means, some REAL work will done to make that class looks like, i dont know, a barbarian or i can just wait that dumb version of gwf will do more damage than now after some buffs... but still dumb?

    To be clear, when I said that some of our developers had been having fun with certain feats, that wasn't meant to dismiss any feedback to the contrary. We have had fun with plenty of things that have not made it into the game, or that we have realized players do not enjoy, and have cut or adjusted after they have hit preview or even shipped into the live game.

    Please also note that, that while this is not always the case, often times what anyone finds fun as the player of a DPS class is related to the numerical outcome. Something can be fun but ineffective, and it can be difficult to see that. Of course it's possible to separate the two, and I do see plenty of feedback with that in mind, but sometimes all that needs to happen to make a power enjoyable to use is to make it competitive.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Posts: 1,195 Member, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer
    davidmoki said:

    Hi @asterdahl , you said this on the cleric threat:
    "keep in mind that players can dodge out and back in without losing out on a significant amount of healing."
    I just wanna remind you that Blade master doesn't have Iframes on the dodge, we used to have additional hp to compensate it, but you took that away. so... Could you give us Iframes? or the same overpower class mechanic called Unstoppable that you gave Sentinel while you didn't give us anything? or you know... our additional hp back? The main question is... Could Blade master get some love, please? :'(

    Adding immunity frames to the start of sprint is something I have absolutely been considering.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    > @asterdahl said:
    >
    > The Lair of the Mad Mage won't be accessible immediately, so there will be opportunities for adjustments to go in post launch if necessary to ensure that there's a fairly level playing field when the dungeon becomes available.

    Do you mean LotMM will not be in the module at launch?

    Because I’ll have 2 toons ready for it (at least) by the end of the first week after launch.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • drumon88drumon88 Posts: 142Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    davidmoki said:

    Hi @asterdahl , you said this on the cleric threat:
    "keep in mind that players can dodge out and back in without losing out on a significant amount of healing."
    I just wanna remind you that Blade master doesn't have Iframes on the dodge, we used to have additional hp to compensate it, but you took that away. so... Could you give us Iframes? or the same overpower class mechanic called Unstoppable that you gave Sentinel while you didn't give us anything? or you know... our additional hp back? The main question is... Could Blade master get some love, please? :'(

    Adding immunity frames to the start of sprint is something I have absolutely been considering.
    We're currently the only non-tank class that doesn't have them. In mod15 we got away with it because of high defense, temp health, abusing Shepherd's Devotion, and bonus damage mitigation while sprinting but ALL OF THAT WENT AWAY. It's absolutely necessary because right now we have abysmal time on target because we have to run so far away from the fight so frequently just to stay alive.

  • drumon88drumon88 Posts: 142Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    drumon88 said:

    I’ve done it. If I wasn’t working so hard in real life I would. I’ll see if one of my guild mates will do it for me. Objectively though if you can’t see the problems in his rotation, then you are still playing a gwf, not a barb.

    So you can't provide us with your ACT log, fine, but why don't you just tell us what rotations are you using? The reason I'm asking is that I came up, after testing various powers, with exaclty the same rotations @rjc9000 used. HD, AS, NsF (to proc Trample the Fallen) on mobs, HD, Frenzy, IBS (potentially augmented Bloodletter if it doesn't kill you) on bosses. I don't know what you mean by playing a gwf, not a barb but the rotations have a rationale behind them, they're not just copied from mod 15. NdF for example is not something you'd use on live, ever, but now we have fewer self buffs and we have to use what we have and Trample the Fallen looks promising.

    Just finished playing with my Barbarian the last couple of days:

    1. DPS levels are "meh", significantly lower than on the live server. Seems to be a theme with most of my characters. A slight bump of about 10-15% would make it more palatable for current players.

    2. Survivability is down the toilet. "Battle Rage" provides almost no damage mitigation vs what we have now on live. Considering the class still has no dodge mechanic, this change makes no sense. It also seems to take a lot more effort to get battle rage up to 50%, vs what we have on the live server - why?

    3. The animations for several of the new at-wills feel very clunky, almost to the point of being unusable.

    4. Daggers has been nerfed to the point it will never be used. The new Axestorm, or whatever it's called, will probably take its place, which begs the question - why nerf the original power, then create a new redundant power that most players will choose instead?

    1. that's a balance issue. Each role in each class should be equally palatable to players, leaving the choice to personal taste. If they're moving in the direction I'm thinking, "old" dungeons should keep both their challenging and rewarding value in the future. That is, never in the future ToNG will become the new CN, a dungeon that used the hardest and now you can solo. The reason why tier 1 and tier 2 epic dungeons have no rewards worth mentioning is just because they have become too easy mod after mod. So I picture a future where differences in classes can make different classes the best option for different dungeons, with a wide range of rewarding dungeons to choose from. I.e. there won't be the need to nerf ToNG reward since it won't become exceedingly easy.

    2. yes - I've mentioned this alot. It affects also your DPS and your playstyle. I've always liked the 'in your face' GWF approach to fights. A char that keeps avoiding every attack, hits from the distance, or retreats immediately after an attack, it's not my GWF.

    3. yes - What's worse, they prevent you from sprinting (or maybe doing anything, but usually you commit to a power, a red area appears under your feet, you press shift and nothing happens for just too long)

    4. well actually HDs are quite useful and currently account for a lot of the DPS output of a barb. See previous posts.

    I haven't tested the last patch much tho, so my info could be outdated.


    1. Keeping old dungeons relevant is all well and good, assuming they update the rewards. (which I doubt ever happens) This could have just as easily been done with a tarot card system like they did with Barovia hunts, without ever touching the classes.
    Or they could have implemented a difficulty level system, like they did in City of Heroes.

    What I do have an issue with is when this impacts my performance in solo content. Solo content should very rarely be fatal to anyone - this was tried in games like Wildstar - and it always fails.

    4. I will try HDs again, but in my first attempt the damage felt almost non-existant.
    Hidden Daggers is not used for the damage from Hidden Daggers, it's used for the 200 bonus magnitude to another power (IE, it adds ~50% additional damage to IBS/Bloodletter+Bloodspiller, or ~100% damage to Axestorm). But it's in direct opposition to Asterdahl's claims of "in mod 15 GWF required too much table-setting to do damage" as now before EVERY big encounter power you have to wait for HD to come off cooldown, or it's basically useless, you HAVE to run around like a chicken with your head cut off to not just straight up get splattered in melee, and if anything you have to micromanage the now much shorter list of and shorter duration buffs and debuffs to be worth a lick as a DPS class. I really don't know what they were thinking when they came up with this as it's literally the POLAR OPPOSITE of what Asterdahl stated was the intent.
    This issue should be alleviated by recent fixes and adjustments to Hidden Daggers, which will simply allow you to gain the benefit from Surprise Attack with any at-will.
    Is this something that's supposed to be in the current preview build? Because right now, the HD buff is consumed by the next attack whether it's a big-damage encounter or a low-damage at-will. And still effects only a single attack (and still seems to have issues working properly with weapon enchants, as it will add its magnitude to the sub-1k-dmg weapon enchant instead of the 100k dmg IBS/Bloodletter if the weapon enchant procs before the attack damage is calculated). This STILL requires a lot of "table setting" in that you
    1. Have to wait for HD to be off cooldown before you use something big, like Axestorm for AoE or IBS/feated Bloodletter
    2. Need to stop attacking with at-wills so you don't accidentally use it on a low damage power and waste it

    Group combat still feels janky for barbs as well since we are forced to spend so much time running around trying to stay out of red because we have low mitigation and no actual dodge. I'm also concerned about the very low in-combat stamina regen (and the significant delay from the time we stop sprinting to the time it starts regenning at all that isn't present on any other class), 10 seconds into any fight in group content and my barb is basically permanently out of stamina which means I can't get out of red.
  • psonnwroth#9192 psonnwroth Posts: 10Member Arc User
    I wanted a better understanding of what was actually going on, so I wrote a parser for the CombatLog.log file and started gathering facts.


    My GWF in Mod 15 (live) has a DPS of 50,000 on average with an IL of about 12,000.


    As a Barbarian in Mod 16 with an IL of about 15,000 and now level 73 my average DPS is 2,500. That's 1/20th of what it was. Hahaha, except against a target dummy when it jumps to 36,000. Weird, right? I am unable to solo content I could as a newly minted level 70 in Dread Ring in earlier mods (with difficulty). I made 6 attempts against Jawbone in the Dread Forge without success today. My pet can take more than twice as much damage as I can. My question is this: Is this Mod intended to end solo play completely? That is how it looks right now, at least for the Barbarian. I haven't run other classes yet to see how they compare, but my understanding is that the Barbarian is supposed to be a strong DPS as a Weapon Master. I had 8 Rotters jump me and knock me off my mount, which hasn't happened in a very long time, but what really gets me is that 6 of 8 had a higher DPS than my Barbie AND they killed me! Not cool at all! Even Celedaine in Sharandar is a close call AND his DPS exceeds mine by more than double. I'm a mid-level 70 with good gear. I should easily kick his... well... backside! I mean we're talking level 64-66 stuff. I even died protecting the portal. Pretty pathetic and very discouraging. My main is essentially useless now and my game play style is all but extinct. The only reason I do that content is for the weekly AD. I'm not a very happy camper at the moment.


    I sometimes team up with a Paladin and we made a great team, but I understand that will no longer be the case as her main's class has been nerfed all to h-e-double-hockey-sticks as well and won't be able to share power as before. Really uncool. She has already stopped playing.

  • grimzsabergrimzsaber Posts: 22Member Arc User
    edited April 16
    I spent hours on the test server and youtube last night, learning about the new builds, maxing out stats to increase my damage etc. and i have to say i am seriously disappointed with barbi, i have spent years building up my gwf to a play style i enjoy, not to mention 100's of $. and its all gone. i cant even solo the first mobs in teurn on a barbi with 17k ilvl .. a dungeon which i can solo in mod 15. and as previously mentioned, the feat choices are ridiculous, it feels so limited and useless, im forced to choose skills i dont want to use because its the only skill boosted by that feat. in the end it might be better to just not use feats at all. being so close to release, i was expecting it would be well balanced and id be able to test out some content before release, but it was ridiculous. dying every few seconds, running like a headless chicken waiting for skills to cool down just so i can get a little healing in. PLEASE tell me this isnt what its going to be like?? i even bought delvers pack but at this rate, i might just quit as i cant see myself doing ALL the campaigns and getting all the pets, and all the mounts on a new class, just so i can keep playing.

    a strong recommendation. please create a token that allows for class change and provide everyone who created an account before mod 16 with a free class change token, at least give us some sort of saving grace so i dont have to give up on a game i love.
  • psonnwroth#9192 psonnwroth Posts: 10Member Arc User
    I went back to a loadout from when I was still a pretty new level 70 character. I had just gotten my first decent armor and all brand new artifacts, but had not gotten artifact weapons yet. I had earned my new armor by farming Demon Heroic Encounters for rings and dungeons for AD that I used to buy the League Armor from the auction house. None of the Dread Ring content is playable any more with that loadout. I got killed by Rotters in seconds and the same with the demons. Real level 70 content is unplayable. Period. I have decided Barbie is the perfect name for this class now because they are definitely *ussies now. I had one of the original Barbarian characters in AD&D version 2 way back in 1981 and even with the armor limitations they were tough and definitely hit hard. Barbie is an embarrassment. If the other classes are as nerfed as Barbie is, solo game play is dead. WTF was the aim here? A 5-person crew of new lvl 70 players will be destroyed by the first mob they meet in real lvl 70 content before they know what happened. Is that fun? H3ll no. It sucks. End gamers may get more enjoyment from content that is not meant for them, but those that it is meant for will be hating life. When I cannot solo everything in Dread Ring and every leveling dungeon with my main in full regalia, it's messed up. This is messed up.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User

    @fenrir4life Please read my post more carefully before citing my comment and remember that not everyone who writes here has deep knowledge about the English language and that the damn translator does not always transcribe the way I think, even though I review before posting. In the section on Companions I cite examples of companion combos that the Barbarians will not be able to use due to Slots limitation and how this will offset the damage of the class in relation to others.

    You also don't speak for those who have been waiting for five years to be able to tank on a sentinel.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    davidmoki said:

    Hi @asterdahl , you said this on the cleric threat:
    "keep in mind that players can dodge out and back in without losing out on a significant amount of healing."
    I just wanna remind you that Blade master doesn't have Iframes on the dodge, we used to have additional hp to compensate it, but you took that away. so... Could you give us Iframes? or the same overpower class mechanic called Unstoppable that you gave Sentinel while you didn't give us anything? or you know... our additional hp back? The main question is... Could Blade master get some love, please? :'(

    Adding immunity frames to the start of sprint is something I have absolutely been considering.
    Might I suggest opening Sprint with a lunge, to justify the iframes and represent a sudden burst of acceleration?
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    edited April 17
    @asterdahl I did some testing at level 70 in IWD today and in particular I slotted Sentinel's Slash to see how that would work, and in so doing I noticed something in particular about this skill. While you are holding it to build the charge/block it just doesn't build Rage. So not only is it clunky, it hinders use of a core class feature!

    Perhaps just swapping the order of the last 2 at-wills might be a suitable temporary solution as then the power that has built in aggro is immediately available to level 70 toons.


    Oh and while still 70 I can solo the HEs in IWD, will see what happens when I hit 71 and scaling kicks in...
    Post edited by obsidiancran3 on
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • onodrainonodrain Posts: 303Member Arc User

    I spent hours on the test server and youtube last night, learning about the new builds, maxing out stats to increase my damage etc. and i have to say i am seriously disappointed with barbi, i have spent years building up my gwf to a play style i enjoy, not to mention 100's of $. and its all gone. i cant even solo the first mobs in teurn on a barbi with 17k ilvl .. a dungeon which i can solo in mod 15. and as previously mentioned, the feat choices are ridiculous, it feels so limited and useless, im forced to choose skills i dont want to use because its the only skill boosted by that feat. in the end it might be better to just not use feats at all. being so close to release, i was expecting it would be well balanced and id be able to test out some content before release, but it was ridiculous. dying every few seconds, running like a headless chicken waiting for skills to cool down just so i can get a little healing in. PLEASE tell me this isnt what its going to be like?? i even bought delvers pack but at this rate, i might just quit as i cant see myself doing ALL the campaigns and getting all the pets, and all the mounts on a new class, just so i can keep playing.

    a strong recommendation. please create a token that allows for class change and provide everyone who created an account before mod 16 with a free class change token, at least give us some sort of saving grace so i dont have to give up on a game i love.

    This game makes is easy to level another character. The enchantment/rune trade in makes it easy to reconfigure characters and move from one character to another. So...it is simple to change your characters if you wish. Very simple.

    It is ridiculously easy to purchase tokens to complete the campaigns if you choose not to run them on another character.

    This game is super easy to upgrade compared to other games. And if you learn a little about the game, you can easily do it for free. No $$ needed...just a little reading to learn how the economy works.

    Hard would be the early MMO's. Like in EQ trying to get your epic weapon in the early days.
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Posts: 208Member Arc User
    edited April 17
    onodrain said:

    I spent hours on the test server and youtube last night, learning about the new builds, maxing out stats to increase my damage etc. and i have to say i am seriously disappointed with barbi, i have spent years building up my gwf to a play style i enjoy, not to mention 100's of $. and its all gone. i cant even solo the first mobs in teurn on a barbi with 17k ilvl .. a dungeon which i can solo in mod 15. and as previously mentioned, the feat choices are ridiculous, it feels so limited and useless, im forced to choose skills i dont want to use because its the only skill boosted by that feat. in the end it might be better to just not use feats at all. being so close to release, i was expecting it would be well balanced and id be able to test out some content before release, but it was ridiculous. dying every few seconds, running like a headless chicken waiting for skills to cool down just so i can get a little healing in. PLEASE tell me this isnt what its going to be like?? i even bought delvers pack but at this rate, i might just quit as i cant see myself doing ALL the campaigns and getting all the pets, and all the mounts on a new class, just so i can keep playing.

    a strong recommendation. please create a token that allows for class change and provide everyone who created an account before mod 16 with a free class change token, at least give us some sort of saving grace so i dont have to give up on a game i love.

    This game makes is easy to level another character. The enchantment/rune trade in makes it easy to reconfigure characters and move from one character to another. So...it is simple to change your characters if you wish. Very simple.

    It is ridiculously easy to purchase tokens to complete the campaigns if you choose not to run them on another character.

    This game is super easy to upgrade compared to other games. And if you learn a little about the game, you can easily do it for free. No $$ needed...just a little reading to learn how the economy works.

    Hard would be the early MMO's. Like in EQ trying to get your epic weapon in the early days.
    BUT in 6.x days all those upgrades lose a significant portion of their value and the incentive for character progression almost goes away. You can play without boons and feats and rank 15 enchants and not really notice a significant difference. Player investment is going to be devalued. That seems to be the point you missed.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    Player investment is devalued all the time, or are you still using your Elemental Weapons and Lostmauth set?

    If you have invested heavily you’re still going to have a better, and easier, time in 16 than if you haven’t.

    The gap between “invested heavily” and “just starting” is much reduced, which is good for the game. But it still exists.

    That’s before we even talk about the difference in skill you have hopefully obtained from the experience you have gained from building your character.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    edited April 17

    None of the Dread Ring content is playable any more with that loadout. I got killed by Rotters in seconds and the same with the demons. Real level 70 content is unplayable.

    What level are you?

    Because I read your post and took my level 71 15.7k (preview) Barbarian to IWD and Dread Ring.

    In IWD at level 70 and 71 I had no trouble soloing the HEs and general zone stuff (even taking 2 waves of an Auril HE on Blademaster because I half killed the Totem by accident in a daily).

    In Dread Ring (level 71 scaled to 70) I had no trouble with the Demonic HEs (solo, I was the only person doing them), except the one where they run to the middle (in Sentinel mode I definitely don't have the dps to do that one, but I don't on live either). Similarly no trouble with general zone trash or in Dread Spire (which took about as long as it does on live).

    This isn't to invalidate your experience, but rather to question if the experience is caused by problems with the Barbarian or problems with scaling when you come to these zones at level 80?

    I will try to get my Bbn back to 80 and put some 80 gear I have stashed on her and try things out again, but based on my experience I suspect it is a scaling issue.
    Post edited by obsidiancran3 on
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • itzlapolaloltzitzlapolaloltz Posts: 37Member Arc User
    Lvl 70 area are easier when you are 70-ish but become hellish for lvl 80 scaled.
    Scaling RNG HAMSTER
  • psonnwroth#9192 psonnwroth Posts: 10Member Arc User


    None of the Dread Ring content is playable any more with that loadout. I got killed by Rotters in seconds and the same with the demons. Real level 70 content is unplayable.

    What level are you?

    Because I read your post and took my level 71 15.7k (preview) Barbarian to IWD and Dread Ring.

    In IWD at level 70 and 71 I had no trouble soloing the HEs and general zone stuff (even taking 2 waves of an Auril HE on Blademaster because I half killed the Totem by accident in a daily).

    In Dread Ring (level 71 scaled to 70) I had no trouble with the Demonic HEs (solo, I was the only person doing them), except the one where they run to the middle (in Sentinel mode I definitely don't have the dps to do that one, but I don't on live either). Similarly no trouble with general zone trash or in Dread Spire (which took about as long as it does on live).

    This isn't to invalidate your experience, but rather to question if the experience is caused by problems with the Barbarian or problems with scaling when you come to these zones at level 80?

    I will try to get my Bbn back to 80 and put some 80 gear I have stashed on her and try things out again, but based on my experience I suspect it is a scaling issue.
    The character I used was a level 73 Blade Master (DPS) 15,000 IL and an earlier loadout of the same character at level 70 with 9000 IL. My philosophy or style of play with GFW (Barbie) is paint yourself blue, set your hair on fire and charge the enemy while yelling at the top of your lungs, if they don't run in fear then hack them to pieces. LOL! No problem in mod 15, but gets me dead quickly in mod 16. In mod 15, I never ran away from an enemy, only toward them. Sure, solo on a T-Rex got me killed pretty often, but I took a few down too. Now, I am squishy and I either run away or die often. Not really the barbarian way as far as I'm concerned. I'm going to try different DPS builds and see if I get any improvements, but I'm not holding my breath. Thanks for the response.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,813Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    The gap between “invested heavily” and “just starting” is much reduced, which is good for the game. But it still exists

    Well, I'm not sure I agree with that. I think the gap was reduced too much. Consider what would happen if the gap was eliminated altogether. Sure, there would be some differences between players because of experience and practice, but gear improvements would not exist because everyone would have the exact same stats and be capable of doing exactly the same damage.

    I am sure there are players that would like such games, but I'm not in that group. For me, improving my character through gear upgrades is a very significant part of what makes the game fun for me. By devaluing my improvements, some of the fun is taken away.

    There are too many changes of this type in M16.
    • Reducing primary ability (STR/DEX/etc) bonuses from 1% to 0.25%.
    • Reducing the stats given by runestones, while at the same time massively increasing stats given by companion gear.
    • Changing 500 points = 1% to 1000 points = 1%, cuts the contribution of enchantments in half.
    • Making "almost BiS" gear very easily available.
    • Making many (most?) feats irrelvant.
    • Making boons only give an insignificant amount of fixed, static points.
    • Adding the "Combined" stats, which makes easily obtainable gear give an even higher percentage of total stats.
    Basically, the motivation to work hard to improve the character is being reduced when the improvements are not meaningful.

    My conclusion is that the game is deliberately being changed to appeal to a specific target audience, which I unfortunately do not belong to.
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    @psonnwroth#9192 I cannot say that is my play style, but I checked with my Blademaster build that I had no troubles with the Demonic HE and found them easier...

    So here is my Blademaster build:
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • psonnwroth#9192 psonnwroth Posts: 10Member Arc User
    Just to clarify @obsidiancran3, I did 1 round of 3 Demonic HE's in Dread Ring solo successfully using the style of play I usually use without too much trouble and I turned it in to the Demon Hunter. Then, I tried Dread Forge and got to the final battle with Jawbone where I lost 6 times and had to give up. Then, I got splattered by some rotters. Then, my attempt at a second round of DHE's just got me squished 7 times in the first one. Maybe something changed while I was in Dread Forge, but it didn't feel like it. I'm pretty sure the result would have been the same in Dread Spire, etc. I will review my CombatLog and see if I can see anything change suddenly.
  • skrewfaz3d#1482 skrewfaz3d Posts: 48Member Arc User
    Dread ring lairs don't scale from my experience. Though, I did just run one. However, the zone does. The rotters that normally "swarm the lines" are silver barred health and hit hard if you're not expecting it. They used to just be for atmosphere before basically. I didn't have a tough time doing a couple quests there but scaling is still off balance in a few cases. *This was with a lvl 80 dps barb not in the best best gear besides maybe the alabaster weapon since my undermountain set was nerfed.
  • psonnwroth#9192 psonnwroth Posts: 10Member Arc User
    @obsidiancran3 thanks for sharing. I noticed a couple of things I'm going to try. When I first set up these toons on the first day I think there were a couple of issues that have since been fixed if what I saw in your build is true. However, I had forgotten about it and didn't make any changes since then. I'm going to try rebuilding and see what happens.
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