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[PvE] Paladin Guide by @greyjay1, @slappdaniel and @Its Viraaal

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  • slappdanielslappdaniel Posts: 76Member Arc User

    So I was planning to use combination of Brutal and Black Ice, but it turned out that's not enough to reach 100% crit. Currently using crit everywhere where I can including 5 SKT rings with crit except the shirt (I use Bloodstained instead of Warrior's Gemmed) plus additional two insignias of Skill (to keep CA bonus around 1k) and Relic Resto head. Being Human my ability score roll is lower (15 WIS, 24 CHA with campfire). But with 3 Brutals and 3 Azures on companion I'm at 96% crit without potions, Baphomet's Might and last EE boon put me over 100%. @slappdaniel does it make sense to push further with crit at this point with another Azure instead Brutal or just leave the remaining couple % for boons and potions?

    fill up the rest with potions and buffood.
  • thrilk#9892 thrilk Posts: 56Member Arc User
    I am not great with the maths. Can someone explain the Feytouch/Vorpal chart?

    A lot of you guys are super math wizzes. Some of us need a OP for Dummies version. More info on Feytouch vs Vorpal would be great.
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Posts: 120Member Arc User

    I am not great with the maths. Can someone explain the Feytouch/Vorpal chart?



    A lot of you guys are super math wizzes. Some of us need a OP for Dummies version. More info on Feytouch vs Vorpal would be great.

    Feytouched is a 18% dmg-buff which multiplies to your dmg-output dircetly, additionally they wpn-dmg component of fey deals roughly 3% of your overall dmg.

    Vorpal buffs 50% critical severity, this severity only affects critical hits, so it won't affect aura of courage.
    Critical strike severity and combat advantage are additive ( http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/combat-advantage scroll to the bottom ), that means the more critical strike severity and combat advantege you have, the less you will benefit from adding more in relation to what you already have (similar to power).

    The formula for relative dmg-increase looks like this: dmg_increase = (dmg_new/dmg_old) - 1

    The table in the Guide shows some scenarios with different critical strike severity, combat advantage, uptime of the fey-buff and aura of courage.

    It's meant to help on your decision between fey and vorpal, as you can see the performance of vorpal is strongly dependant on the uptime of combat advantage, the amount of dmg you get from AoC and the amount of critical severity you already have without vorpal.
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Posts: 372Member Arc User
    greyjay1 said:

    I am not great with the maths. Can someone explain the Feytouch/Vorpal chart?



    A lot of you guys are super math wizzes. Some of us need a OP for Dummies version. More info on Feytouch vs Vorpal would be great.

    Feytouched is a 18% dmg-buff which multiplies to your dmg-output dircetly, additionally they wpn-dmg component of fey deals roughly 3% of your overall dmg.

    Vorpal buffs 50% critical severity, this severity only affects critical hits, so it won't affect aura of courage.
    Critical strike severity and combat advantage are additive ( http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/combat-advantage scroll to the bottom ), that means the more critical strike severity and combat advantege you have, the less you will benefit from adding more in relation to what you already have (similar to power).

    The formula for relative dmg-increase looks like this: dmg_increase = (dmg_new/dmg_old) - 1

    The table in the Guide shows some scenarios with different critical strike severity, combat advantage, uptime of the fey-buff and aura of courage.

    It's meant to help on your decision between fey and vorpal, as you can see the performance of vorpal is strongly dependant on the uptime of combat advantage, the amount of dmg you get from AoC and the amount of critical severity you already have without vorpal.
    Have you guys tested Lightning how it compares to Vorpal and Feytouched depending on the content?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,980Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited June 2017

    greyjay1 said:

    I am not great with the maths. Can someone explain the Feytouch/Vorpal chart?



    A lot of you guys are super math wizzes. Some of us need a OP for Dummies version. More info on Feytouch vs Vorpal would be great.

    Feytouched is a 18% dmg-buff which multiplies to your dmg-output dircetly, additionally they wpn-dmg component of fey deals roughly 3% of your overall dmg.

    Vorpal buffs 50% critical severity, this severity only affects critical hits, so it won't affect aura of courage.
    Critical strike severity and combat advantage are additive ( http://janne.coreside.com/mechanics/combat-advantage scroll to the bottom ), that means the more critical strike severity and combat advantege you have, the less you will benefit from adding more in relation to what you already have (similar to power).

    The formula for relative dmg-increase looks like this: dmg_increase = (dmg_new/dmg_old) - 1

    The table in the Guide shows some scenarios with different critical strike severity, combat advantage, uptime of the fey-buff and aura of courage.

    It's meant to help on your decision between fey and vorpal, as you can see the performance of vorpal is strongly dependant on the uptime of combat advantage, the amount of dmg you get from AoC and the amount of critical severity you already have without vorpal.
    Have you guys tested Lightning how it compares to Vorpal and Feytouched depending on the content?
    Bah, Grace already covered how useful weapon enchants are for the OP. I don't know how much help I'd be in sharing my test results (note: I didn't bother checking with Aura of Courage and other stuff like that, my tests were a pure enchant to enchant on ability to ability).

    I assume you mean Lightning on AoE, since a lot of classes seem to benefit from Lightning on AoE. So, from what I tested:

    -Lightning sucks on Divine Judgement (because 1 proc versus dat ability coefficient).

    -Lightning is actually pretty good on Burning Light (but Burning Light deals meh damage all around and you won't have time to charge up all 9 BL procs).

    -Lightning on AoE is pretty nice on Templars, but tbh, if you're using Templar's, you're better off using Vorpal/Fey so you can get your multi-million TempHP and can mostly focus on dealing damage.

    --

    Grace, I'll probably ask you to look over my weapon enchant comparisons when I'm mostly finished, but if you (or Viral or Draco) would like to see what I've done right now, I wouldn't mind.

  • greyjay1greyjay1 Posts: 120Member Arc User
    @trzebiat#2067 lighting on climb-up and turtle http://imgur.com/a/6KPp5
    good for trash, far from viable for single target.
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Posts: 372Member Arc User
    @rjc9000 Yeah, I came to similar conclusions. But it's really hard to test on PS4 without ACT. I use Pure Vorpal but keep Trans Lightning on CW which works amazing there, and I used it on OP for things like Spellplague where there's a lot of trash (so can make a good use of BL) and I felt it was performing much better than Vorpal.

    I'm currently at 100% Crit, 47.1% CA, 87% Crit Sev (97% with Wild Storm, but I don't really use it nor other pots) and I have no idea if it's worth to change to Fey on not. The extra damage debuff on Fey and increased AoC damage sound nice (especially with stacking more HP from using Brigandine over Ward armor), but there's also an issue if two people use it and only the first one gets the damage buff (not sure if it's limited to the same rank or not) and the pink glow. My CW would really miss Lightning if I'd like to get Fey... @greyjay1 Thanks for the logs for Lightning, and considering boss fights are what really matters, it's a pass I suppose. I saw Viral and Draco are using Vorpal, do you also use it or Fey?
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Posts: 120Member Arc User
    I have both enchants, was pretty much always using fey, then switched to vorpal for a few weeks and am now back to fey. Subjectively spoken i don't feel any difference between these 2 enchants.
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Posts: 372Member Arc User
    So basically it just comes down to extra damage debuff on Fey? The difference in AoC damage between Vorpal and Fey isn't really that noticeable?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,980Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I have a fledgling DPS Paladin which is nowhere on par or near the likes of the build authors, but from what I can tell/have analyzed...

    If you like harder hitting immediate hits (Ie, bigger Divine Judgements, Templars, and Initial Smite hits), then Vorpal is yours.

    If you prefer an all around approach to your damage (ie, more Courage DPS, more Shielding Strike DPS, more Smite DPS), then Feytouched is the choice for you.

    Sacred Weapon, from what I tested (could be wrong/ignorant), sadly does not proc weapon enchants.

  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Posts: 372Member Arc User
    I've only tested Lesser Fey few months back on Dev and I remember only four encounter could proc it - Smite, TW, DT and RA. Not BL which is really bad (for Dev because of BL/Bond/Vow rotation), and Dev loadout is also a reason I'm keeping Lightning for damage on trash.

    If the overall damage is similar with both but Vorpal can give higher hits from DJ, Smite and TW for more Temp HP (who doesn't like that?), I'll stay with Vorpal. I wish there was preview server on consoles with easy access to Trans enchants for testing.
  • thrilk#9892 thrilk Posts: 56Member Arc User
    edited June 2017
    I guess the big issue for me is does Fey's damage debuff make up for the loss in temp HP I would get from not using Vorpal? Which offers better survivability?

    I am currently a 3.5k with a build based off of Draco's old build. I am wondering if I should sell my Perfect Vorpal and Trans Barkshield to buy a Trans Fey and Lesser Soulforge.

    I currently usually use CoP, TW and Smite as my encounters except in group content where I use BO instead of Smite for survivability. I would love to ditch BO. Would Fey's damage debuff increase my survivability enough. I am a 230k HP, 55%DR build. No fancy Lion mount. I use Con Artist as summoned. Fire Archon, Siege Master, Energon, Owlbear actives. Rust Monster if needed.

    Should I switch to Fey?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,980Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited June 2017

    I've only tested Lesser Fey few months back on Dev and I remember only four encounter could proc it - Smite, TW, DT and RA. Not BL which is really bad (for Dev because of BL/Bond/Vow rotation), and Dev loadout is also a reason I'm keeping Lightning for damage on trash.

    If the overall damage is similar with both but Vorpal can give higher hits from DJ, Smite and TW for more Temp HP (who doesn't like that?), I'll stay with Vorpal. I wish there was preview server on consoles with easy access to Trans enchants for testing.

    Burning Light procs Feytouched by however many times Burning Light hits for.

    I guess the big issue for me is does Fey's damage debuff make up for the loss in temp HP I would get from not using Vorpal? Which offers better survivability?



    I am currently a 3.5k with a build based off of Draco's old build. I am wondering if I should sell my Perfect Vorpal and Trans Barkshield to buy a Trans Fey and Lesser Soulforge.



    I currently usually use CoP, TW and Smite as my encounters except in group content where I use BO instead of Smite for survivability. I would love to ditch BO. Would Fey's damage debuff increase my survivability enough. I am a 230k HP, 55%DR build. No fancy Lion mount. I use Con Artist as summoned. Fire Archon, Siege Master, Energon, Owlbear actives. Rust Monster if needed.



    Should I switch to Fey?

    The extra TempHP will always trump the damage debuff.
    Sure, you could reduce enemy damage by ~28%. Or, you could just hit Templar's, get a free 1-3 million TempHP and rofl, because, at that point, you'd need to be hit by a full strength Call of Winter /Planar Prominence to die.

    As an aside note, I personally wouldn't swap to Fey if you have a good Vorpal. With some exceptions (ex: Burning Light max charge or Smite if you let all 5 DoT hits play out), the damage increase between Vorpal/Fey is so similar (you're only comparing a DPS increase difference of 1-5% most of the time) that you'd be paying 6-7 million AD for a few % more of DPS boost.

    Save the money and use it on more important matters, like ranking up bondings, ranking up brutals/radiants/azures, or acquiring a legendary lion mount (seriously, this thing is so dead useful as it effectively allows you to ignore Templar's and pick up extra offense without worry).

  • mrcaldaramrcaldara Posts: 3Member Arc User
    How did you get 47k power Before Bondings (Without Legendary Pet Bonus)? I cant get even close to that. Guild boon?
  • thrilk#9892 thrilk Posts: 56Member Arc User
    edited June 2017
    With Micheala's conclusions on Crit not affecting temp HP from TW, does this change anyone's opinion on Vorpal vs Fey.

    Does this bring other enchants back into the discussion?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,980Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited August 2017

    With Micheala's conclusions on Crit not affecting temp HP from TW, does this change anyone's opinion on Vorpal vs Fey.

    EDIT DERP

    Yes.

    If you're a Paladin focused soley on survival, you're going to want to go for Trans Feytouched, of which you'll want to proc the buff (edited) maybe a few Bane hits and then use your Templar's.

    Tbh, even on my notBiS-adin, it's pretty easy for me to get 1-3 mil TempHP and then adapt my loadout to swap in the best powers.
    Post edited by rjc9000 on

  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Posts: 372Member Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    With Micheala's conclusions on Crit not affecting temp HP from TW, does this change anyone's opinion on Vorpal vs Fey.

    Yes.

    If you're a Paladin focused soley on survival, you're going to want to go for Trans Feytouched, of which you'll want to proc the buff with a few at-will hits (should be easy with Radiant Strike as a capcloser) and then use your Templar's.
    At-wills don't proc Feytouched. Only encounters that target/hit enemy (excluding Vow).

    I'm not convinced to Fey when comparing to Vorpal. I hate the pink glow and I had no problems surviving fine with Vorpal before, and my playstyle is more about Sacred Weapon, Smite and Divine Judgement where Vorpal might be better. But it sucks on Dev unless using Smite. Fey is much better overall when also playing Dev and PvP.
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 304Member Arc User

    With Micheala's conclusions on Crit not affecting temp HP from TW, does this change anyone's opinion on Vorpal vs Fey.



    Does this bring other enchants back into the discussion?

    At the end of the day though, arn't paladins running vorpal already generating millions of temp HP? What's the effective difference between 3 and 3.5 million HP. I can't imagine fey being a better end game weapon enchant just because of extra temp HP.
  • trzebiat#2067 trzebiat Posts: 372Member Arc User
    dairyzeus said:

    With Micheala's conclusions on Crit not affecting temp HP from TW, does this change anyone's opinion on Vorpal vs Fey.



    Does this bring other enchants back into the discussion?

    At the end of the day though, arn't paladins running vorpal already generating millions of temp HP? What's the effective difference between 3 and 3.5 million HP. I can't imagine fey being a better end game weapon enchant just because of extra temp HP.
    I think the argument behind Fey over Vorpal (if someone can't afford to have both) will be if you also play PvP and use Dev loadout. Vorpal on Dev is bad unless using Smite and spamming Divine Judgement. Also Trans Fey will be the best investment for those at lower level without BiS gear and capped crit.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Posts: 3,807Member Arc User
    For me, I think Fey is a more tanking enchantment in that it increases your survivability and reduces enemy outgoing damage - both are aids to the party - Vorpal increases your damage & therefore threat. As to the question 'which is better' well I guess it depends on your goals.


    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR


  • thrilk#9892 thrilk Posts: 56Member Arc User
    edited June 2017
    armadeonx said:

    For me, I think Fey is a more tanking enchantment in that it increases your survivability and reduces enemy outgoing damage - both are aids to the party - Vorpal increases your damage & therefore threat. As to the question 'which is better' well I guess it depends on your goals.

    I think, for me, Fey would be better. I am 13.8k and pug a lot. I don't always have a powerful DC or a legendary lion to help keep me alive. When I reach BiS I think Vorpal would be better, but I need a little more survivability.

    But, to get a Fey I would have to sell my Pure Vorpal and my Trans Barkshield. And I really like the Barkshield. So it looks like I will have to save for a while.

  • greyjay1greyjay1 Posts: 120Member Arc User
    The document has been updated to mod12, not much changed.

    In summary:
    - Debuff-rework => Bane is useful in longer boss-fights (30 sec+)
    - Tamed Velciraptor is a new companion-option
    - Primal-armor + Rex Corona/ Guise of the Wolfclan is BiS outside of skt-content
    - The Primal-Glove bonus applies to and as Base-Power, this includes the Power gained via HP-mechanic, must-have
    - NEW boons: 3/3 Power + HP
    - The Resistance-Ignored Cap is at 85%: Demonic (3 stats: arp>power=crit) or Savage (2 stats: arp=crit) enchantments are decent choices on pets
  • michela123michela123 Posts: 257Member Arc User
    @greyjay1 They also fixed Divine Protector's mitigation with a recent patch.
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Posts: 120Member Arc User
    @michela123 Oh that's great, thx :)
  • rubytruerubytrue Posts: 433Member Arc User
    edited August 2017
    Any idea how the upcoming changes to enchantments and bonding stones will affect this build?

    https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1234031/refining-refinement
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,980Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    It would be easier to count the number of builds which AREN'T affected by the change.

  • rubytruerubytrue Posts: 433Member Arc User
    Someone has already bought up the Owlbear Cubs on the AH....what is left is now 2x the price it was a couple of hours ago. I have a feeling it will go a lot higher.
  • thuzkawthuzkaw Posts: 18Member Arc User
    Going by 12b changes the bullette pup might be another option 3 x empowered = 96k hp, 3 x defensive gear slots with rads in them = 24k hp for a total of 120k hp from companion. Going full hp build where possible you could be hitting 450k hp, before TW.
  • slappdanielslappdaniel Posts: 76Member Arc User
    thuzkaw said:

    Going by 12b changes the bullette pup might be another option 3 x empowered = 96k hp, 3 x defensive gear slots with rads in them = 24k hp for a total of 120k hp from companion. Going full hp build where possible you could be hitting 450k hp, before TW.

    sounds like a interesting idea. i already bought some augment companions (just in case). gonna test out stuff when the changes go life on preview. 96k hit points from 3 x empowered sounds nice. but keep in mind 3000 power from 3x radiant is probably still better than 12000hp. so still go for companion gear with 1 or 2 offensive slots. but we will have to see what they really do i guess.
  • thuzkawthuzkaw Posts: 18Member Arc User
    Stat value is something I look at. Generally 1k power = 4K hp, so 3k power is only worth 12k hp. Even though power does a lot more, I feel overall it can't compete with the huge gain from hp. Regardless I eagerly await you're tests even if half the time it goes over my head lol.
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