As Becky said, nothing specific was said about bonding stones. All of us in the stream inferred that bonding would "some day" be adjusted. Just like he said that the Loyal companion gear is effectively iL 840 and if/when we get items close to that level, they may bring the Loyal gear back.
-drop sh boons to half their value. It enough to keep the farming worth it.
Yup, 4000 bonus from a boon is good enough, not to mention that you get that bonus on several stats. On top of that high lvl guilds shouldn't be a must. SH bonus should give most the value at lower lvls, for example, atm depending on Stable rank Defense boon gives: 800/1600/2400/3200/4000/4800/5600/6400/7200/8000. With the nerf by half it would be: 400/800/1200/1600/2000/2400/2800/3200/3600/4000. My suggestion: 2200/2400/2600/2800/3000/3200/3400/3600/3800/4000.
Give guildless players a solo version of said boons. ... Sh and solo boons cannot be activated together. but i might farm solo a boon that my guild did not get, and use it in place of the sh boon. Guilds are an option.
I like this idea.
Bondings shouldn't be the only thing you want to put on your companions, so I agree with the nerf.
A side note: while this game is f2p it's way too much p2w. When you hit lvl 70 and gear up with lvl 70 gear (elemental alliance stuff, ostorian rings, etc.) you do at least 100 times less dmg than top players (for comparison, in ddo nobody did more than 5 times more dmg at similar lvl, except some cases with bugs/exploits). But a good news is that it's easy to farm RD weapons (Devs did a good work on that one, my alts can actually play now).
-leave bondings alone, buff augments to give an alternative
-drop sh boons to half their value. It enough to keep the farming worth it.
Give guildless players a solo version of said boons, scaling 1-2-3-4k each level, achievable through farming of solo content. Might give a reason to go Back To old campaigns after You ve completed Them. Sh and solo boons cannot be activated together. but i might farm solo a boon that my guild did not get, and use it in place of the sh boon. Guilds are an option. Players should not be forced to join a guild or get far behind The guilded players (i'm in a guild with max boons, just to clarify).
-lifesteal should heal some, increase survivability. Not heal back your whole hp and make you immortal. Would make hp potions needed again. Yes guys you have hp potions for solo pve, 35k healing The new ones. Dodge, some little lifesteal and potions are enough for any content. Il not, they Can drop mob damage a bit.
I absolutely agree, people get used to be in godmode and tend to rely too much on free stats, instead of playing correctly (i.e. face the danger and its consequences). I am now in a max boons guild and to be honest, I could do the same contents before joining. It is just that it is a tad bit quicker now and I don't care of the damage I receive (because I have more defense/hp/ls now). I can even say that my gameplay worsened (but I agree it is fun to facetank). It should not be normal anyway to melt everything in a new dungeon (that is supposed to be the most difficult) in less than 15 minutes: it means people (some classes and synergy in particular) are too overpowered and the contents too easy.
And I want to add that a slight nerf to the bondings could be interesting because people would have to choose between stats instead of having all of them (e.g 100% crit + good addition of power + >60%arm pen). It would reduce the godmode style.
In a typical MMO, when power creep gets to high, they raise the level cap, make the monsters harder, and are done with it. That does not translate to an action MMO very well, because it eventually boils down to, move at the right time or you die...and there is only so far you can go with that. Move or you die, with the challenge being in how long you have to keep moving or you die before the boss dies.
The challenging content that they have made recently is on the right track. After initial complaints, FBI seems to be a fairly decent instance (lack of loot withstanding). MSP....meh, the second boss sucks and needs adjustments, but I admit it is nice to actually have to honor mechanics and not faceroll it all. MSVA was fun for a skirmish.
That said, they can not help themselves with power creep, because they seem to be at the limits of what can be done difficulty wise. They feel they have to keep giving people carrots, but can't seem to give content to match.
I don't know where they will go from here. I do NOT want to go back to the days of the blue balls flying around everyones heads again...though my legendary stone would have use again. But bondings are a requirement, and if you want to see why...try and play without them. They make a HUGE difference. Something that important usually gets hit.
In a typical MMO, when power creep gets to high, they raise the level cap, make the monsters harder, and are done with it. That does not translate to an action MMO very well, because it eventually boils down to, move at the right time or you die...and there is only so far you can go with that. Move or you die, with the challenge being in how long you have to keep moving or you die before the boss dies.
The challenging content that they have made recently is on the right track. After initial complaints, FBI seems to be a fairly decent instance (lack of loot withstanding). MSP....meh, the second boss sucks and needs adjustments, but I admit it is nice to actually have to honor mechanics and not faceroll it all. MSVA was fun for a skirmish.
That said, they can not help themselves with power creep, because they seem to be at the limits of what can be done difficulty wise. They feel they have to keep giving people carrots, but can't seem to give content to match.
I don't know where they will go from here. I do NOT want to go back to the days of the blue balls flying around everyones heads again...though my legendary stone would have use again. But bondings are a requirement, and if you want to see why...try and play without them. They make a HUGE difference. Something that important usually gets hit.
The challenging content (e.g FBI, MSP) is not challenging when some people complain you slow them because you achieve it in 25-30 minutes (whereas they could achieve it in 15-25 min). Come on, whether it takes 15 or 30 minutes, it is still not a challenging content. As for bondings, I know they are very important (I have R12s for a reason), but I wouldn't mind if they were downgraded to the % given by R11s for instance. It would make the "challenging" content more challenging.
However, I agree the mechanics of the latest content are appealing. But current powercreep IS the issue. Hitting 5+ million-damage with one encounter/daily should not exist.
In a typical MMO, when power creep gets to high, they raise the level cap, make the monsters harder, and are done with it. That does not translate to an action MMO very well, because it eventually boils down to, move at the right time or you die...and there is only so far you can go with that. Move or you die, with the challenge being in how long you have to keep moving or you die before the boss dies.
The challenging content that they have made recently is on the right track. After initial complaints, FBI seems to be a fairly decent instance (lack of loot withstanding). MSP....meh, the second boss sucks and needs adjustments, but I admit it is nice to actually have to honor mechanics and not faceroll it all. MSVA was fun for a skirmish.
That said, they can not help themselves with power creep, because they seem to be at the limits of what can be done difficulty wise. They feel they have to keep giving people carrots, but can't seem to give content to match.
I don't know where they will go from here. I do NOT want to go back to the days of the blue balls flying around everyones heads again...though my legendary stone would have use again. But bondings are a requirement, and if you want to see why...try and play without them. They make a HUGE difference. Something that important usually gets hit.
Powercreep IS the issue in general. Being able to hit for >5million-damage with a single encounter/daily should never happen... It make the challenging content not so challenging at the end. And people tend to think of it as a norm (and it is detrimental to classes not able to achieve this kind of damage because of wrong synergy of their own powers/feats/dots with the current meta). Personally, I wouldn't mind if the % given by my R12 bondings was downgraded to the % given by R11s.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Lifesteal should not even exist except for specialist vampire type classes. For those complaining about how it would make some the content too hard, its supposed to be hard. You still have things like potions and stamina and most classes have crowd control as well. If lifesteal is to stay then make it have an inverse relationship to damage, the more damage you do the less healing you get, and vice versa. Glass cannons should not be made into face tanks, a player needs to be forced to choose how much dps over how much survivability the want to play with.
As for the power creep issue and game difficulty, instead of just giving more hitpoints and damage, they should find more innovative ways to make harder enemies. Create magical/physical/crowd control immunity creatures, create creatures that always reflect damage like in Illusionists Gambit (forcing the super high dps to back off), create creatures that nullifies and reflects the healing of the party back as damage (forcing healer not just to mindlessly spam healing all the time). If you have a combination of such creatures then no amount of power creep will be able brute force itself out of it, it will require team coordination and good understanding of the enemy. I remember that before mod 6 how a CW could solo the Dracolich boss (because of lifesteal), the Illithid dungeon however was not a much frequented dungeon because it was still difficult to complete, it required more than just raw dps, all the stun locking often forced players to play different
Nerf X or adjust Y is not a solution, but a band aid. Imo the problems are power creep and gear gap. Every new module gives new gear, new boons, new pets etc.
A new player can get, with reasonable effort, 10k IL in a few month. A BIS player has 16k+ IL. Pure math would make you believe, that the BIS player with 6k more IL would deal 60% more dmg. That is plain wrong. I had PUG runs with my 14+k IL GF, when I did twice the dmg, then the other 4 players (somewhere 10kish IL) combined. I know, that I am not a great GF player and I know, that maybe some of the other players are even worse, than I am, but the difference between a well build BIS char and your average joe are gear, comps, enchants etc for 50 kk+ AD and an effectiveness, that is much higher, then the numbers from IL.
Furthermore some buffs are stat based, so a group of BIS players can reach numbers a group of new players cant dream about.
The solution would be T1, T2 and T3 dungeons with different min IL and different rewards, not nerfing bis players, so they can feel the pain of their comrades running the new content.
As others said,the current content is built ,intentionally or not,around bondings.
I play a GF,the adds hit so hard now,any hit with shield now in t3 dungs is KO,if you do not have 95% DR even with shield up,you are in trouble. I just mentiojed one class,but the point is that bondings are needed.
The counter point of many-buff augments-is moot.If you buff augments,that cost as low as 25k currently why to sppend 6-10m AD in 3 Bondings R12?
power creep is a problem.Relic weapons should have the current bonus but the weapon damage should be on par with |Twisted.Mod11 weapons should be on par with elemental weapons.The weapon damage increase of relics,was unnecessary.
One problem is the new weapons ,second problem are the current stat curve.Diminishing returns needed.
Third problem is -unfortunatelly- the massive buffs the DC class can provide.But the buffs in general. It is kinda unfair,cause the DC community never asked for these buffs,yet the class now is the Alpha and the Omega of any succesfull run. Before i continue with the DCs i feel,that some buffing powers of Striker classes need a tone down.Namely Longstrider's and also devs need to look very good at what a well specced Mof CW can offer.
For the DCs : at the currewnt state ,you can substitude almost any class with another,in order to have a succesfull run. Tank: pick Gf or Op Strikers: pick HR or GWf or SW or CW or TR Buffs: Dc is superior to heal Op and to any class.
I am not calling for a nerf but maybe an adjustment to how easily said powers and rotation can be executed.
I'd say just make the new content scaled to the players, don't scale the players back.
If you start making FBI take an hour, MSPC take an hour and a half, and lostmauth take 35 minutes like it did back when we were all lower ilvl, all sense of progression will be lost and players will just quit, especially if the rewards aren't fixed.
I smell a mass exodus like Mod 6. I plead that they rethink this major mistake.
Agreed. It took awhile for guilds to recover from the numerous departures over various things that pissed people off. All 3 of the "adjustments" mentioned here would, IMO, start off waves of people leaving again.
To say that SH boons should be taken down to 4k because it is enough seems to be ignoring the fact that people put in work to get what was advertised. Imagine buying a Ferrari and a year later the dealer decides "you dont need that much power to get around town. let's just swap in this garbage engine. by the way, we're also going to be making some major urban renovations so that navigating around town takes you longer. have a nice day!"
Same thing with bondings. I don't get why people seem intent to compare overpowered bonding with augments. Augments cost a fraction of what a bonding does. Bondings should be better. Are they too much better? That depends on who you're asking. But to compare bonding to augments is like comparing relic weapons to ensorcelled weapons. It was a progression the game made so if you don't like the overpowered bonding then don't use it. Regardless, this is again going to be a point of contention with people if they nerf them.
And lifesteal? I don't think this one blows things up like a SH boon or bonding nerf would. I mean, I already basically retired my main DPS toon after nerfs and an inability to queue up solo during the hours I prefer to play. So what's another stat being killed off matter.
Just make enemies scale to to the players stats. PvE group content scales based on the groups stats. Solo content scales based on the players stats. This way it's still challenging for players that have bis everything and all guild boons.
Make other stats relevant. Too many players just go for all power or all crit. Characters should be balanced.
I like the idea of different variants of bondings. This would help balance player stats.
Founder of Knights of Ra guild in Neverwinter PS4. Founder of The Arashikage Clan in Defiance, formally of PlayStation Home.
I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that bonding stones (and their stackability) aren't too powerful. The simple fact that they are considered the ONLY option for your companion should be proof enough.
That said: I agree that because of the effort people have put into them, a complete "nerf" would probably be the wrong way to go. A look at what makes them so powerful (and an associated tweak) is necessary though.
What makes them overpowered (IMO) is:
The stat on the stone is unaffected by the actual level of the player's unbonded stat (power only now, after recent changes). Three r12 bondings will give the player an additional 7k power - that's not even including the companion's gear.
The bonding continues whether the Companion is alive or not.
The %chance to proc the bonding is relatively high (considering the buff's power).
In conjunction with #2, a dead companion revives at full health - meaning it's less likely to die before proccing the bond again.
So to "fix" the "must have" without nerfing them into oblivion, I would suggest:
Tweak Power's diminishing return (if it has one at all) - this will effect everyone equally. Bondings will still push you to higher levels than without, but those levels would become less necessary.
Lengthen Companion near-death state so that the bonding expires shortly before a companion's rez. Again, this would effect everyone the same - a Companionless adventurer is less powerful whether or not they have bonding stones. A player could still revive a companion early maintaining the buff, or they could choose to live with the short duration buff loss.
No real way to fix this without a direct nerf to the stone. The closest I could think of is to make them only proc off of a certain tier of Companion power (i.e. a white companion could never proc a r12 bonding because they don't know the skill yet).
Companions should not revive at full health. A companion's death should be just as detrimental to the player as a party member's death is to the party.
All of the above are "indirect" nerfs to bondings but would affect every player equally (#3 excluded). Those with bondings might feel the pain a bit more, but if done properly they shouldn't be game-breakers.
It won't surprise me if the nerf is coming. They couldn't nerf it in the early days because lots of people spent lots of money to get their 3xR12 bonding and legendary companions. Pissing off the whales is no way to stay in business.
But now, those people already had their fun. I myself finally got one toon to 3xR12 with legendary companion a few months ago. This coming double-RP, my other three toons will have 3xR12 bonding with epic companions. And I did not spend a single dollar for my bonding. It was all grinding. I suspect most people getting their setup now is getting them more by grinding than by paying. So it won't hurt as much to nerf now, or soon. Or else it could be hard for them to introduce their next money making OP item whatever that will be.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
-leave bondings alone, buff augments to give an alternative
-drop sh boons to half their value. It enough to keep the farming worth it.
Give guildless players a solo version of said boons, scaling 1-2-3-4k each level, achievable through farming of solo content. Might give a reason to go Back To old campaigns after You ve completed Them. Sh and solo boons cannot be activated together. but i might farm solo a boon that my guild did not get, and use it in place of the sh boon. Guilds are an option. Players should not be forced to join a guild or get far behind The guilded players (i'm in a guild with max boons, just to clarify).
-lifesteal should heal some, increase survivability. Not heal back your whole hp and make you immortal. Would make hp potions needed again. Yes guys you have hp potions for solo pve, 35k healing The new ones. Dodge, some little lifesteal and potions are enough for any content. Il not, they Can drop mob damage a bit.
You are still living to the past before module 7. IF you want a guildless player to get those boons Then here is my suggestion: That guildless player to have similar requirements as the strongholds to be in line no more no less ( let it be on your own way with campaigns whatever you like)>
AND then earn a title : if I was in guild i would get that boon in 2 months not in 2 years.
Strongholds is one of the best addition in the game .
Maybe instead of reducing the stats on guild boons, what about the possibility of splitting them? I mean, instead of 8k on one offence and defence boon, 4k on two offence and two defence stats?
That would limit the capability of a single boon but we'd not lose from our total stat count - it could also lead to some interesting build adjustments.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
For PVE, yes D&D/Neverwinter is a PVE game, raising the level cap would be way wiser, the reasoning behind this is that the sum of SH boons + bonding may be "too much" compared to the actual power (stat points) of players, but with a level increase, that sum would be way lower and "acceptable" compared to the new power (stat points) of players.
For PVP SH boons can make too much difference right now so a simpler way would be toning down SH boons when you are flagged for PVP.
Putting another 10 levels into level cap would reset the balance game and let the devs start balancing from scratch.
But it probably also would be way too much work required to establish a minimum of zones and gear at level 80.
They could increase the cap by 2 levels perhaps. That way old zones would still be usable.
But specifically bondings would still be a problem, since bondings value would just increase with better gear. They would have to be capped, or made diminishing returns.
I'm really against a raising levels. I don't want to start over with the gear. I don't think anyone really does. if pvp is a problem just turn off the sh boons for pvp. easypeasy. they have their own boon tree. we can't use pvp boons in pve why should the opposite be true. if you are in a really strong end game group then running content is easy. but most are not in a really strong group and need the boons they have as well as the bondings they have. pandering to the bis is a mistake in a game where most are NOT bis. if people think it's too easy they have the power to take off some of their power and play that way.
I suspect they have something new they are planning on introducing. why would they nerf now? in the past nerfs along these lines are to make the new thing look better.
once something very expensive is introduced though it should never ever ever be nerfed. made obsolete by the new and shiney yes but not nerfed. goes for stronghold boons ESPECIALLY and bondings. bondings are individual millions but the strong hold boons are multimillions of blood sweat and tears. and the main reason we did it was for those danged boons. if they were 4k who'd have bothered? leave it alone.. just leave it.
and to the people saying bondings must be op because nothing else is acceptable. I disagree. it means nothing else has been presented to the player that works to clear current content. you do need bondings to be able comfortably clear higher level content. no one wants to spend hours in a dungeon. yeah you can build a elite party and probably still do ok but most people are not part of elite parties. and even those elite parties would struggle with out them.
I'm perfectly fine with them buffing up augments or making other runestones have better benefits. or augments that also proc bondings or something along those lines. introducing new stuff or buffing older stuff is a ok. but nerfing something like this once it's been in the game for this long is really not ok. it's like the key thing. that was not cool. they made nice for a little while and then reverted.
and then there was coal gate.. come on I know everyone remembers that. remember the people in pe giving away their stuff? remember how quiet things got? how quiet they stayed...
either of the two things mentioned would eclipse that in reality.
I have to say, I like how you people focus on the tree and miss the forest. You give suggestions that only match your specific needs in the name of some "equality" that somehow should be given and not earned. Equality is and should be in opportunity and not in possession. Equal opportunity and equal chance for all to build what we need. We must all have equal ways to ordain something IF we are to work, farm, grind, or even get lucky, EQUALLY. Spend same time, equally. If we all have equal chances then there is nothing to complain about.
What you guys propose, to give you either "special" boons because you cant or wont be in a guild and you don't want to go the extra mile to team up and work and obtain it, or even ask to reduce the boons for the people that put the effort to get it, is just...
We worked, organized, had fun, had bad moments, got tired, planned events and got fed up but at the end we managed to build what we have but yeah just because you started now, or you are "anti-guild" or don't want to do the grind or whatever other reason, you should have it for free. Because a level 20 guild was created on its own or it was easy and its not the "result" of a year or more of hard work of a huge group of people. The gems, surplus, gold, ad, campaign currencies (to name a few) grow on trees and we didn't have to do anything. Shame on us Rank 20 (or any rank) guilds for farming to have what we have.
Well if we are to think like that, I don't want to do T9G so please put the best gears in MC or even in lvling dungeons. I don't have the time to go or build groups and do hard content and while we are at it make chests drop rank 12s too.... ain't nobody got time for this.
To the subject
On a maxed out char, bondings at best will give you 20k-25k power. Now assuming you have 40-50k (including guild boon) on your own char, you can get to a good 70-80k total. So bonding stones will give you 40% at best, more power. Is this to much or not... up to debate.
On the other hand, a dc, a pally and a sw can give you what? The combined total of 280k power, at least that's what I think I saw at peek on me. So 25k+8k = 33k power from one side and 200k from the other... which is bigger?
Try this small test if you may: Do a dungeon (even etos will do) without any kind of power sharing but with bonding 12s and guild boons enabled and keep a record of the time and min / max hits (and deaths :P) Then do the same run with 1 or 2 or even 3 of the above classes and record again. As a 3rd test remove bonding stones (and guild boons) and do the run again with above classes.
(not talking about the buffs, just the power share)
What do you think your results will be. I know mine... On my cw that I use the dancing shield and therefore my bonding stones proc defence my max power is 40k (with guild boon) and with 2 dc I'm getting to 140k. With pally in the mix 165k-170k. Pause for a second and think, from 40k SELF BUFFED to 170k... but yeah, bondings are the problem of the fast kills at the boss.
Not the power share Not the multiplicative buffs Not the interactions with self buffs and skills/items
Don't get me wrong I never did and never will call or ask for "nerfs" etc.Life is what it is and we get to play with whatever cards are dealt to us but when we are to examine a problem, we need to look at it from the right prospective. Bondings were created at an era that there were no powesharing from DC or paly or sw and same goes for loyal gears etc. With just them we are doing decent. The real problem for fast kills lays elsewhere.
Edit: I forgot to add the MAJOR problem/bug/glitch/exploit/undocumented feature call it whatever, that power sharing also affects companions which also gives as twice the buff through bondings...
Post edited by oria1 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I don't mind a bonding nerf, return of augments, or no summoned companions at all for all I care. But, as long as:
1. I can trade back, or somehow get back the AD value of the bondings (or most of it). Yes, balance is expected in MMOs, buffs, nerfs, cost lost, but from expiriance, nothing here done in proportions or smoothly, everything is extremely heavy handed. And if someone thinks that loosing millions of AD over night, that took months to get, is a good idea, then sorry, and feel free to loose your AD and compensate my wallet.
2. Adaptation of dailies to the new realities. New zones are balanced for bondings in mind, without, it will take considerably more time to do dallies and progress in the campaigns. This should be adapted to maintain the as is "god save us from more grindy dailies" and not let it get to "kill me now, I'm not doing dailies".
3. Dungeons, raids, etc.. Here and unlike the dailies, I personally don't want difficulty adjustment, IMO, while some dungeons can / should be short others should be long and difficult. I don't see an issue of doing a dungeon for few hours. But (Yes a but again), the rewards should reflect this. And not in some peridots or r5. Nerf power creep, no problem, nerf bondings, no problem, nerf classes, ok, make the runs difficult and long with some wipes and pug tears, great, but the reward should reflect this.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
I have to say, I like how you people focus on the tree and miss the forest. You give suggestions that only match your specific needs in the name of some "equality" that somehow should be given and not earned. Equality is and should be in opportunity and not in possession. Equal opportunity and equal chance for all to build what we need. We must all have equal ways to ordain something IF we are to work, farm, grind, or even get lucky, EQUALLY. Spend same time, equally. If we all have equal chances then there is nothing to complain about.
What you guys propose, to give you either "special" boons because you cant or wont be in a guild and you don't want to go the extra mile to team up and work and obtain it, or even ask to reduce the boons for the people that put the effort to get it, is just...
We worked, organized, had fun, had bad moments, got tired, planned events and got fed up but at the end we managed to build what we have but yeah just because you started now, or you are "anti-guild" or don't want to do the grind or whatever other reason, you should have it for free. Because a level 20 guild was created on its own or it was easy and its not the "result" of a year or more of hard work of a huge group of people. The gems, surplus, gold, ad, campaign currencies (to name a few) grow on trees and we didn't have to do anything. Shame on us Rank 20 (or any rank) guilds for farming to have what we have.
Well if we are to think like that, I don't want to do T9G so please put the best gears in MC or even in lvling dungeons. I don't have the time to go or build groups and do hard content and while we are at it make chests drop rank 12s too.... ain't nobody got time for this.
To the subject
On a maxed out char Bondings at best will give you 20k-25k power. Now assuming you have 40-50k (including guild boon) on your own char, you can get to a good 70-80k total. So bonding stones will give you 40% at best, more power. Is this to much or not... up to debate.
On the other hand, a dc, a pally and a sw can give you what? The combined total of 280k power, at least that's what I think I saw at peek on me. So 25k+8k = 33k power from one side and 200k from the other... which is bigger?
Try this small test if you may: Do a dungeon (even etos will do) without any kind of power sharing but with bonding 12s and guild boons enabled and keep a record of the time and min / max hits (and deaths :P) Then do the same run with 1 or 2 or even 3 of the above classes and record again. As a 3rd test remove bonding stones (and guild boons) and do the run again with above classes.
(not talking about the buffs, just the power share)
What do you think your results will be. I know mine... On my cw that I use the dancing shield and therefore my bonding stones proc defence my max power is 40k (with guild boon) and with 2 dc I'm getting to 140k. With pally in the mix 165k-170k. Pause for a second and think, from 40k SELF BUFFED to 170k... but yeah, bondings are the problem of the fast kills at the boss.
Not the power share Not the multiplicative buffs Not the interactions with self buffs and skills/items
Don't get me wrong I never did and never will call or ask for "nerfs" etc.Life is what it is and we get to play with whatever cards are dealt to us but when we are to examine a problem, we need to look at it from the right prospective. Bondings were created at an era that there were no powesharing from DC or paly or sw and same goes for loyal gears etc. With just them we are doing decent. The real problem for fast kills lays elsewhere.
Edit: I forgot to add the MAJOR problem/bug/glitch/exploit/undocumented feature call it whatever, that power sharing also affects companions which also gives as twice the buff through bondings...
I agree with the above.
A bonding should transfer only base companion stats to the player and not the " buffed companion stats" A tenser disk for example calculate only the base power of the player to boost it 10% no matter if the player got buff on his power.
p.s. I forgot also to mention the artificiers persuation give the 10% boosts to recovery ap gain movement based on buffed power and not base like the tenser disk and the protectors caramaderie(is a little of topic but it doesnt sounds normal).
Honestly micky I don't care either, as I said I learned in life (and in game) to play with whatever cards I get dealt with. If a change comes it will come for all, I wont be any better or worse but I'll be the same relative to others (I hope). And if its unreasonable and stupid change, there are other ways and other games.
Honestly what I fear is the usual Cryptic tactic. We remove one item or change it because reasons (nerf) to give to you back through another way but, you have to pay for it to be back to where you were. (Lostmouth procs vs enchant procs anyone?, Mod 6 change to injuries and Vip giving you immunity to said injuries? to name a few)
The reasoning of some players though... is beyond me.
Perhaps making Augments a stack in the way that Legendary Companions now do would be a way to level that field. While it does not decrease the power creep it would allow someone to use multiple Augments in active slots, with one summoned, to receive a bonus closer to 3xr12. So, a summoned Augment gives the same 100%, a second Augment in and active slots give another 80%, 3rd gives 40%, 4th gives 20%, 5th gives 10%, for a total of 250%, if the summoned has 3xdef slots to use Eldritch, then the total is 286%. The individual player wold have to option to use less augments to get other active bonuses.
Also - on weapon and armor enchantments - why a 1% chance for upgrading on lessers and regulars? they should be doable with pres wards - that would help newer players immensely.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Comments
On top of that high lvl guilds shouldn't be a must. SH bonus should give most the value at lower lvls, for example, atm depending on Stable rank Defense boon gives: 800/1600/2400/3200/4000/4800/5600/6400/7200/8000.
With the nerf by half it would be: 400/800/1200/1600/2000/2400/2800/3200/3600/4000.
My suggestion: 2200/2400/2600/2800/3000/3200/3400/3600/3800/4000. I like this idea.
Bondings shouldn't be the only thing you want to put on your companions, so I agree with the nerf.
A side note: while this game is f2p it's way too much p2w.
When you hit lvl 70 and gear up with lvl 70 gear (elemental alliance stuff, ostorian rings, etc.) you do at least 100 times less dmg than top players (for comparison, in ddo nobody did more than 5 times more dmg at similar lvl, except some cases with bugs/exploits).
But a good news is that it's easy to farm RD weapons (Devs did a good work on that one, my alts can actually play now).
I am now in a max boons guild and to be honest, I could do the same contents before joining. It is just that it is a tad bit quicker now and I don't care of the damage I receive (because I have more defense/hp/ls now). I can even say that my gameplay worsened (but I agree it is fun to facetank).
It should not be normal anyway to melt everything in a new dungeon (that is supposed to be the most difficult) in less than 15 minutes: it means people (some classes and synergy in particular) are too overpowered and the contents too easy.
And I want to add that a slight nerf to the bondings could be interesting because people would have to choose between stats instead of having all of them (e.g 100% crit + good addition of power + >60%arm pen). It would reduce the godmode style.
The challenging content that they have made recently is on the right track. After initial complaints, FBI seems to be a fairly decent instance (lack of loot withstanding). MSP....meh, the second boss sucks and needs adjustments, but I admit it is nice to actually have to honor mechanics and not faceroll it all. MSVA was fun for a skirmish.
That said, they can not help themselves with power creep, because they seem to be at the limits of what can be done difficulty wise. They feel they have to keep giving people carrots, but can't seem to give content to match.
I don't know where they will go from here. I do NOT want to go back to the days of the blue balls flying around everyones heads again...though my legendary stone would have use again. But bondings are a requirement, and if you want to see why...try and play without them. They make a HUGE difference. Something that important usually gets hit.
As for bondings, I know they are very important (I have R12s for a reason), but I wouldn't mind if they were downgraded to the % given by R11s for instance. It would make the "challenging" content more challenging.
However, I agree the mechanics of the latest content are appealing.
But current powercreep IS the issue. Hitting 5+ million-damage with one encounter/daily should not exist.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if the % given by my R12 bondings was downgraded to the % given by R11s.
As for the power creep issue and game difficulty, instead of just giving more hitpoints and damage, they should find more innovative ways to make harder enemies. Create magical/physical/crowd control immunity creatures, create creatures that always reflect damage like in Illusionists Gambit (forcing the super high dps to back off), create creatures that nullifies and reflects the healing of the party back as damage (forcing healer not just to mindlessly spam healing all the time). If you have a combination of such creatures then no amount of power creep will be able brute force itself out of it, it will require team coordination and good understanding of the enemy. I remember that before mod 6 how a CW could solo the Dracolich boss (because of lifesteal), the Illithid dungeon however was not a much frequented dungeon because it was still difficult to complete, it required more than just raw dps, all the stun locking often forced players to play different
A new player can get, with reasonable effort, 10k IL in a few month. A BIS player has 16k+ IL. Pure math would make you believe, that the BIS player with 6k more IL would deal 60% more dmg. That is plain wrong. I had PUG runs with my 14+k IL GF, when I did twice the dmg, then the other 4 players (somewhere 10kish IL) combined. I know, that I am not a great GF player and I know, that maybe some of the other players are even worse, than I am, but the difference between a well build BIS char and your average joe are gear, comps, enchants etc for 50 kk+ AD and an effectiveness, that is much higher, then the numbers from IL.
Furthermore some buffs are stat based, so a group of BIS players can reach numbers a group of new players cant dream about.
The solution would be T1, T2 and T3 dungeons with different min IL and different rewards, not nerfing bis players, so they can feel the pain of their comrades running the new content.
I play a GF,the adds hit so hard now,any hit with shield now in t3 dungs is KO,if you do not have 95% DR even with shield up,you are in trouble.
I just mentiojed one class,but the point is that bondings are needed.
The counter point of many-buff augments-is moot.If you buff augments,that cost as low as 25k currently why to sppend 6-10m AD in 3 Bondings R12?
power creep is a problem.Relic weapons should have the current bonus but the weapon damage should be on par with |Twisted.Mod11 weapons should be on par with elemental weapons.The weapon damage increase of relics,was unnecessary.
One problem is the new weapons ,second problem are the current stat curve.Diminishing returns needed.
Third problem is -unfortunatelly- the massive buffs the DC class can provide.But the buffs in general.
It is kinda unfair,cause the DC community never asked for these buffs,yet the class now is the Alpha and the Omega of any succesfull run.
Before i continue with the DCs i feel,that some buffing powers of Striker classes need a tone down.Namely Longstrider's and also devs need to look very good at what a well specced Mof CW can offer.
For the DCs : at the currewnt state ,you can substitude almost any class with another,in order to have a succesfull run.
Tank: pick Gf or Op
Strikers: pick HR or GWf or SW or CW or TR
Buffs: Dc is superior to heal Op and to any class.
I am not calling for a nerf but maybe an adjustment to how easily said powers and rotation can be executed.
If you start making FBI take an hour, MSPC take an hour and a half, and lostmauth take 35 minutes like it did back when we were all lower ilvl, all sense of progression will be lost and players will just quit, especially if the rewards aren't fixed.
To say that SH boons should be taken down to 4k because it is enough seems to be ignoring the fact that people put in work to get what was advertised. Imagine buying a Ferrari and a year later the dealer decides "you dont need that much power to get around town. let's just swap in this garbage engine. by the way, we're also going to be making some major urban renovations so that navigating around town takes you longer. have a nice day!"
Same thing with bondings. I don't get why people seem intent to compare overpowered bonding with augments. Augments cost a fraction of what a bonding does. Bondings should be better. Are they too much better? That depends on who you're asking. But to compare bonding to augments is like comparing relic weapons to ensorcelled weapons. It was a progression the game made so if you don't like the overpowered bonding then don't use it. Regardless, this is again going to be a point of contention with people if they nerf them.
And lifesteal? I don't think this one blows things up like a SH boon or bonding nerf would. I mean, I already basically retired my main DPS toon after nerfs and an inability to queue up solo during the hours I prefer to play. So what's another stat being killed off matter.
Make other stats relevant. Too many players just go for all power or all crit. Characters should be balanced.
I like the idea of different variants of bondings. This would help balance player stats.
That said: I agree that because of the effort people have put into them, a complete "nerf" would probably be the wrong way to go. A look at what makes them so powerful (and an associated tweak) is necessary though.
What makes them overpowered (IMO) is:
- The stat on the stone is unaffected by the actual level of the player's unbonded stat (power only now, after recent changes). Three r12 bondings will give the player an additional 7k power - that's not even including the companion's gear.
- The bonding continues whether the Companion is alive or not.
- The %chance to proc the bonding is relatively high (considering the buff's power).
- In conjunction with #2, a dead companion revives at full health - meaning it's less likely to die before proccing the bond again.
So to "fix" the "must have" without nerfing them into oblivion, I would suggest:- Tweak Power's diminishing return (if it has one at all) - this will effect everyone equally. Bondings will still push you to higher levels than without, but those levels would become less necessary.
- Lengthen Companion near-death state so that the bonding expires shortly before a companion's rez. Again, this would effect everyone the same - a Companionless adventurer is less powerful whether or not they have bonding stones. A player could still revive a companion early maintaining the buff, or they could choose to live with the short duration buff loss.
- No real way to fix this without a direct nerf to the stone. The closest I could think of is to make them only proc off of a certain tier of Companion power (i.e. a white companion could never proc a r12 bonding because they don't know the skill yet).
- Companions should not revive at full health. A companion's death should be just as detrimental to the player as a party member's death is to the party.
All of the above are "indirect" nerfs to bondings but would affect every player equally (#3 excluded). Those with bondings might feel the pain a bit more, but if done properly they shouldn't be game-breakers.But now, those people already had their fun. I myself finally got one toon to 3xR12 with legendary companion a few months ago. This coming double-RP, my other three toons will have 3xR12 bonding with epic companions. And I did not spend a single dollar for my bonding. It was all grinding. I suspect most people getting their setup now is getting them more by grinding than by paying. So it won't hurt as much to nerf now, or soon. Or else it could be hard for them to introduce their next money making OP item whatever that will be.
IF you want a guildless player to get those boons Then here is my suggestion:
That guildless player to have similar requirements as the strongholds to be in line no more no less ( let it be on your own way with campaigns whatever you like)>
AND then earn a title : if I was in guild i would get that boon in 2 months not in 2 years.
Strongholds is one of the best addition in the game .
That would limit the capability of a single boon but we'd not lose from our total stat count - it could also lead to some interesting build adjustments.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
But it probably also would be way too much work required to establish a minimum of zones and gear at level 80.
They could increase the cap by 2 levels perhaps. That way old zones would still be usable.
But specifically bondings would still be a problem, since bondings value would just increase with better gear. They would have to be capped, or made diminishing returns.
I suspect they have something new they are planning on introducing. why would they nerf now? in the past nerfs along these lines are to make the new thing look better.
once something very expensive is introduced though it should never ever ever be nerfed. made obsolete by the new and shiney yes but not nerfed. goes for stronghold boons ESPECIALLY and bondings. bondings are individual millions but the strong hold boons are multimillions of blood sweat and tears. and the main reason we did it was for those danged boons. if they were 4k who'd have bothered? leave it alone.. just leave it.
and to the people saying bondings must be op because nothing else is acceptable. I disagree. it means nothing else has been presented to the player that works to clear current content. you do need bondings to be able comfortably clear higher level content. no one wants to spend hours in a dungeon. yeah you can build a elite party and probably still do ok but most people are not part of elite parties. and even those elite parties would struggle with out them.
I'm perfectly fine with them buffing up augments or making other runestones have better benefits. or augments that also proc bondings or something along those lines. introducing new stuff or buffing older stuff is a ok. but nerfing something like this once it's been in the game for this long is really not ok. it's like the key thing. that was not cool. they made nice for a little while and then reverted.
and then there was coal gate.. come on I know everyone remembers that. remember the people in pe giving away their stuff? remember how quiet things got? how quiet they stayed...
either of the two things mentioned would eclipse that in reality.
What you guys propose, to give you either "special" boons because you cant or wont be in a guild and you don't want to go the extra mile to team up and work and obtain it, or even ask to reduce the boons for the people that put the effort to get it, is just...
We worked, organized, had fun, had bad moments, got tired, planned events and got fed up but at the end we managed to build what we have but yeah just because you started now, or you are "anti-guild" or don't want to do the grind or whatever other reason, you should have it for free. Because a level 20 guild was created on its own or it was easy and its not the "result" of a year or more of hard work of a huge group of people. The gems, surplus, gold, ad, campaign currencies (to name a few) grow on trees and we didn't have to do anything. Shame on us Rank 20 (or any rank) guilds for farming to have what we have.
Well if we are to think like that, I don't want to do T9G so please put the best gears in MC or even in lvling dungeons. I don't have the time to go or build groups and do hard content and while we are at it make chests drop rank 12s too.... ain't nobody got time for this.
To the subject
On a maxed out char, bondings at best will give you 20k-25k power. Now assuming you have 40-50k (including guild boon) on your own char, you can get to a good 70-80k total. So bonding stones will give you 40% at best, more power.
Is this to much or not... up to debate.
On the other hand, a dc, a pally and a sw can give you what? The combined total of 280k power, at least that's what I think I saw at peek on me. So 25k+8k = 33k power from one side and 200k from the other... which is bigger?
Try this small test if you may:
Do a dungeon (even etos will do) without any kind of power sharing but with bonding 12s and guild boons enabled and keep a record of the time and min / max hits (and deaths :P)
Then do the same run with 1 or 2 or even 3 of the above classes and record again.
As a 3rd test remove bonding stones (and guild boons) and do the run again with above classes.
(not talking about the buffs, just the power share)
What do you think your results will be. I know mine... On my cw that I use the dancing shield and therefore my bonding stones proc defence my max power is 40k (with guild boon) and with 2 dc I'm getting to 140k. With pally in the mix 165k-170k. Pause for a second and think, from 40k SELF BUFFED to 170k... but yeah, bondings are the problem of the fast kills at the boss.
Not the power share
Not the multiplicative buffs
Not the interactions with self buffs and skills/items
Don't get me wrong I never did and never will call or ask for "nerfs" etc.Life is what it is and we get to play with whatever cards are dealt to us but when we are to examine a problem, we need to look at it from the right prospective. Bondings were created at an era that there were no powesharing from DC or paly or sw and same goes for loyal gears etc. With just them we are doing decent. The real problem for fast kills lays elsewhere.
Edit: I forgot to add the MAJOR problem/bug/glitch/exploit/undocumented feature call it whatever, that power sharing also affects companions which also gives as twice the buff through bondings...
1. I can trade back, or somehow get back the AD value of the bondings (or most of it). Yes, balance is expected in MMOs, buffs, nerfs, cost lost, but from expiriance, nothing here done in proportions or smoothly, everything is extremely heavy handed. And if someone thinks that loosing millions of AD over night, that took months to get, is a good idea, then sorry, and feel free to loose your AD and compensate my wallet.
2. Adaptation of dailies to the new realities. New zones are balanced for bondings in mind, without, it will take considerably more time to do dallies and progress in the campaigns. This should be adapted to maintain the as is "god save us from more grindy dailies" and not let it get to "kill me now, I'm not doing dailies".
3. Dungeons, raids, etc.. Here and unlike the dailies, I personally don't want difficulty adjustment, IMO, while some dungeons can / should be short others should be long and difficult. I don't see an issue of doing a dungeon for few hours. But (Yes a but again), the rewards should reflect this. And not in some peridots or r5.
Nerf power creep, no problem, nerf bondings, no problem, nerf classes, ok, make the runs difficult and long with some wipes and pug tears, great, but the reward should reflect this.
A bonding should transfer only base companion stats to the player and not the " buffed companion stats"
A tenser disk for example calculate only the base power of the player to boost it 10% no matter if the player got buff on his power.
p.s. I forgot also to mention the artificiers persuation give the 10% boosts to recovery ap gain movement based on buffed power and not base like the tenser disk and the protectors caramaderie(is a little of topic but it doesnt sounds normal).
Honestly what I fear is the usual Cryptic tactic. We remove one item or change it because reasons (nerf) to give to you back through another way but, you have to pay for it to be back to where you were. (Lostmouth procs vs enchant procs anyone?, Mod 6 change to injuries and Vip giving you immunity to said injuries? to name a few)
The reasoning of some players though... is beyond me.
So, a summoned Augment gives the same 100%, a second Augment in and active slots give another 80%, 3rd gives 40%, 4th gives 20%, 5th gives 10%, for a total of 250%, if the summoned has 3xdef slots to use Eldritch, then the total is 286%.
The individual player wold have to option to use less augments to get other active bonuses.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox