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Official M16: Wizard

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  • vincentr6669vincentr6669 Posts: 235Member Arc User
    edited March 3
    First my complaints:

    Right now i have the same feeling as most people: devs dumbed down your feat choices to stop newbies from choosing bad options and in the process they eliminated a lot of viable builds.

    Also there is the fact that they eliminated the sense of accomplishment of having new powers and class features when they split half of the powers on Arcanist and the other half on Thaumaturge or when removing Spell Mastery added effects.

    It's weird to see Ice Storm (your first daily on the game) being moved to a level 80 daily spot instead of a new daily. You might say that Arcanist has a new daily, but why not a new daily for both paths? People should have access to all powers they had before mod 16 and on top of that a new at-will, new encounter, new daily and new class feature for each paragon.

    What we have now is a lazy version of what i've said above with one paragon having a new at-will and new daily while the other paragon only has a new encounter and neither of them have a new class feature. Basically half of level 80 stuff is new and the other half is recycled old stuff.

    Also, where is the D&D feeling on these changes? Where is Fire Ball, Lightning, Chain Lightning and Meteor Swarm? Who even asked for "Cataclysm"?

    About gameplay:

    Initially i felt my area attacks were way weaker and single target attacks were way stronger to the point it was more advantageous to kill groups of monsters one by one with Chill Strike, Entangling Force, Disintegrate and Ray of Enfebleement than to kill all of them at once with Icy Terrain + Steal Time + Shard of Endless Avalanche + Oppressive Force.

    But then i realize part of the problem was that i was playing in scaled content (Dread Ring and Barovia to be more precise). When i moved to the new zones i was killing stuff with 1x Oppresive Force followed for 1x Steal Time. This same "combo" on Dread Ring didn't even tickle.

    It felt weird as hell not being able to use Fanning the Flame as a Area Attack anymore, i feel like i'm forced to mix area attacks with single target whereas before i was able to focus on AoE for trash and Single-Target for bosses. I don't like that from a personal playstyle perspective, doesn't mean it's not good from a mechanic perspective.

    Now suggestions:

    Bring back Spell Mastery even if that means reducing damage from some spell when said spell is used on Spell Mastery. It was nice to have CAdv and Run Speed on Steal Time, or AoE effect on FtF and Chill Strike, or larger radius on Conduit of Ice, or pull effect on Entangling Force, etc.

    Thaumaturge is Cold & Fire focused while Arcanist is Arcane & Lightning focused. All of Thaumaturge feats fits that concept but Arcanist not so much. Also Arcanist has 2 cold-based feats that should be transfered to Thaumaturge.

    Icy Veins should be merged with Snap Freeze (even if you have to tone down Snap Freeze a bit to compensate for the added Icy Veins effect) and Frigid Winds should be merged with Chilling Advantage (instead of +1% damage per chill stack or +4% critical severity per chill stack you have +0.5% damage per chill stack AND +2% critical severity per chill stack).

    Icy Veins on Arcanist feats should be replaced with something that boosts your at-wills (does not need to be a damage boost, it can be some heal or small group buff just like Controlled Momentum) after you use a daily to counter-point Assailant Force which is totally Encounter-based.

    Since Chaos Magic has a chance to activate whenever you use encounter or dailies then Frigid Winds should be replaced with something that is triggered by at-wills. Not sure what that "something" would be but you could put a medium self-heal or small group-heal on the feat replacing Icy Veins and a small buff on the feat replacing Frigid Winds or vice-versa.

    Please improve Arcane Bolt casting (it is really clunky and slow). Also improve Sudden Storm damage and consistency to hit. I don't know if i am bad at positioning (never had that problem before though) or if it's lag or if it's uneven terrain or if this power is just different now, but i used to hit a lot enemies in front of me when i used this and now i hit the enemy in front of me but not the one behind him or vice-versa. Also its damage just sucks now, Steal Time has a slower casting time and is way better (both in terms of damage and area of effect).


    Steal Time sometimes goes off cooldown only visually and when i try to use it again the cooldown reappears showing i still can't cast it.
  • eregerogeregerog Posts: 47Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    It is confusing that spells cannot be slotted if a feat of a lower level hasn't been chosen yet. For the entire time I thought "Arcane Empowerment" and "Imprisonment" cannot be slotted and were just bugged.
    The push of "Shard of Endless Avalanche" covers a very short distance - shorter than I remember. The spell is not really usable as the "Ranged AoE CC Engage" ability that it was once used for.
    Ray of Enfeeblement's tooltip is wrong: It mentions that the "Arcane Mastery" increases the target's damage taken, but I think that "Spell Mastery" was meant to be there.

    I am curious to hear how other players feel about this suggestions.

    I think switching those two feats is a good start, but i prefer @vincentr6669 's suggestion on that matter more: The arcanist should not have cold-related feats. On the bottom I combine this feedback with that of another person to propose new feats for the Arcanist.


    As for spell mastery, if there are specific ones people would like to see come back we can discuss that. I want to make sure people know how that would work. If Chill Strike spell mastery is that it hits multiple targets, the damage from spell mastery would be cut to 1/3rd of what it is for non-mastery single target. It wouldn't just be the same damage against multiple targets.

    Honestly with the way you are phrasing it, ALL encounter powers should get a spell mastery effect, even if that effect has it's downsides: That makes character building much more interesting. However, since development time is limited, I will list the spells that need a spell mastery effect the most:

    Entangeling Force Should get it's AOE pull & damage back on spell mastery. As a downside it would hold the primary target for shorter or deal less damage to it. Right now the Thaumaturge lacks a "Ranged AoE CC Engage" ability, and that spell could serve this purpose. Furthermore, it would make the spell more interesting, since it can be used in non-mastery as a great single target damage and control ability, but the player can give up some of the single target dps when switching it to mastery for more AoE

    Conduit of Ice It was previously used to quickly stack chill on mutliple enemies, of which only icy terrain is now capable. The spell mastery should get an effect that adds stacks of chill over the duration (and maybe the increased radius), and it's damage/duration could be slightly reduced as a result

    Steal time should atleast get it's combat advantage back (at least for the wizard themselves), but the movespeed is also nice. As a trade-off, the CC could be reduced. The reason for this is that the feats already offer some combat advantage synergy, and it would offer a nice way to interact with "Striking Advance"

    Fanning the flame should get its aoe Spell mastery back, with the ability to quickly apply smoulder to multiple enemies. As a trade-off the duration could be reduced, since the spell is at "maximum effectiveness" from the very first second.

    Feedback:

    Critical Hits should be calculated per hit on 'Ticking' Powers like Conduit of Ice, Oppressive Force, Steal Time and Icy Terrain.
    The new At Will, Arcane Bolt, should have a much shorter casting time, similar to Magic Missile to complete its full hit combo. In its current state its horrible to use. Its final Hit(s) should be a mini AOE attack.
    The new Encounter Power, Cataclysm, isn't great, it doesn't feel at all Powerful. Hits only a few targets in a small area. Not sure why anyone would use it. Should be reworked a power that hits over a wider area.
    Storm Spell: With the changes to Critical Hits and Counter Stats, Storm Spell should be made to have a 30% Chance to proc on all damage, not just Critical Hits. It should also be made to be a Mechanic like Smoulder.


    I also agree with all the quoted points from above, especially the first three. The last would be interesting, and my follow-up suggestion is to make "Shock" an Arcanist mechanic but in a weaker form (less damage, lower trigger chance or only procs on lightning attacks).

    If I can be really specific, In this case I would prefer something along the lines of:
    Your powers can shock enemies, dealing x damage.
    On dealing damage with at-wills, encounters or dailies you have a y% + (z% per stack of arcane mastery) chance to shock the enemy on non-deflected attacks.

    In the same way that smoulder interacts with chill, shock would interact with arcane mastery. In order to not make "a step above mastery" too overpowered, y could be around 10% while z would be around 1% (therefore arcane mastery stacks are less weighted). Also I included "non-deflected attacks" because I think there are too many crit synergies already, some why not something new?

    This mechanic could then be modified by class features and feats in interesting ways and here are some suggestions:

    - Storm fury would periodically shock nearby enemies. This is better than the current storm fury, since it's not the wizard's intent to get hit. Instead providing more damage for risky play style (staying close to the enemy)
    - Storm spell could still shock enemies on crit.
    - A feat that will cause shock to briefly stun enemies, with an x-second per-enemy cooldown (frigid winds/icy veins could be replaced by that)
    - A feat that could cause a target that has been shocked 3 times to explode with lightning, damaging nearby enemies (frigid winds/icy veins could be replaced by that)


    Those are just a few ideas I came up with when I let my imaginations run wild.

    Hopefully this feedback was more specific @noworries#8859 and I hope that you consider some of the proposed changes (esp. Spell Mastery, Shock would just be the icing on the cake :smile: )
  • soulaeterr2soulaeterr2 Posts: 12Member Arc User
    edited March 3
    i feel like the feats as they are currently are just: "pick ice or fire" for thaumaturge. rather than some actual personal playstyle choices. I loved taking feats that improved or worked well with my dash or stuf that happened to work for a power that nobody else was using. idk currently it just feels like choosing a second paragon path within your paragon path
  • valnoledvalnoled Posts: 38Member Arc User
    A quick glance to a fire wizard.
    Feat Glowing Flames won't work on practice well. It is like gathering flames mechanic (which is awesome IMO).
    But it is rare to gather a large pack of mobs to open the potential of these AOE flame abilities. In dungeons you gather the crowd only if you are sure they will be dead in several seconds... still not good for ticking flame DOTs.
    Also making Ideal paths differentation by Single/AOE damage, what I believe took place, is a bad thing. Priority will be always on Single target DPS. Cause bosses are usually single mobs. And who needs AOE dd (useless on boss) in a 5 player party dungeon system?
  • ralf1835ralf1835 Posts: 18Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    ralf1835 said:



    While we are open to adjusting cooldowns of specific powers a little bit, we aren't planning to reduce them all down to fast casts. Also damage is directly related to the length of the cooldown, shorter the cooldown, lower the damage.

    about Fanning the Flame long cooldown 20 sec , low dmg 80 magnitude and and where is what you wrote about above.

    Fanning the Flame is very strong for AoE. The "only" 80 magnitude is deceptive, it does a lot more relative to everything else on trash due to how quickly it proliferates smolder.
    [10:11] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Rimefire Smolder deals 10933 (10719) Fire Damage to Battletested Orc.
    [10:11] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Fanning the Flame deals 2752 Fire Damage to Battletested Orc.
    [10:11] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Glowing Flames deals 1698 Fire Damage to Battletested Orc.
    [10:11] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Icy Terrain deals 3930 Cold Damage to Battletested Orc.

    can you tell me where it is "very strong for AoE" dmg or I'm doing something wrong ?


    Cataclysm don't give Smolder to all targets when opponents have a stack of chill.

    Cataclysm change to Meteor
    Summon Meteor "the same mechanics as Furios Immolation" and Deals Fire damage to all enemies in target location radius X' and enemies hit by Meteor will burn take "x" magnitude per second for "x" sec.



    Swath of Destruction increases Smolder damage by 5%, and targets affected by smolder take 2% up to 5%more dmg
    Combustive Action When one of your smolder targets is killed, you and allies gain 1% down to 0.5% of max Action Points
    Fros Wave When you activate a Daily power you apply 3 up to 6 stack of Chill and Freeze foes within 30' of you. Enemies that are already Frozen have theeir Freeze duration refreshed. Targets affected by Frost Wave take 5% more damage from all sources .
    I think about it as something special, it is a wave that brings freezing to opponents and weakens them by freezing.

    maybe these changes in any way matched another path with arcanist pargons class feature
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,693Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    ralf1835 said:

    ralf1835 said:



    While we are open to adjusting cooldowns of specific powers a little bit, we aren't planning to reduce them all down to fast casts. Also damage is directly related to the length of the cooldown, shorter the cooldown, lower the damage.

    about Fanning the Flame long cooldown 20 sec , low dmg 80 magnitude and and where is what you wrote about above.

    Fanning the Flame is very strong for AoE. The "only" 80 magnitude is deceptive, it does a lot more relative to everything else on trash due to how quickly it proliferates smolder.
    [10:11] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Rimefire Smolder deals 10933 (10719) Fire Damage to Battletested Orc.
    [10:11] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Fanning the Flame deals 2752 Fire Damage to Battletested Orc.
    [10:11] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Glowing Flames deals 1698 Fire Damage to Battletested Orc.
    [10:11] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Icy Terrain deals 3930 Cold Damage to Battletested Orc.

    can you tell me where it is "very strong for AoE" dmg or I'm doing something wrong ?


    Cataclysm don't give Smolder to all targets when opponents have a stack of chill.

    Cataclysm change to Meteor
    Summon Meteor "the same mechanics as Furios Immolation" and Deals Fire damage to all enemies in target location radius X' and enemies hit by Meteor will burn take "x" magnitude per second for "x" sec.



    Swath of Destruction increases Smolder damage by 5%, and targets affected by smolder take 2% up to 5%more dmg
    Combustive Action When one of your smolder targets is killed, you and allies gain 1% down to 0.5% of max Action Points
    Fros Wave When you activate a Daily power you apply 3 up to 6 stack of Chill and Freeze foes within 30' of you. Enemies that are already Frozen have theeir Freeze duration refreshed. Targets affected by Frost Wave take 5% more damage from all sources .
    I think about it as something special, it is a wave that brings freezing to opponents and weakens them by freezing.

    maybe these changes in any way matched another path with arcanist pargons class feature
    Here is a log of a typical trash fight:



    3%+3%+2%=8%.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Also can I just say this:

    The problem with feats isn't dumbing down. It's that if the goal is to give meaningful choices instead of lots of choices, that didn't go far ENOUGH.

    Fundamentally with most builds, you're going to go Chill or Smolder; so having 5 feats where each is either "Here's your chill effect" or "here's your smolder effect" is not five choices, it's one choice, and it's a small one.

    I'd prefer only 3 feats, but with bigger effects, but you get to choose between three different feats instead of two. It's fewer decision points, but more meaningful decisions. Hence why I would have recommended Lightning/Fire/Cold all as one build.

    It helps that the relevant IP already has a word for that (Evoker).

    And again: Fireball is a necessity. Just use the same animation Warlocks have for their fireball thing that targets a creature and explodes outwords, change the color scheme, and attach it to Icy Terrain's old targeting mechanism. It doesn't have to be a huge programming project or anything, or require much in the way of new assets. Or, of course, the art assets of the Evokers. It's infuriating to know those Red Wizard grubbers are truer wizards than we are!
  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Posts: 633Member Arc User

    It is urgent that you reduce the cooldown of the encounters, especially the long ones like IT, ST, etc; without recovery the wizard is horribly slow to be effective and enjoy it.

    Aside from the cooldown issue this is (to me) one of the stronger classes I've tested for M16. Way more effective than Barbie, Fighter or HR. Better even than SW with mobs.

    But the cooldown issue makes fighting mobs time consuming when I'm solo, as you have to wait a few seconds between each group. I haven't attempted a group dungeon yet - but I can imagine that with the way dungeons work - Wiz cooldowns will be fatal in situations where you have mob waves to deal with.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    It is urgent that you reduce the cooldown of the encounters, especially the long ones like IT, ST, etc; without recovery the wizard is horribly slow to be effective and enjoy it.

    Aside from the cooldown issue this is (to me) one of the stronger classes I've tested for M16. Way more effective than Barbie, Fighter or HR. Better even than SW with mobs.

    But the cooldown issue makes fighting mobs time consuming when I'm solo, as you have to wait a few seconds between each group. I haven't attempted a group dungeon yet - but I can imagine that with the way dungeons work - Wiz cooldowns will be fatal in situations where you have mob waves to deal with.
    As I've suggested, there's no reason why cooldowns shouldn't be expedited while out of combat. Encouraging sitting around twiddling thumbs is bad game design. Aside from that, NON recovery based recharge speed seems to have gone away.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,693Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 3
    Since everyone here is suggesting whatever they think the game should be according to dnd lore (which is silly since this game is a non dnd game with a dnd veneer) I recommend we bring back the vancian system and have the Wizard have to rest to memorize spells. /s
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Since everyone here is suggesting whatever they think the game should be according to dnd lore (which is silly since this game is a non dnd game with a dnd veneer) I recommend we bring back the vancian system and have the Wizard have to rest to memorize spells. /s

    They explicitly changed the class names in order to fit with the D&D product identity man. No reason not to go a bit further and change a few power names. The original power names were taken from 4E, but A.) WotC kind of erased 4E and B.) many of the powers taken from 4E weren't even the best power choices for 4E in the first place! So renaming Sudden Storm "Lightning Bolt" is a no brainer.

    Anyway, according to 5E rules, a Wizard would easily be able to memorize every single one of their spells, so that snark line doesn't really fly.
  • nabidi2nabidi2 Posts: 10Member Arc User
    "it's like they think i'm stupid or something"... this is how my DC fiancee summed up preview when i got home. after loading up and playing my CW a couple days, i'd have to agree.

    boon "choices" are just chances to make mistakes with very little room for error, you might as well have a quest to choose your boon and put a yellow circle around the correct choice. same with feats. just parroting what others say about dumbing down of the game.

    as for "Control" Wizard, it feels like a dps character now. not sure if it's control boon removal, spell rework, etc. but crowd control is pathetic now. splitting up the control encounters between the paragons means i have dps spells with no control effects. i dont mind if being social means i have to have a role-specific, one-choice, idol-copying build to get invited to end game content but when i'm running around solo (90% of the time) there is less survivability, less crowd control, more mouse button mashing, and a WHOLE LOT less fun. the encounter cooldowns are ridiculous, even affecting my gameplay outside of combat. whats the point of playing crowd control if you cant handle crowds and can barely control a 4 mob trash pull???

    i can 100% guarantee i would not have spent nearly the amount of time playing thru campaigns if instead of having interesting and varied spell effects the boons gave me 200 power so i could chase a 19k ilvl guide writer through the same racecourse.

    not spending a dime until preview is over. definitely not spending 40 non-billable hours documenting game design flaws so i can write a guide for devs. at the end of the day, i pay money to play games and have fun, not volunteer beta test wild, failing game design changes.

    "well at least i'm used to playing stupid little clicky games, i might stick around"... can't say i agree with her on this one. but hey, it's about 30% ready to go mobile, think of the new playerbase!
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,751Member Arc User
    edited March 3
    nabidi2 said:

    "it's like they think i'm stupid or something"... this is how my DC fiancee summed up preview when i got home.

    Unfortunately I think they need to approach game design with the premise that players are generally stupid. There's no other way to explain how so many of us have managed to completely ruin our characters of similar potential (item level, boons earned, etc.) by taking some of the worst possible build choices.
    nabidi2 said:



    boon "choices" are just chances to make mistakes with very little room for error, you might as well have a quest to choose your boon and put a yellow circle around the correct choice. same with feats. just parroting what others say about dumbing down of the game.

    The old system was the illusion of real choice; at least this one is more honest. The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not.
    nabidi2 said:


    as for "Control" Wizard, it feels like a dps character now.

    That's because it is and basically always has been one. The last time anyone really cared about control was when we used it to massacre trash armies in places like old CN by scooping them up and punting them over ledges. Control has been undervalued for a long time now, and that is unlikely to change unless Cryptic decides to pull a complete 180 and go back to the days of endless adds at bosses that take so long to kill that assigning a player to throw them around or turn them into statues is beneficial.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • pspell#9801 pspell Posts: 1Member Arc User
    rysiek86 said:

    On second thought I stop with any feedback untill i see the DevBlog about Wizard... there I should get all the answers of what is the meaning of existing the Wizard, Blogs about Paladin and Cleric gave all the answers in my opinion. After i get knowlege how the class creators see us, i will continue to give all my best to get significant informations to improve the performance of the class :).
    #@noworries#8859 Im lookin forward to helpin ya :)

    Agreed - we can help better once we have a statement of what the intended target is. Its especially important to know what the role in a party should be and how viable wizards are solo. Then, we aren't simply comparing the new to the old, but rather evaluating the new as if it was a fresh game.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    vorphied said:

    nabidi2 said:

    "it's like they think i'm stupid or something"... this is how my DC fiancee summed up preview when i got home.

    Unfortunately I think they need to approach game design with the premise that players are generally stupid. There's no other way to explain how so many of us have managed to completely ruin our characters of similar potential (item level, boons earned, etc.) by taking some of the worst possible build choices.
    nabidi2 said:



    boon "choices" are just chances to make mistakes with very little room for error, you might as well have a quest to choose your boon and put a yellow circle around the correct choice. same with feats. just parroting what others say about dumbing down of the game.

    The old system was the illusion of real choice; at least this one is more honest. The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not.
    nabidi2 said:


    as for "Control" Wizard, it feels like a dps character now.

    That's because it is and basically always has been one. The last time anyone really cared about control was when we used it to massacre trash armies in places like old CN by scooping them up and punting them over ledges. Control has been undervalued for a long time now, and that is unlikely to change unless Cryptic decides to pull a complete 180 and go back to the days of endless adds at bosses that take so long to kill that assigning a player to throw them around or turn them into statues is beneficial.

    I really miss being able to hurtle enemies off cliffs. I didn't do it often, but it was a really fun gameplay element.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,693Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Since everyone here is suggesting whatever they think the game should be according to dnd lore (which is silly since this game is a non dnd game with a dnd veneer) I recommend we bring back the vancian system and have the Wizard have to rest to memorize spells. /s

    They explicitly changed the class names in order to fit with the D&D product identity man. No reason not to go a bit further and change a few power names. The original power names were taken from 4E, but A.) WotC kind of erased 4E and B.) many of the powers taken from 4E weren't even the best power choices for 4E in the first place! So renaming Sudden Storm "Lightning Bolt" is a no brainer.

    Anyway, according to 5E rules, a Wizard would easily be able to memorize every single one of their spells, so that snark line doesn't really fly.
    DnD is a set of rules, it is not lore or names of powers. This game uses none of the rules of the dnd system, hence it is not a dnd game. It doesn't matter how much you want to imagine it is, it is not a dnd game, but keep living in that fantasy world in your head where it is.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Since everyone here is suggesting whatever they think the game should be according to dnd lore (which is silly since this game is a non dnd game with a dnd veneer) I recommend we bring back the vancian system and have the Wizard have to rest to memorize spells. /s

    They explicitly changed the class names in order to fit with the D&D product identity man. No reason not to go a bit further and change a few power names. The original power names were taken from 4E, but A.) WotC kind of erased 4E and B.) many of the powers taken from 4E weren't even the best power choices for 4E in the first place! So renaming Sudden Storm "Lightning Bolt" is a no brainer.

    Anyway, according to 5E rules, a Wizard would easily be able to memorize every single one of their spells, so that snark line doesn't really fly.
    DnD is a set of rules, it is not lore or names of powers. This game uses none of the rules of the dnd system, hence it is not a dnd game. It doesn't matter how much you want to imagine it is, it is not a dnd game, but keep living in that fantasy world in your head where it is.
    This is a profoundly bad take. D&D is both a set of rules and a product identity. The 5th edition OGL actually lines out what WotC considers "product identity" (things like Illithids for instance).

    More than that, Neverwinter is specifically a *Forgotten Realms* product, which is itself a set of lore.

    The big point is that there's no reason to arbitrarily NOT keep the same names as in D&D, especially if you're going out of your way to change names to match D&D already. The fact that you're weirdly obsessive about OPPOSING this point is confusing to me.

    There's good reason not to majorly change mechanics to be like D&D (because Neverwinter is an MMO not a turn based tabletop RPG), but making the power names match iconic spells is not only harmless, it helps synergize with brand identity. Which they bothered licensing, so apparently they think it has value.
  • nabidi2nabidi2 Posts: 10Member Arc User
    vorphied said:

    nabidi2 said:

    "it's like they think i'm stupid or something"... this is how my DC fiancee summed up preview when i got home.

    Unfortunately I think they need to approach game design with the premise that players are generally stupid. There's no other way to explain how so many of us have managed to completely ruin our characters of similar potential (item level, boons earned, etc.) by taking some of the worst possible build choices.
    nabidi2 said:



    boon "choices" are just chances to make mistakes with very little room for error, you might as well have a quest to choose your boon and put a yellow circle around the correct choice. same with feats. just parroting what others say about dumbing down of the game.

    The old system was the illusion of real choice; at least this one is more honest. The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not.
    nabidi2 said:


    as for "Control" Wizard, it feels like a dps character now.

    That's because it is and basically always has been one. The last time anyone really cared about control was when we used it to massacre trash armies in places like old CN by scooping them up and punting them over ledges. Control has been undervalued for a long time now, and that is unlikely to change unless Cryptic decides to pull a complete 180 and go back to the days of endless adds at bosses that take so long to kill that assigning a player to throw them around or turn them into statues is beneficial.

    "completely ruin our characters of similar potential" implies there is only one correct build and reeks of end game elitism. any "bad" build choice is easily fixed with tokens if a player decides to choose a different play style.

    "The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not." again assumes there is one correct build that everyone should copy if they want to get invited to your kteam runs.

    apparently not every player thought it was an enjoyable experience to have someone dictate every choice in the game while they studied ACT and made pie charts every night. imagine that.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    nabidi2 said:

    vorphied said:

    nabidi2 said:

    "it's like they think i'm stupid or something"... this is how my DC fiancee summed up preview when i got home.

    Unfortunately I think they need to approach game design with the premise that players are generally stupid. There's no other way to explain how so many of us have managed to completely ruin our characters of similar potential (item level, boons earned, etc.) by taking some of the worst possible build choices.
    nabidi2 said:



    boon "choices" are just chances to make mistakes with very little room for error, you might as well have a quest to choose your boon and put a yellow circle around the correct choice. same with feats. just parroting what others say about dumbing down of the game.

    The old system was the illusion of real choice; at least this one is more honest. The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not.
    nabidi2 said:


    as for "Control" Wizard, it feels like a dps character now.

    That's because it is and basically always has been one. The last time anyone really cared about control was when we used it to massacre trash armies in places like old CN by scooping them up and punting them over ledges. Control has been undervalued for a long time now, and that is unlikely to change unless Cryptic decides to pull a complete 180 and go back to the days of endless adds at bosses that take so long to kill that assigning a player to throw them around or turn them into statues is beneficial.

    "completely ruin our characters of similar potential" implies there is only one correct build and reeks of end game elitism. any "bad" build choice is easily fixed with tokens if a player decides to choose a different play style.

    "The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not." again assumes there is one correct build that everyone should copy if they want to get invited to your kteam runs.

    apparently not every player thought it was an enjoyable experience to have someone dictate every choice in the game while they studied ACT and made pie charts every night. imagine that.
    ... Right, and simplifying the number of choices helps to reduce the amount of pie charts needed.
  • nabidi2nabidi2 Posts: 10Member Arc User
    edited March 3


    "I really miss being able to hurtle enemies off cliffs. I didn't do it often, but it was a really fun gameplay element."

    i still use this tactic quite a bit in places like barovia. pull everything in site and if the fight doesn't stabilize repel enemies off a cliff until it does. they run back up but it buys me time and stabilizes fights that get out of hand.
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,751Member Arc User
    edited March 3
    nabidi2 said:

    vorphied said:

    nabidi2 said:

    "it's like they think i'm stupid or something"... this is how my DC fiancee summed up preview when i got home.

    Unfortunately I think they need to approach game design with the premise that players are generally stupid. There's no other way to explain how so many of us have managed to completely ruin our characters of similar potential (item level, boons earned, etc.) by taking some of the worst possible build choices.
    nabidi2 said:



    boon "choices" are just chances to make mistakes with very little room for error, you might as well have a quest to choose your boon and put a yellow circle around the correct choice. same with feats. just parroting what others say about dumbing down of the game.

    The old system was the illusion of real choice; at least this one is more honest. The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not.
    nabidi2 said:


    as for "Control" Wizard, it feels like a dps character now.

    That's because it is and basically always has been one. The last time anyone really cared about control was when we used it to massacre trash armies in places like old CN by scooping them up and punting them over ledges. Control has been undervalued for a long time now, and that is unlikely to change unless Cryptic decides to pull a complete 180 and go back to the days of endless adds at bosses that take so long to kill that assigning a player to throw them around or turn them into statues is beneficial.

    "completely ruin our characters of similar potential" implies there is only one correct build and reeks of end game elitism. any "bad" build choice is easily fixed with tokens if a player decides to choose a different play style.

    "The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not." again assumes there is one correct build that everyone should copy if they want to get invited to your kteam runs.

    apparently not every player thought it was an enjoyable experience to have someone dictate every choice in the game while they studied ACT and made pie charts every night. imagine that.
    You initiate a discussion about feat choice and Wizard game mechanics and then respond in a passive-aggressive manner to feedback regarding said mechanics. Maybe dial back on that a tad.

    In M15 there is not a single viable way to build Wizard, but there are very few good options with many very bad options mixed in. As you elegantly put it, not all players are analyzing ACT logs (what a terrible, elitist activity...), which makes them much more likely to make poor choices without realizing the impact of said choices.

    The pre-M16 feat trees reward the metagamer for knowing how mechanics work while unnecessarily punishing the more casual gamer who does not understand how the sausage is made. Many choices that contribute to a negative gameplay experience look just fine on paper. They don't even realize that their choices are "bad" because they lack the context to make that determination, so tokens are of minimal help.

    And not that this has anything to do with the larger discussion, but I don't actually do K-Team. I'm far too elitist for that garbage gear. No, really - the gear is garbage and I don't want it.




    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • nabidi2nabidi2 Posts: 10Member Arc User
    edited March 3

    nabidi2 said:

    vorphied said:

    nabidi2 said:

    "it's like they think i'm stupid or something"... this is how my DC fiancee summed up preview when i got home.

    Unfortunately I think they need to approach game design with the premise that players are generally stupid. There's no other way to explain how so many of us have managed to completely ruin our characters of similar potential (item level, boons earned, etc.) by taking some of the worst possible build choices.
    nabidi2 said:



    boon "choices" are just chances to make mistakes with very little room for error, you might as well have a quest to choose your boon and put a yellow circle around the correct choice. same with feats. just parroting what others say about dumbing down of the game.

    The old system was the illusion of real choice; at least this one is more honest. The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not.
    nabidi2 said:


    as for "Control" Wizard, it feels like a dps character now.

    That's because it is and basically always has been one. The last time anyone really cared about control was when we used it to massacre trash armies in places like old CN by scooping them up and punting them over ledges. Control has been undervalued for a long time now, and that is unlikely to change unless Cryptic decides to pull a complete 180 and go back to the days of endless adds at bosses that take so long to kill that assigning a player to throw them around or turn them into statues is beneficial.

    "completely ruin our characters of similar potential" implies there is only one correct build and reeks of end game elitism. any "bad" build choice is easily fixed with tokens if a player decides to choose a different play style.

    "The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not." again assumes there is one correct build that everyone should copy if they want to get invited to your kteam runs.

    apparently not every player thought it was an enjoyable experience to have someone dictate every choice in the game while they studied ACT and made pie charts every night. imagine that.
    ... Right, and simplifying the number of choices helps to reduce the amount of pie charts needed.
    it doesn't take ACT to figure out that taking self heal boons isn't maximizing dps, but it is a valid playchoice. it doesn't take spreadsheets to figure out +single target/-aoe dmg is your boss loadout. and it doesn't take pie charts to figure out you have more fun throwing mobs around than doing a little more dmg with SS in tab.

    this whole expansion feels like everyone is being forced to copy the 1337 end game playstyle of the dev teams buddies.

  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    nabidi2 said:

    nabidi2 said:

    vorphied said:

    nabidi2 said:

    "it's like they think i'm stupid or something"... this is how my DC fiancee summed up preview when i got home.

    Unfortunately I think they need to approach game design with the premise that players are generally stupid. There's no other way to explain how so many of us have managed to completely ruin our characters of similar potential (item level, boons earned, etc.) by taking some of the worst possible build choices.
    nabidi2 said:



    boon "choices" are just chances to make mistakes with very little room for error, you might as well have a quest to choose your boon and put a yellow circle around the correct choice. same with feats. just parroting what others say about dumbing down of the game.

    The old system was the illusion of real choice; at least this one is more honest. The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not.
    nabidi2 said:


    as for "Control" Wizard, it feels like a dps character now.

    That's because it is and basically always has been one. The last time anyone really cared about control was when we used it to massacre trash armies in places like old CN by scooping them up and punting them over ledges. Control has been undervalued for a long time now, and that is unlikely to change unless Cryptic decides to pull a complete 180 and go back to the days of endless adds at bosses that take so long to kill that assigning a player to throw them around or turn them into statues is beneficial.

    "completely ruin our characters of similar potential" implies there is only one correct build and reeks of end game elitism. any "bad" build choice is easily fixed with tokens if a player decides to choose a different play style.

    "The only choice players had in the old system was whether to be viable or not." again assumes there is one correct build that everyone should copy if they want to get invited to your kteam runs.

    apparently not every player thought it was an enjoyable experience to have someone dictate every choice in the game while they studied ACT and made pie charts every night. imagine that.
    ... Right, and simplifying the number of choices helps to reduce the amount of pie charts needed.
    it doesn't take ACT to figure out that taking self heal boons isn't maximizing dps, but it is a valid playchoice. it doesn't take spreadsheets to figure out +single target/-aoe dmg is your boss loadout. and it doesn't take pie charts to figure out you have more fun throwing mobs around than doing a little more dmg with SS in tab.

    this whole expansion feels like everyone is being forced to copy the 1337 end game playstyle of the dev teams buddies.

    There's, what, 8 classes? Each of which has 2 paragon paths, and for each paragon path there's 2 feat options for each of 5 different tiers of play.

    That means that there's 160 different build options. That's plenty. And limiting the number of possible builds to a finite number radically increases the ability to balance the game.
  • kalina311kalina311 Posts: 1,494Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 4
    It is more then 160 build choices when you factor in all the companions bonuses and combos now. and also having to upgrade all insignias .. that is where build creativity /errors will happen and separate the haves from the have nots


    your build "creativity" / diversity now is all about companions and bonuses and the zen store
    and mount bonuses as well
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    It is more then 160 build choices when you factor in all the companions bonuses and combos now. and also having to upgrade all insignias .. that is where build creativity /errors will happen and separate the haves from the have nots


    your build "creativity" / diversity now is all about companions and bonuses and the zen store
    and mount bonuses as well

    ?

    It's 160 build choices BEFORE factoring in companion bonuses and stuff. It's even more choices after companions!
  • pteriaspterias Posts: 661Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 4

    The more specific the feedback we receive, the more likely we can action on it.

    Feedback that is along the lines of: "I don't like the powers split between the paragon paths" tells us you don't like it, but doesn't give specifics on which powers you'd like to see moved around.

    Where as Feedback such as: "I think this feat from Arcanist should be swapped with this feat from Thaumaturge" gives us a direct point of consideration to work with.

    Powers:
    - Swapping Shard(Arcanist) and Repel(Thaum) Encounters would help make each PP's power set more coherent.

    - Swapping Chilling Cloud(Thaum) with Ray of Frost(core) would even the At-Wills out a little by giving core a single target and AoE, and each PP a single target and AoE. Ray of Frost as a super chill stacker would also synergize well with the Thaum Feats and theme. Leaving Ray of Frost as is though gives everyone a super chill stacker power, which I can also see an argument for.

    Mastery:
    - Chill Strike should be given back its AoE. That was the whole point of ever putting it on Mastery to begin with. Chill should be put on main target regardless of slot. It was always a nice opener for ambushing groups while leveling and soloing, but not like this. As is, it's just a beefier At-Will.

    - Entangling Force, Fanning the Flames, Conduit of Ice, Cataclysm, Sudden Storm, and Disintegrate don't even *have* Mastery effects?? Is that just a tooltip error, a work-in-progress, or intentional?

    - Icy Rays has no description at all! :tongue:

    - Ray of Enfeeblement: does it really need to NOT benefit melee attacks?? That just seems pointless and arbitrary.

    General:
    I find your lack of Fireball... disturbing.

    Seriously though, the more I think about it, the more this becomes a serious downer. Despite what Sharp thinks (that's just like... your opinion, man), this IS a D&D game. Its magic is one of the most defining features of D&D, and Fireball is the most iconic spell in the game's history. During 5E development, they even gave Fireball a bit of extra oomph for it's level solely because it's such an icon. It's not even so much like we need Fireball to fill some super pressing need, it's more of a philosophical point. The pieces are already there in the game engine (along with Lightning Bolt too), all you have to do is give them to us. If you can't even be bothered to put Fireball into the game, it's an indicator that, on a broader level, you don't really get D&D. If you really don't get it to that degree, it casts doubt on whether you really have what it takes to make a good D&D game.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    pterias said:

    The more specific the feedback we receive, the more likely we can action on it.

    Feedback that is along the lines of: "I don't like the powers split between the paragon paths" tells us you don't like it, but doesn't give specifics on which powers you'd like to see moved around.

    Where as Feedback such as: "I think this feat from Arcanist should be swapped with this feat from Thaumaturge" gives us a direct point of consideration to work with.

    Powers:
    - Swapping Shard(Arcanist) and Repel(Thaum) Encounters would help make each PP's power set more coherent.

    - Swapping Chilling Cloud(Thaum) with Ray of Frost(core) would even the At-Wills out a little by giving core a single target and AoE, and each PP a single target and AoE. Ray of Frost as a super chill stacker would also synergize well with the Thaum Feats and theme. Leaving Ray of Frost as is though gives everyone a super chill stacker power, which I can also see an argument for.

    Mastery:
    - Chill Strike should be given back its AoE. That was the whole point of ever putting it on Mastery to begin with. Chill should be put on main target regardless of slot. It was always a nice opener for ambushing groups while leveling and soloing, but not like this. As is, it's just a beefier At-Will.

    - Entangling Force, Fanning the Flames, Conduit of Ice, Cataclysm, Sudden Storm, and Disintegrate don't even *have* Mastery effects?? Is that just a tooltip error, a work-in-progress, or intentional?

    - Icy Rays has no description at all! :tongue:

    - Ray of Enfeeblement: does it really need to NOT benefit melee attacks?? That just seems pointless and arbitrary.

    General:
    I find your lack of Fireball... disturbing.

    Seriously though, the more I think about it, the more this becomes a serious downer. Despite what Sharp thinks (that's just like... your opinion, man), this IS a D&D game. Its magic is one of the most defining features of D&D, and Fireball is the most iconic spell in the game's history. During 5E development, they even gave Fireball a bit of extra oomph for it's level solely because it's such an icon. It's not even so much like we need Fireball to fill some super pressing need, it's more of a philosophical point. The pieces are already there in the game engine (along with Lightning Bolt too), all you have to do is give them to us. If you can't even be bothered to put Fireball into the game, it's an indicator that, on a broader level, you don't really get D&D. If you really don't get it to that degree, it casts doubt on whether you really have what it takes to make a good D&D game.
    I'm slightly sympathetic to the "there's more important stuff to do" counter argument, but it's been 16 mods. Give us our Fireball and Lightning Bolt!
  • vlek91vlek91 Posts: 8Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 4
    I was ready to level up a character from level 1 to 80 on preview to give a good feedback about powers, feats, boons etc yet I gave up when I got to blacklake because I was taking too long to kill stuff (trash, 1-bar, mobs). How am I suppose to test and give a useful feedback if I have no idea where the problems are. It might be a power that need a boost or a monster that is not scalling well, or a bugged item. Anyway, here is what i think:

    Tutorial (Sleeping Dragon Bridge)

    It takes too long to kill trash (3 full casts of magic missile) and chill strike's cd is too long, yet the boss fight was easy (but boring as hell) as i just avoided its attacks until chill strike was ready to use again, i didn't bother using at will (too little damage).

    (Sgt knox could walk faster, it takes too long to be able to interact with him and the other guard)

    The Theft of the Crown

    That one was annoying. Too many trash mobs that takes too long to kill. It would be great to use ice terrain here.
    I was able to use Arcane Singularity twice while on this mission, and I was not impressed. The target limit should be increased now that dailys are going to be less frequent. Also, IMO it's not the best daily to be the first one unlocked, Ice Storm (aoe) or Ice Knife (bosses) would be better.

    Finding Honor

    Now i was able to use ice terrain and it was much better, yet the damage is too low AND the cd too high.


    After that mission, I was just tired of this new play style so I log out.
  • dontez1dontez1 Posts: 74Member Arc User
    edited March 5
    I would like to request a name change and a focus change. Because both "new" class choices are confusing to D&D players. I also take part of these descriptions straight out of the 5e D&D Players handbook. These are iconic Wizard classes of Faerun and Dungeons & Dragons.
    Thaumaturgy: Is a 5e cantrip to make little camp fires and give you a booming voice. Not a class and definitely not a elementalist.
    That honor belongs to the..
    Evoker: Blowing up their own party with Fireballs,Lightning Bolts, and Cones of Cold since before most of us were born.
    Evokers harness magic into powerful elemental forces.


    Arcanist: Use to be a prestige class. Now its a feat in 5e that anyone can take that gives you +1 Int and a few cantrips. Also not a Wizard class. Also not one that uses Disintegrate or the manipulation of objects and matter.
    That honor belongs to the:
    Transmuter: Disintegrating bad guys and all their magic items is not a good thing....
    Transmuters wield the the raw magic of creation and learn to alter both physical and mental qualities.


    These two classes both highly represent most spells and abilities we already have in Neverwinter. Except warlock has our Fireball named Firebolt... With mostly keeping everything intact and a few spell swaps between classes these could both shine.

    Post edited by dontez1 on
  • hypnoticbeasthypnoticbeast Posts: 108Member Arc User
    Well we certainly had a lot ideas, some real real good. And some have been um well...WTF?!?!

    So here are my two coppers. After some playing and dealing with a Bad movement bug. I have had some success in getting
    an idea where the dev's want to go with the Wizard. Now before I get on a long feedback. Understand I started playing right after the dumpster fire that was Mod 6. So I have no early NW play through to scream about. Now from starting with said dumpster fire. The new changes are a Huge step in the right direction. The first and foremost thing needing fixed is the switching of Icy veins and Snap freeze. Case in point...You can't "Shatter" what is not frozen. And the rate that happens makes Shatter not worth it without SF. Now hear me out Dev's. You have our wizard set to two DPS builds? Why? Two dps paths says to a gamer of my experience "We are crunching ideas and are a little stuck." The Arcanist path is mostly set with a few tweaks it will be awesome.
    Tweak #1. Sudden Storm needs an animation change in order to match what the Arcanist is supposed to be. Now those little squirts of lighting are a bit of a joke. When I have a skill with the word STORM in it, I expect a STORM. Not a baby sky HAMSTER. First the width of the target strip is too narrow and to short. Increase the width by 20% and the length by 25%. Next get rid of the little slaps of lighting and replace them with the storm callers target lighting. And please change the name to Thunder Bolt. And I know what others might think in the drawing room. "That might be a little much". Take it from someone with 33 years of gaming experience, Table top, pen&paper and Video. Gamer's have a need to be impressed. Sudden storm did not. Now the Damage is great mind you. The spell effect? Not so much. Remember the Arcanist is about POWER. A player doesn't just need to see the effects. They need to connect with them. I don't want to see an effect that my HERO preforms and say...Meh. I want bolts of lighting to render my foes to a mass of twitching muscles and broken cartilage.
    Tweak #2. The new daily. The idea is solid with one issue. There needs to be a boost for party members as well and ONLY party members. And queue more Screaming from the drawing room. Just pipe down and hear me out. (this will help you out.) Scaling will be needed for this. But a 3% boost for each party member should do the trick to be more survivable.

    Now on to Harry Dresden..I mean the Thaumaturge. This is not a DPS class. This is a SAPPER class. A sappers job is two fold. Weaken defenses. Weaken attack capability. The smolder mechs job was to lower Damage reduction. It does not and that is bad.
    When enemy's have their DR weakened the Dmg output is increased for the reduction amount. So if we are going to make a Rime fire Demigod we need to make sure that happens. The new Feats set that up nicely (Except of course for that whole Icy veins and Snap freeze mix up. I will get to that later.) But the point is it make Rime fire happen...a lot. See when you immobilize a target it can not attack. (The Chill Mech) So the damage output is not just reduced, it stops completely. (Attack Capability) Now if we have a Big Bad target that does not get frozen (This is where Shatter comes in) we get slowed targets. Slow targets attack less. Less attacks mean Dmg debuff. What I am trying to say is the point of spell mastery, is to MASTER a spell. Meaning you can use ALL of said spell effects instead of just its basic ones. So having a little more access to Chill and Smolder will make the Thaumaturge into what I think You where trying to get to in the first place. Not just a DPS AOE jockey.

    Now to that last but not least. The At Wills. There is one at wills in need of a retooling. First off I get why magic missile was kept. Its Iconic. Point made. But why is it still on a Thaumaturge? I mean whats the point? No Arcane power field makes it useless by the time you hit lvl 70. So why keep it? I mean a little dmg boost from the odd Arcane stack is OK for a while. But ultimately it's not a good At Will for that class. But not the warlocks Eldritch Blast. I know I know its for them. And not us Wizards...or is it? Can it be? Yes it can. See the Mech on it can be used to drop Smolder stacks. The same way Chilling Cloud drops Chill stacks. Because Wizards NEED A DAMN FIREBALL!!! All you would need to do is ad a smolder stack on the 3rd hit and change the color to Orange. So quicker then you can say Bobs your uncle, We have a Wizards fire ball. Or the Cantrip Fire Bolt.

    That's My two Coppers.
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