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Stronghold - Rewards

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  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    juleadream wrote: »
    Please, please, please PLEASE...... after this, NO MORE - NO MORE - new artifact main/offhand. I would like, JUST ONCE, to actually get my mainhand to legendary before I am forced to replace it. Twice now I have gotten into the high 40s on my main (actually closing in on 50 currently) only to learn that the next module will make that weapon obsolete. NO MORE. Please. I (and no doubt 100% of the playerbase) beg you.

    I just wish they would have PVE weapons that are "farmable" that are 'on par' with the BIS weapons. Maybe it would be equal in ALL aspects (2 offensive slots, stats, damage etc) however the artifact equipment would have its "artifact bonuses" which still make it BIS by FAR but allows more casual players to still have a FAIR chance with the BIS farmable version.
  • sobacsobac Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 434 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Actually, I'm OK with new main and off-hands. I have more than 1 toon, so I just try to lvl up to 35/epic all artifacts first and then, if I have more RP and want to spend them, I do. It's a must for me because, RP wise, 1 legend = 8 epics. They (devs) just need to stop telling us that the new stuff will last more than 1 module, easy as that. Want a new shiny weapon? Craft it/refine the old. Not? Stay with your old one, it's not 100% required for new module, but can help a bit.

    Just an example with epic Elemental Fire Greataxe for GWF and new Stronghold Claymore (both lvl 35)

    Changes if equipped:

    +96 damage (~5.1% gain comparing to old one)
    +402 power (~9.2% gain)
    +180 critical (~32.5 gain)
    +733 recovery (100% gain, no recovery in old one)
    -553 deflection (100% loss, no deflection in new one)

    So, aside from damage stat, you have 1315 (gain) and 553 (loss) points. Total gain: 762 points. Not bad.

    This is another comparison between actual arti main hand (epic, lvl 35 vs legend, lvl 60)

    +106 damage
    +388 power
    +162 critical
    +162 deflection
    (and of course, +1 offensive slot)
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    Are we going to end up sinking around 50-100 mill AD into a stronghold to let us buy gear only to get it replaced next mod?
  • osterdracheosterdrache Member Posts: 480 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    No more progression loss for artifact equipment! Period. And pls dont use the argument, that the stats of purple new item are better than the stats on the legendary old one. Progression on items that need refining is NOT MEASURED IN STATS, ITS MEASURED IN INVESTED RP.

    With these ripoffs of our work we invested into our weapons again and again you will loose alot of paying costumers.
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    Are we able to get the new artifact wep's without salvaging our current ones. we we will loose a ton of RP compared to waiting for 2x
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    reds351 wrote: »
    Are we going to end up sinking around 50-100 mill AD into a stronghold to let us buy gear only to get it replaced next mod?

    Upgrading a guild Stronghold is a long term investment, and I want to respond not only to this particular concern, but many other similar concerns.

    We know that a lot of you are worrying that your investment in Strongholds won't be worthwhile, because your equipment will be replaced in Module 8. I can say definitively, that we are not raising the item level cap with Module 8. There will be new equipment, but we're not planning on increasing the item level over 142, which is the item level you can achieve by upgrading Lionsmane and Dragonflight equipment in Strongholds.

    Both best in slot sets are long term investments, while you'll be able to see them right from the start of the module, keep in mind that they won't be something you'll be able to obtain right away. You won't be replacing elven, burning or even alliance equipment at the start of Module 7.
    quspiv wrote: »
    I dont think using old currencies for new items is good idea... New mod should be more of a reset thing for the armor and weapons.

    On the topic of older currencies, we will be easing the restrictions on Seals of the Protector with Module 7. With the addition of Stronghold boons making the content easier, it should be significantly less taxing to obtain the seals you need for either the Elven set or the new Dragonflight set.

    Module 6 was a reset across the board, which is part and parcel to a level cap raise. However, from module to module we won't be doing any hard resets on equipment. That's not to say we will continue raising the item level ceiling and creating a bigger and bigger gap between new and casual players, and the hardcore.

    If you're a hardcore player with best in slot, you'll have an easier time challenging the new content, that's your reward for conquering the toughest challenges in the previous module. We'll continue to offer new rewards for more casual players, like the "Guild" equipment in Strongholds, but more than that, we plan to continue easing restrictions on older content.

    With those changes, content that might have been out of reach before will be conquerable. Please continue to send your feedback in regards to content difficulty, we are listening.
    reds351 wrote: »
    Are we able to get the new artifact wep's without salvaging our current ones. we we will loose a ton of RP compared to waiting for 2x

    You don't have to salvage your current artifact weapon to obtain a new one, it's an option, but if you simply want to start with a new green artifact weapon, that option certainly exists. The current implementation of the Artifact Reforging feature on preview actually made it there by mistake. The NPC was present for internal playtesting, it was cleaned up but that clean up did not make it into the build that went to preview.

    Even more so than usual with features you see on preview, what you see is not necessarily the final implementation. That being said, the silver lining in this is that we're getting a lot of your feedback on the core idea of being able to trade in your artifact weapons for an upgrade, and we're taking that all that feedback into account.

    In the end, the system we want to provide is one that lets you carry your hard work forward, while opening up more exciting options for weapons. We'll continue to work towards that goal.
    skitzopyro wrote: »
    Dropped weapons can be replaced in a few months but not Farmed weapons...

    I touched on this a little above in regards to armor, but it is even more applicable to the new artifact weapons: these won't be something you can obtain right at the start of Module 7. In fact, it will be closer to Module 8 before anyone will be able to start picking up the new Strongholds artifacts, so bear in mind that by the time you've switched your elemental evil artifact weapon out for a Strongholds artifact, it will have been half a year or more.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I am still worried that the very small guilds, say with less than 10 different accounts, are not even going to be able to get to the point of being able to get their guild to level 7 even before Mod8 is released. Some of them may not even get it until well after Mod8 or closer to Mod9. I know it is fine balance of making it either too fast to acquire by larger guilds, or able to be acquired by the smaller guilds. I just hope there will be something in place to compensate for the size of the guilds, like lesser requirements for the smaller ones, etc.

    And, yes, with those size guilds there is probably very little chance of them being able complete any of the dragonflight HEs anyway. So this is why there needs to be another method to get the shards, besides just the HEs.
  • helpimblindinrlhelpimblindinrl Member Posts: 972 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    I think at present talk of long term investments is just going to get lols out of people. If that's annoying we aren't the ones who poisoned that well.

    If you want to do something for the new players you need to reduce the gear gap. To do that you have to make refinement points easier and gmops cheaper. Let me elaborate.

    My guild gets new players fairly often because the guild comes from a community outside of the game and we have no gear restrictions for invites. We see a pretty clear and repeating pattern. The new players get to max level, get their basic purple armour pieces from being run through dungeons and they start running the campaigns. Then they figure out where the real progression wall is. Its getting artifacts, artifact equipment and enchants up.

    You guys actually made this much worse in mod 6. In mod 5 a rank 7 had 60% the stat points of a rank 10, in mod 6 a rank 7 is 26% of what a rank 12 can do. 40% of the the stats are in the 11&12 ranks. You basically made rank 9 or 10s the new 7s. Its not like they got cheaper but making ad got significantly harder. I'm not sure how you think a fresh account is going to get to BIS or close to it in a non joke length of time and then we all know the goalposts are going to shift again. You might think to yourself well they can spend money to make it take less time but you should do the math on what that would actually look like and have a think about it. And that's easy compared to upgrading your artifact gear.

    So when the new people take a pause in chugging along and actually see the wall they then quickly realise they won't climb it, ever. And in the vast majority they stop logging in because they know they are always going to be behind and they are just getting carried by the stronger players and its not because they are bad at the game or have a bad build. I can be kind of calm about it when I'm not disgusted with it after someone leaves because I'm on the good side of the gear wall but I can tell you for a fact the people who leave are not cool about it and go out of their way to warn other people about cryptic games in general.

    Maybe you guys have enough churn to not care about player retention and bad word of mouth.

    And if anyone says anything about only small differences a lot of marginal differences added up add up to a lot.

    Post edited by helpimblindinrl on
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    asterdahl wrote: »
    I touched on this a little above in regards to armor, but it is even more applicable to the new artifact weapons: these won't be something you can obtain right at the start of Module 7. In fact, it will be closer to Module 8 before anyone will be able to start picking up the new Strongholds artifacts, so bear in mind that by the time you've switched your elemental evil artifact weapon out for a Strongholds artifact, it will have been half a year or more.

    I think you are over estimating how long it will take some Guilds to unlock this stuff and start using it. I expect it will start appearing within a couple of weeks at the outside once this goes live unless you move this content well outside the reach of casual gamers.

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  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    asterdahl wrote: »
    I touched on this a little above in regards to armor, but it is even more applicable to the new artifact weapons: these won't be something you can obtain right at the start of Module 7. In fact, it will be closer to Module 8 before anyone will be able to start picking up the new Strongholds artifacts, so bear in mind that by the time you've switched your elemental evil artifact weapon out for a Strongholds artifact, it will have been half a year or more.

    I think you are over estimating how long it will take some Guilds to unlock this stuff and start using it. I expect it will start appearing within a couple of weeks at the outside once this goes live unless you move this content well outside the reach of casual gamers.
    It's time limited by lumber and food that are made at set rates (depending on building level) but it still is a hard cap on how long things will take regardless of guild size.
  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    I am still worried that the very small guilds, say with less than 10 different accounts, are not even going to be able to get to the point of being able to get their guild to level 7 even before Mod8 is released. Some of them may not even get it until well after Mod8 or closer to Mod9. I know it is fine balance of making it either too fast to acquire by larger guilds, or able to be acquired by the smaller guilds. I just hope there will be something in place to compensate for the size of the guilds, like lesser requirements for the smaller ones, etc.

    And, yes, with those size guilds there is probably very little chance of them being able complete any of the dragonflight HEs anyway. So this is why there needs to be another method to get the shards, besides just the HEs.

    It's not a race. Just do what you can with what you have, and most importantly, enjoy the game time while you're building/exploring/grinding/whatever.

    That's what we're going to do.

    So many people are so focused on being the biggest and the best. Really? You want to hit the top of everything? Then what? Be bored with the game? Leave that to the wallet warriors. The rest of us will slug along and have fun doing it.
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    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    I don't want to hit the top I just want to not be 1 shot by archers/anything that looks at me in ECC.
  • cjh1983cjh1983 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 229 Arc User
    ayroux wrote: »
    asterdahl,

    Thanks for writing this. Hopefully you will see what I write here.

    Feedback on PVE armors:
    I think separating PVE and PVP armors is a BIG mistake to continue. Hear me out please. I have been playing since "module 0" aka Beta. ALL players used to have to run all the PVE content for the BIS pvp gear. With Tenacity introduced there has been a "wall" erected that has permanently separated PVE players from PVP players. The CLOSEST to "removing" this wall we have seen was including tenacity on black ice gear module 3. Guess what happened when the best gear for BOTH PVE and PVP was black ice gear? EVERYONE ran the new content.

    As a PVP primarily player, I actually MISS the days of running dungeons. I actaully WANT to run the new PVE content and have a reason for playing this content but why? The main reason I play is PVP focused and PVE gear cant help you at all in PVP.

    For this reason I am STRONGLY STRONGLY advocating for a removal of tenacity as a STAT on gear and increasing the "BASE" "PVP resistances" to be 40%. This removes it as a stat to stack and opens up ALL gear types to be used in PVP. If a player wants to now use this new "PVE armor" in PVP go for it! Its viable! I think this will get MORE PVE players running PVP content (Strongholds) as well as more PVP players farming this new PVE gear because the gear ise useful in BOTH game types.

    I made a thread specifically about this. I really hope you guys remove tenacity as a STAT from gear and just give all players a "base" equal to the ideal target tenacity % you want players to have (which seems to be about 40-42%). This removes the MASSIVE gear divide that will forever split your player base into two camps. Everytime you make content you have to make DOUBLE the content to give each player the "same" amount. When a PVP map comes out, PVE players complain because they dont care, when a new dungeon comes out PVP players complain because they dont care. Removing this "divide" make it MORE enjoyable and makes more players willing to PLAY the content because they dont need to "redo" their character for PVP or PVE, they can use the same gear, same setup etc.

    Here is the thread for more details"
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1194706/feedback-strongholds-participation-time-to-remove-tenacity-as-a-stat

    I agree. Although i feel the pvp gear should still have some small advantage over pve gear, maybe slightly more hp or something
  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    reds351 wrote: »
    I don't want to hit the top I just want to not be 1 shot by archers/anything that looks at me in ECC.

    I hear that.
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    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • balthezar2balthezar2 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 151 Arc User
    I'm with you instynctive, I've been playing since day one, and none of my toons have any BiS anything, heck, the only thing I have that's orange is the shield maiden I upgraded, and I know that it will take me a long time to get half of what SH has to offer since I am the only one in my guild that's still active, but I always have and always will have fun, even those times when I do get one-shotted, multiple times. I just pick myself up, dust myself off, use another injury kit, and get right back at it. It's a game, nothing more, meant to be enjoyed, not get stressed out because I can't get the best of everything, or even close to it, today, or tomorrow, or even in six months.
  • quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    Please don't lock new PvP gear behind harsh requirements. PvP is already very unbalanced as it is and last we need is new / casual players not being able to get new sets in reasonable time frame. BIS players have huge advantage from all the broken OP Transcendent enchants and rank 12 enchantments.

    Im mostly concerned that new players wont be able to max Tenacity stat fast enough to not get 2-3 shoted all the time.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    asterdahl wrote: »
    Keep in mind that no content is balanced with legendary artifact weapons in mind. I know that this is an area that has been poorly communicated, but if the understanding is that artifact weapons will eventually be replaced, you can choose whether or not those final ranks of upgrades are worthwhile to you.

    (Quote is not from this thread but one of the closed ones)

    Effectively, don't bother making legendary artifact equipment unless you're ok with wasting all that RP, because the item *will be* replaced.

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  • samothrace22samothrace22 Member Posts: 359 Arc User
    asterdahl wrote: »
    We know that a lot of you are worrying that your investment in Strongholds won't be worthwhile, because your equipment will be replaced in Module 8. I can say definitively, that we are not raising the item level cap with Module 8. There will be new equipment, but we're not planning on increasing the item level over 142, which is the item level you can achieve by upgrading Lionsmane and Dragonflight equipment in Strongholds.
    Do I spy set bonuses?
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  • azlanfoxazlanfox Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    asterdahl wrote: »
    Keep in mind that no content is balanced with legendary artifact weapons in mind. I know that this is an area that has been poorly communicated, but if the understanding is that artifact weapons will eventually be replaced, you can choose whether or not those final ranks of upgrades are worthwhile to you.

    (Quote is not from this thread but one of the closed ones)

    Effectively, don't bother making legendary artifact equipment unless you're ok with wasting all that RP, because the item *will be* replaced.

    One of my concerns is if the content is "balanced" with all the classes in mind? By that I mean the content is playtested using every single class or just popular ones? What kind of ilvl is being used?

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  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,404 Arc User
    Trust me, that is what I am going to do too. Just do what I can and what happens, happens. So long as I can at least get the ilevel 125 armors I will be happy, as they are still an upgrade to what most of characters have, other than my two main. Those will just be a slight upgrade from the black ice armor, but with more useful stat distribution. Just have to ignore the larger HEs and not worry about the dragons, as they will never appear anyway, with only 1 person on the map at a time.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    azlanfox wrote: »
    One of my concerns is if the content is "balanced" with all the classes in mind?

    Absolutely. Many members of the development team commonly play more than one class, especially those on our QA team (many of whom play all of our classes) who are instrumental to our testing when balancing content. That's not to say that every class is on equal footing for every piece of content, but it's something we're always trying to keep an eye on.
    azlanfox wrote: »
    What kind of ilvl is being used?

    That varies from content to content. For instance, heroic encounters on the Stronghold map and the Dragonflight event are balanced around very different item levels. Most content is balanced around a range of item levels, though we have a minimum expected item level that we believe a piece of content can be cleared at. For queued content, this is usually the requirement to enter.

  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    Then at least Everyone would have a Written Understanding instead of only the Developers having an understanding that hasn't been adequately communicated to the Player base.​​

    I absolutely agree, this is something that has been poorly communicated on our end, and we'd like to make an official blog post about this in the not too distant future. As mentioned previously, the featured made it to preview a little earlier than intended, so we're still ironing out the details, but expect a blog post on this.

  • quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    Does rewards include any kind of bonus npc for the Stronghold? or it's just player related items?

    In orginal Neverwinter Nights 2 players had access to Crossroad Keep, where they could choose between build "X" or "Y" building (not both) with different bonuses. There were also various defender forces (after player finished missions for those races) and lot's of upgrades for npc weapons and armors.

    What do i like to see is Stronghold having it's own life instead of being just a boring castle. Give players option to send the npc guards from the castle to patrol surrounding areas for various benefits (like in NwN2). Like random mission "X" to help protecting farmers from Orcs with various outcome scenarios. Having access to unique defending forces could also be nice, though you've to balance them carefuly due to PvP.

    Also small cosmetic rewards please. Can we get some kind of guild "tag" image after reaching specific guild lvl? What i mean is a small image near player name which guild leader can set (it should look similar to this: https://lineage2privateserver.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/l2nostalgia-low-rates-are-better.jpg)

    This would allow players to unite on more than just a guild name and Cryptic could make some $ by selling some nice looking images in ZEN store. (images dont give any advantages in game, so players would complain less about P2W).
  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    Strongbox could be problematic if is coming from lock boxes or zen store think it should be added to bazar market instead connecting it with zens, atm we need zens for to many things
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    So what is the plan with gear for mod 8? Will it be totally independent from the stronghold content or will we still have to have a high level stronghold for it?

    A lot of us want to know this as a stronghold is A HUGE AD SINK and if that gear is only going to get replaced 3-4 months from now we sunk all that AD for nothing.
  • helpimblindinrlhelpimblindinrl Member Posts: 972 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    asterdahl wrote:

    That varies from content to content. For instance, heroic encounters on the Stronghold map and the Dragonflight event are balanced around very different item levels. Most content is balanced around a range of item levels, though we have a minimum expected item level that we believe a piece of content can be cleared at. For queued content, this is usually the requirement to enter.

    This won't be even the 100th time someone has made this comment but it might be the first time time someone was able to say no it was intended to be cleared with gear of that level.

    Lets see you guys clear ecc with 2k item level party. Since you have so many people playing the game it should be no big deal for you right?
  • adent086adent086 Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    Checking in real quick, at work and goofing off, so don't have long. ;)

    Ok. So rewards. Finally got a chance to look around strongholds out on preview..... and any of the few people out there who have seen many of my other posts will know: I am normally pretty hard on the devs with my constructive criticism. I am that way on purpose. Honestly, for their own good. It's a tough market, and they need to hear things straight up so they can make changes in their bad behavior, and in the end, keep their jobs. ;)

    But, rewards. Ok. Looked around out there and liked most of what I saw. I know devs. Don't fall over in shock, ok. Adent086 actually said he "liked" something you did. ;) But, honestly, it looks pretty good; from what we can see. A lot of the details are hidden in that we can't really start building significantly yet..... don't know the final level of effort it is going to take.... yadda-yadda... etc. etc. It looks bad as far as long term effort is concerned. But, we kinda knew it was going to be... so.... at least not unexpected there. The big glaring thing that WASN'T nice was the excessive exclusionary nature of the content itself, but I covered that elsewhere in a different thread.

    But, finally, rewards: Two things NEED to happen with this mod; and I do mean NEED to happen. Double seals events are a nice gesture; but it won't be enough or often enough. Not in the quantities and how often you guys are setting us up for needing them. Frankly, the grind with dungeons is already out of control and pushing some of us to want to gnaw off our own limbs rather than run them again. Seriously. No joke. My arms have teeth marks.

    There needs to be a way to convert Guild Marks DIRECTLY into both Elemental and Protector Seals. Even if the ratio is high, it needs to happen. Even if it happens through a building that we add on AFTER the level 125 gear marketplace so there is no "getting stuff quicker" issues. This NEEDS to HAPPEN.

    Second, Power Crystals of ALL flavors need to drop from mobs in the zone. Especially from the HEs. I LOVE the fact that the treasures drop from the mobs, but the Power Crystals need to drop too. Otherwise certain aspects of the game become "gates" that guilds HAVE to do or loose out. And no one wants that; especially when one of those potential gates is "dungeons" which some of us are already about to loose limbs from due to excessive gnaw-age. Seriously though: Power Shards. Loot drop from mobs. Make it happen please.

    Alright, have to go, but I'll check in later with some of my "not so nice" observations. But, fortunately, those don't belong in this thread. ;)

    Peace all.
    Telling us about upcoming content updates, and getting those updates out the door BUG-FREE, is *AWESOME*!! Know what's even *MORE* awesome? Fixing game breaking bugs (and/or undocumented "features") that have been in EXISTING content for months/years!!! Guess which one makes me want to spend money on a game much more than the other? Hint: It's the "more awesome" one.
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