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  • pakatapoespakatapoes Posts: 60Member Arc User
    The only thing is wait and see for now , and keep your vip keys and dont use them. Maybe in mod16 there will be more useful things in the lockboxes
  • kreatyvekreatyve Posts: 9,877Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Community Moderator
    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.
    My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox
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  • nemesrichnemesrich Posts: 58Member Arc User
    edited March 19
    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
  • nemesrichnemesrich Posts: 58Member Arc User

    Here's an interesting thing for all of us to think about.

    Unlike many MMOs, Cryptic created an economic system you're hard pressed to find outside of Eve and a very few other games.

    YOU DON'T NEED TO SPEND A SINGLE PENNY OF REAL WORLD CURRENCY.

    All you have to do is a couple of hours of dungeon running per day, among every other thing you do, and voila, you've got enough AD to exchange into Zen, bang, there's everything you need. It takes work, it doesn't come fast, no instant gratification, but it's definitely possible and it's stupidly easy.

    I've made 1.4 million in the last six days...refined. A couple more weeks of that, I exchange it, I've got the zen for my VIP. And more Zen for whatever else I want to buy. Bust tail on the screwed-up professions and start converting that, I'm a rich man.

    And not a penny of my cash spent.

    so what are you all whinging about?

    There are people who have life, family, job and can't spend their life playing this game.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 1,043Member Arc User

    The only thing is wait and see for now , and keep your vip keys and dont use them. Maybe in mod16 there will be more useful things in the lockboxes

    Whilst I agree with your sentiment "wait and see", in three years of playing I have yet to see a lockbox that wasn't, basically, a scam.

    [By scam I mean the rewards you *usually* get are found in dungeons or whatnot]
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Posts: 1,138Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 19
    nemesrich said:

    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
    It's not exactly this, there is a clause in the agreement that says they're allowed to choose what car you get. The problem is that if you do this sort of thing and get a name for it, then nobody ever rents any of your cars again.

    Look at the fallout from the closure of CoH, a number of people have NEVER given NCSoft another penny because of it (I'm one, but also none of their other games had any appeal so I wasn't really tested).

    There is a moral responsibility here although no legal one. What feels like the total destruction of all fun from soloing from what I've tested so far is just going too far for me, as I play solo 95% of the time.
  • havlockehavlocke Posts: 222Member Arc User
    nemesrich said:

    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
    I would say that there is a difference between renting something real, and renting pixels. Especially if you read the EULA in any MMO you play. They all make a specific, LEGAL point that they own the game and everything in it. You are, as was said by some others here, just renting the pixels.
  • havlockehavlocke Posts: 222Member Arc User
    blannde said:

    The problem is almost every time a change is made lately its detrimental to a lot of players in some way. And since Mod 6 was fixed for a long time things were great and changes were well thought out without re-inventing the wheel.

    However lately usually something is taken away or made pretty much useless and replaced with something of less value.

    As a completely solo player except for very rare occasions once it becomes not fun I won't play. And not having a lot of time and being older I spend money on VIP and as I like my almost 30 characters to have good gear, good companions, look good and mounts I buy a lot of Zen.

    I know 2 people already who have quit recently who like me are older and have money to use for entertainment like this. Why did they quit ? because recent changes made them feel like they wasted money and time and the fun had gone out of the game.

    Thats income the game loses. And its people who spend money who keep the game going. And for those who say well I can make lots of astral diamonds guess where the zen you buy comes from ? those zen you buy come from people who pay real money. I love this game and its one of the few where you can play solo, but this Mod 16 is too much in one go.

    It goes both ways. My group of friends have been playing NWO for the last year or so. We are all middle aged gamers with disposable incomes. And we were all probably going to leave in a few months because, while we all love DnD and MMOs, this one was getting boring. That's income the game was going to lose. Mod16 is the only thing that's sparked our interest in the last few months. AI certainly didn't.

    Unlike a lot of ppl commenting on this, we actually love to group. That's why we are playing an MMO. Being able to solo is great for some, but when most combat is just a case of seeing who can dps the fastest with the mostest and core concepts like healing and tanking seem to take a back seat the game isn't what we want out of our time. We can go back to D3 if we wanted that kind of action.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,352Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    nemesrich said:

    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
    In this case, you did not rent a Ferrari. You rented a car as the rental contract stated in "type of car section: ANY CAR". In the first month they give you a Ferrari and the 2nd month, they replace that with a Lada.
  • havlockehavlocke Posts: 222Member Arc User
    edited March 20

    The only thing is wait and see for now , and keep your vip keys and dont use them. Maybe in mod16 there will be more useful things in the lockboxes

    Whilst I agree with your sentiment "wait and see", in three years of playing I have yet to see a lockbox that wasn't, basically, a scam.

    [By scam I mean the rewards you *usually* get are found in dungeons or whatnot]
    The whole lockbox concept is a morally bankrupt scam. I certainly don't buy or open any in STO. The only reason I open any here is the free key I get from VIP. And even then, I usually just sell the unopened "inner boxes" on the AH rather than open them. Don't get me wrong, as a business concept, its a magnificent money maker. And whoever thought of it is a genius. Evil genius though :)
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Posts: 4,229Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    While I would agree, its a bit silly to think that you wasted money (the impetus on spending is a bit like a gambling addition for this game) hence, why many countries are forcing games to post % of lockbox rewards and or/other factors.

    Many people have felt the desire to own something, that wasnt even real.. so they spent vast amounts on money to get there. (in some cases multiple legendary mounts, BIS levels ect, some people even feel the compulsion to collect all mounts, companions ect.. )

    If you think you would have a problem with addictive behaviors towards spending, I would recommend skipping almost all modern mmos.. it wont be healthy for you.. LOTRO was much better back in its original day.. no lockbox junk.. spend to open things like bag space, shared bag space, and then buy the mods.. for like 29.99.. I floated mod sales here before, I am not intrinsically tied to the f2p model.. I wouldn't mind buying expansions instead, if it limits micro cash transactions.. I even asked for a DUAL model.. keep the current, but allow a sub program (better then this VERY watered down VIP they have now) that allowed for less grind, less micro transactions necessary , but it will reward the company with a more stable cash flow.

    If you on the otherhand, can limit your spending to a few dollars here and there and be reasonable about it.. you dont need to spend all that much to achieve most desired results, it just takes time, both in the short term grind and the long term accumulation.

    Just wait for a sale.. buy a few items (vip for 6 months at a time.. maybe a account wide horsie or a couple comps) then wait for the next one, dont be impatient, dont rush it.. MMOs are more of a marathon not a sprint. Heck between sales, Ive seen some things COME and GO , to be a must to a bust.. with a couple of months! Wasnt even worth the time to talk about them in the end.

    So yes, if you can blame the company, its they prey on those who feel a rush on gambling, and no, I dont think thats a harsh statement, I think its accurate in TODAYS mmo world.. and its not just this game.. its almost ALL mmos.

    I wish they could find a better avenue.. I still think instead of waiting for Whales.. just spread the income retention across a wider avenue of players...

    But whatever.. I have a certain "budget" I stick to in my game spending... I have other bigger responsibilities in the end.. (ones that are worth more then just pure entertainment value.

    In the end, if I leave the game again, its just a game.. I ve played years in EQ 1, and LOTRO and here.. around 12-13 years between those games total..

    Ive played alot of other mmos and games.. but those are the ones I have played the most.
  • nemesrichnemesrich Posts: 58Member Arc User
    edited March 20

    nemesrich said:

    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
    In this case, you did not rent a Ferrari. You rented a car as the rental contract stated in "type of car section: ANY CAR". In the first month they give you a Ferrari and the 2nd month, they replace that with a Lada.
    I don't question theyb right to change anything. Maybe the contract stated in "type of car section: ANY CAR" but I rented a Ferrari because they showed it in their ad. They can change it if they want disappointed customers.
  • kreatyvekreatyve Posts: 9,877Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Community Moderator
    nemesrich said:

    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
    Maybe you should read section 1.4 of the EULA?

    I'm sorry if my earlier comment came across as "shallow or mean spirited". That was not my intentions. It's just the way things are when it comes to spending money in an MMO. It's not just Neverwinter, it's pretty much any free-to-play MMO that makes changes like this.
    My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox
    Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
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  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,361Member Arc User
    I don't agree with all of the upcoming changes to the game. While some sound good, others sound promising and others just sound like an excuse to force more grind and get the revenue stream flowing again. Regardless, it is still completely at the discretion of the game makers if they go through a complete overhaul of the game.

    They're legally covered. And if I don't like the final version of the product, I'll leave. It's that simple.

    People complaining about the money that they're losing probably use services like Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, etc. You don't own anything there but you're willing to throw $xx a month at streaming services.

    Someday, streaming video will be no more (like 8 tracks, CDs or any other tech that is now obsolete). When that day comes you'll have zero to show for all the money you put into the streaming service. Are you going to complain that you have nothing to show for the money you spent?
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Posts: 1,138Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    nemesrich said:

    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
    Maybe you should read section 1.4 of the EULA?

    I'm sorry if my earlier comment came across as "shallow or mean spirited". That was not my intentions. It's just the way things are when it comes to spending money in an MMO. It's not just Neverwinter, it's pretty much any free-to-play MMO that makes changes like this.
    While true this UTTERLY misses a large part of the point. Would you ever rent from that car company again ? The reputational damage to PWE and Cryptic is potentially enormous. Other MMOs just DON'T make changes as extreme as this normally, and when they do, it needs to be handled much better from a PR point of view than Cryptic have with these changes.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,352Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I don't agree with all of the upcoming changes to the game. While some sound good, others sound promising and others just sound like an excuse to force more grind and get the revenue stream flowing again. Regardless, it is still completely at the discretion of the game makers if they go through a complete overhaul of the game.

    They're legally covered. And if I don't like the final version of the product, I'll leave. It's that simple.

    People complaining about the money that they're losing probably use services like Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, etc. You don't own anything there but you're willing to throw $xx a month at streaming services.

    Someday, streaming video will be no more (like 8 tracks, CDs or any other tech that is now obsolete). When that day comes you'll have zero to show for all the money you put into the streaming service. Are you going to complain that you have nothing to show for the money you spent?

    Yes, Damn Netflix keeps on getting rid the movie I wanted to watch but did not watch.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,490Member Arc User
    edited March 20
    krumple01 said:

    nemesrich said:



    I know they have the right to do it but why on earth would I spent money in this game again knowing that I can lose every progression any time? I doubt I will ever trust a company that did it to me again. And I guess I am not alone who thinks this way.
    I am curious if these changes will be worth it.

    I think Cryptic doesn't care about any veteran players who have spent any money in the past. They want two of three types of players. They want the naive player that will just deal with any change or nerfing or cash theft and keep blindly playing. The second are brand new players who know nothing of those "crimes" and doesn't have an clue how things were pre-mod 16.

    The third type of player cryptic doesn't want around. They are the players who have been playing since launch and have spent lots of money on their characters. They are hoping these players leave.

    while I mostly agree with you, I don't think it's EVER a good business plan to want a particular set of your customer base to leave. people that have spent money are people who are likely to continue spending money. although, I'm absolutely sure their priority is to lure in new players not to mollify old ones. but I'm pretty sure they don't want us to just flat out leave lol

    even if they don't let us have a change class token (which I agree they really ought to do) it would be nice if they let there be a one time bind to account for leg mounts and comps. so you could take the worst part of changing class and make it less painful
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  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Posts: 467Member Arc User
    edited March 20
    blannde said:

    The problem is almost every time a change is made lately its detrimental to a lot of players in some way. And since Mod 6 was fixed for a long time things were great and changes were well thought out without re-inventing the wheel.

    However lately usually something is taken away or made pretty much useless and replaced with something of less value.

    As a completely solo player except for very rare occasions once it becomes not fun I won't play. And not having a lot of time and being older I spend money on VIP and as I like my almost 30 characters to have good gear, good companions, look good and mounts I buy a lot of Zen.

    I know 2 people already who have quit recently who like me are older and have money to use for entertainment like this. Why did they quit ? because recent changes made them feel like they wasted money and time and the fun had gone out of the game.

    Thats income the game loses. And its people who spend money who keep the game going. And for those who say well I can make lots of astral diamonds guess where the zen you buy comes from ? those zen you buy come from people who pay real money. I love this game and its one of the few where you can play solo, but this Mod 16 is too much in one go.

    This is very well said and I suspect reflects the feelings of many players who spend good money on the game and many whales as well. Then you add that the new changes (besides what you pointed out) feel as if the game has been over simplified and has new changes that are no arguing directly in opposition the spirit of D&D. You end up with a ton of players getting upset and leaving.

    Like I pointed out in another post however, I can't believe that management would not take this into consideration. With that in mind, it would appear they simply don't care because new ways of increasing revenue are coming down the pike to compensate for those customers they will lose.
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  • fight#5797 fight Posts: 49Member Arc User

    i kno of one mmo that allows u to change ur "class" per say when things get neffed
    dcuo
    althougth u gotta pay for it.... u can change ur power on there at any given time nerf or not (effectivly changeing ur class if u donot pick a power that has the same class ability such as healer power to healer power or tank to tank power an whtnot) but unlke nw there arent any "class" specific abilities per race (hell there aint evn any races on dc other then boy/girl lol) soooo

    ok so the class i ivested all my time in is no longer a class i want to play because of changes forced on us.

    i dont want a class change im quite happy to start from lvl one so long as i can have my mount etc as acount bound and not to the class thats changed so much.AS the only way for me to make a new class without spending cash/zen is to deleate one that i have already so all my mounts etc will be gone. SO just make items account bound and not player and alls well .

  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 577Member Arc User



    It’s no different if you were to buy a particular anti-virus, software package that you dutifully pay each year for the annual fee and the company suddenly announces that, not only will the software you loyally purchased will no longer do what you bought it for, if you want to keep the same level of protection, you will have to buy a whole new package all together. And yes, just like you say, its all pointed out in the EULA but it smacks of lack of concern for the customer and reeks of cold, shallow corporate heartlessness, even if it sincerely isn’t meant to be but that is how it feels.

    Except that what you paid for, whatever it is, will still work like it is "supposed to". You will still be able to ride all of your mounts, you will still be able to summon companions to your side to help in fights, your character is still your character.

    That you may not be able to do things as ridiculously effectively as you had before doesn't change the basic function of what you spent money on.

    So you still have the anti-virus software, but there have been new viruses coming out and they had to change how the software worked to be effective.
    I also don’t think the powers at Cryptic are naive enough to think people won’t be very sore about this, especially the people who have dropped a ton of money historically. We would love to hear something from the actual PR team or executive management team addressing this issues in a more sympathetic manner than they have. It would go a long way to perhaps soothe some nerves.

    As far as people being rude to you guys, you might want to refer those people to the recent story in Kotaki concerning another gaming studio’s devs response to the toxic behaviour by their fan base on the release of their new game.

    You have heard their reasons. Those blog posts? Where they explained why they were making these changes? Yeah, that.

    They may not have said what you wanted to hear, but they gave their reasons.

    So, what would make you happy? Don't say "we aren't going to make any changes and just add a new dungeon" because that won't be happening and it certainly isn't clever.

    What words are you looking for them to say that would make the current direction of Mod16 just fine with you?

    Because I do not think that they can say anything.

    The current state of the game is a shambles. It's got an unsustainable meta. If it isn't losing players in large numbers they are probably thinking that they soon will be.
    So they are trying to fix it. And yes, it does need to be fixed. The game is broken.

    And in the meantime people are still working on Mod16 and trying to make things better, trying to fix problems that they acknowledge exist, trying to smooth out inconsistencies that resulted from some design changes, and in their "spare" time coming to the preview forums and telling people some of what is happening in their area(s) of responsibility, what they can look for in the future, offering even more explanations for why they are doing certain things, and asking for feedback concerning certain areas and issues.

  • wylonuswylonus Posts: 2,358Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    are we getting something better for VIP since those ID scrolls will be gone? without bonus perk made it seem too costly to keep up. getting chest reroll tokens look smaller without scrolls. i had other topic post for updating VIP and seem other shot it down or got flamed for it. it was 2-3 months ago, part of idea was for workshop concept.
    since this new "glorious" version, still not had pull any legendary, seem to get same stuffs repeatly, it turning so sour and felt being cheated by this "house".

    speaking of EULA, that where we dont own, i knew that, it still free to play, many of players doesnt like major "reboot". that okay. just let you know that i played Asheron's Call for years, it was my first MMO since 2001, it got shut down by Warner Bros, all that i "own" on my character, and villa and all that items, well, those are gone now, let move on. what really hurt the most, lost of the community of players i met are like my 2nd family, Neverwinter almost dont have that kind of feeling close-knit, my character reached max level at 275, and they add new "end-game" leveling with Augmenation Gems as newer customization skill modifiers.
    those cost monthly subscriptions, and look back years of all that monthly that i paid over 15 yrs before they ended monthly fee and then pulled the plug by sunsetting.

    so, i am watching for VIP if they get update and still getting poor prizes from daily VIP keys, then it doesnt make sense to keep up at rank 12 VIP, it seem pretty much done for good. i feel like it play like slot machine casino online when it was suppose to be role-play online.
    Bad RNG make players unhappy and unmotivated.
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Posts: 467Member Arc User
    edited March 21
    @mithrosnomore

    I may be mistaken but has anyone from the actual executive team from either Crytpic or PerfectWorld (upper management (not devs) addressed these issues since the initial announcements? Have any of them addressed some of these frustrating issues directly? If so can you provide the link because I genuinely would like to read them. (I'm not trying to be flippant I may have honestly missed them)

    Your example about the mounts is shallow at least or disingenuous at most. Yes we still have the mounts but mounts' sole purpose is not to just provide transportation, as you well know. I would be willing to bet the mounts that the majority of people have paid Zen to acquire them did so because they served a specific function. For example, the lego combat powers which have now been completely nuked or taken away all together and replaced with something not as good or even useless. Same could be said with companions.

    The fact is, people paid real money for these items to provide a real effect in the game. Now, many (if not all) of these effects have been changed, nerfed or taken away but the bottom line is they no longer do what we purchased them to do and even if we wanted to pay more money to "fix" them we can't. Whether they meant this or not, it comes across as a cash grab (so people will buy better new ones) or incredibly short sighted. Either way it does not garner good will. They could have "fixed" the game without so drastically nuking so many things at once IMO. (But that is an issue for another thread).


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  • wylonuswylonus Posts: 2,358Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    i can describe WoTC past behavors, i remember first card game online, many players bought packs and traded cards, then 2 years, got unplugged, and then put up next card games, and again took off after 2nd year, and then they put up "Planewalkers", and decided not to get involved or spend any dime for new pack or expansion, it is all pixels, we dont own anything, we lost everything and lost again, so i prefer owning a real physical cards from comic & game shops.
    so i dont play WotC's MtG card game online so instead i am playing Elderscroll's Legends card game, it all free and really like their daily perks, it take awhile to "cash-in" for packs on sale or trade in for mini stories.

    big problem with WotC, buying a booster packs are expensive and suddenly unplug the game in every 2 years, wiping out players' collection.
    players now knew and would avoid another scam and dont want another cash bait, not worth investing in pixel online games that would die or hardcore reboot.

    Star Trek online seem more stable than Neverwinter and years ahead, they have smoothiest new level cap raised, so much better than Mod 6 that we had.

    Question for players, do you remember how rare or often that first lockbox, Nightmare edition drops, not as common, and it was easier to win some specific prizes with few amounts of keys used?
    And now today and current lockboxes drop like discarded toilet papers by hundred a day and the chance of prizes we wanted always seem out of reach by nasty RNG and players hated it and see it as paywall cash bait.
  • havlockehavlocke Posts: 222Member Arc User
    edited March 21

    kreatyve said:

    nemesrich said:

    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
    Maybe you should read section 1.4 of the EULA?

    I'm sorry if my earlier comment came across as "shallow or mean spirited". That was not my intentions. It's just the way things are when it comes to spending money in an MMO. It's not just Neverwinter, it's pretty much any free-to-play MMO that makes changes like this.
    While true this UTTERLY misses a large part of the point. Would you ever rent from that car company again ? The reputational damage to PWE and Cryptic is potentially enormous. Other MMOs just DON'T make changes as extreme as this normally, and when they do, it needs to be handled much better from a PR point of view than Cryptic have with these changes.
    They've said why they are doing this. Repeatedly. And for me, they were good reasons.

    To use your car rental analogy. You been renting a Ferrari. And now they are changing it to a Volkswagon because the Ferrari is shown to be fuel inefficient and they will no longer offer it. They have it in their contract that "they can change any car at their discretion" like every car rental place. You think this is bogus. You don't care about the Ferrari's fuel inefficiency. Unfortunately this is now their policy. Some agree with you. Some agree with the company. Big debate in forums. You think this is a bad idea, they disagree and think this new policy will generate more customers.

    As for other MMOs making extreme changes. This is nothing compared to the crapstorm I saw when they revamped Skills and Companions (sound familiar?) in SWTOR 3 years ago. Or when they revamped Skill Trees in WoW. Or when SW Galaxies went to new era. Or when .... etc etc.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Posts: 1,138Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    havlocke said:

    kreatyve said:

    nemesrich said:

    kreatyve said:

    I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if they realized that their MMO purchases are just rentals. If you read the fine print, you are paying to manipulate pixels, but you do not actually OWN anything on your account. Read the EULA that everyone had to agree to before starting the game.

    I am not a lawyer but I think even if you rent you have some rights, don't you? I don't want to own it, I just want to use what I originally rent. Imagine you rent a Ferrari and after some months they replace it to a Lada. What would you say?
    Maybe you should read section 1.4 of the EULA?

    I'm sorry if my earlier comment came across as "shallow or mean spirited". That was not my intentions. It's just the way things are when it comes to spending money in an MMO. It's not just Neverwinter, it's pretty much any free-to-play MMO that makes changes like this.
    While true this UTTERLY misses a large part of the point. Would you ever rent from that car company again ? The reputational damage to PWE and Cryptic is potentially enormous. Other MMOs just DON'T make changes as extreme as this normally, and when they do, it needs to be handled much better from a PR point of view than Cryptic have with these changes.
    They've said why they are doing this. Repeatedly. And for me, they were good reasons.

    To use your car rental analogy. You been renting a Ferrari. And now they are changing it to a Volkswagon because the Ferrari is shown to be fuel inefficient and they will no longer offer it. They have it in their contract that "they can change any car at their discretion" like every car rental place. You think this is bogus. You don't care about the Ferrari's fuel inefficiency. Unfortunately this is now their policy. Some agree with you. Some agree with the company. Big debate in forums. You think this is a bad idea, they disagree and think this new policy will generate more customers.

    As for other MMOs making extreme changes. This is nothing compared to the crapstorm I saw when they revamped Skills and Companions (sound familiar?) in SWTOR 3 years ago. Or when they revamped Skill Trees in WoW. Or when SW Galaxies went to new era. Or when .... etc etc.
    I wasn't playing any of the games you listed, how was the PR handled ? The only one I did see was ED in CoH and they explained why they were doing it very exactly and it was a "we want to do this to add a lot MORE fun and build complexity to the game, but we can't without this nerf".

    Another big no-no is getting somebody hooked on the game, and then changing the game so that it requires a much higher level of skill than it did when they joined. My reflexes are not as sharp as they were when I was younger and if a game is too "twitchy" I can't play it. NW has never really been an issue in that respect, but if the odd failure to dodge is going to kill you, particularly with lag and bugs, that rules me out, atm the buff stacking and lifesteal protects me from this.

    I actually don't believe a lot of the reasons given. As somebody who is kinda in the industry, it's done to save money by making it easier and cheaper to maintain and add new classes which are a moneyspinner but otherwise very effort intensive and thus expensive (hence none for years). Reduce the number of powers = reduce the number of animations required etc. You can also see this philosophy with the foundry sunset.

    What IMO should have happened:

    When you first envisage you're going to do this - I'm guessing before Mod 15 was released, you look at whether you are doing anything in M15 that is going to be in "bait and switch" territory with mod 16. +1 MW weapons and MW necks for companions would fall into that category particularly with the clumsy PR that made many people believe that the MW IL upgrade was NOT a one-off.

    A lot of people spent a lot of "money" on upgrading mastercrafting, saying "it's now completely useless for 6 months" is not acceptable, this should not have been released without either bumping the IL to 20 below the new stuff, new mastercraft items or a new full tier.

    If buff stacking was a problem (I don't get on high end dungeon parties so never see it) then deal with buff stacking, make the buffs self only if you have to, reduce lifesteal severity by a factor of 10, but don't kill the fun of solo play. It's a pretty well known fact that high end dungeoneers/raiders are way overrepresented on the forums compared to people who mainly solo or play more modest characters, and it appears that the powers that be have listened purely to the loud voices on the forums.

  • kvetkvet Posts: 2,700Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
  • huijianhuijian Posts: 62Member Arc User
    Lets put it this way, the mod16 preview is such a disaster they actually had to do contest giveaways on reddit to solicit positive feedback.

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