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Official: M13 Scourge Warlock Changes

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  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 141Member Arc User
    edited March 2018
    i think should retewak SW litle more for example paragon soulbinder seems inferior all aspects compared with HB and damnation its too far to close any dps striker make that ignored i didnt see any more damnlock in party or SB. The pilar of power should be more bigger radius SB maybe need more damage from soulspark or one encounter can use make AoE damage
    Post edited by darkan#3756 on
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    edited March 2018
    @balanced#2849

    I hope you'll patch the +400% - + 500% ACT effectiveness/+300% - + 400%game effectiveness bug caused by Brood of Hadar in t9g/craddle of death god.

    If some of the feedback provided here (or in the form of "agree" on those posts) is based on a bug that can lead to close to
    ACT 600% effectiveness then you may be getting information that does not show where the class truly stands in terms of damage potential vs other damage dealers.

    Info regarding SW dps in T9G (and soon in Craddle of Death Good) shouldn't be based on runs were the warlock was benefitting from that dps bug, ACT logs should be posted so we can see what if the effectivenss was legit (<400% ACT effectiveness) or if the post was in fact based on a bug that should be fixed.

    I have spoken with SWs from pc who also want to see that bug fixed and general consensus is, even though mod 13 tweaks increase damage, assuming no double effectiveness bug, SW is still quite behind other strikers.

    Edit:

    To make it more clear, basically if part our community posts feedback (often with ACT proof) regarding the state of the class (like fury as a striker vs other damage dealers) based on legit dps and the other part post things that contradict that based on bugs/exploits then ask yourselves, what is @balanced#2849 supposed to do? In that regard, we as the warlock community simply keep taking the road to nowhere, we may as well not post anything.

    That dps bug needs to be fixed and in the meantime, warlocks that have access to mod 13 content and who post regarding dps should refrain from relying on that bug so they info they get to share here is reliable, based on dps that's at <400% ACT effectiveness.
    Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Posts: 146Member Arc User
    @etelgrin I have seen u around a few times, where u were using a feytouched. I have been using dread for a while. is feytouched any better? also is there any way i can get inv to SW discord?
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 276Member Arc User

    hello @balanced#2849


    Templock's Curse do not give its buff to Warlock. Its the same Curse as I understand. and this is a big fail. Don't you even consider us as a DPS??

    We actually tested it today and the templock curse DOES give buff to the other warlock (=x1.2).
    There is no issue with the templock buff capstone.

  • polaris1986polaris1986 Posts: 307Member Arc User
    We actually tested it today and the templock curse DOES give buff to the other warlock (=x1.2).


    logs please.
    with SW and with other DPS.
    DC/SW ~15
    new mount A-a-a-r-r-h-h-H !!


  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 276Member Arc User
    edited March 2018

    We actually tested it today and the templock curse DOES give buff to the other warlock (=x1.2).


    logs please.
    with SW and with other DPS.
    I did not save the ACT log but we were two warlocks (one temptation, one fury). The fury warlock had test weapon and hit a dummy in stronghold with HoB. The damage was like 1200 with his own curse, then 1440 (it was exactly x1.2) when the curse from the templock was added. Damage remained at 1440 when both curses were there, regardless of who cursed first the dummy.

    We did not try templock + another dps class.

  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 276Member Arc User
    edited March 2018
    etelgrin said:

    We actually tested it today and the templock curse DOES give buff to the other warlock (=x1.2).


    logs please.
    with SW and with other DPS.
    I did not save the ACT log but we were two warlocks (one temptation, one fury). The fury warlock had test weapon and hit a dummy in stronghold with HoB. The damage was like 1200 with his own curse, then 1440 (it was exactly x1.2) when the curse from the templock was added. Damage remained at 1440 when both curses were there, regardless of who cursed first the dummy.

    We did not try templock + another dps class.

    But I tried Templock with another DPS and it did increased the damage, basically if you are careful observer and/or run with pretty much same group most of time, or for the testing purposed with the same party - to be more specific. You don't really even need to run ACT, you can see the difference in DPS of allies. What Templock brings to the party, does make a difference now.

    Actually we tested the templock curse buff (on top on another sw tab curse) because Polaris reported it was not working. I prefer to double check by myself :)

    Sure that templock is now very viable :)

  • rifter1969rifter1969 Posts: 516Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Hey everyone.

    I have been "lurking" on this thread for awhile, as my main and favorite character is my SW.

    But, I just wanted to say, after playing mod13 now.. I finally feel like the character is moving in the right direction.

    So I just wanted to give a thanks to all the people that have been diligently working, testing, theory crafting all the fixes and add-ons to the warlock, and also to @balanced#2849 for working on our character class.

    It has been a long time, since mod6 I think, that the SW has been playable.

    @etelgrin , I saw your post about an SW chat channel :)
    That's actually a great piece of information, so thanks for that.
  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Posts: 146Member Arc User
    @etelgrin Thnx man, I already had that nine hells channel setup for a while now lol. Also, if u have the time, can I msg u in game if I have a question about SW? I dont really play as much i want to, maybe 3 days a week so Idk every little change thats happening.
  • polaris1986polaris1986 Posts: 307Member Arc User
    The damage was like 1200 with his own curse, then 1440 (it was exactly x1.2) when the curse from the templock was added. Damage remained at 1440


    Great I can make it with own curse. If templock had OWN (different) buff it should work for buffing Fury too.

    but two curses are simmular even by icons.
    so it can't get a significant buff for furylock,

    1,2% buff in your case may be a Dark revelry buff or something else.
    as we tested CW/GWF/HR have full buff from Templock's capstone.
    but SW fury have not.

    so buff SW for SW have only a little profit for DPS SW.

    2 DCs still actual but 2 SW is a loss of profit unlike to GWF+SWbuff or HR + SWbuff.
    DC/SW ~15
    new mount A-a-a-r-r-h-h-H !!


  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 276Member Arc User
    edited March 2018

    The damage was like 1200 with his own curse, then 1440 (it was exactly x1.2) when the curse from the templock was added. Damage remained at 1440


    Great I can make it with own curse. If templock had OWN (different) buff it should work for buffing Fury too.

    but two curses are simmular even by icons.
    so it can't get a significant buff for furylock,

    1,2% buff in your case may be a Dark revelry buff or something else.
    as we tested CW/GWF/HR have full buff from Templock's capstone.
    but SW fury have not.

    so buff SW for SW have only a little profit for DPS SW.

    2 DCs still actual but 2 SW is a loss of profit unlike to GWF+SWbuff or HR + SWbuff.
    You don't get it: x1.2 was only for the addition of the templock curse.
    There was no pillar or dark revelry involved (templock was not in combat mode), just the curse.
    The templock curse is WAI.

  • jakkal#5309 jakkal Posts: 5Member Arc User
    So templock buffs are working out ? I'm curious what a SW with Max buffage can do for a real dps in terms of damage increase by x %. Any PC master race scourges care to test on preview or whatever? A debuff artifact, dread enchant, NPNM off hand feature, PoP, templocks curse, lesser curse feature, Dark Revelry, and dreadtheft. Oh also a fancy shmancy legendary mount that debuffs. That's all I can think of to increase the party's damage. Not sure power of the nine hell's is necessary anymore. Thank you
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,274Member Arc User
    edited March 2018
    Temp beside an AC: multiplier x 1.2 x 1.18 x 1.05(or a debuff), debuffs 10%+25% (DT 1/3 of time)=
    DO-DC beside an AC: multiplier x 1.35 x 1.2 x 1.15 (FF), debuffs 12,5%
    Conqueror GF beside an AC: multiplier x 1.3 , debuffs 10%+8% + a lot more dps
    Only by poping HG the DO outperforms that templock, but..

    a Templock is a good alternative to double-DC, since you can cover a lot of "bad positioning" and lacking skill in your group by instant healing, but you need a good OP/DC for mitigation too to prevent onhits. Best results so far: OP-GF-DC-temp- any hdps (no big surprise)
    A good DO and AC will outshine the DC/temp composition, gladly there are a lot of DC´s in NWO, who can´t keep up their buffs constantly, same as debuff effectively.
    On top Temp deals a good chunk of dps in general, if played and build correctly.
    All in all everything is more balanced and templock is viable and asked for Cradle also a lot. Atm tons of "experienced warlocks" pop up like musrooms in NWO -PC, not seen them for > 6 mods.
    Furylock is also more viable, thx @balanced#2849
    I really wonder how many player favour GWF´s in NWO, 5 are a good pick, the rest is not aware how to press the 5 buttons
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • rifter1969rifter1969 Posts: 516Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Hey guys I was wondering something since math is not my strong point...

    But I getting my SW's temp path built up, and it has been encouraging so far.
    My question is this, if I put the Tiamat artifact set on my templock build, would that boost the outgoing healing as the tooltip states (5% iirc) for the 3 piece bonus?

    Thanks in advance all :)
  • syndicate990syndicate990 Posts: 7Member Arc User
    edited March 2018
    I would highly recommend not using the Tiamat set for a templock. Heals are a derivitive of damage so orcus set will still be best if healing is what you’re looking for. If you really need survivability you could try Valhalla but even then I still recommend orcus over anything
  • duckntrollduckntroll Posts: 95Member Arc User

    I would highly recommend not using the Tiamat set for a templock. Heals are a derivitive of damage so orcus set will still be best if healing is what you’re looking for. If you really need survivability you could try Valhalla but even then I still recommend orcus over anything

    Good advice! Templock is already overhealing but underprotecting...

    If your wallet/time is tight to be able to afford/farm the Orcus wand, or if you opt for utility over performance, you can go to the Lathander Set with it's resurrection capabilities.



    Back on topik, still no post from Balanced&Cie since the release...
    I guess it's a bad omen for any futher balancing and bug fixes.
  • rifter1969rifter1969 Posts: 516Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Thanks for the advice, and sorry for derailing.
    :)
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 39Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I would highly recommend not using the Tiamat set for a templock. Heals are a derivitive of damage so orcus set will still be best if healing is what you’re looking for. If you really need survivability you could try Valhalla but even then I still recommend orcus over anything

    Good advice! Templock is already overhealing but underprotecting...

    If your wallet/time is tight to be able to afford/farm the Orcus wand, or if you opt for utility over performance, you can go to the Lathander Set with it's resurrection capabilities.



    Back on topik, still no post from Balanced&Cie since the release...
    I guess it's a bad omen for any futher balancing and bug fixes.
    I could imagine that @balanced#2849 has to look at all the suggestions that were made and think about how he could incorporate all that stuff in his and the other developers vision of how to go further with the warlock. Further i still think that it is not only necessary to work at the warlock but to bring all classes to the main role they should belong to.

    From my very personal point of view i surely envy the damage a GWG can hand out, but hey, even if i don't like that it is still a pure DPS class generally. But a tank that could deal more damage than the main DPS in a party is an abomination IMHO.

    Another point they could think of is the whole issue of self healing by lifesteal - dead or full health, there is not so much in between. Perhaps they should cut lifesteal severity down to 50% or even less base value giving the warlock some more because it may feel more natural to empower such a feature for a class like the warlock or at least let the SW power it up by a feat. I would even go as far as to say that liefesteal is a thing that sound appropriate for warlocks only - but i must admit i never played the pen and paper D&D and don't know how such a view fits into the whole lore. Such a step would make healer dc and templocks more interesting for parties and would bring DPS players to invest more boons for defensive stats. Aggro management for tanks would be more important too. Even if i open a can of worms here i am sure that such a step could make the game more challenging and satisfying and could also strengthen the social aspect of the game if people need to party for the harder content outside of dungeons and skirmishes too.
  • damianwayne00damianwayne00 Posts: 13Member Arc User
    I’d like to echo that, specifically the fact that non-dps classes are out dps-ing scourge warlocks, which is absolutely ridiculous. In your own tool tip description when choosing classes, you say “If you want to deal damage, this is the class for you.” SW is advertised as a pure dps class. I will now list the other classes that regularly outperform SW in dps:

    -GWF
    -HR
    -TR
    -CW
    -GF
    -OP
    -AC

    Please let me know if I’ve missed any! Now this is generally assuming similar item level, player skill, etc. However even other dps classes like GWF and HR will outperform a SW at considerably lower il. My SW is 16.5k il, and I’m on console. I love this character and don’t waste a lot of time with alts. I know what I’m doing and how to optimize damage. And yet 13-14k il characters will still out-dps me in end game dungeons, hands-down. Which is silly. But to have a GF, a support character, of the same item level be able to do 10x the damage I can do in an epic dungeon, is just a slap in the face to the class. I like the changes I’ve seen in mod 13, but all you’ve really done is turn templock from a rarely-used support option to a slightly more viable fringe support option. And in the same mod, you decided an ENHANCEMENT to GWFs was necessary. It’s this kind of stuff that leads to player frustration.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    @damianwayne00

    SW > OP and AC o.O

    Now other strikers will beat SW, yes, but to state AC does is incorrect o.O
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 4,253Member Arc User
    AC isn't even a class.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    > @pitshade said:
    > AC isn't even a class.

    No big deal, even for a non native speaker like me it's crystal clear he means AC DC.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 4,253Member Arc User
    Well if he is posting hyperbole, at least get the class right.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    > @pitshade said:
    > Well if he is posting hyperbole, at least get the class right.

    Fair enough.
  • damianwayne00damianwayne00 Posts: 13Member Arc User
    Perfect yes lets argue semantics and typos instead of getting the devs to address badly needed class balances
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    > @damianwayne00 said:
    > Perfect yes lets argue semantics and typos instead of getting the devs to address badly needed class balances

    I don't think devs will do anything after reading hyperboles. Even with legit dps, SW > AC/DO DC.
This discussion has been closed.