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Official M16: Paladin Feedback

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  • brainfirebob#3208 brainfirebob Posts: 22Member Arc User
    Nope
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,553Member Arc User
    I agree with oremonger about using Circle of Protection as the AoE for Divine Shield, at least if it’s going to remain 80% use of Divinity.

    Looking at the current triangle it looks like the sides that go away from the shield are close to, if not the same as the radius for CoP already, but because it only exists in the triangle (not a cone it has 3 flat sides) it is only about 1/4 of the area, which means it’s useless for protecting either the Paladin or the party. The Paladin either drops the shield and then moves out of it to keep it relatively free of enemies so the other PCs are protected, or the Paladin stays in it and the other PCs are forced out because it literally fills with enemies and only the OP is protected.

    A final comment, in the flash and splat environment of party play the vfx for the shield’s area is basically impossible to track while also tracking enemies, so again a circle centred on the shield part of the vfx would make it easier for players of all skill levels to track the effect.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • emilemoemilemo Posts: 1,718Member Arc User
    I see a lot of vague comments made here by the sole dev responsible for both developing and seemingly also for community management. "Some zones/areas/maps/instances are not yet balanced to accommodate the class changes."

    Well, what exactly are we testing then? Cause my super tank (super meaning something very weak, like a newborn chicken) was just insta killed in one of the portals in Castle Never. You know the 5 portals, where the mobs are so weak on Live you 1shot them before they even reach you. Ye,s those killed my 18k Justicar. Awesome! So, what are we testing @asterdahl ? We cant properly test anything if we dont know where to test, where are things wai?

    I'll tell you what you're testing. You're testing to see how much you can push this bs build before people start screaming and name calling and mods would have to step in and delete posts/ban folks. You know how sometimes a company would advertise an open position and even call candidates over for interviews only to never follow thru with any of them.. That company is simply fishing to see whats in the water. That's what you at Cryptic are doing, you're testing to see how much you can get away with. Well, we'll see about that.
    Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
    Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
  • silvergryphsilvergryph Posts: 732Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I think that some of the problems with tanking are just getting used to a new paradigm. The primary way to keep aggro is going to be by dealing damage. We have abilities that can "grab aggro" (place you on top of the aggro table), and some that can deal an extra bump of aggro, but for the most part we are going to keep aggro by dealing damage. Yes, we deal less base damage but every point generates more threat.

    I have a little familiarity with this from Champions. In Champions, 1 point of damage is 1 point of threat. Being in tank role will cause you to deal less damage, but threat is scaled up to where a well built tank generates 1.85 points or more of threat per point of damage. Neverwinter just has to get the modifier right. Usually my tanks there use an aggro grab at the start of a fight and if somebody else grabs aggro. Other than that, I keep aggro by dealing damage.

    The good news is that once we have the tools and knowledge to build for damage to tank, that will also speed up solo play. The tools are obviously still a work in progress and the knowledge is probably going to involve learning to build for more offense.
  • tryingfeedback#2848 tryingfeedback Posts: 43Member Arc User
    edited March 5
    Dear Cryptic or Neverwinter Devs i understand this is still on the test server i understand this is a MMORPG and yes we understand that it gets changes, but usually those changes are for the betterment of team work and fun factor, best example i can come up with is you play baseball, and then youre coach say no you got to play this way cause we just changed all the rules and none the rules make sense well you probably will not want to play anymore, thats the message this model sends to players right off the bat especially the older player group who has been customers with cryptic longer then Neverwinter has existed in some cases and i see them getting in on this as well.

    So the whole issue is the model you are trying to force us to use with ( Encounter powers, Class feats, Feat trees, Base stats, and paragon paths) and anything else vital to the way Classes work now on live server, this area right here needs heavy work before even considering attempting to make changes on this level to everyones classes, sure i was fine with the way you did the companion bonuses and the boons i can live with that type of change, the way you did companion gear thats a lil more questionable but we can work on that part with companion gear, the changes to stats ok lets try to roll with that and focus attention there i think you are onto something there but again ( Encounter powers, Class feats, Feat trees, Base stats, and paragon paths) isnt working out it sapped the fun out of alot of classes and reason for that is we have literally less options now due to the way the stuff in ( ) was designed for mod 16.... and i feel that who ever designed paladins needs to understand we dont like the design of everything inside my ( ) due to it sapped the fun out of it completely even after testing 2 builds.


    So requesting that you put a stop or halt on ( Encounter powers, Class feats, Feat trees, Base stats, and paragon paths) and anything else vital to the way we work now and hit rewind or revert or if you got a way to backup to that point in the changes and undo them until further or later date given or this will be released early with all these changes not to the satisfaction of customers and that is my concern and i dont want that to happen like it did in mod 6 because they clearly didn't give themselves enough time for this amount of changes, and im telling you guys your customers who have seen this happen in the past are really worried right now and some have already left or thinking of leaving the game or VIP playing, so please again we beg of you stop these specific changes in their tracks until we can have more time for you to decide whether its a good maneuver or not, based upon all the negative feedback toward ( Encounter powers, Class feats, Feat trees, Base stats, and paragon paths) i am asking you not to do it this way, like i said done tried 2 differnt builds and niether one was fun was exactly the same except one had tiny bit more self heals then the other nothing amazing like our current paladins.


    So all in all just trying to give personal experience feedback toward this and im not only hollering about paladins here, im talking about all classes not just one, since OP is my main i would post here, but im speaking on others behalf here when i say please no dont do that to our lovely game, just stop now on these changes spoken about here please.


    Thinking further about it I myself will give this about a month to a month and a half to see if you realize youre mistakes on this and see if you are just going to push forward with this change, if you do i will no longer be offering any of my classes services to anyone and will go on strike by VIP playing and by that i mean im not spending money on VIP, and just standing around talking to allies or guildies if there will be any left if you go through with this, already seen some people just throwing thier hand up and selling all thier stuff and done left and logged out and hasnt come back online yet, this is sad alone and enough to make others want to do the same.


    Again i beg of you please dont go through with this change like this stop it now and listen to the customers who have been here longer then most, listen to the ones that sound like they love the game and dont want to see it happen like this.



    And im not gonna sit here and cry for a refund for any money i spent of the past 5 years on NW, just cant ask that of you guys because you seriously need it to stop this and fix this the way customers are requesting please thank you

    P.s. Thank You

    From 8+ year Long Cryptic Customer

    @asterdahl @terramak @nitocris83
  • murtagh#4249 murtagh Posts: 5Member Arc User

    The third set has us choosing between Enhanced Radiant Charge and Bound to the Land. If I have all the threat like I'm supposed to and use Radiant Charge (this is the one I choose), I take all the mobs with me. This is the equivalent of the CW push that most of us hate so much. My party was not amused. Bound to the Land is a non-starter, 25% movement decrease? Paladins have enough trouble keeping up with their party in a dungeon. I could always make up for it with Dark enchantments...oh wait guess not. Yeah not picking that feat. Nice graphics on the Radiant Charge daily though.Not feeling the love here.

    Bound to the Land does not reduces your movement speed permanently. It only reduces while you are under effect of Binding Oath.
    Yes but binding oath lasts 12 seconds which can and will bleed over into non-combat time. I went and tested it. It's still a negative.
  • iamsmokingone#2455 iamsmokingone Posts: 87Member Arc User
    tried castle never with a default setup and default powers, while blocking I was 1 shotted 5-7 times by the first group of enemies. the Glabrezu always hit me for a fixed 348000, and even though mitigation was applied and the hit was less than my max HP (not by much) it still instantly killed me. 1 hit from the Balgura did and so did 1 hit from either of the shadow demons, I left the dungeon at that point and decided I would not play paladin until I learned more and/or something is fixed
    Parwen Valerian DC
    Rekk Talent OP
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Posts: 201Member Arc User

    tried castle never with a default setup and default powers, while blocking I was 1 shotted 5-7 times by the first group of enemies. the Glabrezu always hit me for a fixed 348000, and even though mitigation was applied and the hit was less than my max HP (not by much) it still instantly killed me. 1 hit from the Balgura did and so did 1 hit from either of the shadow demons, I left the dungeon at that point and decided I would not play paladin until I learned more and/or something is fixed

    I also got hit for 348k. If you go back, check your actual HP. CN scales u down. I think i was scaled down to 160k. Even if it didnt ignore the shield it would have been a 1-shot.

    DEVz have acknowledged in another thread that there are lots of these broken "outlier" mobs that need to be fixed.

    and to rub salt in the wound, its not actually the mob that is the problem. one of your comps is bugging you out. with a working set of comps you will not have this experience.
  • megasvassiliosmegasvassilios Posts: 21Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I think that some of the problems with tanking are just getting used to a new paradigm. The primary way to keep aggro is going to be by dealing damage. We have abilities that can "grab aggro" (place you on top of the aggro table), and some that can deal an extra bump of aggro, but for the most part we are going to keep aggro by dealing damage. Yes, we deal less base damage but every point generates more threat.

    I have a little familiarity with this from Champions. In Champions, 1 point of damage is 1 point of threat. Being in tank role will cause you to deal less damage, but threat is scaled up to where a well built tank generates 1.85 points or more of threat per point of damage. Neverwinter just has to get the modifier right. Usually my tanks there use an aggro grab at the start of a fight and if somebody else grabs aggro. Other than that, I keep aggro by dealing damage.

    The good news is that once we have the tools and knowledge to build for damage to tank, that will also speed up solo play. The tools are obviously still a work in progress and the knowledge is probably going to involve learning to build for more offense.

    Somewhere a developer stated that if a tank could do 70% of the damage the dps does he would have no problem keeping the aggro. Big lols. Justicars are by default 30% down. And if you take in account that some of our encounters would be utility encounters you can do the math. Have you run an epic dungeon to see how much damage we do?

    And since I touched the 30% damage dealt reduction. How the HAMSTER did they get to that number?

    Not long ago in an update paladins damage was raised so that they can solo in ease. Now they same developer reduces it to zero. What pills....
    Don't judge always by a 18-19k paladin.
  • gunk#7763 gunk Posts: 6Member Arc User

    gunk#7763 said:

    @asterdahl Myself and 2 other players paladins grouped up to test last night... 2 of us were not experiencing these one shots (in fact I leveled to 80 never having less than 75% health in any fight, the third was getting one shot on nearly every single mob in every zone while testing.

    For those of us not getting one shot the mob damage cycles looked like: enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 10 to 40k

    For our teammate getting one shot the mob damage cycle looked like this: enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 5k, enemy hits for 600k to 1.5m

    Our stats point allocations were nearly identical, so to test we did the following:

    Set all our feats to be identical: same result, player three experienced the same damage cycle

    Set all our boons to be identical: same result, player three experienced the same damage cycle

    Player three cleared all companion power slots: player 3 no longer experiencing one shots from every mob, and damage cycle looks like the players not experiencing crazy high burst from the mobs. We ended up having to stop there, so did not narrow down which companion slotted power might be the factor involved, I hope this helps.


    LOL wow really something not working correctly????? NO WAY wow. OP are broken period, currently NOTHING can be done in their current state to correct the grievous and ludicrous nerfs implemented in this mod
    I know that I'm not a normal "player" being one of those multi class whales with seven 18k+ characters in live right now. However, I greatly enjoy this game, and I am still super excited about all the changes so far. Speaking as a software engineer I can tell you that any effort this large there will be bugs and balance issues to work through, and it doesn't help when you are building on an already extensive code base. From the point of view of mechanics and game play, the best we can do as players is to provide constructive feedback on what we think is wrong, and what is working, but at the end of the day these are changes that have been mapped out and worked on for months, so we cannot reasonably expect to see major changes to mechanics at this point. When it comes to bugs it is in our best interests to give as detailed information as possible so that the designers and developers can recreate the bug... trust me this can make the difference between spending 10 minutes finding and fixing a bug, and a bug never getting fixed.

    As such can we please keep the sarcasm and critical remarks to a minimum in these forums, and stick to constructive feedback and detailed as possible bug scenarios so that the designers and devs can focus on the task at hand: providing us, the customer with the best experience possible.

    I apologize to everyone for not making this a paladin post

    Thank You

    OK here my feedback....Nothing is working and everything is wrong. that cover it????, I am the customer and I am extremely dissatisfied with not only the Development of this mod but also the direction the game is headed in. The Reason that the developers are wholesale blowing up everything we know till know is one lone reason. YOU failed at balancing the game, PVP been broken for 3+ years, You used that as an excuse to completely overhaul EVERYTHING, because you haven't been doing your job for the last 5 years, allowing the game to get to the point that you felt the ONLY thing you can do is DESTROY it all and start over. Well guess what????? Not working, won't work, never has worked on any game prior to this one. What makes you think, if after 5 years and nothing getting fixed, that you will get it right this time(FYI you didn't get it right even remotely). I realize this is probably very insulting to all the work that has been put in to all the changes(the changes are insulting to the player base). So take it how ever you take it, I guess I'll break down and see what ESO is all about, wish now i had left when it came out instead of enduring the years of frustration and resentment you have caused me and a multitude of other players in your current, but soon to be nonexistent player base. May every ounce of Joy be slowly and surely sucked from your life like Mod 16 has done to me.

    Good Riddance
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Posts: 149Member Arc User
    I do not have any problems with most of the changes that are being made to the game, other than the mediocre at best boons. I do object strongly to the changes that are being made to the OP tank paragon path. I would not take any of these "great" new feats if I could get something that would actually help us instead of restricting our choices even further. Do the mediocre encounter powers really need such high cool downs or high divinity costs. We can't even choose to do without the divinity encounters, there are not enough usable cooldown powers to choose from. I am not even going to discuss the ridiculous - 30% damage penalty.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 571Member Arc User
    FEEDBACK

    Sacred Shield is a level 40 feat that affects a level 72 power. This makes no sense. No character should reasonably be asked to select a feat designed to improve a specific power that they have not yet acquired, never mind one that is 32 levels away in an 80 level scale.


    Further, while I am not opposed to the existence of feats that improve specific powers, I do not think that any pairing of feats should include two feats each designed to improve a single power. Such choices exist for the Paladin at multiple steps, and while my early power choices matched up with some of these feats, there was a point where I had neither power slotted, making for a completely worthless feat slot for me.

    This seems to fly in the face of the idea that every build should be more-or-less equally viable.
    Either those powers are not as good as the others and need a feat to bring them up to speed or they are as good and these feats make them better, meaning that any Paladin that doesn't use these powers is handicapping themselves.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 571Member Arc User
    BUG

    When I transferred a character over, they had several old quests return to the mission tracker.

    Things like "Locate a flyer" or "Accept Retrieval Operations" from Acquisitions Inc or some Tyranny of Dragons stuff that the original character had long since completed and that were not in their mission journal when they transferred.


    And not sure if a bug or not, but the Undermountain Cuirass that my Paladin was given had the "Barovian Hunter" bonus attached, giving him a 5% damage bonus in Barovia.

    Why would Undermountain gear give a character bonus damage in Barovia?
  • benyrbenyr Posts: 117Member Arc User
    In the final lair in undermountain (the one where you put out torches, gather some dead guys gear before fighting the shadow dragon ive noticed some odd behaviours.
    Potential bugs, the two harvester things that stand either side of the death knight teleported to me, not sure if thats intentional? The harvester animation in general seems off, when i first engage them their first hit preceeds their animation making it hard to block, and when they die they blow up then a short while later the explosion hits you.
    The necromancers blue beam attack completly ignores my shield.
    The shadow dragon instance bugged on me a few times, where by id take him to zero health, hed fight on for about 10 mins before going back to sit on his building forcing me to abandon the instance. When i did eventually kill the dragon the quest path took me to the building not the dragon, and it took a few attempts to work out exactly where on the dead dragon i needed to stand to activate my lantern to complete the quest.
    Playability issues, the mobs in that dungeon are far far tougher than anything that preceeds them. Mobs typically included a necromancer, a master vampire, assassin vampire or one of the seer things. All of which can kill me in 2 - 3 hits if i dont block them (i have 350k hp). I cant block them all, they crowd me and hit from all sides. Theyre also faster than i am, and i cant walk backwards with my sheild raised or fight with it up. If i stand their i die, if i move forward with shield up they all fall behind me and i die, if i try to back off i cant keep my sheild up and turn around and i die. I really need either a 360 degree sheild or the ability to move (faster) and fight with it raised.
    The only way i can win is to try and aggro from afar, run off and try and spread the fight over the length of the dungeon. This is really annoying and time consuming.
    As an aside note im an OP, gods warrior smiter of evil, scourge of the undead, i should be charging into battle with these abominatations, not squealing and scarpering as soon as a vampire looks at me.
    Finally in the last room where you meet the dead guy whos gear youve been collecting and the main boss turns up, there is no way that bit is soloable without either a lot of scrolls or relying on the presumably bugged overpowered artifact power.
  • skaarl75skaarl75 Posts: 19Member Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    skaarl75 said:

    I am trying to sit here and figure out where to start. There is just so much wrong with the justicar as it currently sits, and knowing from experience that what I say will fall on deaf developer ears.

    First, I am saying this from over 20 years of MMO experience. I started playing Everquest in 1998, and have not stopped playing MMO's since (in fact longer, as I really started in MUD's years earlier but now I am dating myself.) I don't say this to toot my own horn, just to explain that I have seen pretty much everything in MMO's over the years, and have seen what you are currently do fail.

    The issues here are not just about the powers, feats, and stats all seeming to work against each other, or having to choose to pigeonhole yourself into a damage sink to the sheer exclusion of anything else. It is the core design principle of the new class that is a failure. You have made a class which is a combination of early EQ hit a button every 30s or so to manage super finite resources and the original attempt of Blizzard to make a paladin tank. Both have been shown by history to be failures. You have made a class with little to no player engagement which performs poorly in survivability, has threat issues, or if you take powers to handle threat has less survivability and no offense. You have made a class which boils down to this: not fun to play.

    The problem with your model is that in solo play its painful. plain and simple. which means levelling and casual play with them will decrease... which leads to less tanks and therefore less groups being filled in queue and longer queue times. So less fun for everyone.

    Sadly, you have already committed to this model, and nothing said here by anyone about the poor class design will have any impact at all. We are all stuck with your bad decisions until we find something else to play, which is what will happen.


    Hello! Thank you for taking the time to come onto the forum and provide your feedback. I assure you it is not falling on deaf ears, and I am genuinely appreciative of your time.

    The thing you describe having a problem with—the pace of power usage, is actually the thing we could most easily change, so I wouldn't say we are "already committed to this model." We'd like everyone to have a chance to play around with the changes for more than just a week before making any drastic changes but nothing is off the table.
    It's not the pace of power usage. it's slow HAMSTER game play coupled with a 2 button approach - block and smite. At wills are utterly useless, as are basically all of the encounter powers. in essence your design is fundamentally flawed and essentially sucks.
  • ragnarz2ragnarz2 Posts: 201Member Arc User
    skaarl75 said:

    asterdahl said:

    skaarl75 said:

    I am trying to sit here and figure out where to start. There is just so much wrong with the justicar as it currently sits, and knowing from experience that what I say will fall on deaf developer ears.

    First, I am saying this from over 20 years of MMO experience. I started playing Everquest in 1998, and have not stopped playing MMO's since (in fact longer, as I really started in MUD's years earlier but now I am dating myself.) I don't say this to toot my own horn, just to explain that I have seen pretty much everything in MMO's over the years, and have seen what you are currently do fail.

    The issues here are not just about the powers, feats, and stats all seeming to work against each other, or having to choose to pigeonhole yourself into a damage sink to the sheer exclusion of anything else. It is the core design principle of the new class that is a failure. You have made a class which is a combination of early EQ hit a button every 30s or so to manage super finite resources and the original attempt of Blizzard to make a paladin tank. Both have been shown by history to be failures. You have made a class with little to no player engagement which performs poorly in survivability, has threat issues, or if you take powers to handle threat has less survivability and no offense. You have made a class which boils down to this: not fun to play.

    The problem with your model is that in solo play its painful. plain and simple. which means levelling and casual play with them will decrease... which leads to less tanks and therefore less groups being filled in queue and longer queue times. So less fun for everyone.

    Sadly, you have already committed to this model, and nothing said here by anyone about the poor class design will have any impact at all. We are all stuck with your bad decisions until we find something else to play, which is what will happen.


    Hello! Thank you for taking the time to come onto the forum and provide your feedback. I assure you it is not falling on deaf ears, and I am genuinely appreciative of your time.

    The thing you describe having a problem with—the pace of power usage, is actually the thing we could most easily change, so I wouldn't say we are "already committed to this model." We'd like everyone to have a chance to play around with the changes for more than just a week before making any drastic changes but nothing is off the table.
    It's not the pace of power usage. it's slow HAMSTER game play coupled with a 2 button approach - block and smite. At wills are utterly useless, as are basically all of the encounter powers. in essence your design is fundamentally flawed and essentially sucks.
    This distills it down quite well. Now if Cryptic could take a step back and really see the problem instead of defending its decisions we might get better game play instead of something mind numbing.
  • barbie#2808 barbie Posts: 87Member Arc User
    skaarl75 said:

    asterdahl said:

    skaarl75 said:

    I am trying to sit here and figure out where to start. There is just so much wrong with the justicar as it currently sits, and knowing from experience that what I say will fall on deaf developer ears.

    First, I am saying this from over 20 years of MMO experience. I started playing Everquest in 1998, and have not stopped playing MMO's since (in fact longer, as I really started in MUD's years earlier but now I am dating myself.) I don't say this to toot my own horn, just to explain that I have seen pretty much everything in MMO's over the years, and have seen what you are currently do fail.

    The issues here are not just about the powers, feats, and stats all seeming to work against each other, or having to choose to pigeonhole yourself into a damage sink to the sheer exclusion of anything else. It is the core design principle of the new class that is a failure. You have made a class which is a combination of early EQ hit a button every 30s or so to manage super finite resources and the original attempt of Blizzard to make a paladin tank. Both have been shown by history to be failures. You have made a class with little to no player engagement which performs poorly in survivability, has threat issues, or if you take powers to handle threat has less survivability and no offense. You have made a class which boils down to this: not fun to play.

    The problem with your model is that in solo play its painful. plain and simple. which means levelling and casual play with them will decrease... which leads to less tanks and therefore less groups being filled in queue and longer queue times. So less fun for everyone.

    Sadly, you have already committed to this model, and nothing said here by anyone about the poor class design will have any impact at all. We are all stuck with your bad decisions until we find something else to play, which is what will happen.


    Hello! Thank you for taking the time to come onto the forum and provide your feedback. I assure you it is not falling on deaf ears, and I am genuinely appreciative of your time.

    The thing you describe having a problem with—the pace of power usage, is actually the thing we could most easily change, so I wouldn't say we are "already committed to this model." We'd like everyone to have a chance to play around with the changes for more than just a week before making any drastic changes but nothing is off the table.
    It's not the pace of power usage. it's slow HAMSTER game play coupled with a 2 button approach - block and smite. At wills are utterly useless, as are basically all of the encounter powers. in essence your design is fundamentally flawed and essentially sucks.
    Well you are kinda wrong, you are better to provide ways of improving it and have it properly fit to the class and the role, rather than assuming the design is flawed and essentially sucks.

    Here is how the same design is showing , did they gone wrong with the design? they definitely haven't. And please do not try to say NW is a mmo and the other one is a MOBA, because that is the worst way of thinking... MMORPGS and games in general need to evolve above their niche.
  • barbie#2808 barbie Posts: 87Member Arc User
    ragnarz2 said:


    skaarl75 said:

    asterdahl said:

    skaarl75 said:

    I am trying to sit here and figure out where to start. There is just so much wrong with the justicar as it currently sits, and knowing from experience that what I say will fall on deaf developer ears.

    First, I am saying this from over 20 years of MMO experience. I started playing Everquest in 1998, and have not stopped playing MMO's since (in fact longer, as I really started in MUD's years earlier but now I am dating myself.) I don't say this to toot my own horn, just to explain that I have seen pretty much everything in MMO's over the years, and have seen what you are currently do fail.

    The issues here are not just about the powers, feats, and stats all seeming to work against each other, or having to choose to pigeonhole yourself into a damage sink to the sheer exclusion of anything else. It is the core design principle of the new class that is a failure. You have made a class which is a combination of early EQ hit a button every 30s or so to manage super finite resources and the original attempt of Blizzard to make a paladin tank. Both have been shown by history to be failures. You have made a class with little to no player engagement which performs poorly in survivability, has threat issues, or if you take powers to handle threat has less survivability and no offense. You have made a class which boils down to this: not fun to play.

    The problem with your model is that in solo play its painful. plain and simple. which means levelling and casual play with them will decrease... which leads to less tanks and therefore less groups being filled in queue and longer queue times. So less fun for everyone.

    Sadly, you have already committed to this model, and nothing said here by anyone about the poor class design will have any impact at all. We are all stuck with your bad decisions until we find something else to play, which is what will happen.


    Hello! Thank you for taking the time to come onto the forum and provide your feedback. I assure you it is not falling on deaf ears, and I am genuinely appreciative of your time.

    The thing you describe having a problem with—the pace of power usage, is actually the thing we could most easily change, so I wouldn't say we are "already committed to this model." We'd like everyone to have a chance to play around with the changes for more than just a week before making any drastic changes but nothing is off the table.
    It's not the pace of power usage. it's slow HAMSTER game play coupled with a 2 button approach - block and smite. At wills are utterly useless, as are basically all of the encounter powers. in essence your design is fundamentally flawed and essentially sucks.
    Well you are kinda wrong, you are better to provide ways of improving it and have it properly fit to the class and the role, rather than assuming the design is flawed and essentially sucks.

    Here is how the same design is showing , did they gone wrong with the design? they definitely haven't. And please do not try to say NW is a mmo and the other one is a MOBA, because that is the worst way of thinking... MMORPGS and games in general need to evolve above their niche.
    I cant disagree more with you. This is a design disaster. It is simplistic. It is boring. It is robotic. It is an over compensation for what the OP has become on live. This is not an evolution or a revolution, it is a lobotomy.

    You problably missunderstood my post, actually this isn't a lobotomy, this is a evolution, the game is evolving doing something what other MMORPGS do not have, this class revampl it is revolutionary, and if they keep doing it right it will feel right. So i make it simple for you to understand, ALL of the changes done to CLASS REVAMP and the concept i love it, and i encourage it, because i kno' that the final result will be worthwhile. I understand the bad parts of the old feat system and i understand the good parts of this one, anyway as simple, and boring , and robotic it feels to u, thats how Neverwinter is, cause it hasn't changed much from what it is in mod 15 to mod 16. Anyway i do not think this is where the Game will stop to evolve, and we will see in the future more stuff being added where there will be more diversity, by now i wouldn't be surprised that either mod 17 or mod 18 might bring a 3rd Path for each class, a PATH for buff, control or hybrid.
  • skaarl75skaarl75 Posts: 19Member Arc User
    edited March 6

    ragnarz2 said:


    skaarl75 said:

    asterdahl said:

    skaarl75 said:

    I am trying to sit here and figure out where to start. There is just so much wrong with the justicar as it currently sits, and knowing from experience that what I say will fall on deaf developer ears.

    First, I am saying this from over 20 years of MMO experience. I started playing Everquest in 1998, and have not stopped playing MMO's since (in fact longer, as I really started in MUD's years earlier but now I am dating myself.) I don't say this to toot my own horn, just to explain that I have seen pretty much everything in MMO's over the years, and have seen what you are currently do fail.

    The issues here are not just about the powers, feats, and stats all seeming to work against each other, or having to choose to pigeonhole yourself into a damage sink to the sheer exclusion of anything else. It is the core design principle of the new class that is a failure. You have made a class which is a combination of early EQ hit a button every 30s or so to manage super finite resources and the original attempt of Blizzard to make a paladin tank. Both have been shown by history to be failures. You have made a class with little to no player engagement which performs poorly in survivability, has threat issues, or if you take powers to handle threat has less survivability and no offense. You have made a class which boils down to this: not fun to play.

    The problem with your model is that in solo play its painful. plain and simple. which means levelling and casual play with them will decrease... which leads to less tanks and therefore less groups being filled in queue and longer queue times. So less fun for everyone.

    Sadly, you have already committed to this model, and nothing said here by anyone about the poor class design will have any impact at all. We are all stuck with your bad decisions until we find something else to play, which is what will happen.


    Hello! Thank you for taking the time to come onto the forum and provide your feedback. I assure you it is not falling on deaf ears, and I am genuinely appreciative of your time.

    The thing you describe having a problem with—the pace of power usage, is actually the thing we could most easily change, so I wouldn't say we are "already committed to this model." We'd like everyone to have a chance to play around with the changes for more than just a week before making any drastic changes but nothing is off the table.
    It's not the pace of power usage. it's slow HAMSTER game play coupled with a 2 button approach - block and smite. At wills are utterly useless, as are basically all of the encounter powers. in essence your design is fundamentally flawed and essentially sucks.
    Well you are kinda wrong, you are better to provide ways of improving it and have it properly fit to the class and the role, rather than assuming the design is flawed and essentially sucks.

    Here is how the same design is showing , did they gone wrong with the design? they definitely haven't. And please do not try to say NW is a mmo and the other one is a MOBA, because that is the worst way of thinking... MMORPGS and games in general need to evolve above their niche.
    I cant disagree more with you. This is a design disaster. It is simplistic. It is boring. It is robotic. It is an over compensation for what the OP has become on live. This is not an evolution or a revolution, it is a lobotomy.

    You problably missunderstood my post, actually this isn't a lobotomy, this is a evolution, the game is evolving doing something what other MMORPGS do not have, this class revampl it is revolutionary, and if they keep doing it right it will feel right. So i make it simple for you to understand, ALL of the changes done to CLASS REVAMP and the concept i love it, and i encourage it, because i kno' that the final result will be worthwhile. I understand the bad parts of the old feat system and i understand the good parts of this one, anyway as simple, and boring , and robotic it feels to u, thats how Neverwinter is, cause it hasn't changed much from what it is in mod 15 to mod 16. Anyway i do not think this is where the Game will stop to evolve, and we will see in the future more stuff being added where there will be more diversity, by now i wouldn't be surprised that either mod 17 or mod 18 might bring a 3rd Path for each class, a PATH for buff, control or hybrid.
    So your revolution is to:

    1) reduce game play decisions to 2 buttons: block and smite.

    2) there wont be a third path for buff/control. they have already stated they are moving to the holy trinity design ideal so there are no support classes/paths in the works.

    3) this design is NOT revolutionary. In fact it goes back to a failed design in wow of the tank in general from years ago : tanks are not allowed to do damage so we will artificially nerf the damage... but give them extra aggro. Do you know what historically happens when you do this? fewer people play tanks because the gameplay becomes too slow and grindy. As fewer people play tanks fewer queue groups get filled and queues start to become obnoxiously long for everyone.
  • barbie#2808 barbie Posts: 87Member Arc User
    skaarl75 said:

    ragnarz2 said:


    skaarl75 said:

    asterdahl said:

    skaarl75 said:

    I am trying to sit here and figure out where to start. There is just so much wrong with the justicar as it currently sits, and knowing from experience that what I say will fall on deaf developer ears.

    First, I am saying this from over 20 years of MMO experience. I started playing Everquest in 1998, and have not stopped playing MMO's since (in fact longer, as I really started in MUD's years earlier but now I am dating myself.) I don't say this to toot my own horn, just to explain that I have seen pretty much everything in MMO's over the years, and have seen what you are currently do fail.

    The issues here are not just about the powers, feats, and stats all seeming to work against each other, or having to choose to pigeonhole yourself into a damage sink to the sheer exclusion of anything else. It is the core design principle of the new class that is a failure. You have made a class which is a combination of early EQ hit a button every 30s or so to manage super finite resources and the original attempt of Blizzard to make a paladin tank. Both have been shown by history to be failures. You have made a class with little to no player engagement which performs poorly in survivability, has threat issues, or if you take powers to handle threat has less survivability and no offense. You have made a class which boils down to this: not fun to play.

    The problem with your model is that in solo play its painful. plain and simple. which means levelling and casual play with them will decrease... which leads to less tanks and therefore less groups being filled in queue and longer queue times. So less fun for everyone.

    Sadly, you have already committed to this model, and nothing said here by anyone about the poor class design will have any impact at all. We are all stuck with your bad decisions until we find something else to play, which is what will happen.


    Hello! Thank you for taking the time to come onto the forum and provide your feedback. I assure you it is not falling on deaf ears, and I am genuinely appreciative of your time.

    The thing you describe having a problem with—the pace of power usage, is actually the thing we could most easily change, so I wouldn't say we are "already committed to this model." We'd like everyone to have a chance to play around with the changes for more than just a week before making any drastic changes but nothing is off the table.
    It's not the pace of power usage. it's slow HAMSTER game play coupled with a 2 button approach - block and smite. At wills are utterly useless, as are basically all of the encounter powers. in essence your design is fundamentally flawed and essentially sucks.
    Well you are kinda wrong, you are better to provide ways of improving it and have it properly fit to the class and the role, rather than assuming the design is flawed and essentially sucks.

    Here is how the same design is showing , did they gone wrong with the design? they definitely haven't. And please do not try to say NW is a mmo and the other one is a MOBA, because that is the worst way of thinking... MMORPGS and games in general need to evolve above their niche.
    I cant disagree more with you. This is a design disaster. It is simplistic. It is boring. It is robotic. It is an over compensation for what the OP has become on live. This is not an evolution or a revolution, it is a lobotomy.

    You problably missunderstood my post, actually this isn't a lobotomy, this is a evolution, the game is evolving doing something what other MMORPGS do not have, this class revampl it is revolutionary, and if they keep doing it right it will feel right. So i make it simple for you to understand, ALL of the changes done to CLASS REVAMP and the concept i love it, and i encourage it, because i kno' that the final result will be worthwhile. I understand the bad parts of the old feat system and i understand the good parts of this one, anyway as simple, and boring , and robotic it feels to u, thats how Neverwinter is, cause it hasn't changed much from what it is in mod 15 to mod 16. Anyway i do not think this is where the Game will stop to evolve, and we will see in the future more stuff being added where there will be more diversity, by now i wouldn't be surprised that either mod 17 or mod 18 might bring a 3rd Path for each class, a PATH for buff, control or hybrid.
    So your revolution is to:

    1) reduce game play decisions to 2 buttons: block and smite.

    2) there wont be a third path for buff/control. they have already stated they are moving to the holy trinity design ideal so there are no support classes/paths in the works.
    There is nothing atm in the works, because it is taking alot of time to refine all of these changes, you do not kno' what is goin to be far in the future, but there is still a slim possibility that they going to release a 3rd path.

    They haven't reduced gameplay decisions to 2 buttons: i do not know how Paladin is played or other classes, but for my Barbarian i can tell you that i will have to switch quite oftenly my encounter, even rotations based on the party group we are in, based on what sort of fights would be ahead, based on the enemy etc. Like i said for me all of the things they've done with these changes was to narrow down, but making the horizon wider, the game is evolving, there will be far far more choices than the fake choices there are with module 15. Anyway you will definitely change your mind once they are going to refine these changes properly, and they are going to adjust them , and adjust the content.
    I've been here for along time, and i know how bad Paladin waas in module 6, and i know that every class how bad they were in mod 2 when they got a 2nd Path, and currently for a first i can agree with these LOGICAL and PRODUCTIVE changes !
    While it is not going to cater to the majority, it does cater to me, and i can tell you that with patience you will going to like them.
  • anoreksjaanoreksja Posts: 60Member Arc User
    In current state in preview OP is nothing more than very poor copy of the GF. Without tem hp,
    power share, any good at-wills, class feature, bane debuff, aggro, circle of power, nothing to use.
    Really, it's bad joke.. Only run away from the mobs and wait for the restoration of the divine power
    or die. The new daily power is too slow to use and often interrupted by an enemy attack :(
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Posts: 120Member Arc User

    asterdahl said:


    Hello! Thanks for the feedback and detailed breakdown of your experience. While I know a lot of people are posting in this thread, very upset that they were defeated in an area like Sharandar, please take a look at logs like this—Paladin was able to solo scaled content intended for a group. Please keep in mind that if you're getting crushed, there are likely bugs making things too hard. On the other hand, there are a few things that may be too easy as well! With that out of the way...

    To be clear, the 1/5th values I quoted are in normative play with all DPS focused powers, and that is without taking class mechanics into account. Due to the way Justicar's Charge works, if you're mostly blocking to regain divinity, you're not going to be using a lot of at-wills. Particularly when trying to solo content meant for a group, that's going to be the case a lot of the time.

    @asterdahl


    The following video is a solo run in ESoT made by a GF in tank spec lasting a whole 3:34 minutes. The paladin "not meant to solo any content though for a 5 person party" took more than 13 minutes and probably died a bunch of times in the process.



    I play an almost 19k OP since the inception of the class and my feedback can be summed up as having lost all of the dynamics that made the paladin unique as a tank and as a buffer. The god granting divinity evidently does it out of shame while looking its "champion" getting ganked behind his shield and could be almost heard saying: "come on, hit them too once in a while like your heroic friends do!" (possibly poking him with a divine invisibile stick).

    The logic of granting divine power for getting hit hundreds of times is beyond me. I would expect to see an OP rewarded for his courage with the due amount of righteous wrath by his deity, instead he gets - very slowly - rewarded for hiding 90% of the time behind a shield like a coward. I don't feel any elation to play my class in the sorry state as it is now; at least the other tank classes seem to have received lots of consideration with free dailies, full stamina recharges, control immunity and 4000 magnitude hits. Playing the Dreadnought or the Sentinel feels rewarding, opposite to the slow, turtlish and clunky Justicar's gameplay.

    Sorry to say it, but not looking forward at all to play this class without a complete overhaul of the current overhaul.

    The Fighter in this video clears ESOT as a Dreadnought (dps paragon), you can see that at the daily "Mow Down" which is exclusive to this paragon.
    You can clear this skirmish equally as fast as a Justicar (even with the 30% dmg penalty):



    (ESOT can currently be cleared by many [if not all] classes in 3-4mins.. probably even shorter if you try hard)
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,553Member Arc User
    I feel like people complaining the class is just smite, block and repeat aren’t being honest about the class on live either.

    Smite, is frankly, your main dps for solo play. Vow to aggro mob, smite while they run in, smite again as they arrive, Absolution, block and smite plus some at-wills. At least you have 3 powers with an 80’ range now.

    Once you go into party mode smite should be replaced with TW, giving you 2 powers that give aggro and room for a flexible third depending on the dungeon and party.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • anoreksjaanoreksja Posts: 60Member Arc User
    Paladin (tank) must have 64k Defense + 33k Armor Penetration + other statistics in Power and HP?
  • mistwalk3rmistwalk3r Posts: 16Member Arc User
    The more I read and compare, the more it seems OP's solo ability is being thrown in the garbage for no good reason.

    Almost all the justifications for the removal of buffs, tools, and abilities, seem to refer back to group content primarily, and an unceasing need to keep tank classes "in their lane."

    And the reasoning behind the flat 30% (!) damage reduction has been stated as merely to protect the feelings of similarly geared DPS members so they aren't outdamaged by the tank. That's the official reason! (stated by asterdahl on page 2 of this thread). Nevermind that 30% is a huge detriment to our ability to solo compared to other classes, and is just flat out unnecessary. I agree with someone above who said the devs are so worried about how strong OP was before, they've overcompensated by over-neutering them.

    I'd love to hear the reasoning for such a passive DPS debuff given that:

    1. Tanks will be stacking Defense and Deflect enchants, now that they're meaningful and necessary, where other classes can focus more on a balance with Armor Pen, Crit, Accuracy, and Power enchants.
    2. Power sharing has been removed, so there is less (no) reason to stack that as a tank/OP.
    3. Mechanically we're forced to spend so much time blocking to even access our offensive abilities, just how would tanks blocking half of fights EVER be a concern as competition for top DPS? We can't attack at all with the shield up, and we can't attack much while it's down.

    Given all the above, the 30% DPS loss just for being in tank spec is, again, necessary how? It's like you worried about OP's previous offensive capability, thought of 4 different ways to mitigate it and lock us into the tank lane, and then implemented ALL FOUR where one or two would have sufficed. Since you're chasing most other games' models using a holy trinity, I'd point out that most of them handle it simply using item #1 above: itemization. Tanks will choose defense-oriented gear and enchants now, because they NEED them now. Even if they didn't, we have to spend so much time blocking...it's a solution desperately looking for a problem. One that's already been solved three times over.

    I'd also point out two posters in this thread, who echo one or two other OPs on reddit, describing their solo experience thusly:

    "I mostly just sit behind my shield and wait for my companion to take care of the mobs."

    I had a similar experience with my 13.5k live, 15.2k or so preview, OP. Does this sound interesting, compelling, improved, tactical, or any-single-positive-adjective to anyone? Most importantly: does it sound fun?
  • leonidrexleonidrex Posts: 346Member Arc User
    we got nerfed becouse general population is bad, bad gwf gets outdpsed by OP and he cries, yadda yadda yadda. now pally gonna be boring. By gearing, and mastering my class i got rewarded by slap to the face and a middle finger, but good thing random Jimmi the pug GWF wont be outdpsed by me anymore.
  • marnivalmarnival Posts: 1,432Member Arc User
    The new feat system that tie half the feats to encounters/daily

    The more I read and compare, the more it seems OP's solo ability is being thrown in the garbage for no good reason.

    Almost all the justifications for the removal of buffs, tools, and abilities, seem to refer back to group content primarily, and an unceasing need to keep tank classes "in their lane."

    And the reasoning behind the flat 30% (!) damage reduction has been stated as merely to protect the feelings of similarly geared DPS members so they aren't outdamaged by the tank. That's the official reason! (stated by asterdahl on page 2 of this thread). Nevermind that 30% is a huge detriment to our ability to solo compared to other classes, and is just flat out unnecessary. I agree with someone above who said the devs are so worried about how strong OP was before, they've overcompensated by over-neutering them.

    I'd love to hear the reasoning for such a passive DPS debuff given that:

    1. Tanks will be stacking Defense and Deflect enchants, now that they're meaningful and necessary, where other classes can focus more on a balance with Armor Pen, Crit, Accuracy, and Power enchants.
    2. Power sharing has been removed, so there is less (no) reason to stack that as a tank/OP.
    3. Mechanically we're forced to spend so much time blocking to even access our offensive abilities, just how would tanks blocking half of fights EVER be a concern as competition for top DPS? We can't attack at all with the shield up, and we can't attack much while it's down.

    Given all the above, the 30% DPS loss just for being in tank spec is, again, necessary how? It's like you worried about OP's previous offensive capability, thought of 4 different ways to mitigate it and lock us into the tank lane, and then implemented ALL FOUR where one or two would have sufficed. Since you're chasing most other games' models using a holy trinity, I'd point out that most of them handle it simply using item #1 above: itemization. Tanks will choose defense-oriented gear and enchants now, because they NEED them now. Even if they didn't, we have to spend so much time blocking...it's a solution desperately looking for a problem. One that's already been solved three times over.

    I'd also point out two posters in this thread, who echo one or two other OPs on reddit, describing their solo experience thusly:

    "I mostly just sit behind my shield and wait for my companion to take care of the mobs."

    I had a similar experience with my 13.5k live, 15.2k or so preview, OP. Does this sound interesting, compelling, improved, tactical, or any-single-positive-adjective to anyone? Most importantly: does it sound fun?

    +1. This locking feats to powers + EXTEMELY limited ways to make builds = what this thread says - complete utter sad mess.
    Played Gf Hr from 70 to 80 new campain also and compared to those classes ( that still suffer from same lack of theorycrafting) pal have been 10 times more severely (just had to use the new daily name here) mown down ....
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