I don't know if the Devs know better than the players that use their service. But if the Devs are willing to do the absolutely last ditch effort of revamping their entire core game, then you'd think they would have reason to. As much as I lack faith in Game Devs in general, even I would baulk at thinking of Devs shooting themselves in the chest just for the fun of it.
The devs don't always know how players are -using- their game better than the players, sure. Devs might be out of touch with metagaming, or unaware of public sentiment below the direct surface.
HOWEVER- my point in this post is that game developers, this team in particular, are PROFESSIONALS with years of experience. Assuming this rolls out as described, the tiny number of people upset by the loss of things like Lifesteal and the old feat system will be far outstripped by the huge number of people able to properly get into the game and enjoy a build type that was previously far less viable. Not just that, but even if they lose HALF of the current population- the resultant core game will be a healthier, more complete product from a development and balancing standpoint; they'd easily recoup those losses in a handful of months pulling in players they lost to previous states of the game, and new players entirely, simply by tweaking the new, more robust systems. And THAT is the important thing to take away here: Realize it or not, there are a lot of barriers in the way of the game being truly awesome. The devs are seemingly tired of those barriers and taking a wrecking ball to 'em so they can deliver a better and better game as time rolls on.
Sorry if my post seemed to be a criticism of your OP. I was saying that in reply to stromson. I actually agree with your post. Except that maybe I don't have as much faith as you do in the Devs. I agree with their intent, I'm just not 100% sure they going to be able to do it without a lot of tears and tragedy
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grogthemagnifMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,651Arc User
looks like your post was removed entirely. was trying to quote it but it seems to be gone.
Weird, I don't believe I stated something which is against the forum rules
Your comment had found it's way to the spam queue for editing it too quickly. It's been restored and your account has been verified so it shouldn't happen to you again. Sorry about that.
Now, how about slowing down the launcher so i can actually get to Preview without haveing to recover from a crash and Force Verify. 1 second to switch shards is a little too fast.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
You are precisely the same group of people that resulted in the dumpster fire that was Mod 6- [blah blah blah] - this one is shaping up to be really different.
Actually we got all the disasters in mod 6 because the devs chose to ignore player input and do a bunch of things that were completely uncalled for and which nobody wanted.
Which is precisely the case with most of the changes advertised for mod 16 and most of the problems we've had since mod 6. Devs ignore player input, do something uncalled for and unwanted, and it causes problems.
The only reason the game remains at all playable is that every now and then a dev listens to players and avoid making a pointless, disastrous chance. I forget the name of the dev who got fired because he actually started to take players seriously about the HR rework that was promised with mod 10 but not given the necessary budget or time, but because of him we avoided a lot of terrible ideas.
Blaming players for the devs' mistakes and bad decisions probably forced on them by management has no basis in fact or logic, so your rant will serve no purpose at all and is completely nonconstructive. You want to consume whatever's put in front of you? Have a nice life eating pink slime hamburgers and drinking instant coffee made with lead in the water. Some of us aren't afraid to imagine better things.
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minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
Thank you, completely agreed, could not have said it any better.
Besides, the people complaining are SOME of the bis (or near) players that worry they will have to go through a huge rebuild to get back there. It's simply personal interest, nothing more (perfect example in the comment above about Movement and Dark enchantments). Anyone thinking their outrage about something that they haven't even tried is anything other than personal interest, is just kidding themselves.
Actually this mod is OK for them, the people it absolutely crucifies are people with lots of midrange characters rather than one BiS, I have 16 characters 12-15.8K, and rebuilding, relearning and reequipping them all when they're effectively getting about a 2-3K nerf to their effectiveness just has me at a complete loss.
Its a pitty really. There are many good things done in mod16, some really extraordinaire well designed quests and dungeons.
They should have changed things bit by bit, to get everyone slowly to shift to the new system they want to.. not everything at the same time.
Some good level designers there.. just a bad game system..
Problem is, the game systems were unrecoverable and rapidly deteriorating. Doing this all at once means yes, players have to take a big leap into a pretty much totally new game. But at the same time, we don't have to deal with an in-between phase where everything is even worse.
While i agree that recovery and lifesteal made it so that the game needed to change drastically, i just flat out disagree with the way they changed combat system. Why removing LS and Recovery had to go along with the fact that i no longer have fun while pushing QER?
The combat feels now slow. Really slow. It's ok to have long cooldowns, i dont mind. But remember we have 3 encounters... So what am I supposed to do while waiting for divinity to refill and encounters to recharge? Do my dishes? Throw my water balloons from Summer festival at mobs? Use the wand from AI campaign to try to get the butterflies to pop?
Some people are not "crying" like you say because they lost their holy LS recovery and perma daily. Some people like me are complaining because the combat feels boring. Its slow paced. That was in my opinion the strength of Neverwinter. Always has been the combat system.
I am pretty sure some players like me went to try other mmorpgs in past years (im playing since closed beta) but i always came back here because I love how it feels when im pushing my QER... Mod 16 for now is removing that. Thats my biggest issue.
This is a well written opening post, I couldn't have done that better.. Kudo's As for Life steal and Recovery goes and their removal from Mod 16, I do not shed a single tear about these removals (which affects me too, as being a OP).
Let me start to state that I am an so called "old school player", which means (in my case) that I am a totally pure tank/heal OP (no power based hybrid with 200k HP). The result I have is being able to literally absorb massive amounts of incoming damage in Prot mode. The result I have is being able to literally dish out massive amounts towards the group in Dev mode. To be able to do this I am carrying 2 sets of gear (enchanted and all)… People I group with on a regular base are knowing what I am talking about.
Life steal, is something which has ruined (imho) this game for the simple reason that this thing made the pure healers almost become obsolete, especially considering the high demands of buffing's... Most of them (who I know) where forced to swap to Buffing/DPS.. A Cleric shouldn't have to take the DPS role, there are other classes for that part.
Recovery, same thing as Life steal... It shouldn't be needed in this game. At this point I am forced to maintain a high recovery gain just for the sole reason to be able to shield the group for incoming damage (a light and a heavy one). Downside of this is that players (knowing that they are buffed to the max and being shielded by tank) have become lazy and just keep standing in boss empowered attack's (red) Same thing count's for GF's when they have KV activated..
By stripping these two stats from game will force players to play the role their char is designed for and play the game as it should be by adjusting their playstyle to the game, instead of the other way around... Which made the mess as it is at current state. I think the K-team weekly runs are a small taste on what is coming in mod 16, it forces players to play as it should be, especially at dynamic boss mechanics (ECC and EGWD as example)..
It is about time that a game like this is receiving a massive overhaul and bring back the thrilling challenges dungeons can give. For players who are not agreed with these upcoming changes in Neverwinter I say, There are many other MMO's available.
Rest me to say, I really looking forward to mod 16... So I wil have the challenge again to die in battle, instead of committing suicide when I am the only one standing, caused by lazy people.
Before I forget, Dev's should also work on disabling that frigging DPS list window during fights, which will result that players are more focused on what is really happening during a fight.
Nice post now can you go to preview play your paladin and if you can come up with the same positive feedback I will give you some credit... If you like 99% so far reach another conclution it would be nice to hear that also.
I play this game because I want to play this game. I don't play anything else because I have no desire to learn a new game or start over. This might be a change needed in Neverwinter to keep the game alive, but it's not one I look forward to.
This mod would be less damaging to many established players if they weren't HAMSTER us on everything we've grinded out. I worked hard to save up my AD to buy my pets MW rings. 10 MW rings at 1Mil each on my tigers, a very bitter pill to swallow.
Those 5 toons have 6 rank 13/14 enchantments on their pets. WTF do I do with 30 high rank enchants that aren't worth a HAMSTER on my pets anymore nor are they worth anything on the AH anymore... Tell me why I shouldn't be upset. You go buy something, use it for a little while, then have the store disable the device and tell you to bad so sad... Anyone in their right mind would be upset by this.
Amen! I am tired of hearing people complain about this. This is needed and welcome! I can actually use my DC for what it is suppose to be not just sit back and pop some daily's and watch everyone else do the work. Is it really fun to speed run through T9, Cradle or Castle Ravenloft… Where is the fun in that. Bring on Mod 16! I am just sad I am on Xbox and have to wait even longer since It will hit PC first.
By the sounds of that statement your not playing your DC right already lol I love playing my DC as he sits! Recently stripped my DO loadout but rock my 17k AC daily!
all the people agreeing with the original posters are not seing the big picture just like the original poster.
it's not about the enchants (i mean some players would be salty about that.) it's not about the Lifesteal and Recovery being removed, but it's about having such huge changes to the worst. i'll have my CW as example: i've used both paragons one for single target (mof) and one for aoe(SS) but in instances such as CODG i dont have a campfire to switch mof/ss so either i do damage in the first stage or i do damage in the boss stage. my feats had the same core path but it still had differences that made 1 loadout better for single target vs aoe. so i go to my powers tab and i find out that all my encounters got halved. i cant do a flexible aoe when i'm on mof or a single target when i'm on ss. the feats in 1 paragon are the same that i already use on live server, and the other paragon has a usefull feat and a usless feat (so that would be the same 1 sided builds that they wanted to remove).
Boons: they stoped being unique. no utility boons just straight stats and %damage against certain kind of mob.
and for people saying game would be slow "AF" have known that hp in every mob is scaled down and they dont hit as crazy hard as it is in live server.
so that's it with the changes. they are overall good but they are poorly done, that's what most players atleast the player base that took time and effort in learning and thinking forward a build for their respective class. most of those copy build players will be salty with every change.
I mostly agree with this. My main is an 18k DC, and there isn't any solo content I worry about. Group content isn't much better, until the very late stages, but even ToNG has become rote. Myself, and the people I run with are pretty much topped out - we can use our powers - even 'daily' powers - virtually at will, with minimal chance of death.
In short, there is no challenge.
ToO was a nice move in this regard, though - it made us stop and think as a group, and work together. It was (at the later stages) a bit of a challenge for us. We were no longer nigh-invincible. Mistakes could be costly. It was *fun*.
I think there are a lot of players like us who are tired of the binary 'alive or dead' mechanics, and would like a chance to make a mistake that adds to the challenge, but isn't always a fatal error. Where you don't aggro half the dungeon and wipe them out, but laugh about how your group got lucky to survive pulling that second patrol while still fighting the first.
Mod16 is taking players out of the safe bubble we've existed in for so long - using recovery, and AA, and lifesteal as convenient crutches to avoid actually having to play. It will put a lot of emphasis on your ability as a player - to monitor your health, to time your strikes, to avoid standing in the red. I'm personally looking forward to turning off 'god-mode', and getting back to some actual gameplay, and having a good team in dungeons.
I mostly agree with this. My main is an 18k DC, and there isn't any solo content I worry about. Group content isn't much better, until the very late stages, but even ToNG has become rote. Myself, and the people I run with are pretty much topped out - we can use our powers - even 'daily' powers - virtually at will, with minimal chance of death.
In short, there is no challenge.
ToO was a nice move in this regard, though - it made us stop and think as a group, and work together. It was (at the later stages) a bit of a challenge for us. We were no longer nigh-invincible. Mistakes could be costly. It was *fun*.
I think there are a lot of players like us who are tired of the binary 'alive or dead' mechanics, and would like a chance to make a mistake that adds to the challenge, but isn't always a fatal error. Where you don't aggro half the dungeon and wipe them out, but laugh about how your group got lucky to survive pulling that second patrol while still fighting the first.
Mod16 is taking players out of the safe bubble we've existed in for so long - using recovery, and AA, and lifesteal as convenient crutches to avoid actually having to play. It will put a lot of emphasis on your ability as a player - to monitor your health, to time your strikes, to avoid standing in the red. I'm personally looking forward to turning off 'god-mode', and getting back to some actual gameplay, and having a good team in dungeons.
exept as a paladin currently running into red areas to recharge divinity is the way to go, and personally they made the gameplay so boring that i would rather do chores then stomach playing my paladin. immortality in endgame is true, but there are other ways to fix that instead of creating a new game.
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minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
Its a pitty really. There are many good things done in mod16, some really extraordinaire well designed quests and dungeons.
They should have changed things bit by bit, to get everyone slowly to shift to the new system they want to.. not everything at the same time.
Some good level designers there.. just a bad game system..
Problem is, the game systems were unrecoverable and rapidly deteriorating. Doing this all at once means yes, players have to take a big leap into a pretty much totally new game. But at the same time, we don't have to deal with an in-between phase where everything is even worse.
Except that from what I'm seeing, the leap most will make is to another game.
A lot of people are saying that with all build complexity being stripped out, all the good boons we've ground out being removed, the game being MASSIVELY slowed down and basically the removal of rotations, this is not worth playing any more, it's just incredibly dull.
I'm waiting to see how they fix the level scaling, but atm playing solitaire or chess is more fun than the preview server and it's not close.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
That doesn't apply everywhere. At least for Clerics, you are much more tied to specific rotations than you used to be.
For example, when I was playing my DC in "solo" mode, I could use a solo- or AoE-focused encounter whenever required, but now I am always restricted by the number and color of pips I have. My combat is now totally mechanic: 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-3-Tab-1-1-1-1-1-1-4 over and over.
I fully agree with the complaint about build complexity being stripped out. Building a character in D&D is a significant chunk of what I find fun about that game.
Hoping for improvements...
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minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
That doesn't apply everywhere. At least for Clerics, you are much more tied to specific rotations than you used to be.
For example, when I was playing my DC in "solo" mode, I could use a solo- or AoE-focused encounter whenever required, but now I am always restricted by the number and color of pips I have. My combat is now totally mechanic: 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-3-Tab-1-1-1-1-1-1-4 over and over.
I fully agree with the complaint about build complexity being stripped out. Building a character in D&D is a significant chunk of what I find fun about that game.
Cleric is one of the classes I don't play, the only sort I enjoyed was the permashield paladin support action point machine so my cleric hasn't played in a team since that went down the toilet. The characters I've tried are DPS GF, GWF and CW and they're boring as hell.
Comments
Which is precisely the case with most of the changes advertised for mod 16 and most of the problems we've had since mod 6. Devs ignore player input, do something uncalled for and unwanted, and it causes problems.
The only reason the game remains at all playable is that every now and then a dev listens to players and avoid making a pointless, disastrous chance. I forget the name of the dev who got fired because he actually started to take players seriously about the HR rework that was promised with mod 10 but not given the necessary budget or time, but because of him we avoided a lot of terrible ideas.
Blaming players for the devs' mistakes and bad decisions probably forced on them by management has no basis in fact or logic, so your rant will serve no purpose at all and is completely nonconstructive. You want to consume whatever's put in front of you? Have a nice life eating pink slime hamburgers and drinking instant coffee made with lead in the water. Some of us aren't afraid to imagine better things.
Its a pitty really. There are many good things done in mod16, some really extraordinaire well designed quests and dungeons.
They should have changed things bit by bit, to get everyone slowly to shift to the new system they want to.. not everything at the same time.
Some good level designers there.. just a bad game system..
Why removing LS and Recovery had to go along with the fact that i no longer have fun while pushing QER?
The combat feels now slow. Really slow. It's ok to have long cooldowns, i dont mind. But remember we have 3 encounters... So what am I supposed to do while waiting for divinity to refill and encounters to recharge? Do my dishes? Throw my water balloons from Summer festival at mobs? Use the wand from AI campaign to try to get the butterflies to pop?
Some people are not "crying" like you say because they lost their holy LS recovery and perma daily. Some people like me are complaining because the combat feels boring. Its slow paced. That was in my opinion the strength of Neverwinter. Always has been the combat system.
I am pretty sure some players like me went to try other mmorpgs in past years (im playing since closed beta) but i always came back here because I love how it feels when im pushing my QER...
Mod 16 for now is removing that. Thats my biggest issue.
If you like 99% so far reach another conclution it would be nice to hear that also.
This mod would be less damaging to many established players if they weren't HAMSTER us on everything we've grinded out. I worked hard to save up my AD to buy my pets MW rings. 10 MW rings at 1Mil each on my tigers, a very bitter pill to swallow.
Those 5 toons have 6 rank 13/14 enchantments on their pets. WTF do I do with 30 high rank enchants that aren't worth a HAMSTER on my pets anymore nor are they worth anything on the AH anymore... Tell me why I shouldn't be upset. You go buy something, use it for a little while, then have the store disable the device and tell you to bad so sad... Anyone in their right mind would be upset by this.
it's not about the enchants (i mean some players would be salty about that.) it's not about the Lifesteal and Recovery being removed, but it's about having such huge changes to the worst. i'll have my CW as example: i've used both paragons one for single target (mof) and one for aoe(SS) but in instances such as CODG i dont have a campfire to switch mof/ss so either i do damage in the first stage or i do damage in the boss stage. my feats had the same core path but it still had differences that made 1 loadout better for single target vs aoe. so i go to my powers tab and i find out that all my encounters got halved. i cant do a flexible aoe when i'm on mof or a single target when i'm on ss. the feats in 1 paragon are the same that i already use on live server, and the other paragon has a usefull feat and a usless feat (so that would be the same 1 sided builds that they wanted to remove).
Boons:
they stoped being unique.
no utility boons just straight stats and %damage against certain kind of mob.
and for people saying game would be slow "AF" have known that hp in every mob is scaled down and they dont hit as crazy hard as it is in live server.
so that's it with the changes. they are overall good but they are poorly done, that's what most players atleast the player base that took time and effort in learning and thinking forward a build for their respective class. most of those copy build players will be salty with every change.
PD: "THIS IS NOT D&D IS A GAME BASED ON D&D"
In short, there is no challenge.
ToO was a nice move in this regard, though - it made us stop and think as a group, and work together. It was (at the later stages) a bit of a challenge for us. We were no longer nigh-invincible. Mistakes could be costly. It was *fun*.
I think there are a lot of players like us who are tired of the binary 'alive or dead' mechanics, and would like a chance to make a mistake that adds to the challenge, but isn't always a fatal error. Where you don't aggro half the dungeon and wipe them out, but laugh about how your group got lucky to survive pulling that second patrol while still fighting the first.
Mod16 is taking players out of the safe bubble we've existed in for so long - using recovery, and AA, and lifesteal as convenient crutches to avoid actually having to play. It will put a lot of emphasis on your ability as a player - to monitor your health, to time your strikes, to avoid standing in the red. I'm personally looking forward to turning off 'god-mode', and getting back to some actual gameplay, and having a good team in dungeons.
A lot of people are saying that with all build complexity being stripped out, all the good boons we've ground out being removed, the game being MASSIVELY slowed down and basically the removal of rotations, this is not worth playing any more, it's just incredibly dull.
I'm waiting to see how they fix the level scaling, but atm playing solitaire or chess is more fun than the preview server and it's not close.
For example, when I was playing my DC in "solo" mode, I could use a solo- or AoE-focused encounter whenever required, but now I am always restricted by the number and color of pips I have. My combat is now totally mechanic: 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-3-Tab-1-1-1-1-1-1-4 over and over.
I fully agree with the complaint about build complexity being stripped out. Building a character in D&D is a significant chunk of what I find fun about that game.