I´d say fix premade queues, concerning the ability to run double tank or triple leader (OP/DC/DC) and you can buff that tactitian on the same level as OP, otherwise I see no benefit in having another "mega-buff-tank" in the game only leading to an even more silly meta.
Other way is nerf OP down to earth on the same level as GF in terms of buffs/debuffs and tank ability, by: 1. Cap or downgrade powershare same as ITF was capped in former mods, an open powerbuff leading to 20-40%+ dps beside a well build OP, depending on the total buffed power and your own basepower, another option is to make aura gifts a tier4 feat... wich will only lead to "Light tree" being the next meta I guess. 2. Cap Aoc in terms of benefit from buffs, by that it won´t be the main source of dps for some classes, following ACT -> this is a point, that cryptic said to "take a look at" but forgot about it, as theay do so many times.. 3. Cap feats like vengefull judge and flash of light, leading to encounter reset of allies , making recovery for allies to some degree obsolete. 4. Cap the ammount of temp HP from TW, actually leading to the fact, that OP´s invest into offensive stats, instead of defensive stats ->tbh, this would be a realistic change since no 11k OP can stack power/HP exclusively and defense/deflect/LS same way a 17k can, this might inflict the actual meta and increase the need of GF tanks, since you might find more devo OP´s (focussing on powerbuffs/recovery etc.) combined with a GF-tank I think, wich actually is the meta anyway. Only a highly geared OP will be able to act as a competent powersharer+tank, and he has to actually tank content, instead of going auto-mode, same as care about other defense stats than HP only.
Honestly I don´t know.. this threat is about GF to be competetive to an actually totally broken/overpowered an unthoughtfull released class ->OP The main issue is not only tankyness but "megaton-buffs", wich favours OP over GF. Devs should care about it, but they don´t, and I am strikly against more powercreep in terms of buffs on top of buffs. A buff towards the actual tank abilities from GF, honestly a well build GF can tank content anyway, will not solve that issue of "A class, not wanted to tank". If we would follow actual logic GF-tank + devo OP should be requested all the time, but we see the request for prot OP in channels. The playercommunity favours the slower solution over the faster one, running a "two tank-safety setup" or run without GF at all, hard to fail any content, except broken swarms of bats.
Anyway doing all that , devs also need to fix insignia boni that synergize with power and make parties immortal or buff recovery into the sky -> devs should have taken notice and care about it since long... but they don´t
Are you guys Stating out tacticians are in a bad spot? Or all this discussion is looking to improve things?
The threat is about an improvement for Tactitan to "tank", but an improvement will not solve the issue about not being requested. The solution is not that easy, since the ability to tank is not the the mayor reason , why OP is requested 99% -> buffs. One OP can tank and buff in easy mode, no need for another tank, wich is weaker in terms of buffs, tanking, and aggro management. GF in most cases has to fight for that supporter spot with DC, Hunter, SW, CW or should go dps/buff.
Are you guys Stating out tacticians are in a bad spot? Or all this discussion is looking to improve things?
The threat is about an improvement for Tactitan to "tank", but an improvement will not solve the issue about not being requested. The solution is not that easy, since the ability to tank is not the the mayor reason , why OP is requested 99% -> buffs. One OP can tank and buff in easy mode, no need for another tank, wich is weaker in terms of buffs, tanking, and aggro management. GF in most cases has to fight for that supporter spot with DC, Hunter, SW, CW or should go dps/buff.
Many players want the OP for AoC, Powersharing and Bane. These alone provide some really nice added damage for DPS.
As for a GF we have ITF, Crushing Pin, Command Strike and AP regen.
The issue for a GF vs an OP is that at 18K GF Tac gains nothing over a 12K GF Tac. The OP tank at 18K has more buffing potential than a 12k OP Tank has.
The best combo group from my experience is this...
GF Tact as the tank OP Healer DO DC Hybrid DPS / AC DC Pure DPS
This group makeup get the buffs from both the GF and OP and provides the best combo for a 5 man group. Add to it the dmg buff from the DO and the Hybrid DPS and you will see even greater results or replace the Hybrid DPS with a AC/DC for further buffing and the solo DPS can now shred through content even faster and the DO can go more DPS focused.
Most groups rather run 2 DPS and when you do that you have to lose a buffer and that buffer is the GF and the OP healer becomes a tank because he powershares.
What many want is an improvement to the GF Tac build so that there is little difference between a GF and a OP. The thing with GF is that you can run as a DPS and you still can provide ITF and crushing pin and if you want command strike. This makes the Tac build extras less useful than a OP and the GF becomes a DPS of sorts when this happens, making the GF Tac build a second thought for 5 man groups and even 10 man groups.
I honestly don't care which tank I run with; both are effective it is just the mindset that OP tank > GF. For me I prefer OP as healadin, GF as the tank, a DO DC, AC DC/ Hybrid DPS and a pure DPS. This group from my experience flies through all content.
I think it would be nice if we had useful protector and tactic (I skip gf dps or dps hybrid) You know tact is only for buff: stat mainly Int, skills only for buff like ITF, strengthened CS etc., feats they strengthen skills/buffs. Pets, set, and weap ench also just only for buffs. A strong damage bonus for team members, but significant reduction of hp, def, DR etc. That buff would have problems with being a tank. Second choice we would also have GF protector and tank. Stat mainly CON, skills only for protect and keep aggro like strengthened KV, enforced threat, iron warrior. Set, pets only for tank. Feats increasing resistance, CR, etc. This GF would be a great protector and finally tank, but would be a weak buff. If we had a clear difference between buff and tank there would be a chance that people will take in pt. not only dps, heal and buff/tank, but they take dps, heal, buff and tank/protector. If roles buff and tank on GF/OP they will not be separated we will be more and more insane in this madness. 1 DPS + 4 buffs (hybrid buff/tank, buff/heal). Im afraid, in the current situation gf buff can only be improved but without separated into the roles, tank will be redundant.
(about tact and protect. skills, stat etc. these are just suggestions, guidance on the direction)
Could rework tac capstone so that using a daily power increases the potency of ur buffs/rebuffs by equal to half of ur unbuffed deflection chance for a set amount of time. A passive effect could be run speed or an extra debuff for marked targets or deflection severity something like that or none at allall but run speed is nice. Won't exactly be up to par with op probably but could set us apart from dps gfs at the very lease. Buffs are better than stacking dps that's y a hybrid like that is more desirable since we have the same buffs pretty much.
Could rework tac capstone so that using a daily power increases the potency of ur buffs/rebuffs by equal to half of ur unbuffed deflection chance for a set amount of time. A passive effect could be run speed or an extra debuff for marked targets or deflection severity something like that or none at allall but run speed is nice. Won't exactly be up to par with op probably but could set us apart from dps gfs at the very lease. Buffs are better than stacking dps that's y a hybrid like that is more desirable since we have the same buffs pretty much.
The tact capstone would actually be really good if it triggered when hit instead of on health loss.
Even when running with minimum defensive stats the group defensive bonuses make you so tanky that it's actually difficult to lose a significant amount of hitpoints in end game groups.
It's extremely noticeable when a Tact in my group does almost die though as it's pretty much an instant daily fill for my CW.
If Martial Mastery were changed to provide small consistent bonuses in ap when hit I think it would turn into a far more reliable and useful buff for the classes that like to spam dailies (CW/TR/DC/OP/SW).
> @dairyzeus said: > Could rework tac capstone so that using a daily power increases the potency of ur buffs/rebuffs by equal to half of ur unbuffed deflection chance for a set amount of time. A passive effect could be run speed or an extra debuff for marked targets or deflection severity something like that or none at allall but run speed is nice. Won't exactly be up to par with op probably but could set us apart from dps gfs at the very lease. Buffs are better than stacking dps that's y a hybrid like that is more desirable since we have the same buffs pretty much. > > The tact capstone would actually be really good if it triggered when hit instead of on health loss. > > Even when running with minimum defensive stats the group defensive bonuses make you so tanky that it's actually difficult to lose a significant amount of hitpoints in end game groups. > > It's extremely noticeable when a Tact in my group does almost die though as it's pretty much an instant daily fill for my CW. > > If Martial Mastery were changed to provide small consistent bonuses in ap when hit I think it would turn into a far more reliable and useful buff for the classes that like to spam dailies (CW/TR/DC/OP/SW).
Probably easier to do this yeah, usually play my dc so ap comes pretty quickly.
Many mods ago it was all about the GF tanks because our ITF was based off of our defense stat, until it was nerfed to what we have today. OP's have pretty much been the go to tank from that point due to infinite Bubble (which was nerfed) and their buffs that scale with stats (just as our ITF use to).
I'm sure things will get nerfed/buffed and it will be GF's time to be the "flavor of month" again. Honestly as a GF I don't have issues finding groups. I get in with people, they see I'm a good player, friend requests come, invites follow.
I do feel bad for the newer GF's trying to rise up through the ranks though. The "average playerbase" if you will, have made it the norm for OP's tanking.
@dairyzeus your suggestion regarding capstone is pretty good. A way to make MM less bad is to run Knight's Challenge instead of Enforced Threat in boss fights (more aggro and more ap generated), try that out for example vs Ras Nsi and ask your dps friends if they like it When I still ran my GF (which had subpar stats for tac), I managed to make warlocks cast a 2nd daily while Brood of Hadar or Flames of Phlegethos was still up xD (vs Ras Nsi for example)
@dairyzeus your suggestion regarding capstone is pretty good. A way to make MM less bad is to run Knight's Challenge instead of Enforced Threat in boss fights (more aggro and more ap generated), try that out for example vs Ras Nsi and ask your dps friends if they like it When I still ran my GF (which had subpar stats for tac), I managed to make warlocks cast a 2nd daily while Brood of Hadar or Flames of Phlegethos was still up xD (vs Ras Nsi for example)
@jaime4312#3760 I do run knight's challenge even as a tact because my tact is a bit of a hybrid. I still rarely loose health in an end game group.
Yes sometime I'll get one shot and soulforge (which my DC and SW friends love), but that's far rarer than taking no health loss.
I also reommend KC as tact. Incoming damage is higher so your AP buff is. It´s also an option to run KC as IV conqueror, hybrid dps. Doing so you stack Wreckless attacker same as SWW in a comfort easy way.
I also reommend KC as tact. Incoming damage is higher so your AP buff is. It´s also an option to run KC as IV conqueror, hybrid dps. Doing so you stack Wreckless attacker same as SWW in a comfort easy way.
I use KC all the time as a Tac just for that reason and it keeps the boss on me due to how KC works, it allows me to actually do my job, hold threat so everyone can do their job.
My main toon is Sir Arthur Dayne 18k+ tac gf on XBOX one. for what i see on the xbox only a few have well built tac gf's and truly understand the role of a tactician. its to buff the group not to main tank. like i saw in the previous thread, theres a third paragon " Protector " thats the tank GF. most NEVERWINTER FOOLS get it twisted shield equals tank. If any Tac GFs on xbox need help or advice on the True AP build DMG buff GF feel free to send me a tell.
Im think this is a problem. Because i dont want play like buff (otherwise DC or OP was a better buffs). I want do more in pt. not only spaming ITF, buffs and debuffs from waep ench, pets, set etc. are weak and unnoticeable. But plaing like protector/tank it isn't playable. Probably no one would take to the team gf prot. This game have only 2 mainly specializations DPS and buff. It's doesn't metter you play heal, tank or second dps, if you dont use buffs they kick you. So you must play only like hybrid dps/buff (i dont like this), tank/buff (but now some BOSS attacks they will destroy you on one or two hits) or play only like buff. I started to play Nev few months ago and play only my gf buff/tank but now it's unplayable for me, and it doesn't give me any pleasure.
Comments
Other way is nerf OP down to earth on the same level as GF in terms of buffs/debuffs and tank ability, by:
1. Cap or downgrade powershare same as ITF was capped in former mods, an open powerbuff leading to 20-40%+ dps beside a well build OP, depending on the total buffed power and your own basepower, another option is to make aura gifts a tier4 feat... wich will only lead to "Light tree" being the next meta I guess.
2. Cap Aoc in terms of benefit from buffs, by that it won´t be the main source of dps for some classes, following ACT
-> this is a point, that cryptic said to "take a look at" but forgot about it, as theay do so many times..
3. Cap feats like vengefull judge and flash of light, leading to encounter reset of allies , making recovery for allies to some degree obsolete.
4. Cap the ammount of temp HP from TW, actually leading to the fact, that OP´s invest into offensive stats, instead of defensive stats
->tbh, this would be a realistic change since no 11k OP can stack power/HP exclusively and defense/deflect/LS same way a 17k can, this might inflict the actual meta and increase the need of GF tanks, since you might find more devo OP´s (focussing on powerbuffs/recovery etc.) combined with a GF-tank I think, wich actually is the meta anyway.
Only a highly geared OP will be able to act as a competent powersharer+tank, and he has to actually tank content, instead of going auto-mode, same as care about other defense stats than HP only.
Honestly I don´t know.. this threat is about GF to be competetive to an actually totally broken/overpowered an unthoughtfull released class ->OP
The main issue is not only tankyness but "megaton-buffs", wich favours OP over GF.
Devs should care about it, but they don´t, and I am strikly against more powercreep in terms of buffs on top of buffs.
A buff towards the actual tank abilities from GF, honestly a well build GF can tank content anyway, will not solve that issue of "A class, not wanted to tank".
If we would follow actual logic GF-tank + devo OP should be requested all the time, but we see the request for prot OP in channels.
The playercommunity favours the slower solution over the faster one, running a "two tank-safety setup" or run without GF at all, hard to fail any content, except broken swarms of bats.
Anyway doing all that , devs also need to fix insignia boni that synergize with power and make parties immortal or buff recovery into the sky -> devs should have taken notice and care about it since long... but they don´t
The solution is not that easy, since the ability to tank is not the the mayor reason , why OP is requested 99% -> buffs.
One OP can tank and buff in easy mode, no need for another tank, wich is weaker in terms of buffs, tanking, and aggro management.
GF in most cases has to fight for that supporter spot with DC, Hunter, SW, CW or should go dps/buff.
As for a GF we have ITF, Crushing Pin, Command Strike and AP regen.
The issue for a GF vs an OP is that at 18K GF Tac gains nothing over a 12K GF Tac. The OP tank at 18K has more buffing potential than a 12k OP Tank has.
The best combo group from my experience is this...
GF Tact as the tank
OP Healer
DO DC
Hybrid DPS / AC DC
Pure DPS
This group makeup get the buffs from both the GF and OP and provides the best combo for a 5 man group. Add to it the dmg buff from the DO and the Hybrid DPS and you will see even greater results or replace the Hybrid DPS with a AC/DC for further buffing and the solo DPS can now shred through content even faster and the DO can go more DPS focused.
Most groups rather run 2 DPS and when you do that you have to lose a buffer and that buffer is the GF and the OP healer becomes a tank because he powershares.
What many want is an improvement to the GF Tac build so that there is little difference between a GF and a OP. The thing with GF is that you can run as a DPS and you still can provide ITF and crushing pin and if you want command strike. This makes the Tac build extras less useful than a OP and the GF becomes a DPS of sorts when this happens, making the GF Tac build a second thought for 5 man groups and even 10 man groups.
I honestly don't care which tank I run with; both are effective it is just the mindset that OP tank > GF. For me I prefer OP as healadin, GF as the tank, a DO DC, AC DC/ Hybrid DPS and a pure DPS. This group from my experience flies through all content.
You know tact is only for buff: stat mainly Int, skills only for buff like ITF, strengthened CS etc., feats they strengthen skills/buffs. Pets, set, and weap ench also just only for buffs. A strong damage bonus for team members, but significant reduction of hp, def, DR etc. That buff would have problems with being a tank.
Second choice we would also have GF protector and tank. Stat mainly CON, skills only for protect and keep aggro like strengthened KV, enforced threat, iron warrior. Set, pets only for tank. Feats increasing resistance, CR, etc. This GF would be a great protector and finally tank, but would be a weak buff.
If we had a clear difference between buff and tank there would be a chance that people will take in pt. not only dps, heal and buff/tank, but they take dps, heal, buff and tank/protector.
If roles buff and tank on GF/OP they will not be separated we will be more and more insane in this madness. 1 DPS + 4 buffs (hybrid buff/tank, buff/heal).
Im afraid, in the current situation gf buff can only be improved but without separated into the roles, tank will be redundant.
(about tact and protect. skills, stat etc. these are just suggestions, guidance on the direction)
Even when running with minimum defensive stats the group defensive bonuses make you so tanky that it's actually difficult to lose a significant amount of hitpoints in end game groups.
It's extremely noticeable when a Tact in my group does almost die though as it's pretty much an instant daily fill for my CW.
If Martial Mastery were changed to provide small consistent bonuses in ap when hit I think it would turn into a far more reliable and useful buff for the classes that like to spam dailies (CW/TR/DC/OP/SW).
> Could rework tac capstone so that using a daily power increases the potency of ur buffs/rebuffs by equal to half of ur unbuffed deflection chance for a set amount of time. A passive effect could be run speed or an extra debuff for marked targets or deflection severity something like that or none at allall but run speed is nice. Won't exactly be up to par with op probably but could set us apart from dps gfs at the very lease. Buffs are better than stacking dps that's y a hybrid like that is more desirable since we have the same buffs pretty much.
>
> The tact capstone would actually be really good if it triggered when hit instead of on health loss.
>
> Even when running with minimum defensive stats the group defensive bonuses make you so tanky that it's actually difficult to lose a significant amount of hitpoints in end game groups.
>
> It's extremely noticeable when a Tact in my group does almost die though as it's pretty much an instant daily fill for my CW.
>
> If Martial Mastery were changed to provide small consistent bonuses in ap when hit I think it would turn into a far more reliable and useful buff for the classes that like to spam dailies (CW/TR/DC/OP/SW).
Probably easier to do this yeah, usually play my dc so ap comes pretty quickly.
Many mods ago it was all about the GF tanks because our ITF was based off of our defense stat, until it was nerfed to what we have today. OP's have pretty much been the go to tank from that point due to infinite Bubble (which was nerfed) and their buffs that scale with stats (just as our ITF use to).
I'm sure things will get nerfed/buffed and it will be GF's time to be the "flavor of month" again. Honestly as a GF I don't have issues finding groups. I get in with people, they see I'm a good player, friend requests come, invites follow.
I do feel bad for the newer GF's trying to rise up through the ranks though. The "average playerbase" if you will, have made it the norm for OP's tanking.
Yes sometime I'll get one shot and soulforge (which my DC and SW friends love), but that's far rarer than taking no health loss.
It´s also an option to run KC as IV conqueror, hybrid dps. Doing so you stack Wreckless attacker same as SWW in a comfort easy way.