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Return of the Old Dungeons - Leveling, but not Epic.

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  • blazious11blazious11 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 331 Arc User
    Even better, you wont be able to enter without a Tank and healer? So, we have to wait an hour until they both come around? Even in elol? lol
    My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
  • boltzmann42boltzmann42 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 46 Arc User
    This is incredibly disappointing, more power creep and ridiculous content ? who is the genius that came up with such an idea ? The epic CN which is at the same difficulty as present dungeon don't make it up for it
    asterdahl said:


    Naturally on any given project, there are only so many resources, so if we spend time going back to re-master an old dungeon, that's time that can't be spent making new things.

    While there's certainly a possibility that some of these dungeons might receive an epic dungeon treatment at some point, keep in mind that we'll be continuing to build new things as well.

    If those "new" things TRIVIALIZE the old AND new content I don't want it. What most of the playerbase want is more content and no (or very little) power creep.
    Monsieur Seekan, Guild leader - Légende Obscure
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  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    With the amount of double XP events we are getting why the hell would we want new leveling dungeons that provide even more XP? The leveling process from 1-60 is fine and did not need to be sped up. I am already skipping this double XP event because I want to enjoy the leveling experience, not skip 3/4 of the zones to keep up with the difficulty and level to 60 in 2 days. We had enough content to keep us busy before 60 FFS. We need more lvl 70 content and not just one neutered CN.
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Castle Never and the Maze Engine campaign are the pieces of content that we are targeting at endgame players this module, with the former being a new tier 2 dungeon, on the same difficulty level of the Epic Dungeon version of Cragmire and Temple of the Spider, albeit with new challenges and mechanics to overcome, and some new rewards to obtain.

    And here lies the problem. Level 60 content ala Maze Engine campaign is NOT end-game content. Max lvl is 70 last time I checked, which is the audience you SHOULD be targeting. Seriously devs, play your own game for once and get a clue.
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    I would take the time to comment, but anything in depth that I write will likely result in me getting an infraction. This is a very poor decision.

    @asterdahl @terramak @strumslinger you do realise that those of us who are most active in this game and community find the current endgame to be like this:
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1211567/speedrunning-etos
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1211113/pve-too-easy-the-traven-speedkill-challenge/p1
    and this upcoming mod does nothing to resolve this, it doesn't add more challenging content and in fact only makes things even easier. Next mod will be the mod I solo t2's.
  • mirlegrismirlegris Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    It's too late , the game population is too low to be profitable with their business model now, this game is dead in occident.

    3 years, 10 mods, and game over.
  • bwowmpbwowmp Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 81 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    asterdahl said:

    I understand the confusion, the top section addresses dungeons that are returning to the game. The bottom section is sort of a state-of-the-game about dungeons, which examines the difference between dungeons and epic dungeons, in reference to what is there, and things coming in Module 9 like Castle Never, which is an epic dungeon.

    I also noted that unfortunately that the image of Frozen Heart and Gray Wolf's Den were swapped between the Dungeon and Epic Dungeon headers. This was an unfortunate mix up that Strumslinger has already gone ahead and fixed up. Apologies for any confusion that image may have caused.

    Here comes my standard wall-o-text. If you don't have five minutes, stop now.

    asterdahl

    You may or may not be surprised to find that we know that developers don't call all the shots, that you work with limited resources, and that you can each only address one thing at a time. Many of us have positions IRL with similar demands and dynamics, and we realize that you are merely human. Many of us understand the nature of developers workinging for Cryptic, which works for PWE, etc.

    That said...poor communication and failure to provide what customers want and/or need are hallmarks of a business doomed to fail. I know this, as I own a business, and our customer service is razor-focused toward preventing customer attrition and loss of revenue.

    I play this game, probably more than I should, as my "escape" from reality, and from the demands of steering the aforementioned ship. And now that I have found a great guild, I play for the fellowship to be had both there and with my kooky friends from PvP. And I can relate this with all honesty...I have found NO ONE who is happy with the state of the game as it currently stands. Not one. Single. Person. People are bored. I am a mature player, and this is the first MMO I have played since the original NW back in the day on AOL. I didn't spend a dime on gaming back then, nor in the intervening years, but I have spent money on this game. Because I really like it. I have invested well over a year in developing a character, and recently started my first alt. I am quite loathe to leave all of this behind. But, man...it's getting old.

    I came into this, and still operate as probably 50/50 PvP/PvE.

    PvP has been broken beyond imagination for a long time now. Bad matchmaking, exploits, silly rings, etc. But hey guys. PVP PLAYERS SPEND A LOT OF MONEY! And If you read the PvP section of the forums, you will find that balancing issues, queuing issues, matchmaking issues and the like have been in the fore of the players minds for a long time now. And have been roundly ignored. So now your PvP playerbase is vanishing. And your PvPers (WHO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY), are leaving in droves. Gauntlgrym used to pop consistently within 5 minutes of queuing just a few months ago. Now it is a wasteland. Tumbleweeds. Crickets.

    PvE. Do I really need to address it? The vast majority of players in this game, both hardcore and casual, gear their experience around PvE. I don't have your numbers, but I would wager significant revenue comes from those who reach level 70. I watched the lockbox-opening-orgy on black Friday, and many of the names I saw in orange are names I have seen around for months and are established players. I bought 10,000 zen myself for that event. I am one of your steady paying customers. And the dynamic toward us, as I see it, has been to remove PvE players' favorite content (dungeons), release new modules which introduce non-dungeon content (modules 6,7,8 anyone), and fail to re-install original dungeon content which PLAYERS HAVE BEEN SCREAMING FOR. This is Dungeons and Dragons. Not Whatever-We-Throw-At-You and Dragons.

    Who buys your Zen? Sure...the in-and-out player may spend 50 bucks before he gets bored and moves on to another game, but we long-timers are the base of your revenue stream. We are the one who respond to your call on Facebook to go and upvote NWN on the MMOGames poll (have you seen the number of votes there for NWN versus other games?). We are the ones who coddle the new players and help them stay interested in a game which often and largely ignores our requests. Why? Because you have a great product. But you are letting it rot on the shelf.

    Your hands may be tied on this as a developer. But pass this up the chain. Ask someone sitting behind a desk who doesn't know coding from the hill of beans which they are counting at the time to have a read.

    It's simply standard business practice, which Cryptic/PWE somehow seems to ignore...take good care of your long-term customers, and your business will thrive. Change with the times, and take their requests to heart. Listen to their feedback, and act nimbly and effectively to meet their needs. This is how any successful business must operate to survive over time.

    Look at these forums. I know you see them, and so do others there. Nobody is asking that Cryptic/PWE address every gripe that emerges. But the things that have been dominant themes here on these forums for months or years, and are consistently ignored? Just fix them.

    How about instead of releasing a new module, having the company take a break to invest time and resources in improving the product you have? What you are doing now is the equivalent of installing shiny new wheels and waxing the paint on a vehicle which is losing engine compression and soon will stall, perhaps never to run again.

    This game is beautiful, loads of fun and quite well-engineered at its core, but the engine in this vehicle has been ignored for too long in favor of the accessories. You keep slapping on new chrome, and all the while, the sputtering and clanking noises are getting louder.

    We, the playerbase, (especially the core, long-term players) are your customers. We are the water in the glass from which your company drinks its sustenance. But the glass has been left in the sun, and we are evaporating. Slowly but surely, we all are leaving, or will leave. When we do this is totally in your hands. We all want to stay. But keep alienating us, and we will inevitably go...probably sooner than we would like.

    Is that glass half full now, or is it half-empty? I would still say it is half full. But given the current trajectory of game development and consistent pattern of disregarding overwhelming player feedback, I would warrant that well before it is anticipated, this glass will be empty and gathering dust.

    As always, I hope for better.
  • kaenkirakaenkira Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    Wow, this might just be the last straw that will cause my and my partner to completely abandon this sinking ship.
    We'll go back to games that have actual loot and real dungeons, not kiddie playgrounds with candies as a reward.
  • sabre10sabre10 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    What can i really say that hasn't already been said so eloquently. Perhaps how I feel on hearing this news.

    I feel disappointed and I feel deceived. Having read the dev blog that stated:

    "Epic Dungeons are available once you reach level 70. These are either revisited versions of regular dungeons or new end-game-only dungeons. These are considerably harder than your basic 3-person dungeons, with additional requirements."

    That paragraph suggested to me that Epic Dungeons (Pleural) are coming back. This is reinforced by the by the last sentence saying that these (Pleural again!) are harder that your basic 3-person dungeons!

    I don't really think this is a case of symantics and whilst I remember a Dev commenting on having their words thrown back at them, please understand that i feel someone here has done a bait and switch on us.
    I feel mislead!


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    Civil Anarchy Officer
    Fabled Alliance
  • fuglymookfuglymook Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    Yeah, I am pretty much done waiting for new lvl 70 content. The misleading post is bad form...... No new class to even think about taking advantage of bringing back OLD dungeons. Great time for new players, more disappointment for everyone else! Time to look elsewhere.
    Post edited by fuglymook on
  • vida44vida44 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 667 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    sabre10 said:

    What can i really say that hasn't already been said so eloquently. Perhaps how I feel on hearing this news.

    I feel disappointed and I feel deceived. Having read the dev blog that stated:

    "Epic Dungeons are available once you reach level 70. These are either revisited versions of regular dungeons or new end-game-only dungeons. These are considerably harder than your basic 3-person dungeons, with additional requirements."

    That paragraph suggested to me that Epic Dungeons (Pleural) are coming back. This is reinforced by the by the last sentence saying that these (Pleural again!) are harder that your basic 3-person dungeons!

    I don't really think this is a case of symantics and whilst I remember a Dev commenting on having their words thrown back at them, please understand that i feel someone here has done a bait and switch on us.
    I feel mislead!


    I re-read the blog over and over again. And also noticed that they were talking in plural, yet nothing is being introduced in that manner.

    I also feel disappointed and deceived.
  • rottersrotters Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    my fellow Guild mates from Civil Anarchy are right. Please do not ignore the end game well geared player, we are your player base. We asked for a challenge and you made the game easier by buffing our mounts.

    From a professional who completes personal development plans for colleagues...you have so far not met your core standards as mods and devs. I would like your seniors to have a voice on these forums not just people with excuses.

    Tab

    Tabatha@rotters // Scourge Warlock // Co Leader // Civil Anarchy



    Part of the -Fabled- Alliance



    We are looking for non elitist guilds to join our alliance.
  • drkbodhidrkbodhi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
    Here is the funny thing the new content is so ridiculously simple and not even worth releasing. I ran the entire campaign and I could have run it naked and still finished.

    I remember way back when you guys doubted our words when we told you that Traven was too hard. You ignored us when we said that there was an ArPen bug that destroyed the whole party. I know there are a lot of devs who play the game and hide in plain slight. I know that you like to have the pot stirred... yet you have no concept of what is going on in the game.

    Time to go back to the drawing board and come up with something better. Keep your fricking dungeons... until you give us what we asked for and we were promised. Your lies and double-talk will not serve you where you have no believers. We want to believe you but we know you have lied and dragged your feet when you got caught. Remove the comment all you want. I SPEAK THE TRUTH as always​​
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  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    And to think.. all they have to do is fix the Foundry.. add assets (like options for bosses).. make the editor more powerful.. increase rewards for players..
    Yeah, but 90% of Foundries are HAMSTER!
    So don't play them. Or continue to grind out the same 5 areas and the same 3 dungeons that you've been grinding for the past year.

    So have such a powerful tool for "infinite content" just kind of fade away is... incomprehensible to me.
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  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    The dev blog post is very misleading and I think it is deliberately so. The whole idea behind it was to hype up the people playing the game who saw it and for them to share it with players they know who have quit. It is written with the implication that the dungeons will be returning at both epic and non epic and at no point does it definitively say that the returning dungeons will not have a non epic version. Furthermore, a few threads (which I have noticed have mysteriously disappeared from the forums now) were opened up before this testing thread clarified this where people showed how pleased they were with the return of epic dungeons, as it was obvious that this was what the player base believed, you should have corrected the misbelief...

    Quite simply put, this is false advertising and predatory market tactics at work, that entire blog post should either be rewritten, or taken down.
  • drkbodhidrkbodhi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,378 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    To take Fab's comments another step... further.

    Don't show someone something unless it is ready to go... and it is something that they are looking for. You guys strive to be UPOD, yet you over-achieve and deliver OPUD.

    UPOD... Under Promise Over Deliver
    OPUD... Over Promise Under Deliver

    If this game was not initially phenomenal... it and Cryptic would have gone bankrupt already. How do I know that... I have opened successful businesses and restaurants... I have opened unsuccessful businesses and restaurants. So I know what works and I know what wont work.
    Offering substandard follow thru after you delivered an amazing product... disrespects the initial offering.

    I always wanted to believe that Cryptic was really desiring to be a successful business.

    To put is like this... in the 80's, one of the Big 3 said they had the most amazing vehicle that would be coming out in the future. They puffed it up and pushed the K-car like it was the best vehicle since the invention of the wheel. It was one of the worst vehicles to ever be released by a car company. The issue is that this car company thought they knew what the people were looking for... and they were wrong.
    This is about market research... research what your market wants and offer something in a subdued manner and knock their socks off when it comes out.​​
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    Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
    Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
    SYNERGY Alliance
  • baeyornbaeyorn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 146 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    -- sigh --

    was so very exicited to see "dungeons" coming back..

    was so very exicted to see them as 3 man leveling dungeons, as it was sorely needed..

    was so DISAPPOINTED to see that only CN would be the new epic run. No new 5 man epics. I hate running T2's now. Have run ETOS, EGWD, and ECC ad nauseum. Have run EDemo enough times to glomm twisted main hand. not sure I grind it more to get the offhand.

    My apologies, but the plans for the new dungeons stinketh, from the perspective of an endgame player.

    Again, my apologies for being a bit blunt.

    :)




  • gankdalf#8991 gankdalf Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 930 Arc User

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    and what do you precisely think to accomplish with that?
    not like i dont agree but these are their plans for mod 9 and its kinda late to change anything.
  • aimeesellersaimeesellers Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 342 Arc User
    The results are already very telling... and very predictable. It shows just how out of touch the devs are with the player base.

    A'Mie Stormshield (GF) / A'Mie Stormshard (CW)
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  • freshourfreshour Member Posts: 623 Arc User
    Did anyone else notice that a dev just said in mod 6 they tried to take roles out of dungeons? Well you released a Pally so that is exactly how you do that. But you must realize you cannot put roles in a dungeon while that class is in its current stage. Better players will not take them for some fun. But you can't make a dungeon difficult when everyone has 100% immunity.

    - You removed our dungeons for like a year.... and brought them back as leveling 3 mans? what player base said to do this?

    - You said if they spend all their time fixing old mistakes, they can't work on new content ....

    WE DONT WANT NEW CONTENT. If you would once and for all fix all of the bugs in the old content. Granted it might take more than a full mod to do so. Your game would be multitudes better. The more you guys force out new content like CN without any player feedback, the more you will get 85-88% negative feedback. I mean the only testing we got for CN was alpha and you didn't change anything. You said all these dungeons are coming in an announcement and no one said as leveling dungeons. We know you said that to avoid a rage, but now it is out and you guys really need to explain yourselves.

    Please... As one of the few vets left in this game. Why have you guys stopped listening to the players? Why would you admit to not working on broken things so you can push out new content? Why would you in any right mind at all think that releasing our old favorites as leveling dungeons would satisfy anyone at all? Tiamat, sure.... Epic demo, sure.... They aren't the dungeons that built this game. They are zergs.... The first dungeons released required teamwork, strategy, no Oathbound immunity button, and healers who could heal, tanks to tank, and everyone else better dodge or they are dead. It wasn't all one shots, so healers could actually heal. We had sets to stack together like high viz, high general, war prophets, you name it. But... we had like 4k power.. and 24k hp lol... so the power creep/grap wasn't as insanely huge as it is now.

    - I know I say a lot of sarcastic things. But if you guys truly do not want to lose this game you are going to have to listen to the players here. over 85% of the population wants the old CN back. Literally copy/paste it in and increase levels caps to some insanely high level and make no dailies usable or no OP's allowed in it and you officially have the hardest dungeon back in the game. People didn't quit when they couldn't do a dungeon, they worked harder to learn how. You are all afraid if you fix OP's to where their binding oath works as intended, or divine protector can't build up AP during its active time that people will leave. No, they will use a GF who has to get his daily up and use KV when he needs it and actually takes some skill. They will adapt. Not being able to win doesn't make people quit. It makes them learn how. Give us a challenge.... G

    Lastly, just give the players what they want. We have seen what you want. And mod 6-8 have been some of the most disappointing mods to date, with more players leaving than ever before nearly entirely do to dev decisions and poor communication. I'm sure a lot of the bridges are burned, but if you guys just listened to us ONCE, you could bring a lot of them back.
  • andorrabellandorrabell Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 437 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    This is correct, Caverns of Karrundax, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower and the Lair of the Pirate King (Returning as "Vault of the Pirate King") will only be available as 3 man dungeons for now. That being said, those dungeons, along with all other dungeons will be getting an significant EXP bonus that is granted upon completion. Making them excellent ways to level new characters or earn power points. In addition we're overhauling how seals work before endgame, unifying and simplifying them and adding more useful repeatable purchases to make with those seals.

    Castle Never and the Maze Engine campaign are the pieces of content that we are targeting at endgame players this module, with the former being a new tier 2 dungeon, on the same difficulty level of the Epic Dungeon version of Cragmire and Temple of the Spider, albeit with new challenges and mechanics to overcome, and some new rewards to obtain.

    Creating an Epic Dungeon version of an existing dungeon is certainly a somewhat easier task from an environment art perspective than making an entirely new dungeon, but there is still a lot of design work, as well as effects, animation, character art and testing that go into remaking a dungeon into a new endgame experience. Naturally on any given project, there are only so many resources, so if we spend time going back to re-master an old dungeon, that's time that can't be spent making new things.

    While there's certainly a possibility that some of these dungeons might receive an epic dungeon treatment at some point, keep in mind that we'll be continuing to build new things as well.

    EPIC FAIL.
  • andorrabellandorrabell Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    drkbodhi said:

    This may kill the game right here.



    Empty promises and the continuation of highly ambiguous and misleading statements in the blogs. Why bring something out, if you know full well that it is not what we asked for and what you promised would be delivered soon? We asked FOR EPIC CONTENT... not leveling content.



    Keep the little kid dungeons and just give us the fricking stables and CN. Don't waste our time and your time by releasing this concept.



    THIS GAME STARTS at 70. It does not start when you land on the beach. The beach and the pre-70 content is foreplay. Granted I like a lot of foreplay... but eventually you need to enjoy the fruits of your labors.​​

    This. I never ever did "leveling dungeons" when leveling. Why are you remaking content that will not be used when we need things to do at level 70.
  • andorrabellandorrabell Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 437 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    Can you please explain the reasoning for the developer team deciding to make the dungeons leveling difficulty instead of endgame content? ​​


    As far as why we chose to bring some of these dungeons back as leveling dungeons. With Module 9 we're introducing a big EXP bonus to leveling dungeons, to give new players and those leveling alts an alternate path of advancement, and really improve everyone's experience when leveling.
    DERP- now people can get to stagnating at 70 even faster! Yall know how incredibly fast it is to level toons in this game already, right?

  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    All I can say is that I am greatly ashamed to play to know I am associated with, by virtue of playing the game, the kind of people who whine and moan over nothing.

    -"WAAA!!! we want to get stronger and have harder content!" Cryptic releases a higher level cap to allow for stronger monsters and skrims/dungeons.
    -"WAAA!!! Getting to 70 and end game is too hard!" Cryptic releases Underdark which gives people the Dwarven King storyline to fill in some of the gap, and drow armor, which is easy to get, and is some of the best armor in the game.
    -"WAAA!!! the 60-70 grind is still to much we hate having to do vigilance quests still!" Cryptic makes the 60-70 grind even easier with the upcoming Maze Engine module.
    -"WAAA!!! CRYPTIC DOESN'T CARE ABOUT US AND ISN'T LISTENING TO WHAT WE WANT!!!!" despite the fact everything from module 6-9 has been about doing what lots of people asked for.

    To be honest, you people are abominable, and make the infamously whiny Star Trek Online crowd look tame by comparison. If any of you think what Cryptic is doing is bad, or going to kill the game, you should go take a look at other MMOs, they are FAR FAR worse, by miles.
  • silinvhinegurusilinvhineguru Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    ^ This exactly. Devs dont care and are completely out of touch it seems. Guess its time to find a new game. :(
  • lirithiellirithiel Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,482 Arc User

    All I can say is that I am greatly ashamed to play to know I am associated with, by virtue of playing the game, the kind of people who whine and moan over nothing.

    -"WAAA!!! we want to get stronger and have harder content!" Cryptic releases a higher level cap to allow for stronger monsters and skrims/dungeons.
    -"WAAA!!! Getting to 70 and end game is too hard!" Cryptic releases Underdark which gives people the Dwarven King storyline to fill in some of the gap, and drow armor, which is easy to get, and is some of the best armor in the game.
    -"WAAA!!! the 60-70 grind is still to much we hate having to do vigilance quests still!" Cryptic makes the 60-70 grind even easier with the upcoming Maze Engine module.
    -"WAAA!!! CRYPTIC DOESN'T CARE ABOUT US AND ISN'T LISTENING TO WHAT WE WANT!!!!" despite the fact everything from module 6-9 has been about doing what lots of people asked for.

    To be honest, you people are abominable, and make the infamously whiny Star Trek Online crowd look tame by comparison. If any of you think what Cryptic is doing is bad, or going to kill the game, you should go take a look at other MMOs, they are FAR FAR worse, by miles.

    I don't even...
    Our pain is self chosen.

    The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
  • katbozejziemikatbozejziemi Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 856 Arc User

    This is totally unacceptable. We have been waiting for MONTHS for the return of these dungeons... being told they were being reworked to fit into the new power structure.

    Maybe they were back when mod 6 came out, but now the "power structure" has fallen apart once again to a state even more unbalanced than at the end of mod 5, despite the whole point of changing the stat curves and everything else was to prevent that in the future, so... yeah.

    Anyway, based on the Karrundax we have now, even as leveling dungeon it seems really underpowered and a complete faceroll, unless maybe you get the worst possible party composition with all green gear.
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