feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
edited August 2016
I don't think piercing damage should have anything to do with tenacity. It's either piercing or it isn't. It seems like less piering damage is what would be appropriate, but after that we still have a lot of work left unfinished on this class (fixing animations for forest ghost, boar charge and gushing wound, making oak skin healing actually be relevant post-mod 6, make at-wills worthwhile for all feat paths, improve bear trap's aoe to make it useful, and so on). Tenacity and all the calculations that go with it, such as truly weird things like armor penetration resistance (why not just have less armor pen...?) will only screw it up again. The idea of PB being pre-mitigation damage in pvp and post-mitigation in pve makes the most sense out of anything here. I haven't been able to test it enough in pvp to make a suggestion as to how much it ought to be reduced (if at all).
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Piercing Damage is too much trouble to balance. Just revert the PB changes and improve the encounters needed(damage and CD tweaks/fix boar charge) and give Combat a movement buff, tweak Flurry to be more pvp friendly(not activate Flurry on encounter use, just add a charge of Flurry, activate on at-will use).
the damage cap for piercing blades needs to be there mostly for the group fights where you get buffed, but that doesn't mean you will perform less, while you fight alone the damage will give you variations between 1-10.000 , while fightin in a group and you benefit over the buffs you will have higher variations that are close to 10.000 rather than having them be close to 1.
If they add damage caps, they need to add them for everyone. Including GWFs. No more super-high IBS hits.
You ok with that?
ok i hope you realize that what i said is a far better solution than what it was presented so far?
other suggestions, that aren't mine were:
1. make PB be 25% 2. revert PB back to be post-mitigation 3. PB is finet, it's the powers damage that triggers them, nerf : PG , BH
THESE were ALL suggestions from Hunter Ranger Players that i read so far, i don't think they are entirely bad suggestions, but i think my suggestions is way better .
but since i was the only guy that used words such as LIMIT, this KEYWORD for some of you got TRIGGERED by this and about the messenger who wrote, therefor all these attacks towards the class i am playin'.
So to understand how this goes we ALL admited that with the recent patch note Piercing Blades is too much , so you tell me what i said will make Piercing Blades be less effective than other 3 suggestions that were mentioned?
i belive it will not make it less effective than the 3 suggestions, and actually will have some resonable damage, and also it LEAVES MORE ROOM for the encounters/powers to be BUFFED, while leaving PB still be 50% of the premitigation.
Understood ?
LE: im not goin to reply further, becus this goes in and out, im done.. if you understood or not its ur choice, have fun.
I just want to point out that you posted all of this in response to a question...and never actually answered the question.
Xbox Pathfinder 100% PVE just a few questions as this thread is really taxing to read through
1) AoTP fixed at rank 4 ? 2) CoA fixed to crit over 50' 3) Will there be a summary of the final changes posted somewhere ? 4) Can I expect some retraining tokens as I cannot test changes ? 5) Any burst damage for Pathfinder (was going to say improvement but you need some in the first place to improve )
Thanks in advance
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thatsmeaswellMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 60Arc User
1) yes 2) dont know 3) yes, probably the release notes for m10 4) yes, you can expect 1 and only 1 free respec token on live (at least this has been the case in the past) 5) well, yes, aimed shot for itself provides some burst damage and a self buffed hawkshot seems to be quite impressive, at least when specd to full archer
PB is definitely too strong in PVP and its kinda the thing that brought the nerf hammer on Combat HR back in mod5, let's be reasonable if this goes through to live there will a lot of QQ in PVP forums which will lead to an other nerf sweep. it would be better for everyone to have it balanced before M10 is released. Like many HRs here i think the best options are :
- making it half effective in PVP. (the most logical ) - Reverting it to its previous stat and adding a little compensation for PVPers like 25% RI bonus.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Piercing blades....they pierce so it seems very reasonable the total and complete ignore of resistance but many people claim that it will be too much, i personal dont think, many classes have ways to defend themselves, but i've sorted 1 thing out related to a sugestion i gave before.
In the current state of LS and if it keeps this way in the future, many little hits will make the ls change closer to a real percentage of ls stolen, wich promotes survival, the very base of combat HR, so my proposal is do the very same thing that as been done with anvil of doom in GF.
Feedback: piercing blades Piercing blades will not deal instantaneous 40% aditional damage as piercing damage imediatly instead will deal 10% aditional piercing damage each second for 4 seconds.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Feedback: piercing blades Piercing blades will not deal instantaneous 40% aditional damage as piercing damage imediatly instead will deal 10% aditional piercing damage each second for 4 seconds.
Just when combat was becoming good for PVE, people start suggesting things like this trying to stuff it back in the grave.
Just revert it for the sake of PVE where the majority of players are. Tweak flurry and some encounters so it's at least usable for the pvp minority.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Piercing blades....they pierce so it seems very reasonable the total and complete ignore of resistance but many people claim that it will be too much, i personal dont think, many classes have ways to defend themselves, but i've sorted 1 thing out related to a sugestion i gave before.
In the current state of LS and if it keeps this way in the future, many little hits will make the ls change closer to a real percentage of ls stolen, wich promotes survival, the very base of combat HR, so my proposal is do the very same thing that as been done with anvil of doom in GF.
Feedback: piercing blades Piercing blades will not deal instantaneous 40% aditional damage as piercing damage imediatly instead will deal 10% aditional piercing damage each second for 4 seconds.
what you mean is 40% damage for 4seconds = 40% / 4s = 10% per second. By your suggestion this will make Piercing Blades have a ICD of 4s , until another procc can be triggered.
so i still think i gave a better suggestion one page previously.
No, i didn't mention anithing about a ICD, PB can be applied by stacks, simply that, now it has no ICD as far as i know so it would be spread what is now imediate into 4 seconds so it can be avoided, healed.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Feedback: piercing blades Piercing blades will not deal instantaneous 40% aditional damage as piercing damage imediatly instead will deal 10% aditional piercing damage each second for 4 seconds.
Just when combat was becoming good for PVE, people start suggesting things like this trying to stuff it back in the grave.
Just revert it for the sake of PVE where the majority of players are. Tweak flurry and some encounters so it's at least usable for the pvp minority.
Back to the grave? So did conqueror GF get sent back to the grave in pve? 4 seconds in a regular run it's not that bad, now in a speed run whith great buffs it starts to show a bit worse, just there.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Feedback: piercing blades Piercing blades will not deal instantaneous 40% aditional damage as piercing damage imediatly instead will deal 10% aditional piercing damage each second for 4 seconds.
Just when combat was becoming good for PVE, people start suggesting things like this trying to stuff it back in the grave.
Just revert it for the sake of PVE where the majority of players are. Tweak flurry and some encounters so it's at least usable for the pvp minority.
Back to the grave? So did conqueror GF get sent back to the grave in pve? 4 seconds in a regular run it's not that bad, now in a speed run whith great buffs it starts to show a bit worse, just there.
PB is a large chunk of combat's damage. Turning that into a DoT will destroy it. GF isn't affected obviously because the powers most actually use for PVE/solo WEREN'T nerfed....
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
@metalldjt a ICD will block the power/feat/whatever to trigger for a certain amount of time, that was not what i was mentioning and the spread of PB over 4 seconds is not a ICD it's a DoT effect. Survivor's blessings now that is a ICD. And yes i wish to start 2 dots at the same time if the damages were dealt at the same time, not with a ICD.
See things from this point of view now in mimic: Plant growth(i dont know if pg has 4 or 5 dots but you get the point): Second 1: Base damage deals 0(lets supose it's 0) PB deals 10 000; Second 2: Base damage deals 0 PB deals 10 000; Second 3 Base damage deals 0 PB deals 10 000; Second 4 base damage 0, PB 10000;
Applied over 4 seconds(i assumed PG = 4 dots): Second 1: base damage 0, PB damage 2500 Second 2: base damage 0, PB damage 5000 Second 3: base damage 0; PB damage 7500 Second 4 base damage 0, PB damage 10000 Second 5 base damage 0, PB damage 7500; Second 6 base damage 0, PB damage 5000; Second 7 base damage 0, PB damage 2500;
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Feedback: piercing blades Piercing blades will not deal instantaneous 40% aditional damage as piercing damage imediatly instead will deal 10% aditional piercing damage each second for 4 seconds.
Just when combat was becoming good for PVE, people start suggesting things like this trying to stuff it back in the grave.
Just revert it for the sake of PVE where the majority of players are. Tweak flurry and some encounters so it's at least usable for the pvp minority.
Back to the grave? So did conqueror GF get sent back to the grave in pve? 4 seconds in a regular run it's not that bad, now in a speed run whith great buffs it starts to show a bit worse, just there.
PB is a large chunk of combat's damage. Turning that into a DoT will destroy it. GF isn't affected obviously because the powers most actually use for PVE/solo WEREN'T nerfed....
I know it's a "large chunk" but currently PVE dps of combat is perfect, so making pb dot would lower your dps 10% at most, combat needs other fixes that will improve overall performance like: -Speed, combat is as slow as a turtle now; -Flurry leghtned but toned down so it can be almost granted. -Powers corrections like thorn ward slow as hell animation. Rain of swords....too slow. Split strike: much worse than CtG. Boar charge low dps, locks you into place when executed, Blade storm really low value in single target(between 1 and 2 %). Bear trap, useless damage and useage.
IM waiting on Amenars comments on pb is it acting as intended if so were done and all the non hr here can go home. We have so many pages of speculation when we just need to wait for a response. I personally like combat to have some pep and if you don't play a Hr then you are just speculating then only then will I comment further on this.
Amenar is seasoned on play so wait for him to post he will
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
IM waiting on Amenars comments on pb is it acting as intended if so were done and all the non hr here can go home. We have so many pages of speculation when we just need to wait for a response. I personally like combat to have some pep and if you don't play a Hr then you are just speculating then only then will I comment further on this.
Amenar is seasoned on play so wait for him to post he will
There was a reason why PB was changed back then...
Piercing damage is even more OP now due to all the defenses/tenacity players can pile up, only to be ignored.
Just revert the changes. Buff encounters, fix boar charge. Then give combat a speed buff on it's tree. Lastly, make Flurry activate on at-will use, gain a charge of Flurry on encounter use, stacking up to 3 times.
With all that and the high deflect/wild medicine I would think it would be good enough for pvp usage.
Very simple situation for Combat HR on live server in PvP. GF vs Combat HR - Daily, Bull's charge, Anvil = HR is dead. Moreover 3+ IL GF has got almost 60% of DR and 68% of Arpen Reduction from tenacity. If you suggest to revert PB to do post-mitigating damage How much arpen you need to win this battle?? My combat HR 3.4 IL has 124% of arpen and its not enough. Oh! I've forgotten about self-healing.. Without PB Combat HR will never win GF. GWF vs Combat HR - almost the same situation as for GF's. Most of GWF's wear T. Negation Enchantment it gives them additional 30% of DR. Lack of control for combat and fire as the resukt of this duel. Oh! I've forgotten about self-healing.. CW vs Combat HR - Their shield and Smolder (It's bugged. Smolder can double its damage in some situations), and T. Negation Enchantment and fast encounters will send you to the fire after a bit longer duel than with GF's and GWF's. Oh! I've forgotten about self-healing.. TR vs Combat HR - Yeah! We can beat them! Just keep Fox up and stamina for their SE daily. Don't forget about 60% deflection at least. Oh! I've forgotten about self-healing.. And invisibility. SW vs Combat HR - If you see good geared SW in Domination be ready for their immortality. Too much LS and DoT's from them. But yes we can keep our az alive. And ones again self-healing. Combat HR against DC and Paladin - You'll fight for ages. 3+ il pvp players have fantastic self-healing from drowned guns, wheel of element, recovery and boons. If you are a 2.5 il Combat HR and you fight against pre-made group or random 3+ il guys than ask the devs "whats wrong with matchmaking?" The main problem of Combat is lack of damage and cc. Piercing Damage is very good feat for combatter but PB should be fixed to weapon damage (blades) or reduced to 30%. And no PB for crits at all.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited August 2016
So....suposing PB in a reasonable group would miss 20% of the damage trough the course of a dungeon:
It would definitively not be game breaking. 1 note while in biggrin making these logs i went down to 10 to 20% hp and i had no healing going on (ok, ok i admit i didn't go for wilds medicine), so a dot would be very andy, im not trying to force the idea but this could actually be a pvp and pve solution.
Post edited by treesclimber on
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
@metalldjt a ICD will block the power/feat/whatever to trigger for a certain amount of time, that was not what i was mentioning and the spread of PB over 4 seconds is not a ICD it's a DoT effect. Survivor's blessings now that is a ICD. And yes i wish to start 2 dots at the same time if the damages were dealt at the same time, not with a ICD.
See things from this point of view now in mimic: Plant growth(i dont know if pg has 4 or 5 dots but you get the point): Second 1: Base damage deals 0(lets supose it's 0) PB deals 10 000; Second 2: Base damage deals 0 PB deals 10 000; Second 3 Base damage deals 0 PB deals 10 000; Second 4 base damage 0, PB 10000;
Applied over 4 seconds(i assumed PG = 4 dots): Second 1: base damage 0, PB damage 2500 Second 2: base damage 0, PB damage 5000 Second 3: base damage 0; PB damage 7500 Second 4 base damage 0, PB damage 10000 Second 5 base damage 0, PB damage 7500; Second 6 base damage 0, PB damage 5000; Second 7 base damage 0, PB damage 2500;
in a 3 minutes fight that i had against a HR , he procced PB for 450 times if you x 4 it will 1800 proccs in 180s.
So? they will simply be much smaller and delayed from the original atack allowing you to do somwthing about it.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
@metalldjt broken stuff such as? The new boons say very clearly, not affected by dots, so i dont see a problem there, client problems with HR are caused (on live server) by Slasher's mark and carefull attack only, if Fury SW comes out of this balance well, combat HR will be baby exercise, just to give you a notion of what im taking about i stack creeping death over 50 times with SS spam, 50 dots on the same target.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Enough of piercing damage for the love of hell. TR will be set in line soon enough after all those months of crying about it. Next we'll have more classes crying for piercing damage if this goes through.
Just revert PB, rename PB like they were GOING to do, buff encounters, tweak flurry. All that's going to happen is we're going to have a bunch of crybabies whining about the piercing damage along with dealing with 80% deflect HRs.
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
Those piercing blades HRs in the past were just brutal, they ate half of your HP bar (30K-40k then) in a couple of hits, HRs were the most hated class in pvp as now GFs/TRs, cant believe devs are going to bring this again.
Combat HR was then erased from pvp when the piercing damage and wilds medicine were nerfed, if i remember it right.
Shadowy opportunity (piercing damage) was hitting for 12k with buffs, then it was fixed cuz TRs were melting ppl with Cloud of steel, same will happen with PB.
Dont ask for buffs that you know will end in a miserable nerf for your class later.
Comments
1) AoTP fixed at rank 4 ?
2) CoA fixed to crit over 50'
3) Will there be a summary of the final changes posted somewhere ?
4) Can I expect some retraining tokens as I cannot test changes ?
5) Any burst damage for Pathfinder (was going to say improvement but you need some in the first place to improve )
Thanks in advance
2) dont know
3) yes, probably the release notes for m10
4) yes, you can expect 1 and only 1 free respec token on live (at least this has been the case in the past)
5) well, yes, aimed shot for itself provides some burst damage and a self buffed hawkshot seems to be quite impressive, at least when specd to full archer
- making it half effective in PVP. (the most logical )
- Reverting it to its previous stat and adding a little compensation for PVPers like 25% RI bonus.
In the current state of LS and if it keeps this way in the future, many little hits will make the ls change closer to a real percentage of ls stolen, wich promotes survival, the very base of combat HR, so my proposal is do the very same thing that as been done with anvil of doom in GF.
Feedback: piercing blades
Piercing blades will not deal instantaneous 40% aditional damage as piercing damage imediatly instead will deal 10% aditional piercing damage each second for 4 seconds.
Just revert it for the sake of PVE where the majority of players are. Tweak flurry and some encounters so it's at least usable for the pvp minority.
See things from this point of view now in mimic: Plant growth(i dont know if pg has 4 or 5 dots but you get the point):
Second 1: Base damage deals 0(lets supose it's 0) PB deals 10 000;
Second 2: Base damage deals 0 PB deals 10 000;
Second 3 Base damage deals 0 PB deals 10 000;
Second 4 base damage 0, PB 10000;
Applied over 4 seconds(i assumed PG = 4 dots):
Second 1: base damage 0, PB damage 2500
Second 2: base damage 0, PB damage 5000
Second 3: base damage 0; PB damage 7500
Second 4 base damage 0, PB damage 10000
Second 5 base damage 0, PB damage 7500;
Second 6 base damage 0, PB damage 5000;
Second 7 base damage 0, PB damage 2500;
-Speed, combat is as slow as a turtle now;
-Flurry leghtned but toned down so it can be almost granted.
-Powers corrections like thorn ward slow as hell animation. Rain of swords....too slow. Split strike: much worse than CtG. Boar charge low dps, locks you into place when executed, Blade storm really low value in single target(between 1 and 2 %). Bear trap, useless damage and useage.
Amenar is seasoned on play so wait for him to post he will
Piercing damage is even more OP now due to all the defenses/tenacity players can pile up, only to be ignored.
Just revert the changes. Buff encounters, fix boar charge. Then give combat a speed buff on it's tree. Lastly, make Flurry activate on at-will use, gain a charge of Flurry on encounter use, stacking up to 3 times.
With all that and the high deflect/wild medicine I would think it would be good enough for pvp usage.
GF vs Combat HR - Daily, Bull's charge, Anvil = HR is dead. Moreover 3+ IL GF has got almost 60% of DR and 68% of Arpen Reduction from tenacity. If you suggest to revert PB to do post-mitigating damage How much arpen you need to win this battle?? My combat HR 3.4 IL has 124% of arpen and its not enough. Oh! I've forgotten about self-healing.. Without PB Combat HR will never win GF.
GWF vs Combat HR - almost the same situation as for GF's. Most of GWF's wear T. Negation Enchantment it gives them additional 30% of DR. Lack of control for combat and fire as the resukt of this duel. Oh! I've forgotten about self-healing..
CW vs Combat HR - Their shield and Smolder (It's bugged. Smolder can double its damage in some situations), and T. Negation Enchantment and fast encounters will send you to the fire after a bit longer duel than with GF's and GWF's. Oh! I've forgotten about self-healing..
TR vs Combat HR - Yeah! We can beat them! Just keep Fox up and stamina for their SE daily. Don't forget about 60% deflection at least. Oh! I've forgotten about self-healing.. And invisibility.
SW vs Combat HR - If you see good geared SW in Domination be ready for their immortality. Too much LS and DoT's from them. But yes we can keep our az alive. And ones again self-healing.
Combat HR against DC and Paladin - You'll fight for ages.
3+ il pvp players have fantastic self-healing from drowned guns, wheel of element, recovery and boons.
If you are a 2.5 il Combat HR and you fight against pre-made group or random 3+ il guys than ask the devs "whats wrong with matchmaking?"
The main problem of Combat is lack of damage and cc. Piercing Damage is very good feat for combatter but PB should be fixed to weapon damage (blades) or reduced to 30%. And no PB for crits at all.
It would definitively not be game breaking.
1 note while in biggrin making these logs i went down to 10 to 20% hp and i had no healing going on (ok, ok i admit i didn't go for wilds medicine), so a dot would be very andy, im not trying to force the idea but this could actually be a pvp and pve solution.
Enough of piercing damage for the love of hell. TR will be set in line soon enough after all those months of crying about it. Next we'll have more classes crying for piercing damage if this goes through.
Just revert PB, rename PB like they were GOING to do, buff encounters, tweak flurry. All that's going to happen is we're going to have a bunch of crybabies whining about the piercing damage along with dealing with 80% deflect HRs.
Combat HR was then erased from pvp when the piercing damage and wilds medicine were nerfed, if i remember it right.
Shadowy opportunity (piercing damage) was hitting for 12k with buffs, then it was fixed cuz TRs were melting ppl with Cloud of steel, same will happen with PB.
Dont ask for buffs that you know will end in a miserable nerf for your class later.