Anyone mind sharing what they're doing that makes Justicar so soloable?
I'm playing as I potentially will on live, with my current level 70 gear, replacing with appropriate blue and green gear as it becomes available. I'm literally getting chewed up in the final zone. Any particular reason why this new campaign isn't giving nice blue gear at the end of each section, like elemental evil did? Blue pants and shirt are about it.... Any reason why the new provided undermountain weapons are lower IL than what I currently have?
> Am I the only one who wants the Op to have a dps path?
You aren't the only one. Me too. But looks like the devs want to make us support slaves that can't damage by their own. I personnaly would be happy to sacrifice a few tanking and healing abilities for damage
Paladin already had access to a healing and tanking path before Module 16, so that's the rationale behind the two paths that are available to them. We wanted to continue to support the two play styles that were available to Paladins since the class was first introduced.
I was thinking as I was reading this, why not take away the heal path and replace it with dps path? That would be interesting. Since we are doing such a major overhaul might as well change the roles. Barbs can tank now new roles are always refreshing.
Post edited by dukeguard#8158 on
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
So, this issue Im about to address is old, very old but still present. It's more cosmetic than anything but believe me, fixing it would add a lot to the overall feel-good of the Paladin class/
What is the issue? Its simple, the way the Paladin holds Hammers! So, currently on live and preview the Paladin grabs the hammer pretty much on the middle of its handle which makes no sense. This problem Paladins inherit from Clerics since I suspect we share alot with them and I mean alot, including how we hold our weapons. In m16 you are actually adding only the second good looking hammer to the game /shame on you, go check WoW, they really provide the players with cool looking weapons/. Im talking about the Golden Sword of the Watcher of course. Great looking hammer, we really need more of those in the game because the maces you gave Paladins are puny. I know you're super busy with trying to balance the next mod but please, if you have some time left do make the Paladin hold Mace/Hammer type weapons lower on the handle!
Thank you!
Wont let me post image for some reason so I post a link to my screenshot instead https://ibb.co/ZB5WJYX
@asterdahl Please, forward this information to item designers
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
@asterdahl means to reduce an effect on Justicar's charge that reduce damage dealt by monster hit by the spell. I don't read an ugrade on damage done by OP. I may be wrong as I'm not a good in english.
Dealing only 3 times (down from 5) coupled with 50% of our DPS (down from 70%) to generate aggro won't be wise according to me. OP will generate aggro 1,5 his theorical damage down from 3,5. A DPS class will maximise his damage multiplier with critical strike, combat advantage and accuracy. The chance of making a totally maximized damage is thin but it happens. According to Janne website you can achieve a x5 or very near. To keep aggro, the OP needs to do "aggro" damage as high as the DPS do exactly at the same time. As a result, the DPS may be one shot. May be a small margin will be usefull to preserve the DPS.
Hey everyone! Sorry for the slow responses the last few days—spent the last few days burning down a pile of bugs and making as many adjustments as I could for this week's build. The big feat adjustments are going to have to wait for next week but this week will feature the aforementioned changes to divine palisade, an increase to the damage of sacred weapon, control immunity when using the Oathkeeper daily Sanctuary, and most significantly, a large adjustment to both block and "Justicar's Charge."
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points. At the same time, the maximum amount of damage prevented by a full stamina bar will be reduced from 100% of maximum hit points to 50% of maximum hit points.
These changes mean more effective hit points at the start of a fight for any tank. E.g. If you have 100,000 HP, and you used to block for 100,000—you had a total of 200,000 effective hit points. Now you'll have 140,000 HP, and you will block for 70,000—for a total of 210,000 EHP.
Naturally, this means that your block is a little weaker, but it's still very powerful given how quickly stamina regenerates. We think these changes feel good, a bit more tank healing is required in group content, and tanks can't shield quite as much so often in PvP. However, we're absolutely still ironing out the details regarding tank durability, so these numbers could be reverted, or changed further, but we'd like to see how everyone feels about these changes. So please send your feedback once you've had a chance to check them out in this week's upcoming build.
Currently I am soloing (as Justicar at the moment) Master Expedition with Crystals enabled, I am about to enter the Expedition with all 3 crystals enabled for testing purposes.
I will get back on this once i have putted my findings together.
Ok, I tried to solo 3 crystals and this mode definitely need a group to get trough since my DPS was not sufficient enough, but when I look at survivability then it's ok (at least for me).. and had to abort the run.
Went back in with 2 Crystals (Balance and Rage) and went trough with ease, (trash) mobs where hitting pretty hard but was doable... The bosses are too weak imho compared to trash mobs and could be adjusted up a bit (considering when going in normally with a group) Unfortunately the worst thing happened, got Remorhaz as end boss (hope it will be fixed soon), he fled again and never returned.. I had to abort this run too.. Bad thing is that I run out of Balance Crystals quickly this way, so I have to ask around if I can group up with someone so I can get access again to Balanced Crystals...
Anyhow, The tanking part looks ok (for me) considering survivability.
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
4
gormenghast1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 88Arc User
Hello! Thanks for the feedback! We certainly haven't conceived the entire rework to the combat system to make tanks unreliable, In fact, quite the opposite, we've made a huge number of changes to threat generation to make tanks able to more reliably manipulate the enemy's actual threat, as opposed to bypassing their threat entirely, which means that if you stop keeping the hard taunt up 100% of the time, you immediately lose the enemy's attention.
Keep in mind, that in your example of Smite and Divine Challenger, the other tanks have a similar combo in both cases, but they are on powers with fairly long cooldowns. Smite will come back in about the same amount of time even if you don't block. That being said, I am aiming to look closely at how divinity feels vis-a-vis Justicar's Charge.
Hello @asterdahl and thank you as always for the time invested in keeping contact with us.
My bad, I just happened to fail in noticing it but there is actually a certain divinity regeneration in combat other than blocking incoming hits. The small scale of it is actually reasonable when taken in perspective of the general coodowns for non divinity fueled encounters.
But, I'd also like to take a moment to repost some things I posted in the fighter thread on the topic of threat, as I think they may be helpful for any tanks to read.
I do understand that there a lot of frustrating elements at play right now, with various bugs, and with the damage of various classes in flux, but I would like to clarify some things about "damage based threat." I believe you may be getting caught up on the wrong part of threat being damage based, threat being damage based does not mean that you need to eclipse your DPS's damage in order to hold threat. I do not believe that damage based threat is at the core of any of the problems or issues currently present in preview.
I've been trying to explain the way that damage based threat works for those struggling, and I apologize that I've repeatedly failed to convey the concept clearly. So I'd like to make another attempt! (Please note, I'm using hypothetical numbers for this example.)
Sally the DPS and Jane the Tank are both in a level 30 dungeon fighting an Orc.
>Sally hits the orc with a fireball for 500 damage. (She generates 500 threat) >Jane hits the orc with linebreaker for 100 damage. (But she generates 1000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 100x5x2 = 1000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
Sally and Jane keep leveling up, and they both get stronger equipment, and soon they're in a level 80 dungeon fighting a Dragon.
>Sally hits the dragon with a fireball for 5000 damage. (She generates 5000 threat) >Jane hits the dragon with linebreaker for 1000 damage. (But she generates 10000 threat because linebreaker generates "additional threat" and she has a passive threat bonus, so 1000x5x2 = 10000.)
Jane has the enemy's attention.
As you can see from the example, in both cases, Sally did much more damage, but Jane was able to keep the enemy's attention. Jane's ability to keep the enemy's attention increased as the base damage of her powers did, with her character's equipment getting better and better.
That's really the core concept of damage based threat, as opposed to hard taunts, as you get stronger, you get better at holding threat. So in order to hold threat off of a DPS, you just have to keep getting stronger along with them. You don't need to eclipse their damage or even come close, you just need to get better at a similar pace. Of course, how much leeway there is, or how much worse your equipment can be before you start struggling with threat, is something we are carefully watching. We definitely want to ensure that you can hold threat if you're very focused on it, even off of a much stronger DPS, but if you're very good, you can maybe focus more on pure damaging powers and still keep the enemy's attention.
The biggest challenge, I think, is learning when and how to use block. It may seem like you should turtle with how effective block is now, however, especially if you're losing threat because your DPS are pushing you, you should definitely not be turtling. In those cases, you should limit block to large attacks, or after you've established a good lead on threat. A decent healer should be able to keep you alive without a problem in those cases.
That being said, right now, in a lot of group content, DPS also aren't being punished enough for pulling threat, so we're looking into that very closely.
With this bit in particular, I think it affects paladins a bit differently than fighters, as currently justicar's charge certainly encourages heavy turtling, but that is something I will be looking at.
Thank you for the insight, but please keep in mind that Sally the DPS's gameplay is focused completely in dishing out the maximum possible amount of damage through use of her powers, while Jane will have to switch from a more aggressive stance to a defensive one while blocking. Jane, though, is a Fighter that has the ability to keep up with threat generation using her Guarded Strike and her Shield Bash. Barbie the Sentinel, were she filling in the role of tank, would instead be able to block with Sentinel's Slash, dishing out 85 magnitude AoE hits linked to the use of this at-will; more than that, she would use autoblocking, CC immune Unstoppable frames to climb up the threat chart while free to use dailies, encounters and faster at-wills.
Paladins, on the other hand, stop completely in their tracks in building threat when blocking. While the other tank classes feature blocking mechanics that allow them to partially keep up with DPS/healing classes aggro-wise, Paladins are completely unable to hold the pace and have to resort to hard taunts to cope with it. Being time limited, hard taunts are a transitory solution to this lack of threat generation during block frames. This can lead to a constant struggle to hold the topmost position in the aggro chart, which is a priority for a functional tank class.
In addiction to that, the absence of additional mechanics linked to Paladin's block give the feeling of passivity that the other tank classes don't share; I believe this is one of the main reasons many Paladin players feel their class to be exceedingly turtlish. The old OP's gameplay allowed for short and situational uses of their shield to gain CC immunity or party DR buff frames, so the lack of any addictional features was not an issue. The new mechanics force Paladins to invest much more time using the shield and thus, being unable to do anything else besides soaking damage, feels way too passive and grants no flavour to their playstyle.
My suggestion is to grant some uniqueness to the Justicar's blocking mechanic on the same basis featured by Vanguards and Sentinels. It could be some kind of holy intervention following a charging time, a shield risposte, a CC effect or actually anything capable of giving Justicars a specific flavour when using their shield. Granting a special aspect to the Justicar's block would help a lot in reducing its passiveness and, ultimately, the "basic tank" feel it has now.
3
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
As for me, I only want OP to be a good tank and I don't want him to be outclassed. In my opinion he doesn't need a DPS spec, but rather solid damage reduction skills that would benefit party so that he'll be useful and wanted for the dungeon runs. I'm waiting. I hope that tanks won't be at the top of DPS charts anymore, but they'll be required to progress through the dungeons. I also hope that they won't be able to stand by themselves and tank everything without a healer. I simply please to make OP's gameplay more varied rather than standing still while holding shift or using skills without any rotation as it is now.
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all. The fact of the matter is, I have enough AD to bis any toon I like in about half an hour, without even worrying about how much I am spending. I also have a good group of friends and can run through any content on any toon. I care more about balance then making 1 particular toon over perform.
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all.
Vampires are not trival for most players Hes is not trival for most players and I tested with my 22k OP together with my friends 22k Cw the difference in dps is pretty much redicules now.
Add to that the survivability of the Cw is more then high enough to claer any trash also so in masters exp. Yes there will be private queues but that to not remove the pug ones.
As long as dps classes do more dps and have enough survivability they will still have the advantage of range, aoe, less gear and will do all solo quest faster hence will be an easer time gear up.
Dps has a bigger role now that they remove the stacking buff system then in mod 15 making it impractical to stack utility in groups compared to dps.
Again yes tanks should do less damage then pure dps classes but if you take into account the inherited dissadvantages of having to gear for 2 different roles(tanks) having to fight in melee range having less aoe among others 50% less damage is a total overkill and would make those that play tanks suffer for no other reason than that making dps classes feel good about their higher dps.
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all.
Vampires are not trival for most players Hes is not trival for most players and I tested with my 22k OP together with my friends 22k Cw the difference in dps is pretty much redicules now.
Add to that the survivability of the Cw is more then high enough to claer any trash also so in masters exp. Yes there will be private queues but that to not remove the pug ones.
As long as dps classes do more dps and have enough survivability they will still have the advantage of range, aoe, less gear and will do all solo quest faster hence will be an easer time gear up.
Dps has a bigger role now that they remove the stacking buff system then in mod 15 making it impractical to stack utility in groups compared to dps.
Again yes tanks should do less damage then pure dps classes but if you take into account the inherited dissadvantages of having to gear for 2 different roles(tanks) having to fight in melee range having less aoe among others 50% less damage is a total overkill and would make those that play tanks suffer for no other reason than that making dps classes feel good about their higher dps.
And I have tested in comparison to a friend of mine who plays OP, across multiple LoMM runs, dummy tests, etc. We both agreed, OP is in the ok-too much dps range at the moment. Buffing its damage more is out of the question.
I see that is what you believe is right but we are talking about a 50% hard cap differance here and that is for stated reasons overkill in so many ways.
Are you willing to cut the survivability of all dps classes with 50% harcapping def and deflect ?
What you suggest is making solo play a pain for either tanks or if reducing defence for dps also all dps classes.
There are games where this excist you simply need a tank, dps and healer to run the content as tanks can not kill fast enough and tanks/healers can not kill fast enough it is no fun for any involved.
I think you are argueing for dps is being able to have higher damge with very little or no dissadvantages and those that play tank will take the consequences which in my book is not fair.
If dps classes does more damage then tanks with all other benifits there are of playing a class with range aoe easer to gear etc that is more then enough having tank classes taking twice as long to clear content is taking it to far.
Best
3
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I see that is what you believe is right but we are talking about a 50% hard cap differance here and that is for stated reasons overkill in so many ways.
Are you willing to cut the survivability of all dps classes with 50% harcapping def and deflect ?
What you suggest is making solo play a pain for either tanks or if reducing defence for dps also all dps classes.
There are games where this excist you simply need a tank, dps and healer to run the content as tanks can not kill fast enough and tanks/healers can not kill fast enough it is no fun for any involved.
I think you are argueing for dps is being able to have higher damge with very little or no dissadvantages and those that play tank will take the consequences which in my book is not fair.
If dps classes does more damage then tanks with all other benifits there are of playing a class with range aoe easer to gear etc that is more then enough having tank classes taking twice as long to clear content is taking it to far.
Best
I am more then willing to cut the survivability of dps by 50%, in fact, I think you should propose it. You will see in my initial suggestion I mentioned "modifications to survivability" as the 3rd point.
I see that is what you believe is right but we are talking about a 50% hard cap differance here and that is for stated reasons overkill in so many ways.
Are you willing to cut the survivability of all dps classes with 50% harcapping def and deflect ?
What you suggest is making solo play a pain for either tanks or if reducing defence for dps also all dps classes.
There are games where this excist you simply need a tank, dps and healer to run the content as tanks can not kill fast enough and tanks/healers can not kill fast enough it is no fun for any involved.
I think you are argueing for dps is being able to have higher damge with very little or no dissadvantages and those that play tank will take the consequences which in my book is not fair.
If dps classes does more damage then tanks with all other benifits there are of playing a class with range aoe easer to gear etc that is more then enough having tank classes taking twice as long to clear content is taking it to far.
Best
I am more then willing to cut the survivability of dps by 50%, in fact, I think you should propose it. You will see in my initial suggestion I mentioned "modifications to survivability" as the 3rd point.
I understand that what you suggest leads to 2 things.
1. Dps classes gets their defence nerfed but it is still enough to survive both solo and in group setting not effecting much and tanks gets nerfed in dps that will make them suffer in all solo play. This is the best case scenario.
2. The nerf in defence makes it impossible to survive any group content for dps where the tank is not able to hold aggro as the content must be a challlange enough to threaten the tank but the dps can not survive due to to low defence. Soloing becomes a pain for both dps and tanks as tanks takes forever to kill mobs and dps has a hard time surviving making people at least duo simple solo quest.
I understand your concern about tanks being equal in damage as dps classes but your suggestion leads to a game where you only play group content and Neverwinter is not such a game.
In this game solo play is a major player and making to a to large gap in such a game is only going to lead to what we had before the class flawor of the month/year. If one class or genre of classes perform overall much better then any other the cry for nerf or boost becomes and endless circle such as it has been the last 4 years. THIS is what they are moving away from.
With all due respect if this game is moving forward in the direction stated by the devs there is no room for pure tanks no damage pure dps no defence(ofc it is very little damage and very little defence but you get the meaning).
so... this might be a very late suggestion/request for a core mechanic to be changed... and i might be the only one / very tiny minority... and i fully realize 99.99% chances of it not happening buuuuuut...
please change the shield mechanic - replace it with a more generic, non-facing and non-active playstyle deal
personally, i feel that the fighter (as tank) is the shield, barbarian (even as tank) is the weapon, so let the paladin be the armor
more detailed reasoning:
your studios' other titles allow one to play (if we choose) in a static, mostly stationary format or be more carefree, if we like without severe penalties in combat, regardless of enemy mechanics. Of course, if we choose to be that way, we get hurt more but you give us options to mitigate that by letting us emphasize defense / healing at the cost of damage, etc. key point the choice is there, movement and facing is not the core mechanic but seems to be the case for Neverwinter
my husband and i use the paladin as our main class because
a) i can be carefree and play as a heal focused tank and screw up a lot as i am prone to.
i do this because i'm not a big gamer so my timings are always off... plus i love hopping around in combat
b) my husband doesn't have to move/face enemies all the time because he has made his paladin into a ranged tank, of all things. he sets up a combat area and pulls enemies from far off with his auras and whatever ranged options he has, he focuses mainly on mitigation, ridiculous threat and positioning the enemy
note: positioning the enemy, not moving himself
he does this because he prefers a more passive playstyle and he can be absurdly innovative AND he has a busted up arm, so he has mobility issues with his hand/fingers and cannot constantly turn to face enemies AND move AND have shield up, blah blah, basically too many actions at once too frequently are a no go... he doesn't even use at-wills much
we don't play any of the latest/endgame dungeons (obviously) because that requires a lot more coordination and precision than we can realistically ever manage
this shield mechanic is why we don't like the Fighter if it is possible please change this mechanic; especially when normal/trash mobs are involved.. i can agree with facing being important with bosses though
if it cannot be changed, allow a class-change option down the line
otherwise... and please don't read this as a threat, but this is something that will keep me from playing because this core mechanic will see him struggle... and i know he won't complain one bit but i absolutely do NOT want to see him struggling just because i want us to game together on Neverwinter too
The upcoming changes that reduce the amount of damage mitigation provided by block, but increase the justicar's base health should at least somewhat alleviate your issues, by making you more durable in general. Block is still something you can use much more easily than dodging on other classes, and since Neverwinter is an action game, we feel that blocking as it is, is not out of line.
That being said, I do understand the feedback. Does your husband play mostly on console or PC? We would definitely like to look into more accessibility options in the future though I don't have a specific timeline. Please let us know if he has a chance to play with the changes, and how he feels after getting used to them.
Hi! Thanks for the response.
I fully realize and understand that NW is a much faster paced action game than STO and CO. I was pointing out that out of all the classes available, Paladin had the most convenient-to-use-for-us shift-key mechanic; which the dev team wants to make more active like the other classes... standardization. I do get that, just wanted to let you guys know that this odd-one-out was a huge boon to us (well, mainly to the husband, of course). I threw the issue out here, not really sure if accessibility was considered in this top-down-multi-system-overhaul.
Again, Paladin-on-live is the only class that has this - a non-facing, non-movement reliant feature ... so yeah I fully see you guys wanting to standardize it with the rest. Not happy, but understanding. I, unfortunately, will most likely not be able to convince him to test it out on preview (he isn't fond of spoilers) but if the mechanic (by that i only mean movement/facing) is like the Fighter (and the guardian fighter on live); we already know how that works.
And I also realize you have your hands full with the mechanics of the class in this thread (and all the others!) and that we are talking more about accessibility now, so just one last request on the subject but before that I need to answer your question: we play on PC only (controller is a no-go).
And here is the request: have a toggle/keybind that increases the mouse sensitivity by a customizable amount. That will let him turn it on during combat for when he has to turn to face enemies; and have it off when doing other interactions. Maybe there is a way to keybind this already via console-commands?
Edit: in regards to the request, got a suggestion to try a gaming-mouse instead, hopefully that is a better/easier solution
> @finmakin said: > Went back in with 2 Crystals (Balance and Rage) and went trough with ease, (trash) mobs where hitting pretty hard but was doable... The bosses are too weak imho compared to trash mobs and could be adjusted up a bit (considering when going in normally with a group) > Unfortunately the worst thing happened, got Remorhaz as end boss (hope it will be fixed soon), he fled again and never returned.. I had to abort this run too.. > Bad thing is that I run out of Balance Crystals quickly this way, so I have to ask around if I can group up with someone so I can get access again to Balanced Crystals... > > Anyhow, The tanking part looks ok (for me) considering survivability.
I’m on for 3-4 hours after reset (on live) each day and have 2 toons (Warlock and Paly) with a set of crystals. Happy to get together and hit stuff.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all. The fact of the matter is, I have enough AD to bis any toon I like in about half an hour, without even worrying about how much I am spending. I also have a good group of friends and can run through any content on any toon. I care more about balance then making 1 particular toon over perform.
You would nerf the Paladin even more? Now this is the most major display of insolence Ive seen since this thread was started. Looks like a professional pvp troll has emerged from under his bridge and made his way on to our feedback thread. The devs only listed what they plan to do and yet you, in your great wisdom, already know what effect those changes will have on the game thus you rebuke them before they are even implemented/tested/ and actually dare to suggest further nerfs to the class... Amazing. Please pick up your orb and get on your merry way back to the wizard feedback thread.
The increase in dps and decrease to Block wouldnt have been my choise fixes but obviously thats the best the devs can come up with for the moment. Personally Id keep the 30% dmg reduction and instead focus on making things like auras and feats useful. And of course D recovery.
AND I WILL REPEAT /in caps/ WHAT I ALREADY SAID SOME PAGES BACK ON THIS THREAD - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT DEVISING CLASS BALANCING CHANGES BASED ON PVP CONCERNS!
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
3
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all. The fact of the matter is, I have enough AD to bis any toon I like in about half an hour, without even worrying about how much I am spending. I also have a good group of friends and can run through any content on any toon. I care more about balance then making 1 particular toon over perform.
You would nerf the Paladin even more? Now this is the most major display of insolence Ive seen since this thread was started. Looks like a professional pvp troll has emerged from under his bridge and made his way on to our feedback thread. The devs only listed what they plan to do and yet you, in your great wisdom, already know what effect those changes will have on the game thus you rebuke them before they are even implemented/tested/ and actually dare to suggest further nerfs to the class... Amazing. Please pick up your orb and get on your merry way back to the wizard feedback thread.
The increase in dps and decrease to Block wouldnt have been my choise fixes but obviously thats the best the devs can come up with for the moment. Personally Id keep the 30% dmg reduction and instead focus on making things like auras and feats useful. And of course D recovery.
AND I WILL REPEAT /in caps/ WHAT I ALREADY SAID SOME PAGES BACK ON THIS THREAD - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT DEVISING CLASS BALANCING CHANGES BASED ON PVP CONCERNS!
Thats interesting but I don't pvp, must have me confused with someone else...
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all. The fact of the matter is, I have enough AD to bis any toon I like in about half an hour, without even worrying about how much I am spending. I also have a good group of friends and can run through any content on any toon. I care more about balance then making 1 particular toon over perform.
You would nerf the Paladin even more? Now this is the most major display of insolence Ive seen since this thread was started. Looks like a professional pvp troll has emerged from under his bridge and made his way on to our feedback thread. The devs only listed what they plan to do and yet you, in your great wisdom, already know what effect those changes will have on the game thus you rebuke them before they are even implemented/tested/ and actually dare to suggest further nerfs to the class... Amazing. Please pick up your orb and get on your merry way back to the wizard feedback thread.
The increase in dps and decrease to Block wouldnt have been my choise fixes but obviously thats the best the devs can come up with for the moment. Personally Id keep the 30% dmg reduction and instead focus on making things like auras and feats useful. And of course D recovery.
AND I WILL REPEAT /in caps/ WHAT I ALREADY SAID SOME PAGES BACK ON THIS THREAD - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT DEVISING CLASS BALANCING CHANGES BASED ON PVP CONCERNS!
You're right. I remember him as well as he trolled in the topic about OP in before 15 module. Evidently he wants to influence our disadvantage, and he plays in a different class. I have no words for such boorish behavior
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all. The fact of the matter is, I have enough AD to bis any toon I like in about half an hour, without even worrying about how much I am spending. I also have a good group of friends and can run through any content on any toon. I care more about balance then making 1 particular toon over perform.
You would nerf the Paladin even more? Now this is the most major display of insolence Ive seen since this thread was started. Looks like a professional pvp troll has emerged from under his bridge and made his way on to our feedback thread. The devs only listed what they plan to do and yet you, in your great wisdom, already know what effect those changes will have on the game thus you rebuke them before they are even implemented/tested/ and actually dare to suggest further nerfs to the class... Amazing. Please pick up your orb and get on your merry way back to the wizard feedback thread.
The increase in dps and decrease to Block wouldnt have been my choise fixes but obviously thats the best the devs can come up with for the moment. Personally Id keep the 30% dmg reduction and instead focus on making things like auras and feats useful. And of course D recovery.
AND I WILL REPEAT /in caps/ WHAT I ALREADY SAID SOME PAGES BACK ON THIS THREAD - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT DEVISING CLASS BALANCING CHANGES BASED ON PVP CONCERNS!
Thats interesting but I don't pvp, must have me confused with someone else...
Also, my suggestions are from a PVE PoV.
Hey man, you probably did a quick read over the last 20 pages right? At least you should have since you came to post on a specific class Feedback thread. The general consensus reached here by actual paladin main players, is that the tank path in its current preview form, is practically broken. We all state it is broken, some of us more passionately than others and we rightfully demand it fixed. Yet you come here and state the tank path is not only OK but in need of futher nerfing. What do you think such statement will evoke? What reaction are you seeking here? Meaningful discussion or heated argument with insults thrown in? You are actively stirring HAMSTER up. That is troll behaviour by definition.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all. The fact of the matter is, I have enough AD to bis any toon I like in about half an hour, without even worrying about how much I am spending. I also have a good group of friends and can run through any content on any toon. I care more about balance then making 1 particular toon over perform.
You would nerf the Paladin even more? Now this is the most major display of insolence Ive seen since this thread was started. Looks like a professional pvp troll has emerged from under his bridge and made his way on to our feedback thread. The devs only listed what they plan to do and yet you, in your great wisdom, already know what effect those changes will have on the game thus you rebuke them before they are even implemented/tested/ and actually dare to suggest further nerfs to the class... Amazing. Please pick up your orb and get on your merry way back to the wizard feedback thread.
The increase in dps and decrease to Block wouldnt have been my choise fixes but obviously thats the best the devs can come up with for the moment. Personally Id keep the 30% dmg reduction and instead focus on making things like auras and feats useful. And of course D recovery.
AND I WILL REPEAT /in caps/ WHAT I ALREADY SAID SOME PAGES BACK ON THIS THREAD - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT DEVISING CLASS BALANCING CHANGES BASED ON PVP CONCERNS!
Thats interesting but I don't pvp, must have me confused with someone else...
Also, my suggestions are from a PVE PoV.
Ok then lets then get a few things stright.
You play dps class(es) and you go into a tank/heal forum asking for nerfs while testing and evaluation is still going on for the tanks.
I will remind you that the set up is they game aims for is 3/1/1 making dps 3 times as wanted we have 3 pure dps classes and 3 classes which can opt for tank 2 of then can be used as dps and then 1 as healer then we have 2 more classes that can be either healer or dps.
Now you speak of end content and being bis let be honest here a 10% gap in dps will be enought for people that aim for being the best to pick pure dps before any other role that is not reguired period.
If you can run privete queue faster with 3 dps 1 tank 1 healer it will be the set up if you can run it with 1 tank 4 dps or 1 healer 4 dps it will also be done.
In the worst case scenario you are opting for self desctruct as IF they nerf defence enough on dps classes the privite queue might even op to use either 2 tanks or 2 healer with only 2 dps or even replace hr cw tr sw for either dc/dps or barbarian/worrier dps wich have more survivability with only 1 dps.
The game giving more to what kind of character type you want to play that is I want to look feel and play like a tank or hr or cw should be the main reason why you play that class not that I want to be able to out dps everything in the game.
If you continue down the line of your reasoning you either put dps classes in a much worse spot or make tanks obsolet in all but hard group content.
I also strongly suggest you stay and focus on your forum asking for fixes that let you play your class the way you feel is good and stay out of trying to get other classes nerfed.
ps this conversation thread is best moved to general feedback as it has nothing to do with giving feedback to how paladins perform or buggfixes.
@thefabricant I’ve done enough testing and playing over the years and interacted in game on live and in play test with your circle.
Here’s the thing, you are elite players in this game. Your experience of the game is nothing like the rest of us.
I’m an ok to good player, but I simply lack the skills to be an elite player.
The game will always be trivial to you, if it’s playable by average players.
Live OP the game is trivial for me, and I’m not BIS and my AD coffer runs on empty.
The current game state on 16 is, outside bugs, reasonable. Developing a modicum of skill and experience with the class(es) makes the game work well, and the changes across the board should help with this (due to the increased difficulty of content when levelling).
I’m not sure that the dev’s proposal for all tanks this week is the right one. I think the 30% debuff visible in your ACT logs is about right for a range of player skills. It just needs a way to be mitigated further while not in a party, such as by the passive that buffs solo damage having its buff increased (and likely turned off in content designed for parties to stop tanks soloing 5 man content regularly).
I look forward to seeing your data backed results of testing after the patch. Comparison of before and after should tell the truth of the effect.
I’m frankly far more worried about the HP and Block changes than the dps, as the dps is much easier to tune up or down.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I am guessing this is a bug, so I'll put it here and you can decide...
My Oathkeeper (again, bad name, please change) has Bane and Smite on their action bar. Whenever I can not use those powers their divinity cost appears in the slot.
For Bane it is 270. For Smite it is 198.
l have not noticed this before and am wondering if it is something in settings or if it supposed to show at all.
This is an intentional quality of life improvement, of course, we're open to feedback if you found this to not be helpful, or even worse—frustrating. Changes like this are going to happen since we went to preview earlier than usual, and some things like this overlay, were planned months and months ago, but the UI team is just now getting to them.
It's not a problem, I just hadn't seen it before so I was wondering if it was supposed to be there.
But it would be much more helpful if we could actually see where our Divinity was number-wise.
Smite takes 198 Divinity? Great. How much do I have? No idea. The bar is up to about *there*. However much that is.
The UI doesn't give me the numbers I need to make a truly informed decision. I just get to guess how close I might be to having whatever amount of Divinity I am needing for whatever power.
Now, give me a small Divinity bar above my action bar? That would tell me exactly what I had, the powers would tell me what I needed, and I could make more informed decisions based on that. Maybe add such a bar for Block, too, telling me exactly how much more damage I can absorb.
Putting those numbers on the screen next to the regular Divinity and Block bars might clutter things up and it might not be so easy to pick out those numbers against a background filled with other numbers as you move and turn in combat.
Might make the existing bars redundant, though. There has to be a good way to incorporate the current bar design and adding numbers that tell me exactly how much Divinity I have and exactly how much more damage I can block.
Justicar's Charge's reduction to damage dealt will be reduced to 10% (down from 30%) and it will now grant a 40% increase to maximum hit points.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
We are considering changes to damage resistance caps, including changes based on role. We are aware of issues related to maxing out DR and related to the difference in survivability between tanks and non-tanks. Though there will not be any changes in this week's build, it is something we are looking at closely and deliberating on how to proceed.
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.
The new group the aim for is 3/1/1 meaning 3 dps one TANK one healer. So how you come to your cunclution I can only guess that you play wizard as main.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
No, here is the fact. You don't need to be able to do the same damage dealer as a dps to do solo content, solo content is trivial. Furthermore, in the new system, the stats provided by enchantments, pets, boons and mounts are trivial compared to the stats provided by flat gear pieces, you can cap most stats with easy to acquire gear.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
I agree the damage output should be less for TANK path then dps path for obvious reasons.
However you however it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
It is trivial, especially so on OP at the moment. I did it on an OP with no gear that had not been touched since m9. The class is already strong and if anything, I would nerf it more. And no, 3/1/1 is not imposed in private queues, otherwise private queues would not exist at all. The fact of the matter is, I have enough AD to bis any toon I like in about half an hour, without even worrying about how much I am spending. I also have a good group of friends and can run through any content on any toon. I care more about balance then making 1 particular toon over perform.
You would nerf the Paladin even more? Now this is the most major display of insolence Ive seen since this thread was started. Looks like a professional pvp troll has emerged from under his bridge and made his way on to our feedback thread. The devs only listed what they plan to do and yet you, in your great wisdom, already know what effect those changes will have on the game thus you rebuke them before they are even implemented/tested/ and actually dare to suggest further nerfs to the class... Amazing. Please pick up your orb and get on your merry way back to the wizard feedback thread.
The increase in dps and decrease to Block wouldnt have been my choise fixes but obviously thats the best the devs can come up with for the moment. Personally Id keep the 30% dmg reduction and instead focus on making things like auras and feats useful. And of course D recovery.
AND I WILL REPEAT /in caps/ WHAT I ALREADY SAID SOME PAGES BACK ON THIS THREAD - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT DEVISING CLASS BALANCING CHANGES BASED ON PVP CONCERNS!
You're right. I remember him as well as he trolled in the topic about OP in before 15 module. Evidently he wants to influence our disadvantage, and he plays in a different class. I have no words for such boorish behavior
He's playtested, put together, and provided input on guides for the OP class and has he mentioned - his friend is also another theorycrafter and probably one of the best OPs in the game. Now that's not to say that I agree with his latest proposal but he DOES do his homework.
@thefabricant I’ve done enough testing and playing over the years and interacted in game on live and in play test with your circle.
Here’s the thing, you are elite players in this game. Your experience of the game is nothing like the rest of us.
I’m an ok to good player, but I simply lack the skills to be an elite player.
The game will always be trivial to you, if it’s playable by average players.
Live OP the game is trivial for me, and I’m not BIS and my AD coffer runs on empty.
The current game state on 16 is, outside bugs, reasonable. Developing a modicum of skill and experience with the class(es) makes the game work well, and the changes across the board should help with this (due to the increased difficulty of content when levelling).
I’m not sure that the dev’s proposal for all tanks this week is the right one. I think the 30% debuff visible in your ACT logs is about right for a range of player skills. It just needs a way to be mitigated further while not in a party, such as by the passive that buffs solo damage having its buff increased (and likely turned off in content designed for parties to stop tanks soloing 5 man content regularly).
I look forward to seeing your data backed results of testing after the patch. Comparison of before and after should tell the truth of the effect.
I’m frankly far more worried about the HP and Block changes than the dps, as the dps is much easier to tune up or down.
@obsidiancran3 And that exactly why my feedback here should be taken seriously. Think of it this way, I have nothing to gain or lose from OP being nerfed. I can play whatever class I like, I have people to run with, I am never going to struggle to have a group and on the offhand chance I wanted to play OP, I could be bis within 30 minutes, just the time it takes me to buy the gear. The devs cannot nerf me. That means I also have no interest in which class is the best here. My feedback here is purely from, "what will be meta in m16," pov, looking at what impact that will have on the average player.
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
/snip
You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
I have to disagree quite strongly here. On preview I quite often sit around behind my shield to build up divinity. During this time I do exactly 0 (zero) damage while the dps can keep going. Additionaly I have to slot some abilities for snap aggro or survivabily so I lose out some possible damage there, too. Also tanks might have to invest more points in survivability insted of pure damage as DpS-characters might.
Overall it might be even a change to benefit damage dealers as well as they will have to worry about pulling aggro and getting smashed. Especially if dungeons are more designed to call for the 3+1+1 group.
@thefabricant I’ve done enough testing and playing over the years and interacted in game on live and in play test with your circle.
Here’s the thing, you are elite players in this game. Your experience of the game is nothing like the rest of us.
I’m an ok to good player, but I simply lack the skills to be an elite player.
The game will always be trivial to you, if it’s playable by average players.
Live OP the game is trivial for me, and I’m not BIS and my AD coffer runs on empty.
The current game state on 16 is, outside bugs, reasonable. Developing a modicum of skill and experience with the class(es) makes the game work well, and the changes across the board should help with this (due to the increased difficulty of content when levelling).
I’m not sure that the dev’s proposal for all tanks this week is the right one. I think the 30% debuff visible in your ACT logs is about right for a range of player skills. It just needs a way to be mitigated further while not in a party, such as by the passive that buffs solo damage having its buff increased (and likely turned off in content designed for parties to stop tanks soloing 5 man content regularly).
I look forward to seeing your data backed results of testing after the patch. Comparison of before and after should tell the truth of the effect.
I’m frankly far more worried about the HP and Block changes than the dps, as the dps is much easier to tune up or down.
@obsidiancran3 And that exactly why my feedback here should be taken seriously. Think of it this way, I have nothing to gain or lose from OP being nerfed. I can play whatever class I like, I have people to run with, I am never going to struggle to have a group and on the offhand chance I wanted to play OP, I could be bis within 30 minutes, just the time it takes me to buy the gear. The devs cannot nerf me. That means I also have no interest in which class is the best here. My feedback here is purely from, "what will be meta in m16," pov, looking at what impact that will have on the average player.
You are not entierly truthful here "on the offhand chanse" is because you prefere to play dps if your main had been OP we would not see you write this in this forum. This ofc does not mean you do not have a point but as I have written above you are missing the big picure of this change and you continue to hammer in arguement that support YOUR way of seeing things and leaving out the other side.
Let things hammer out until we are at getting CLOSE to what will go live as it is now to much is going to get changed for us to argue about the final balance among classes it is enough to just try to fix what is broken/faulty in each forum on that particular class.
I will however press my issue about be carful what you wish for to less defence on dps and to less dps on tanks will by no means make this game more popular.....
Comments
I'm playing as I potentially will on live, with my current level 70 gear, replacing with appropriate blue and green gear as it becomes available. I'm literally getting chewed up in the final zone. Any particular reason why this new campaign isn't giving nice blue gear at the end of each section, like elemental evil did? Blue pants and shirt are about it.... Any reason why the new provided undermountain weapons are lower IL than what I currently have?
This change is very, very bad without also additionally reducing the magnitudes of all OPs skills by an additional 20% to keep them in the same relative position and here is why. In order to justify bringing along a damage dealer, they need to do a large enough amount more damage then a tank to offset the loss in survivability. If there is only a 10% damage difference between a damage dealer and tank and tanks have higher durability than a dps, there is very little incentive to play a DpS.
Combined with this: You have a situation where DpS classes are basically second rate citizens. Already it is a case where a pure DpS is fundamentally disadvantaged because you have 1 less role then a support and now you are proposing they are mechanically disadvantaged as well? It is fine for them to have a different damage resistance cap on its own, provided they are also sufficiently penalized.
And to all the people complaining about the fact that you play a "DpS OP" on live, you don't. I know DpS OPs who probably play the class much better than you do, they do at most 40% of a real dps. Going from 40% to 70% of a real DpS is already an improvement. On live such an adjustment already exists, its just hidden and you don't see it. And no, its not alright for you to be able to tank and DpS unless there is some significant downside to it, for example, being glassier than a dps if you get hit and then giving the class many reflex based mechanics which can grant damage immunity. In this case you either get your timing right or instantly die. I don't see why tanks should be able to DpS as this creates a clear role superiority.
My suggestion is as follows:
- Tanks do 50% the damage of an actual damage dealer, this is not listed on the tooltip. Instead, add a bonus to dps classes that lists them as doing 200% the damage of a support class. This creates the illusion that the DpS of a tank is not reduced (thus minimizing QQ), just like it is on live, whilst still having the same net result.
- Tanks generate 3x normal aggro. So if a hit of 100 generates 1 aggro for a dps, for a tank it generates 3 aggro and a hit of 50 would generate 1.5 aggro.
- Than add whatever survivability bonuses you like to a tank.
The fact of the matter is, OP is in a decent state on preview and it can hold aggro, it is too strong on live. The only place it had to go, going from module 15 to 16 was down.Dealing only 3 times (down from 5) coupled with 50% of our DPS (down from 70%) to generate aggro won't be wise according to me. OP will generate aggro 1,5 his theorical damage down from 3,5. A DPS class will maximise his damage multiplier with critical strike, combat advantage and accuracy. The chance of making a totally maximized damage is thin but it happens. According to Janne website you can achieve a x5 or very near. To keep aggro, the OP needs to do "aggro" damage as high as the DPS do exactly at the same time. As a result, the DPS may be one shot. May be a small margin will be usefull to preserve the DPS.
I tried to solo 3 crystals and this mode definitely need a group to get trough since my DPS was not sufficient enough, but when I look at survivability then it's ok (at least for me).. and had to abort the run.
Went back in with 2 Crystals (Balance and Rage) and went trough with ease, (trash) mobs where hitting pretty hard but was doable... The bosses are too weak imho compared to trash mobs and could be adjusted up a bit (considering when going in normally with a group)
Unfortunately the worst thing happened, got Remorhaz as end boss (hope it will be fixed soon), he fled again and never returned.. I had to abort this run too..
Bad thing is that I run out of Balance Crystals quickly this way, so I have to ask around if I can group up with someone so I can get access again to Balanced Crystals...
Anyhow, The tanking part looks ok (for me) considering survivability.
Lets forget about companion set up and that 90 % of the players never reach bis where you can come near capping all stats and that Tanks need to invest in defence stats instad of offensive stats, lets forget about aoe damge where dps is already doing tons of more damage lets forget that tanks need to be in melee range and just take the fact that some wants to play tank and as the majority playes almost exlusivly SOLO doing quest in this game.
You suggest that those that play tank should take twice as long to do solo quest because you feel the need to be superior to the tanks in dps.
Here is the fact.
As long as you can SURVIVE playing the game there is NO dissadvantage to having more dps then a tank and that will go for 90+% of this game. Having less dps will be a dissadvantage to 100% of all thing in this game.
With all respect there are plenty of more reasons why your suggestion is one sided and way out of line and I am a bit suprised to see this suggestion from somebody that imo should know better.
Best
Hello @asterdahl and thank you as always for the time invested in keeping contact with us.
My bad, I just happened to fail in noticing it but there is actually a certain divinity regeneration in combat other than blocking incoming hits. The small scale of it is actually reasonable when taken in perspective of the general coodowns for non divinity fueled encounters.
Thank you for the insight, but please keep in mind that Sally the DPS's gameplay is focused completely in dishing out the maximum possible amount of damage through use of her powers, while Jane will have to switch from a more aggressive stance to a defensive one while blocking. Jane, though, is a Fighter that has the ability to keep up with threat generation using her Guarded Strike and her Shield Bash. Barbie the Sentinel, were she filling in the role of tank, would instead be able to block with Sentinel's Slash, dishing out 85 magnitude AoE hits linked to the use of this at-will; more than that, she would use autoblocking, CC immune Unstoppable frames to climb up the threat chart while free to use dailies, encounters and faster at-wills.
Paladins, on the other hand, stop completely in their tracks in building threat when blocking. While the other tank classes feature blocking mechanics that allow them to partially keep up with DPS/healing classes aggro-wise, Paladins are completely unable to hold the pace and have to resort to hard taunts to cope with it. Being time limited, hard taunts are a transitory solution to this lack of threat generation during block frames. This can lead to a constant struggle to hold the topmost position in the aggro chart, which is a priority for a functional tank class.
In addiction to that, the absence of additional mechanics linked to Paladin's block give the feeling of passivity that the other tank classes don't share; I believe this is one of the main reasons many Paladin players feel their class to be exceedingly turtlish. The old OP's gameplay allowed for short and situational uses of their shield to gain CC immunity or party DR buff frames, so the lack of any addictional features was not an issue. The new mechanics force Paladins to invest much more time using the shield and thus, being unable to do anything else besides soaking damage, feels way too passive and grants no flavour to their playstyle.
My suggestion is to grant some uniqueness to the Justicar's blocking mechanic on the same basis featured by Vanguards and Sentinels. It could be some kind of holy intervention following a charging time, a shield risposte, a CC effect or actually anything capable of giving Justicars a specific flavour when using their shield. Granting a special aspect to the Justicar's block would help a lot in reducing its passiveness and, ultimately, the "basic tank" feel it has now.
The other fact is that private queues exist, which will follow a meta and in a system where 1 class has a clear advantage over another (does not die easily), it will probably get chosen over other options even if it does slightly less dps. This happens on live already (I am looking at you gwf), the class has less burst then a gf or CW, but it gets favoured because it dies less easily due to temp hp which causes it to have a higher paingiver score in your random party (not the case for premades).
I know better then to let a tank do the same dps as a dps, 90% is such a small difference that even getting unlucky on weapon damage rolls could skew damage in the OPs favour, or any other number of small factors. I know that different roles should have disadvantages and there is a reason that in conventional MMOs the tank does do significantly less damage, as does the healer.
https://i.imgur.com/Tb57nW9.png Or fix this
As for me, I only want OP to be a good tank and I don't want him to be outclassed.
In my opinion he doesn't need a DPS spec, but rather solid damage reduction skills that would benefit party
so that he'll be useful and wanted for the dungeon runs.
I'm waiting. I hope that tanks won't be at the top of DPS charts anymore, but they'll be required to progress through the dungeons.
I also hope that they won't be able to stand by themselves and tank everything without a healer.
I simply please to make OP's gameplay more varied rather than standing still while holding shift or using skills without any rotation as it is now.
However you it is not easy to CAP all stats both defencive and offensive without a considerable amount of time and/or money.
Solo content is by no way trival as most of this and even if I have no numbers it is my guess that of all playtime the majority is made by players soloing quests. And lets not forget that the PUG are forced to 3/1/1 making room for 3 dps 1 tank by default.
Gf and Gwf has access to dps path Op however has not. Now ADD to this that dps will only have to gear for dps while Tanks need to have 2 set ups to get the best out of their dps and tank paths. With this it is when you start a character already easer to pick a dps class when it comes to gearing it up.
There are several more aspect to this "new" game mod 16 will become that makes it a altogether to big dissadvantage for such a huge gap 50% would create.
As long as they impose 3/1/1 and that dps has a higher dps then tanks ( that is not going to change) the reason you mention above is non void.
Best
Add to that the survivability of the Cw is more then high enough to claer any trash also so in masters exp. Yes there will be private queues but that to not remove the pug ones.
As long as dps classes do more dps and have enough survivability they will still have the advantage of range, aoe, less gear and will do all solo quest faster hence will be an easer time gear up.
Dps has a bigger role now that they remove the stacking buff system then in mod 15 making it impractical to stack utility in groups compared to dps.
Again yes tanks should do less damage then pure dps classes but if you take into account the inherited dissadvantages of having to gear for 2 different roles(tanks) having to fight in melee range having less aoe among others 50% less damage is a total overkill and would make those that play tanks suffer for no other reason than that making dps classes feel good about their higher dps.
Are you willing to cut the survivability of all dps classes with 50% harcapping def and deflect ?
What you suggest is making solo play a pain for either tanks or if reducing defence for dps also all dps classes.
There are games where this excist you simply need a tank, dps and healer to run the content as tanks can not kill fast enough and tanks/healers can not kill fast enough it is no fun for any involved.
I think you are argueing for dps is being able to have higher damge with very little or no dissadvantages and those that play tank will take the consequences which in my book is not fair.
If dps classes does more damage then tanks with all other benifits there are of playing a class with range aoe easer to gear etc that is more then enough having tank classes taking twice as long to clear content is taking it to far.
Best
1. Dps classes gets their defence nerfed but it is still enough to survive both solo and in group setting not effecting much and tanks gets nerfed in dps that will make them suffer in all solo play. This is the best case scenario.
2. The nerf in defence makes it impossible to survive any group content for dps where the tank is not able to hold aggro as the content must be a challlange enough to threaten the tank but the dps can not survive due to to low defence. Soloing becomes a pain for both dps and tanks as tanks takes forever to kill mobs and dps has a hard time surviving making people at least duo simple solo quest.
I understand your concern about tanks being equal in damage as dps classes but your suggestion leads to a game where you only play group content and Neverwinter is not such a game.
In this game solo play is a major player and making to a to large gap in such a game is only going to lead to what we had before the class flawor of the month/year. If one class or genre of classes perform overall much better then any other the cry for nerf or boost becomes and endless circle such as it has been the last 4 years. THIS is what they are moving away from.
With all due respect if this game is moving forward in the direction stated by the devs there is no room for pure tanks no damage pure dps no defence(ofc it is very little damage and very little defence but you get the meaning).
Best
I fully realize and understand that NW is a much faster paced action game than STO and CO. I was pointing out that out of all the classes available, Paladin had the most convenient-to-use-for-us shift-key mechanic; which the dev team wants to make more active like the other classes... standardization. I do get that, just wanted to let you guys know that this odd-one-out was a huge boon to us (well, mainly to the husband, of course). I threw the issue out here, not really sure if accessibility was considered in this top-down-multi-system-overhaul.
Again, Paladin-on-live is the only class that has this - a non-facing, non-movement reliant feature ... so yeah I fully see you guys wanting to standardize it with the rest. Not happy, but understanding. I, unfortunately, will most likely not be able to convince him to test it out on preview (he isn't fond of spoilers) but if the mechanic (by that i only mean movement/facing) is like the Fighter (and the guardian fighter on live); we already know how that works.
And I also realize you have your hands full with the mechanics of the class in this thread (and all the others!) and that we are talking more about accessibility now, so just one last request on the subject but before that I need to answer your question: we play on PC only (controller is a no-go).
And here is the request:
have a toggle/keybind that increases the mouse sensitivity by a customizable amount. That will let him turn it on during combat for when he has to turn to face enemies; and have it off when doing other interactions. Maybe there is a way to keybind this already via console-commands?
Edit: in regards to the request, got a suggestion to try a gaming-mouse instead, hopefully that is a better/easier solution
> Went back in with 2 Crystals (Balance and Rage) and went trough with ease, (trash) mobs where hitting pretty hard but was doable... The bosses are too weak imho compared to trash mobs and could be adjusted up a bit (considering when going in normally with a group)
> Unfortunately the worst thing happened, got Remorhaz as end boss (hope it will be fixed soon), he fled again and never returned.. I had to abort this run too..
> Bad thing is that I run out of Balance Crystals quickly this way, so I have to ask around if I can group up with someone so I can get access again to Balanced Crystals...
>
> Anyhow, The tanking part looks ok (for me) considering survivability.
I’m on for 3-4 hours after reset (on live) each day and have 2 toons (Warlock and Paly) with a set of crystals. Happy to get together and hit stuff.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
The increase in dps and decrease to Block wouldnt have been my choise fixes but obviously thats the best the devs can come up with for the moment. Personally Id keep the 30% dmg reduction and instead focus on making things like auras and feats useful. And of course D recovery.
AND I WILL REPEAT /in caps/ WHAT I ALREADY SAID SOME PAGES BACK ON THIS THREAD - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT DEVISING CLASS BALANCING CHANGES BASED ON PVP CONCERNS!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Also, my suggestions are from a PVE PoV.
Yet you come here and state the tank path is not only OK but in need of futher nerfing. What do you think such statement will evoke? What reaction are you seeking here? Meaningful discussion or heated argument with insults thrown in? You are actively stirring HAMSTER up. That is troll behaviour by definition.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Here’s the thing, you are elite players in this game. Your experience of the game is nothing like the rest of us.
I’m an ok to good player, but I simply lack the skills to be an elite player.
The game will always be trivial to you, if it’s playable by average players.
Live OP the game is trivial for me, and I’m not BIS and my AD coffer runs on empty.
The current game state on 16 is, outside bugs, reasonable. Developing a modicum of skill and experience with the class(es) makes the game work well, and the changes across the board should help with this (due to the increased difficulty of content when levelling).
I’m not sure that the dev’s proposal for all tanks this week is the right one. I think the 30% debuff visible in your ACT logs is about right for a range of player skills. It just needs a way to be mitigated further while not in a party, such as by the passive that buffs solo damage having its buff increased (and likely turned off in content designed for parties to stop tanks soloing 5 man content regularly).
I look forward to seeing your data backed results of testing after the patch. Comparison of before and after should tell the truth of the effect.
I’m frankly far more worried about the HP and Block changes than the dps, as the dps is much easier to tune up or down.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
But it would be much more helpful if we could actually see where our Divinity was number-wise.
Smite takes 198 Divinity? Great. How much do I have? No idea. The bar is up to about *there*. However much that is.
The UI doesn't give me the numbers I need to make a truly informed decision. I just get to guess how close I might be to having whatever amount of Divinity I am needing for whatever power.
Now, give me a small Divinity bar above my action bar? That would tell me exactly what I had, the powers would tell me what I needed, and I could make more informed decisions based on that.
Maybe add such a bar for Block, too, telling me exactly how much more damage I can absorb.
Putting those numbers on the screen next to the regular Divinity and Block bars might clutter things up and it might not be so easy to pick out those numbers against a background filled with other numbers as you move and turn in combat.
Might make the existing bars redundant, though. There has to be a good way to incorporate the current bar design and adding numbers that tell me exactly how much Divinity I have and exactly how much more damage I can block.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
And that exactly why my feedback here should be taken seriously. Think of it this way, I have nothing to gain or lose from OP being nerfed. I can play whatever class I like, I have people to run with, I am never going to struggle to have a group and on the offhand chance I wanted to play OP, I could be bis within 30 minutes, just the time it takes me to buy the gear. The devs cannot nerf me. That means I also have no interest in which class is the best here. My feedback here is purely from, "what will be meta in m16," pov, looking at what impact that will have on the average player.
Overall it might be even a change to benefit damage dealers as well as they will have to worry about pulling aggro and getting smashed. Especially if dungeons are more designed to call for the 3+1+1 group.
Let things hammer out until we are at getting CLOSE to what will go live as it is now to much is going to get changed for us to argue about the final balance among classes it is enough to just try to fix what is broken/faulty in each forum on that particular class.
I will however press my issue about be carful what you wish for to less defence on dps and to less dps on tanks will by no means make this game more popular.....