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M15: Scourge Warlock Class Changes

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  • evemjevemj Posts: 58Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    (GRDG = Greater Red Dragon Glyph)

    DT, 3 targets, 4 dummies
    image

    DT, MF, GRDG, 3 targets, 4 dummies


    DT, MF, GRDG, 1 target, 1 dummy


    DT, MF, GRDG, CD, 1 target, 1 dummy


    BOVA ONLY, 2 targets, 2 dummies


    BOVA, MF, GRDG, 2 targets, 2 dummies


    BOVA, MF, GRDG, CD, 2 targets, 2 dummies



    For the record, it stops when Aspect of Flames runs out (20 secs). Then, CD fades out.
    Doesn't happen on loadout without MF.
    Addendum : without GRDG, MF seems to work as expected

    Glyph ran out and too lazy to check how MF behaves on live, so someone else will have to test.

    EDIT: some more loop testing, because why not

    Triggered by:
    - DT
    - melee variant of HoB
    - FB
    - CB
    - HR, but only if you don't slot NPNM
    - HS, did not test curse consume
    - WS, second activation only
    - BOVA, but only its Blade Fling
    - HG

    Not triggered by:
    - EB
    - KF
    - PoP
    - WB
    - AoH

    No clue as to why some powers trigger the loop with MF/GRDG.

    Edit:
    Seems like I didn't have KC, but it loops into the lot as well.
    Post edited by evemj on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,985Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • slyef#6396 slyef Posts: 33Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @schietindebux I think Wraith Claw/Mock Spirit scale with group Buffs. The puppet has your crit chance (so 100%), but has a flat 50% Crit Severity (which means it isn't boosted by Vorpal/Dread).

    @balanced#2849
    The bug I mentionend earlier is that Soul Investiture can not proc/refresh when you reach 5 stacks.
    This means two things when you reach 5 stacks :

    - Your buff will expire after 20s and you have to start from scratch
    - You can't heal the puppet during those 20s (especially relevant if you take the feats to make the puppet tank)

    Otherwise I like the changes to damnation very much, and if the bug above gets fixed, I think Damnation will be better than Fury
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,985Member Arc User
    edited October 2018

    @schietindebux I think Wraith Claw/Mock Spirit scale with group Buffs. The puppet has your crit chance (so 100%), but has a flat 50% Crit Severity (which means it isn't boosted by Vorpal/Dread).

    Otherwise I like the changes to damnation very much, and if the bug above gets fixed, I think Damnation will be better than Fury

    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    @balanced#2849

    Other thing about Soul Puppet:

    In mod 13, you changed the cooldown to respawn a new puppet when dealing damage to 10 seconds, down from 15 seconds because thqt amount of time was quite long and not having thqt npc would mean losing a 15% damage buff from Gastly Commander which is pretty significant.

    Now, for mod 15, you got that soul puppet cooldow increased back to 15 seconds, up from 10, so, may I ask why you did such a thing? Now that puppet is supposed to be more significant for Damnation and still is tied to that 15% damage buff + cooldown reduction, what's the point of the cooldown nerf? Sure, you can heal the puppet now but there will be times in which it will get killed and then that longer cooldown to get it back will hurt dps.

    It just makes no sense, hopefully you can get that soul puppet cooldown reduced back to 10 seconds, the nerfed one (15 secs) is counterproductive to the build o.O
  • etelgrinetelgrin Posts: 1,566Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    Hello everybody,

    I've tested the Soul Puppet build in PvP. It performs okaish beside two facts:

    - Soul Puppet is moving very slowly and is very slow in response (for instance, time to attack, time to move after the opponent - it will unviable it for PvE cause its too slow).
    - When Soul Puppet actually attacks it does not build the stacks of Soul Investiture, nor another stack appears when the curse is lifted but the soul puppet is healed as if another is to appear. This is probably intended behaviour but it still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't build soul investiture stacks whence another soul puppet is supposed to appear.

    Against nerfed Rogue:



    Against OP:


    Pug Panther - PvP SW

    Youtube Channel
    Scourge Warlock Haven - Build Videos - PvP Content - Other Features.

    R.I.P
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,985Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    etelgrin said:

    Hello everybody,

    I've tested the Soul Puppet build in PvP. It performs okaish beside two facts:

    - Soul Puppet is moving very slowly and is very slow in response (for instance, time to attack, time to move after the opponent - it will unviable it for PvE cause its too slow).
    - When Soul Puppet actually attacks it does not build the stacks of Soul Investiture, nor another stack appears when the curse is lifted but the soul puppet is healed as if another is to appear. This is probably intended behaviour but it still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't build soul investiture stacks whence another soul puppet is supposed to appear.

    Against nerfed Rogue:



    Against OP:

    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 39Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    can anyone support my feeling that murderous flames only redistributes damage for AoE but does NOT give 30% extra damage?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,985Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • etelgrinetelgrin Posts: 1,566Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    etelgrin said:

    Hello everybody,

    I've tested the Soul Puppet build in PvP. It performs okaish beside two facts:

    - Soul Puppet is moving very slowly and is very slow in response (for instance, time to attack, time to move after the opponent - it will unviable it for PvE cause its too slow).
    - When Soul Puppet actually attacks it does not build the stacks of Soul Investiture, nor another stack appears when the curse is lifted but the soul puppet is healed as if another is to appear. This is probably intended behaviour but it still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't build soul investiture stacks whence another soul puppet is supposed to appear.

    Against nerfed Rogue:



    Against OP:

    In your video you got up to 2 stacks of Soulinvestiture (teh green icon) from WC-HG (stack by WC consume) against that pally
    There are ways to stack Soul Investiture faster.
    1. using Accursed Souls 1 stack
    2. using Wraith Shadow-WC -recast WS -> 2 stacks at once from WC consume and from calling a puppet by recasting WS

    I´d really like to know wich stats are share with Puppet beside HP and critchance. Deflectionrate, RI, LS?
    Damnation will be strong and the go for in mod 15 PVP I am sure, +protection +dps boost and a puppet to soak up buffed BB+Opressive Darkness.. in case your puppet survives. Might be benefital to have AccSouls on demand, otherwise you lose all your benefits.
    Did you monitor Parting balsphemy or Relentless Curse in those fights , bc one of those two would be the pick in a full 41 pts damnation-build for PVP and maybe PVE also.
    Yes I did, parting blasphemy procs as it should.

    Major selling point for Damnlock in my opinion in this case over Fury is survivability provided by the way we can now build the puppet, but it still remains very lackluster in terms of damage at least in PvP, I don't know for PvE, the damage is pitiful from like 600 on Pala to 1.1k on CW.

    Wraithshadow is unviable because its utter HAMSTER I can't imagine slotting it only for the Soul Puppet purpose because that one encounter loss is unafordable by SW, its not that we have an IBS and so long we are good but you can replace it for Battle Fury and still be viable, no we can't sacrifice an encounter slot for this HAMSTER. I only slotted HG because its mid point, procs Ghost, does mediocre damage and some control (or no) but its at least decent.

    Accursed Souls sometimes doesn't even do anyting. No heal, no hits. Very wierd behaviour. As you probably realized, I have it there but its still 100x times better to blindly cast Brood than this thing.

    To ME, Wraith Shadow (really no slow, no nothing beside the ghost, the damage is somewhat nonexistent), Flames of Phelegethos (a joke version of Brood of Hadar), Eldritch Blast (really not even aoe at last strike), Vampiric Embrace (is so awsome that even templocks doesn't use it), Curse Bite (what the actual f...) sadly now even Arms of Hadar got into my list of uselessness to be never adressed.

    Passive wise, we got plenty, maybe it would even be easier to list the actual useful passives instead but some of my favs are:

    Snuff Out & Dark One Blessing exequo - one of the what the actual f... ones, Prince of Hell - somewhat good design but never to be used, FoE - should be damage buff on SW instead of that debuff thing aka DO DC ......

    Lastly, thing that made me play SW back in the days when I first met OP, is Warlocks Bargain and sad truth its been nerfed too hard.

    I just want to write this thing in bold, 4x tenebrous enchantment does more damage total than 3 SW powers combined for PvP overall dps. and so on will always be every proc based on health, this way SW builds damage through stacking things like health because ultimately it not only feels better, it actualy provides better DPS, many is true same for Aura of Courage procs for stacking HP in PvE for this comparison.

    Pug Panther - PvP SW

    Youtube Channel
    Scourge Warlock Haven - Build Videos - PvP Content - Other Features.

    R.I.P
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 39Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @schietindebux i usally find your comments quite competent and would like to ask what do you think about sacrificing MF and going for dark revelry in temptation tree instead.

    i currently have a "funlock" damnation build in the current mod where i did this hoping to buff the puppet with DR and i found it surprisingly nice. as i said "funlock" (it is a dwarven lady btw) just to see how much one could make "wrong" but still staying alive.
  • rifter1969rifter1969 Posts: 469Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    The one thing that has me curious is why Firey Bolt no longer affects targets around the primary?
  • zacoria1405zacoria1405 Posts: 230Member Arc User

    The one thing that has me curious is why Firey Bolt no longer affects targets around the primary?

    It does still hit targets around the primary but not for higher numbers which it has been doing lately. If you test it on dummies for instance at present it will hit primary for say 250k and the dummies on left and right for 280k. This is what they are changing so that all 3 dummies are being correctly damaged for 250k.
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Posts: 225Member Arc User

    Dear @balanced#2849 , thank you very much for all of this. I am quite sure that damantion will get really powerfull with all those changes. Allowing the puppet to crit and giving it full buffs will be going to be amazing imho. I really thought that you had have forgotten us a bit, but it seems that you used the time well. There is only that one thing that i like to get looked at in more detail and maybe there is a kind of misconception on my side, but maybe other could support my point: i have the strong fealing, that murderous flames not really is a buff but only an additional AoE. My impression is that those 30% (nowadays) are subtracted from the initial hit and then spreaded to the surrounding or given to that single target again as stated in the tooltip. Maybe i am wrong but i really would like to get a confirmation that it was really intended to make damage greater and not only redistribute it.
    But as said: after all great work i think, making me looking gladly at the things that are up to come.

    You probably read charisma's or fuzzyboot's guide. No, MF has no effect at all on the KF main hit. All it does is create additional damage of 30% of where KF hit for. This additional damage will either be divided among targets around or be dealt fully to the main target if it's the only one available.

    It's pretty simple to test, just get a constant damage weapon, hit once with MF and once without, you will cllearly notice the KF damage is constant. That's just one of the reasons charisma's and fuzzyboot's guides are so terrible. The effect of MF is actually more important on single target situations on live. On mod 15 it will probably a lot with aoe as well since it affectes a few more powers.
  • naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Posts: 225Member Arc User

    @schietindebux i usally find your comments quite competent and would like to ask what do you think about sacrificing MF and going for dark revelry in temptation tree instead.

    i currently have a "funlock" damnation build in the current mod where i did this hoping to buff the puppet with DR and i found it surprisingly nice. as i said "funlock" (it is a dwarven lady btw) just to see how much one could make "wrong" but still staying alive.

    If you are doing a fury build on live, there is no reason not to have MF.
  • darkzod#9528 darkzod Posts: 26Member Arc User
    The winners are the GWFS. The only damage class that does the damage. The TR were overpowered in Mod 14. The warlocks were never so strong and therefore you can barely reduce anything. It is a pity that a DPS class should settle for buff. The new changes make it a little weaker again :-( Why? Instead of pushing him up, only one path is revived. Without any impact on the game.

    Everyone is talking about the TR being nerft, but the SW is constantly nerfing. Not only from Mod 15.

    I think the election as a supporter is good, but I also want to do damage. For that I have chosen the SW. At the moment it is almost impossible to get into Tong or CODG as DPS.

    The damnation is good to get some variety, but will not solve the problem.

  • commanderdata002commanderdata002 Posts: 281Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    The winners are the GWFS. The only damage class that does the damage. The TR were overpowered in Mod 14. The warlocks were never so strong and therefore you can barely reduce anything. It is a pity that a DPS class should settle for buff. The new changes make it a little weaker again :-( Why? Instead of pushing him up, only one path is revived. Without any impact on the game.

    Weaker?
    Are you sure? There is a 20% dmg buff to KF, HG, FB.
    It counts to TC and creeping death.

    I haven't tested it but it seems very good to me.
    "What do you mean Aragorn that I can only 'control' the Balrog and can't damage it!" Gandalf the Grey.
  • etelgrinetelgrin Posts: 1,566Member Arc User

    The winners are the GWFS. The only damage class that does the damage. The TR were overpowered in Mod 14. The warlocks were never so strong and therefore you can barely reduce anything. It is a pity that a DPS class should settle for buff. The new changes make it a little weaker again :-( Why? Instead of pushing him up, only one path is revived. Without any impact on the game.

    Everyone is talking about the TR being nerft, but the SW is constantly nerfing. Not only from Mod 15.

    I think the election as a supporter is good, but I also want to do damage. For that I have chosen the SW. At the moment it is almost impossible to get into Tong or CODG as DPS.

    The damnation is good to get some variety, but will not solve the problem.

    Its in people heads, properly build sw for dps is really good and the runs are as fast if not faster than with mediocre gwf or tr... this applies for both hellbringer dpser build and soulbinder depser build, after changes, SB even more.

    Pug Panther - PvP SW

    Youtube Channel
    Scourge Warlock Haven - Build Videos - PvP Content - Other Features.

    R.I.P
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,985Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,985Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,985Member Arc User
    edited October 2018
    *deleted
    waiting for a fair dialogue and feedback on companies side to solve open issues, until then no more support from my side.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • vigito37#6369 vigito37 Posts: 16Member Arc User
    Why not Cursing more Than 3 targets has been a huge question of mine since I started playing the class . GFs and Gwfs can mark more Than 3. Self buffing is huge and we don't have much of that. Or Feats or powers that apply warlocks curse. All other classes are very explosive and we take a bit longer than others to self buff, lesser curse DoT is almost useless when everything gets one shot (MoBs) . And Redusing Warlocks Curse casting time.

    We have a buff Paragon (templock) but Zero group buffing Personals.

    -Reduce casting time of Soul Scorch, perfect example GF griffon wrath which happens to have a priority hit.
    -Flames of Panthegos should have an activation reduction, wider AoE and curse all targets afflicted. (It is a giant green skull)
    - Harrow storm activation faster and wider range.
    -Accurse Souls increase our damage by each target hit.
    - Eldrich blast buff base damage, and increase AoE range (its our only AoE At-will, make it more viable)
    - Tyrannical curse compensate some AP if target dies before full duration of the power.
    -Killing flames should not activate if target dies before killing flames hits the target. Improve the damage even more since its our only big hitting encounter
    - Reduce activation of Arms of Hadar, debuffing the target.
    - NoPityNoMercy should also buff another at-will go make us expand the at-wills we play with.
    -Gates of hell automatically appear 50' on front of you and reducing the blasts activation to improve its casting.
    -Imobilation Spirts to attack different targets to also make them more of an AoE daily.
    -Blades of Vanquish army do 50% of its total damage all at once by recasting it while active. And not take 6 seconds to do all of its damage. (Giving us the option of being more explosive)

    We only have 2 ways to self gain combat advantage, NpNm or going templock. Address that

    We have no other power, feat, or personal that buffs our Power besides Dark Revelry.

    Address the issue where Orcus set not working with our entity powers such as Pillar of power, brood bites, harrow storm etc.

    Most of our feats increase damage by 10%-15% other classes I see 30%-50%

    Or improve our Aura Of Courage interaction.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    edited September 2018
    @balanced#2849

    Please refer to what @bellkazi and @schietindebux have found out, you effectivelly nerfed HG damage significantly by reducing the amoung ticks it does when curse consuming, there's no reason to do that to SW, the weakest damage dealer.

    You need to consider that for each HG (curse consume) missing tick, besides being less damage by the encounter itself, it's 1missing proc of Aura of Courage, Killing Curse and weapon enchantment hit like Fey, that's a significant damage loss there and I don't understand why you did that.

    If you wish to reduce HG cc uptime for pvp reasons, fine, but at least buff its base damage to make up for the amount of ticks and procs you made it lose; you need to keep in mind with this HG mod 15 version you also effectively are slowing Soulbinder rotation down (which is already slow) by virtue of making it generate less soulsparks (so we have to soend extra time using Essence Defiller instead of casting Soul Scorch 1 or 2 times already, it makes us lose some of that attack window when we buffs and debuffs are at their peak) as well as reported by @mirajanesitri , that's yet another unneeded nerf -_-

    As you don't want to make KF a proper nuke by keeping its 2 worst issues unaddressed, please at least consider making HG our universal dot nuke by simply giving it Dreadteft damage values or maybe even slightly higher and that way you can call it a day for that encounter power, at least for a while.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • ibz4ez#9773 ibz4ez Posts: 117Member Arc User
    edited September 2018

    @balanced#2849



    Please refer to what @bellkazi and @schietindebux have found out, you effectivelly nerfed HG damage significantly by reducing the amoung ticks it does when curse consuming, there's no reason to do that to SW, the weakest damage dealer.



    You need to consider that for each HG (curse consume) missing tick, besides being less damage by the encounter itself, it's 1missing proc of Aura of Courage, Killing Curse and weapon enchantment hit like Fey, that's a significant damage loss there and I don't understand why you did that.



    If you wish to reduce HG cc uptime for pvp reasons, fine, but at least buff its base damage to make up for the amount of ticks and procs you made it lose; you need to keep in mind with this HG mod 15 version you also effectively are slowing Soulbinder rotation down (which is already slow) by virtue of making it generate less soulsparks (so we have to soend extra time using Essence Defiller instead of casting Soul Scorch 1 or 2 times already, it makes us lose some of that attack window when we buffs and debuffs are at their peak) as well as reported by @mirajanesitri , that's yet another unneeded nerf -_-



    As you don't want to make KF a proper nuke by keeping its 2 worst issues unaddressed, please at least consider making HG our universal dot nuke by simply giving it Dreadteft damage values or maybe even slightly higher and that way you can call it a day for that encounter power, at least for a while.

    I bump the sentiment, logic and content of this post.

    HG is indeed weaker in MOD15 and that's, quite frankly, a basic mistake. There is no doubt in the minds of anyone in the community that SW needs a buff in DPS to consider it a proper class in this game. So nerfing any power at all in SW class is contradicting the very reason you are even making these class "Balance" changes, let alone the one power that needs buffing the most.

    I would also like to go further by saying that these class "Balance" changes do not go far enough. There was a lot of hype generated in the upcomings to this module in regards to finally having a usable SW HDPS class, and the results are disappointing at best. Instead of buffing the class to compete with any other DPS class in the game, including GF, GWF and the newly created DPS DC, these changes simply put Damnation on par with Fury.

    In essence, for all these changes, the only difference that's really been made is that there are now 2 usable DPS featpaths for SW that are both kick out the same unpowered amount of damage. To put it bluntly, that simply isn't good enough.


  • manufracturemanufracture Posts: 85Member Arc User
    [Insert Power]: Activation time slightly reduced
    [Insert Power]: Now has priority in being cast, will not be interrupted by other powers


    This fix for me is what I am looking forward to the most - I don't know how many times I have cursed myself for moving through my rotation too quickly! I thought I was only the hamster making this mistake :p

    Also cannot wait to take my Puppet out for a whirl again, I thought our relationship was over but clearly there is hope.

    Thank you for all the love we have been getting - M13 brought us back into the game, hopefully M15 will get us closer to the apex we so deserve <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
  • darkzod#9528 darkzod Posts: 26Member Arc User
    The increase of some powers in nice, sure...but doesn't change the situation, to get reduced to a buffer in tier 3. Hell yea...we are DDs, give us this role back

    Sadly now they take one of our few AoE powers by nerfing curse synergy on FB

    Is Hellish Rebuke bugged on Preview? Just get nearly 25% damage.
  • rifter1969rifter1969 Posts: 469Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @zacoria1405
    Thanks for clarifying that for me. i didn't realize it was doing more than it was supposed to. So I can live with then.
    I like using FB in my Fury build.

    With these new adjustments to Damnation, looks like I might have to make a new loadout, and bring the puppet out of retirement ;)

  • wisper2048wisper2048 Posts: 140Member Arc User
    zeatrex said:

    I pretty much play SW to hang around with my partner in crime > Mr. Soul Puppet, so this is a huge plus for me so far.... Hopefully it is as good in-game than it is on text.

    I have not hanged with soul puppet for the long time since nerf, I believe, the soul puppet was female before transformation (basing on the chest form). So using 'Mr.' is somewhat inappropriate.
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