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M15: Scourge Warlock Class Changes

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  • darkzod#9528 darkzod Posts: 26Member Arc User
    On the whole, the SW is probably a lame duck compared to other DPS classes. Too bad that we take it that way. The TRs scream until they get their point.

    Nice that we have several options (damnation, etc.), but overall, it brings nothing.

    I would have liked, the SW is pushed forward times.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,981Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • forcemajeureforcemajeure Posts: 69Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    vorphied said:

    Side note: I think it's safe to gauge the relative engagement and contentment from the SW community by the comparative lack of replies in this thread at this early stage. I'm sure we'll continue to have things to complain about, but initial outlook is favorable.

    You can guess at a glance which classes' adjustments are more contentious by the multiple pages of feedback within 24 hours.

    Also, @jaime4312 is completely on point. Flames of Phlegethos has nothing going for it, not even a niche application.

    Side side note: Lack of activity/replies can also be a fair indicator of "no longer play my SW/gave up/don't care". In ads for higher content groups I only see the occasional request for a Templock, to heal the actual damage dealers (and/or some additional small buffs).
  • ibz4ez#9773 ibz4ez Posts: 117Member Arc User

    @lorun2009
    belive me...after three years of playing and testing, i know what i'm doing and i know the potential of my char. But that is not the point. We are DPS and i don't want to get reduced to an add in for tier 3 to buff the holy GWFs

    Couldn't agree more. SW was sold as DPS, packaged as DPS, but delivers nothing of value in the current meta both in dungeon and, in lower levels, solo content.
  • lorun2009lorun2009 Posts: 45Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    @lorun2009
    belive me...after three years of playing and testing, i know what i'm doing and i know the potential of my char. But that is not the point. We are DPS and i don't want to get reduced to an add in for tier 3 to buff the holy GWFs

    They give as 2 options... We can be DPS, we can Buff and this make sense. Why? Because there is enough dps in game and thanks to that we have more chance to get into dungeon. GWF/TR dont have this option, HR have a little buff but not even close to SW buffs. I was asked a lot of time to go as DPS into Tong, Cradle even CR so i don't understand where your problem is.

    In my opinion SW is now the best he has ever been. You can disagree but i have my opinion on that and im sick and tired of hearing that SW sucks in DPS or in general.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,981Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,520Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    The issue I see with SW and DPS is that DPS players want their “selfish” path to be fully competitive. Not everyone enjoys playing a hybrid support, and many who do (like myself) also want our primary DPS options to match up roughly with those available to other “main” DPS classes.

    In the current mod, a good SW may be much better than a bad anything else, but frankly, that’s not saying much and is not enough.
    Sacrilege - SW
    Contagion - DC
    Testament - CW
    Pestilence - HR
    Dominion - OP

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Posts: 225Member Arc User



    The buff from Dark Revelry at let´s say 40k basepower will be 8k +power, not sure how much for the puppet tbh, plus a small rebuff from your companion if in range so +/- 9k powerbuff
    with procced bondings, that´s maybe 11% +dps solo, but at >200k buffed power inside a dungeon it´s +4% at best. So if you are that main dps in a high performing group it is from lower benefit.
    Running solo content, lower geared or in 12k parties it´s nice though + speedbuff + better Lifesteal, but you won´t beat the extradamage from that Killing Curse, MF and infernal wrath.
    If I would think about alternatives in mod14, my pick would be 10 pnt into damnation for PotNH over Dark Revelry , and Killing Curse 5/5. In mod 15 I might take 5/5 MF instead (not sure wich is better).
    That way your party can keep that 18% dps boost and you benefit from that 24% buff/DR buff all time. That´s what I also do with my Hellbringer PVP setup to keep that buff up.

    Dark revelry gives you basically nothing from the companion. Since the base power of a legendary striker companion is 571, that 20% + maximum bondings and legendary bonuses will yield no more than 300 power from DR from the companion. So it's not even your optimist 1k :(
  • slytherin77slytherin77 Posts: 2Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    I main a Templock, but I'm eager to try a Damnation loadout now. I don't mind the SW DPS being lower than other DPS classes, because I think the support is top-notch: We can heal, buff, and debuff often at the same time while still putting out decent, not top tier, DPS.

    Many thanks to the hard working devs for all their class balance work, looks like a huge amount was done. Add to this the recent changes to dungeons / AD, and the upcoming revamp of professions... I'm cautiously optimistic. I hope the game I've loved for years doesn't become something I no longer recognize, but I see a lot of steps in the right direction across the board and I'm very happy.
  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,520Member Arc User

    I main a Templock, but I'm eager to try a Damnation loadout now. I don't mind the SW DPS being lower than other DPS classes, because I think the support is top-notch: We can heal, buff, and debuff often at the same time while still putting out decent, not top tier, DPS.

    I can appreciate the positive sentiment, but it does bear mentioning that SW, even at best, doesn't do all of those things at once. When a SW is focusing on DPS (read: not Templock and not supporting Hellbringer+Pillar of Power), it should be and arguably needs to be on par with its DPS peers. In that context, "decent" isn't very good when we have nearly all of the DPS field and GF outperforming SW currently.

    Sacrilege - SW
    Contagion - DC
    Testament - CW
    Pestilence - HR
    Dominion - OP

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Posts: 199Member Arc User
    The self buffs from damnation really help our damage quite a bit, however in the current game meta burst damage is superior. Speeding up the tick damage of our powers would greatly help, especially in aoe fights since we are only capped at 3 targets for our full damage. Or Changing the warlocks curse mechanic to buff the warlock themselves, instead of 20% to 3 targets we could draw power from cursed targets gaining a 15, 30, 40 damage buff to ourselves. Changing them to be stackable for single target so we can still have 3 stacks but we get lesser returns for the same target 15, 20, 30. Curse consume could take one stack for its effect. Would be a buff for templock as well unless they only share up to a 75% of the warlocks curse damage buff to allies within 30, similarly we would be careful of cursing the same target in aoe unless we would lose some damage. Our aoe has always been pretty weak so this will help greatly.
  • tom#6998 tom Posts: 532Member Arc User
    @balanced#2849 can u tell us if there is still room for more changes or if you maybe alrdy got some for us?
  • daaaqe#8284 daaaqe Posts: 22Member Arc User
    "I think you will all be pleasantly surprised :)."

    Yeah sure
  • giz#2086 giz Posts: 54Member Arc User
    My main class that i was working for two and half years to be a dps class, is nothing compared with your loved gwf or gf, you devs buffed these both and we, Scourge Warlock class still being a buffer/healer class without chance to run as dps (at least you have an awesome friendlist or 18k item level) Of course i'm not pleasantly surprised... I can't see the point of still working to upgrade my warlock if my only role in this game isn't the one that i built him: To be a damage dealer. We haven't choice in this META, we're mediocre buffers and not a dps class in this game.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,981Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Posts: 141Member Arc User

    @lorun2009 Well, if you think SWs are ok DPS, try running against some top tier GFs, CWs, GWFs and of course the soon to die, TR. I do run with some 17k-18k top tier players and I know how I stack up against their damage - better than the majority of SWs, but I am way behind what they can do. And yeah, I've run Tong and CR as main DPS, my SW is 17k and I know how to maximise my damage on those big bosses. So what? Doesn't change the fact that I am way behind when I go up against those other DPS classes (and they're being played by good players).

    @balanced#2849
    I don't want a mega boost to DPS, I want balance so that I can deal equal amounts of damage when compared to those other top DPS classes. Reducing cast times and increasing priority of casting will help, but nerfing KF's max damage while not removing that HP% gimp seems like a backward step. Better would be increasing the min damage and removing the HP% gimp entirely.

    Also, fixing the bugged effectiveness of Brood is also a nerf, even if only a small one.

    Another point, Fiery Bolt has this annoying characteristic, if your target dies before your fiery bolt hits, the spell fizzles. If there is ony a single possible target and that target is dead, no problem. But when you have a group of mobs, and the GWF IBSes your target so he can mark the others, well, too bad. You lose a spell and the mobs are all dead before you can recast it. Frustrating. It would be nice if it it continued and exploded where it was intended. Dead target or not.

    Boosting the soul puppet and the Damnation tree gives a great 2nd tier DPS alternative to play but judging by others that have tested it out, I don't see it being a top tier DPS option.

    I really do appreciate the improvements, but there is more to be done to bring the SW to the same levels as the other DPS classes.


    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • tenetombtenetomb Posts: 104Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 2018
    If you cast Immolation Spirits when an other Immolation Spirits is about to fade, both disappear and you end up casting your daily for nothing.
    Post edited by tenetomb on
  • lorun2009lorun2009 Posts: 45Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    @lorun2009 Well, if you think SWs are ok DPS, try running against some top tier GFs, CWs, GWFs and of course the soon to die, TR. I do run with some 17k-18k top tier players and I know how I stack up against their damage - better than the majority of SWs, but I am way behind what they can do. And yeah, I've run Tong and CR as main DPS, my SW is 17k and I know how to maximise my damage on those big bosses. So what? Doesn't change the fact that I am way behind when I go up against those other DPS classes (and they're being played by good players).

    With current meta 1 dps 4 buffs why should i compare my class to others? This is the biggest problem with ppl, you all want to compare classes. If i run TonG in ~18 min, CR in ~28 min (like most of others dps players) why should i compare? Of course, SW is weaker then others dps classes but with current meta this make no difference... You can see difference only on CODG but im doing 75% to 80% dps compare to other classes so this is still viable.

    This is only my opinion and you dont need to agree with me.

  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Posts: 225Member Arc User



    The buff from Dark Revelry at let´s say 40k basepower will be 8k +power, not sure how much for the puppet tbh, plus a small rebuff from your companion if in range so +/- 9k powerbuff
    with procced bondings, that´s maybe 11% +dps solo, but at >200k buffed power inside a dungeon it´s +4% at best. So if you are that main dps in a high performing group it is from lower benefit.
    Running solo content, lower geared or in 12k parties it´s nice though + speedbuff + better Lifesteal, but you won´t beat the extradamage from that Killing Curse, MF and infernal wrath.
    If I would think about alternatives in mod14, my pick would be 10 pnt into damnation for PotNH over Dark Revelry , and Killing Curse 5/5. In mod 15 I might take 5/5 MF instead (not sure wich is better).
    That way your party can keep that 18% dps boost and you benefit from that 24% buff/DR buff all time. That´s what I also do with my Hellbringer PVP setup to keep that buff up.

    Dark revelry gives you basically nothing from the companion. Since the base power of a legendary striker companion is 571, that 20% + maximum bondings and legendary bonuses will yield no more than 300 power from DR from the companion. So it's not even your optimist 1k :(
    I see.
    Companionbonus is 16+8+4+2+1%= 31% at 5 x legendary.
    At 10275 powerstat on my legend comp + that hidden power from gravestriker (+4 +5 = 1800) comp got 12075 power.
    -->3743 (31%) are transfered. I get 3771 somehow, maybe something about companioninfluence and those Gravestriker, no clue.
    At 12075 power that companion is buffed by Dark Revelry, means he get's buffed by 20% +power from basepower +2415 power
    I get 31% rebuffed via legendary bonus about 750 power in the sum.

    Once DR gave me that rebuff from companion directly (I guess irt was with a multiplier x 2.85 on top) I am 100% sure, it was easy to check those days mod 7 arround, but they must have changed some stuff.
    Now I get it via legendary bonus indirectly and maybe buffed by companioninfluence (those hidden powerstats from rings)
    Not sure I got what you said. How much base power does your companion have? It can't be more than 571 power. Companion influence is another one that only works on top of base power, and doesn't increase the companion base, so whatever companion influence bonus you got, it's gonna work on top of that 571 power base. Pretty sure when I tested it I had gravestriker on the companion, and it didn't seem to affect what the game considers base power for the companion. So unless something changed recently, the companion benefit from DR shouldn't be more than 300 power. I will check that again.

  • vorphiedvorphied Posts: 1,520Member Arc User
    > @lorun2009 said:
    > @lorun2009 Well, if you think SWs are ok DPS, try running against some top tier GFs, CWs, GWFs and of course the soon to die, TR. I do run with some 17k-18k top tier players and I know how I stack up against their damage - better than the majority of SWs, but I am way behind what they can do. And yeah, I've run Tong and CR as main DPS, my SW is 17k and I know how to maximise my damage on those big bosses. So what? Doesn't change the fact that I am way behind when I go up against those other DPS classes (and they're being played by good players).
    >
    >
    >
    > With current meta 1 dps 4 buffs why should i compare my class to others? This is the biggest problem with ppl, you all want to compare classes. If i run TonG in ~18 min, CR in ~28 min (like most of others dps players) why should i compare? Of course, SW is weaker then others dps classes but with current meta this make no difference... You can see difference only on CODG but im doing 75% to 80% dps compare to other classes so this is still viable.
    >
    > This is only my opinion and you dont need to agree with me.

    I’ll freely exercise my option not to agree with your opinion, but I also question why you think that comparing classes is a problem.

    You don’t think it reduces diversity of class selection if players can clearly identify and avoid underperforming classes in a given role? That it isn’t in some way detrimental to the game to disenfranchise certain classes (e.g. “lf1m HDPS (not xyz)”?

    It may be enough to you that SW can do the job of DPS, but most players don’t enjoy the disparity.
    Sacrilege - SW
    Contagion - DC
    Testament - CW
    Pestilence - HR
    Dominion - OP

    NIGHTSWATCH
    The Forgotten Company Alliance
  • lorun2009lorun2009 Posts: 45Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    vorphied said:

    > @lorun2009 said:

    > @lorun2009 Well, if you think SWs are ok DPS, try running against some top tier GFs, CWs, GWFs and of course the soon to die, TR. I do run with some 17k-18k top tier players and I know how I stack up against their damage - better than the majority of SWs, but I am way behind what they can do. And yeah, I've run Tong and CR as main DPS, my SW is 17k and I know how to maximise my damage on those big bosses. So what? Doesn't change the fact that I am way behind when I go up against those other DPS classes (and they're being played by good players).

    >

    >

    >

    > With current meta 1 dps 4 buffs why should i compare my class to others? This is the biggest problem with ppl, you all want to compare classes. If i run TonG in ~18 min, CR in ~28 min (like most of others dps players) why should i compare? Of course, SW is weaker then others dps classes but with current meta this make no difference... You can see difference only on CODG but im doing 75% to 80% dps compare to other classes so this is still viable.

    >

    > This is only my opinion and you dont need to agree with me.



    I’ll freely exercise my option not to agree with your opinion, but I also question why you think that comparing classes is a problem.



    You don’t think it reduces diversity of class selection if players can clearly identify and avoid underperforming classes in a given role? That it isn’t in some way detrimental to the game to disenfranchise certain classes (e.g. “lf1m HDPS (not xyz)”?



    It may be enough to you that SW can do the job of DPS, but most players don’t enjoy the disparity.

    Like i said this is my opinion and im playing to be the best SW not best DPS, buff or heal in game... This is my way to play a game and i never compare one class to another.

    So if SW can do job as DPS where is a problem? :) Like i said current meta is 1 DPS and 4 Support, so if you good enough to do DPS as SW then you can do same thing like other dps classes :) Today i watched some video of SW's doing CR/Cradle/TonG and they do it like every other DPS :)
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,981Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • nabu#4746 nabu Posts: 12Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @lorun2009 it doesn’t appear that you are understanding the point being made. It’s not a matter of “SWs can’t complete content”, the true issue is the fact that SWs are not sought after as a “DPS” addition to group content because the other striker classes provide better results to run speed. The SW class should not be gimped because it has an available support path (which isn’t even advertised upon character creation) but unfortunately this is what has happened. I have never seen a post beyond mod 10 looking for a warlock to fulfill a “Hdps” position, I have however seen posts that read “LF HDPS HR/GWF/TR/GF”. This is the issue with the class (lack of desirability) not that it can’t complete content, because every class can do that it doesn’t make us special.
    Post edited by nabu#4746 on
  • nabu#4746 nabu Posts: 12Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @lorun2009
    Here is the class description upon character creation
    “No subtlety here - you want to do damage”
  • feanor#5283 feanor Posts: 13Member Arc User
    After reading this changelog I can say that Cryptic can write "Complete guidance how to kill
    desire to play your game". it is ridiculous to call it a "balance". I just have nothing to say here.
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